Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Vp150 off axis problem........

I recently received my vp150 and sitting directly in front of it, it sounds pretty good, problem is when you move a couple feet off axis the sound suffers quite noticeably.

At this point I am not sure if I can live with this being this way. The sound is like it’s thru a pillow when I sit in my side recliners beside my couch. Does anyone else notice this problem??

No, I don't. I sit about 12ft away from mine, and I can move all the way to one side of the couch and it still sounds great. I'm not sure how you have yours set up so posting pics could help determine if the problem is location or not. You can see PICS OF MINE HERE.

i have a 50' samsung dlp and it sits atop of it, basically the same as yours is. actually mine is a bit lower. sitting across the couch its ok, its when you sit in the recliners next to the couch, on either side, that it is like the speaker has a pillow in front of it...................no highs at all and very muffled sound.......

Several things. If you drew a line from the recliner across the room, parallel to the TV screen, what would be the distance of a perpendicular line from the center of the VP150 to that line? And how far is the recliner from the intersection of those two lines? If you're sitting relatively close to the TV, and way off to the side, there can be a problem. This would be true for any center channel speaker.

Also, how high off the floor are the ears of the person seated in the recliner, and how high is the center of the VP150 off the floor? Is the VP150 aimed down toward the listeners' ears?

Thirdly, with the volume at a moderate level so as to protect your ear, have you run an ear along the VP150 to be sure all 5 drivers are functioning properly?

I remember seeing something a while back about the 150 and off axis audio. You didn't mention what you are using for fronts and whether you have calibrated the speakers using an SPL meter (if not, you should do this).

Also, try moving the 150 a little in front of or a little behind the fronts (in relation to a straight line across all three speakers). If the 150 is in a fixed position, move the fronts forward or back. The purpose is to allow the 2 fronts to help fill in the soundstage on the sides. This exercise works if you calibrated and you will need to recalibrate when you find a sweet spot.

So I'm guessing by your description that the recliner is outside one of your main speakers as well. Is that accurate?

center and fronts are in line.

before you spent too much time trying to place the blame on my room setup i can tell you my ininity i just replaced did not have this problem. this is a night and day sound difference when in the recliners, its not a subtle thing......

fronts are m60's....

Mine are below my Sammy DLP. And it also does make a difference weather ur speaker is above or below ur TV. Make sure u angle ur speaker towards the listener.
BTW how in the world did you manage to put the 150 on top of the Sammy. Isnt the top a little too narrow? Do you have it like on the TV itself?

I replace my Martin Logan center with the VP-150 and noticed an improvement immediately. I wasn't trying to place the blame on the room, I was just tying to help figure out the problem. I will apologize and wish you luck.

it actually sits up there good, i have 2 little self adheasive bumpers on the bottom back and its sits like it was made for it. it is pointed directly at my couch perfect.

Just for kicks, try sending a test signal just to your center speaker (using your receiver's built-in tones or tones from a DVD). Then move between your best seat and the two side seats.

Is the problem still as pronounced? If so, then there may be a problem, if not, then I'd try re-calibrating all your speakers.

I have my VP150 under the screen and I had to tilt it up to get it to sound correct. (I ended up just flipping it upside down and the angle was almost perfect.)

Axiom tech has been fantastic in helping me to diagnose the issue I am having with this. I have isolated it to the center woofer causing the problem with my room acoustics. I currently have it disconnected and the problem is almost completely gone. I can walk around the room with almost no tonal change.

Perhaps it’s something weird with the acoustics of my room because this doesn’t seem to be a normal problem.

We are going to try some different resistors to the center woofer to solve the issue so it doesn’t have to be disconnected.

Interesting side note:
With the center disconnected the ohms goes to 5.2 for the speaker, also, with it disconnected I would swear it has greater imaging, perhaps its just in my head but I really think it sounds better.

Keep ya posted……..

Wow. That's pretty amazing! Not something I would have though of...

You are not the only person who find phantom center to be better off. I guess 4.1 make more sense

I'm assuming you meant you have the center woofer disconnected, as opposed to the entire VP150. If so, how did you do that?

In reply to:

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before you spent too much time trying to place the blame on my room setup i can tell you my ininity i just replaced did not have this problem.

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In reply to:

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Perhaps it's something weird with the acoustics of my room

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Hmm.

the center woofer of the 3 in the vp150 is what i disconnected.


update!!

just for comparison i purchased the paradigm cc370 center today and will be doing a full run of comparison tests. it should prove to be rather interesting.....

I'm getting a tonygeno vibe.

You know, I believe you’re right.

Actually, I've been holding my breath hoping to avoid that experience again!

Not certain just yet. I think we might be doing ok so far.

Fingers crossed!

Well I guess some don’t really want to hear my thoughts about the 2 centers.....shame some are so close minded.

I always thought the purpose of message boards were to have an open forum about likes, and yes, dis-likes.

Believe me I wouldn’t trade my Axiom M60’s for double the price I paid for them, the same goes for my little M3ti’s. I am totally happy with both of them; both sets of speakers have gone far beyond my expectations.

I would be lying if I said I was content with the sound from my VP150, and that is o.k. heck axiom hit 2 home runs for me, out of the park home runs! I don’t know of any speaker company that can cover the total spectrum of a home theater application, to Axioms credit they have provided me with 2 sets of speakers that are incredible.

Now for my honest thoughts of the 2 centers…………listening to Bad Boys2, Finding Nemo, playing some true 5.1 halo2, and Monsters Inc., for me the Paradigm, to my ears, sounds more natural and is harder to locate its actual position. I find male voices are more naturally tuned and it does not have the unnatural high S’s in words with the sss sound. Does this mean 1 is better than the other? Absolutely not, I am only stating my personal preference.

Anyone with any knowledge of this hobby surely knows reviews are nothing more than a basic guideline and the only one who can decide which is better for themselves is by personally setting it up in their home and using their own ears. I consider myself fortunate to have the opportunity to audition both of these fine speakers.

I, for one, appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I find there are so many factors in the sound that one can't factor sound alone to just speakers, or just receivers, or just DVD players, but everything plays a factor in the overall sound. People sometimes say one is MORE important than the other. I have to, after personal expereince swapping all three of these things over and over again that EVERYTHING is VERY important.

I've personally not much experience with Paradigm, though I have heard them. But what I want to interject, since you seem very open to experimenting, is that a change of receiver or moreso, amplification, can make a big difference and really close the gap between the Paradigm and Axiom for you.

But...if you feel that you've found a sound your happy with, more power to you. That's what we all seek. Where the Axioms come in as really great is great sound and a great price. Especially when compared to the other giants Paradigm and B&W.

So again, please don't take offense to the sceptic thoughts on the VP-150 that we've had here. It's just that we've been this route before (myself included starting a thread). Its apparent to me the VP-150 isn't flawless (sorry guys) just by the sheer fact that it comes up so much...either that or it's a picky speaker. I've gotten used to mine and things don't bother me much. Part of it is in the calibration. Part of it is in it's location (which seems to be a common culprit).

So, I just thought I'd throw some additional thought on the subject. Some of you have heard all of this before, but it's always good to remember the newbies or people who haven't had a chance to read the backlogs of the forum (as it is extensive).

Peace

Misfit_Toy,

Thank you, I agree we all are on a quest for that ideal sound for our dollar spent. The only constant in all of this is that everyone hears thing a bit different.

Thanks Again.

GeneticDrift, I think you misunderstood. This was a little insider joke based on a guy who had an issue with his 150 similar to what you describe. He turned a simple discussion into an onerus, egregious, draconian, full scale, long term, take no prisoners, bang your forehead against the wall, make no sense, troll acting out dummy contest of major proportions. It was nothing but an exercise in obssessive pain infliction of bizarre proportions. Perhaps the worst thing I've ever seen in a forum anywhere. And by the way, I don't think I've overstated the issue.

Nobody here is taking issue with your subject or with your input. The older denizens here were simple recalling that wicked exchange and hoping mightily that that guy didn't come across the thread somehow (shudder) and re-ignite.

You should, by all means, feel free to contribute whatever you would like and there will always be help offered in return. Again, please don't misunderstand the exchange - it really had nothing to do with you.

Does CC-370 blend well w/ M60?

Actually they sound very well together. So well that something interesting happened tonight while watching Dodge ball.

About 1 hour into the movie I noticed I actually was just enjoying the movie. I hadn’t once been drawn to the center speakers sound...........I actually forgot about it! This is something that hadn’t happened with either my old Infinity center or my VP150.

WOW! I was actually enjoying a movie without being distracted, finally great sound that doesn’t draw attention to itself. This was the 1st time I actually got to enjoy a movie this way. Who would have thought it would be something you don’t hear that would make all the difference.

I know many talk of timbre matching etc. but I honestly think having a subtle timbre difference in the center channel indeed makes it more realistic. You have to try it to see what I mean but now the sound is not dominated by a certain character, just as in real life everything in your surroundings has its own range, it adds to the dimension.

I know what you are talking about, I used to own Energy Encore System and I was always extracted by the center having all the dialogs. I sold the 5 speakers and get back M60. I am planning to buy QS8 in March but hesitate to think about an axiom center.

I am searching on ebay but hasn't find too many CC-370. However there are a lot of Paradigm Reference CC v2. I wonder which is superior.

I have a feeling that Axiom will have a redesigned center very soon.

Has anyone tried to using 2 M22's as a center? I apologize if this has been brought up in this forum before. The last thing I want to do is beat a dead horse.

My thought is to get two M22's and position them on top of my RPTV on their sides. The configuration would look like this: T W W W W T (T = TWEETER, W = WOOFER). I believe that it would be a 4 Ohm load which isn't a problem in my case. I could also use two channels of an amp and use splitters to direct the signal properly. I would use door stops to angle it.

Anyone have any thoughts? Would I have a problem anchoring the dialogue because of the tweeters would be farther out?

GeneticDrift, I hope I didn’t offend you with the private joke that was going on behind the scenes. It was not intended to insult you in any way. I appreciate your tactfulness and honesty.

Cheers,

Tom

I won't try cuz even if it work perfectly, I won't do that cuz it looks kind of odd in a HT.

This would also look odd but it sounds good. http://www.earthquakesound.com/platinelarge.htm

In my case I don't worry about how it looks because the lights are off . I only care how it sounds.

that brand is expensive

Very expensive. It does sound good though.

I wouldn't count on that. There have been a few people with problems with the VP150, granted, but there's also been an awful lot of happy owners.

[EDIT - replied to the wrong message, this is concerning 2xM22 as center]

There are a lot of threads on this - even more of them discuss using one or two M2s as centers.

The "mains as center" crowd also tends to advocate vertical centers rather than horizontal. I found a single horizontal center mucked up the imaging but didn't get a chance to try a symmetrical pair, that should work better.

Suggest you start a new thread for this but do search the archives back a year or so first. Remember that we spell "center" / "centre" differently depending on US or Canada

I would have to agree, there is not product of any kind which will please everyone. I would think if you could hit an 80% success rate then you could classify that product a success.

2 m3's may be an idea in the right direction. I think you need the larger drivers in the center to produce the tones correctly.

I tend to think a problem may be using a stock or on-hand driver to create every speaker in a manufacturer’s lineup may be a problem. I'm not so sure that you would want an aluminum cone to reproduce vocal qualities. It may indeed not be the material necessary to get a pure reproduction on a center channel. I understand manufacturing costs and more inventories but it may be necessary.

Just a thought……

tleigh and Geneticdrift, do a search and you'll find much discussion on the subject of running single/multiple bookshelves as centres and I think those that have tried have been happy.

I am currently running a single M22, vertically, as a centre and I'm extremely happy with it. No matter what ones position is in the room the centre channel is perfectly anchored to the centre. The blend from L C R is flawless and better than any system with a designated centre that I have heard. I have not had an opportunity to hear the VP100 or VP150 so can't comment per a comparision but there are many happy VP owners out there and a number of +ve reviews on them particularily making the point of how well they blend in a sytem compared to other centres.

Aesthetics is a major problem with this type of centre for many and a valid enough reason not to do it. But if looks aren't a problem then for sonics I feel that a single M2 or M22 is the ultimate and very much worth considering; particularily, if the traditional approach isn't giving the expected results.

Good Luck


EDIT:
Here's one of many good threads on the subject

No doubt that vp150 is successful but I still think I want to find a center that will satisfy 99% of the owners instead of 80%.

I am still curious if cc-370 is a good sub for vp150

>> but I still think I want to find a center that will satisfy 99% of the owners instead of 80%.

That's easy. Spend a lot more money and you can probably find something that everyone would like.

The challenge IMO is finding something for a reasonable price which, for YOUR purposes, is pretty much as good as the cost-no-object products.

then I guess, phantom center is ideal. So far, all the ones who complained about the center are happier w/ phantom center. $0 center.

Type_E
(old hand)
12/12/04 07:01 PM
Re: Vp150 off axis problem........ [re: GeneticDrift] Reply
(Wrote)
(I am still curious if cc-370 is a good sub for vp150 )


Personally i am very happy with the CC-370, although i wouldnt call it a substitute, just a different animal.....

TypeE, GeneticDrift,and all,

More money will not necessarily buy you a better center channel than the VP150. Properly placed--and that may vary a lot with every setup, given the vagaries of rooms and the influence they have on the perceived tonal balance--the VP150 and VP100 are sufficiently neutral that they blend very well with the M2i's, M60s, M22s, M80s, etc.

Because of boundary effects, no center channel will ever sound identical in tonal balance to its mates on the left and right, even when you use an identical model as a center speaker. The goal is to experiment with center-channel placement until you get the center's timbral balance as close as possible to the mains, such that any coloration is not a distraction. And that is attainable with either the VP100 or VP150.

A phantom center is not a solution. It's extremely anti-social because only one listener can use the system. For anyone sitting off-axis, the dialog will collapse to the nearer right or left main speaker. And you also can't trim the center dialog volume for greatest intelligibility.

Regards,

"...even when you use an identical model as a center speaker."

I just think this part needs extra stress. Placement, placement, placement is very influential in how a speaker will sound, tonally.

Nice info, alan.

This takes us full circle back to the first few posts when we started discussing placement. The reason for the first few posts was based on Alan's historical input on the subject and some other bits from my memory where placement sometimes solved the issue, or at least ameliorated it. I'm not sure what the configuration of your original center - the Infinity (?) was, but I'll guess the VP150 is more robust. If you haven't tried the forward / back thing I suggested - give it a try. Might be a nice surprise.

For me the VP150 is no longer an issue, it is being returned.

This is due to the fact that the Paradigm CC-370 sounds as close to perfect as I could imagine, without timely setup, simply placed atop of my television and a simple channel pink noise adjustment.

In my opinion I shouldn’t have to spend time with resistors or timely setup, and true to my belief the paradigm sounds utterly fantastic with no fuss.

I'm glad you found a solution that satisfied you. I know if I encountered the same thing you did I would not have rested until it was resolved.

Congrats on finding a good solution, Jeff. And thank you for sharing your experience with us.