Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Figured out Phase while listening to STYX ?

Since I've had my axioms now for about 3-4 months, one thing that I've tried to figure out is Phase on my EP350. I've switched it from 0 to 180 on various CD's and DVD movies and really could not see much differance.

Fast forward to tonight.....the wife took the kids to Walmart, so I got out some of my old CD's. Came across my STYX Greatest Hits CD the was Digitally Remastered back in the mid 90's by Dennis Deyoung, this is an awesome CD by the way, and I think I finally found my Phase choice.

First of all, I bumped up the level on my receiver for the sub from -2db to 0db, but the sub volume on about 12 o'clock, put the receiver on about -25db and started the song Renegade.

"Oh momma I can hear you a callin, your so scared and all alone." THUMP THUMP-THUMP The sub was on 0 Phase, and I thought, hey I can hear the Sub, this would be a good song to try a Phase switch test. So I hit back on my DVD remote to the beginning, ran behind the sub real quick and flipped it up to 180, and again...

"Oh momma I can hear you a callin, your so scared and all alone."
THUMP THUMP-THUMP

It totally rocked, I ended up listening to the whole cd at about -15db and it was truelly amazing sound....

Anybody want to comment on either the CD or my Phase journey?

Randy

I have that cd, Mr robato with volume set to "loud" is pretty satisfying

Only question is whether you were standing in the same spot, preferably ears at the same height for thump thump thump and THUMP THUMP THUMP.

If so, smile & be happy, your phase journey is probably complete. I guess it's possible that this could be the right phase setting for just that one particular frequency but I don't *think* it works that way.

If not... um... smile and be happy, you got to spend the afternoon listening to great music on a great system, and you still have the phase journey ahead of you

[EDIT] One other thing to remember -- you probably won't hear any difference flipping the phase switch while you are standing beside the sub. You have to be in your normal listening position and either have someone else flip the switch or get real good at poking the switch with a long stick.

Yep bridgman, I was in the same exact location when I noticed the differance. I have never totally understood Phase, but I believe it has something to do with the driver being in synch with the driver on the mains? I'm sure all will change, once I complete my new dedicated HT room in the basement.

My next goal is to purchase one of those AV disks and SPL meter to check to see how good the Denon Auto Setup and Room EQ performed, of course I'll have to figure out how to use all of that stuff, which will be another adventure.

Randy, it's not difficult. The disk pretty much walks you through it. But, should you have problems of any kind, you know you'll find assistance here. Give it a shot. The disk will also help your optimize your TV.

Which of these disks would you recommend for best features, but ease of navigation. I'll also want to use the Video items to tweek my Sanyo Z2 performance.

My main concern is SPL meters, in laymens terms what is their function, and I'm curious if the people that have receivers with auto setup, still used these?

thanks, guys

My H/K has a quasi-auto setup feature that sets the levels for you and has a microphone in the remote. It does not set the sub levels, so I found it necessary to use a sound meter. I also found that it set the levels very strangely and inconsistently.

In reply to:

---

Which of these disks would you recommend for best features, but ease of navigation.

---

Tough call. I have both. Avia is generally mentioned as being easier to navigate. But, I'm used to DVE so I navigate better in that one. DVE is a little easier on the ears because it uses 75dB as its benchmark, while Avia uses 85dB. DVE is less expensive. Both will do a good job of calibrating your system. If money is a factor, go with DVE. If it's not, go with Avia.

thanks for everyone's input, tonight I watched Lelo and Stitch with my 6yr old and the sub sounded great. I'm suprised that changing the phase switch made such an impact, now I have to play my Star Wars Trilogy over again.

Thought I would bring back this old post of mine. When I created this post, I was still using the EP350 upstairs. Tonight, while I was downstairs messing around with the phase switch on my EP500, trying to see what sounded best, I remembered this old post and how I used the very beginning of the Styx song Renegade to help me find the best phase option.

So, since it was so late and my kids were upstairs sleeping, I could not crank it to loud. I think I had the Denon on about -35dB's. I got out my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter and set it on Fast mode and 60dB setting.

The first time I played the beginning of the song, the phase switch was on 0 (zero). The Thump Thump Thump near the beginning gave me about 60.5dB on the meter. So then I switched the phase to 180, and replayed the beginning of the song. This time the Thump Thump Thump registered 66dB. It sounded much fuller and with more impact, even at such a low volume on the AVR.

What confuses me is the sub driver is pretty much right next to my left main speaker, so I always thought you would use 0(zero) in that case?

Interesting, Randy. I'm not familiar with that CD or the "thumps", but I'll throw out a thought. One possibly relevant point is that when two speakers(or a speaker and a sub)are playing the same frequencies, there's a partial cancellation near frequencies where the driver cones are separated by about half a wavelength. If the crossover is at 80Hz, this is a wavelength of about 14', so cones about 7' apart would tend to cancel around the 80Hz area if they were driven in-phase(i.e. using zero). If those thumps fall near that area, reversing to 180 might be reducing the cancellation with the right(not left)speaker, which is probably 6-7' away?

The sub is placed below the left edge of the screen and the mains are just to the side of the screen, angled in slightly. The screen is 10ft wide, so I'm guessing the mains are about 11ft apart and the right speaker is about 9-10ft from the sub.

The EP500 may simply be inverting the signal on the way in, or your receiver may be inverting and the EP500 not inverting. As far as I know there are only loose conventions (if any) about relationship between cone movement and signal polarity.

The only "hard" rule is "have someone flip the damn switch and see what happens"

John, Renegade is a torture test for speakers. (And very difficult to reproduce accurately) The first time I heard it on my EP600, it was a revelation. I thought, "So that's what it's supposed to sound like!"

Through most speakers you can barely hear the "thump", but if the volume is up, the sound will break up or "baff" as the driver bottoms out. I have never seen more mad dashes for the volume control, than with that song.

Shawn, I can totally relate dude.

I used to use (what I'm pretty sure was a pretty bad recording of) Imperial March to blow speakers. Needless to say, my Axioms have never heard it.

>>I'm not familiar with that CD or the "thumps",

Just recite the following lyric slowly while thumping your foot on the floor at each asterisk. Thump your foot on a carpet to sound as much like a close-miked bass drum as possible. It will all come back...

* Oh *ma ma I'm in *fear for my *life from the lo*ng arm *of the *law...

John, in our ethnic group we stomp our feet enthusiastically on the floor in time with the polka music, so that might be something analogous.

Surely you're familiar with the (implied) foot stomps in Schubert's Marche Militaire Op.51 No.1?

Indeed so, Peter, but I suppose that more than implication is required. Possibly a little flamenco, e.g. track 2. , but not much for a sub there.

JohnK, ahhhhh, Polka music. I married myself a nice 100% German gal from NE Iowa. Lots of German and Norawegian people up in those parts. Lots of ballrooms also where people have their wedding receptions. Also, where I learned how to polka and 2-step.

Are we saying the phase switch should have two settings marked POLKA and STYX ? That would sure be easier for people to figure out.