Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Axiom or Rocket - Buying without audition

I live in a small town in the middle east - Oman. There are no audio shops closer than 380 kilometers, and even those do not have a variety of equipment and have to order all their stuff so auditioning is impossible.

I have been into music for a while and into HT for the last couple of years.

This is my current setup:

6 KEF Q1's
Den0n 3805
Philips Q50 DVD Player
HK CD 755
Pioneer 363 DVD
Panasonic LT701 Projector
SVS 20-39 PC+

All this in a dedicated HT room:

Length: 18.5 feet
Width: 14 feet
Height: 10.3 feet

Total Volume is: 2654 feet


I have a strong case of upgraditis and would like to upgrade my speakers. Since I cannot audition or procure any models here except Axiom and Rockets, I would like to limit the choices to on of the following Sets:

Axiom:
Tower M80ti fronts
VP150 Center
QS8's Surround
QS8's Surround back

Rockets:
RS750 Sigs Fronts (Maybe RS850 !!)
RSC200 Center
RSS300 Surround
RSS300 Surround back


I already have shelves for the existing surround back that are around 5 feet high. So I will be planning to use these for the Rocket Surrounds. For the Axiom Surrounds, I will be hanging them on the wall. The Back speakers will have to be on a stand because of a large glass window in the back and therefore the impossibility of hanging them on the wall.


I generally listen to Rock: (Dire Straits, Chris Ria, Pink Floyd), Pop (Sting), Spanish Guitar. For Movies, I usually enjoy Action and SciFi. Usage is roughly 50%-50% HT-Music.


Since I cannot demo both, then I will have to buy them blindly. Buying both and sending the ones I do not like back will be VERY expensive.


I like the KEF sound but feel that they lack depth and clarity. They also strain with higher volumes. I do not like very high sounds and get ear fatigue listening to such speakers. I mostly listen to Music at moderate-low levels. Sometimes cranking up the volume as far as I can. Please help me select a set.

Are these too much for my room ? I have the money and would not like to regret it later. Also, I am planning to move to a bigger HT room and house within a couple of years.

Will I be able to drive these properly with the 3805 ?

Will I get loud and clear and non-fatiguing SPL's ?


I will post this in both the AV123 and Axiom forums.

I would appreciate any help I can get.

Thanks People.

Hi Nat.

Fellows, as Nat has said, he's posted the same thing over at av123. Quite naturally, they recommended the Rockets and other than the stereotypical characterization of the Axioms as "bright," and the usual preference for the Rocket finish, they've been reasonably kind toward the Axioms. It would be nice if we would return the courtesy.

I think it's important that I quote something that Nat said over at av123. "I was initially investigating the Axioms only. Then I started getting worried with all the talk about the 'bright' effects and I know that I am generally sensitive to high sounds and get fatigue easily. I found some people on the Axiom forum making changes to the towers to tame them and some who are adding pads ... etc to reduce the brightness. That got me worried."

Nat's in a tough situation being in a remote area that makes returning his purchase a very difficult and expensive propostion. I would remind you that the important thing is that Nat end up with a purchase that HE finds satisfying. It's not a contest between Axiom and Rocket. For that reason, and because of the his mentioned sensitivity to highs, I told him I thought the Rockets would be a wiser, safer choice. What's your opinion?

I'll start things off with a couple of disclaimers. I have never heard M80s / VP150 or rockets but I do have M60s and VP100.

Given your room size and listening habits you would probably be fine with M60/VP100 but if there is any chance of moving to a bigger room in the future the M80/VP150 combo is probably the way to go. In terms of being "too big for the room" the only caveats I have seen re: M80 is that they like to be a couple of feet away from the wall and owners seem to be happier when they are not sitting too close. If the M80s are going against the short wall then everything should be peachy... if going against the long wall then you will probably want the listening position to be not much more than 4 feet from the back wall. Can you put the mains on the short wall ?

re: loud and clear non-fatiguing SPLs, M80s seem to excel at that. Again, I haven't heard them but they are supposed to be quite a bit better the M60 at high SPL and my M60s play louder than I ever want (13x23x8 room) without sounding at all strained.

re: "I do not like very high sounds" the sense I get is that Rockets are a bit more bass-heavy and treble-light than Axioms. Some people do prefer that sound and Axiom has a few speakers that lean the same way (M3, M40, M50), but the M80s are more "clean and accurate" than "mellow".

If you can find someone with B&W 703s a lot of people say M60s sound very similar -- and M80s are the same but able to play at higher volumes with the same clarity.

That's all I know ;(

>>It's not a contest between Axiom and Rocket. For that reason, and because of the his mentioned sensitivity to highs, I told him I thought the Rockets would be a wiser, safer choice. What's your opinion?

I felt the same way... with the caveat that taking the treble down a bit with Axioms could probably accomplish the same thing.

One thing to consider -- would it be easier to make Rockets sound like Axioms by tweaking the tone controls, or to make Axioms sound like Rockets by tweaking the other way ?

I haven't heard much about the Rocket centers and surrounds, has anyone heard them ? Probably does make sense to stay with one vendor for all the speakers.

I have not heard the either of the Rocket centers, or their surrounds. The talk I hear is that their RSC200 (affectionately, and appropriately called "Bigfoot"-12"Hx10.5"Dx25"W • 46 lbs) is fabulous.

Their RSS300 surrounds are dipoles, and are probably very good. But, my quadpolar QS8s are fabulous, and I'd bet they have the edge in the surround category. All of which just makes Nat's decision that much more difficult.

Nat, I forgot to mention that both companies have raised the standards of customer service to new highs. I've heard REMARKABLE stories about both companies' service. Can't go wrong there, either way.

Critics of the Axioms call them "bright" or "harsh." Proponents describe the same listening experience as "accurate," or "detailed." Regardless, you will not find these speakers "muddy," or "muffled and they will expose a poorly mixed CD. If your room has hardwood floors, bare walls, minimal furniture, and a low ceiling, Axioms may not be for you. If you have carpeting, wall hangings, sofas and chairs, and/or a high ceiling you may find them wonderful.

With music, having owned lesser speakers I had gotten into the habit of cranking up the volume in order to give me the listening experience I wanted (hearing everything). I have found that these speakers do NOT need to be cranked to provide the satisfying experience of hearing everything in the mix.

For home theater, I find the whole ensemble flawless. Of course, the fact that I'm the one sitting in the sweet spot just might have something to do with that.

Hello Nat and welcome. You definitely have a tougher decision than most...

One thing I was thinking was perhaps you could give us some feed back about what you do and do not like about your KEF's. Since you're at least familiar with the KEF's, others (not myself) may be familiar with them as well and may beable to offer some comparisons between the Axioms and KEF's. This may give you a better idea of what to expect with an Axiom upgrade. So what are you looking for...? more base, tighter base, clearer midrange...ect?

With regards to the Axiom's being "bright". I have had my Axioms for about a week and a half and I really think this assesment of Axioms as being "bright" is really unfair and totally inaccurate. Let me explain. The M60's that I have can be very fatiguing and quite honestly there was a moment when I first got them that I thought: "heck these things ARE just to "bright" and I'm gonna send them back..." However, what I quickly discovered was that it wasn't the speakers at all but the RECORDING, plain and simple. These speakers are completely neutral, almost to a fault. What I am experiencing is if you give the Axioms a good recording the sound is totally smooth and transparent, absolutely amazing! Give them a poor recording and yes definitely the sound can be bright and fatiguing. I have a very "bright" room, the walls are bare dry-wall and there's a brick fire place to one side. The only redeeming feature to this room is the carpeted floor. In this "bright" room I still can get the smoothest, most natural sound I've ever heard from any speaker in this price range (and above). The Axioms are perfectly neutral and transparent, the mark of a real High End speaker, but this comes at a cost. The cost being that it's very likely that not every recording you own will sound good. Some recordings could honestly sound terrible, but this isn't the fault of the speaker but of the recording.

I really believe this is how Axiom speakers have gotten this unfair label as being "bright". I think what can happen is people get them home, set them up and start listening to some of their favorite music only to be disappointed when their favorite tunes, that they're used to hearing on cheaper speakers with recessed mids and highs, now suddendly sound terrible, and then unfairly blame the speakers. Again, I experienced this and WAS initially dissapointed, but it wasn't until I gave them a real chance with well engineered recordings that I began to understand their true potential. They are simply amazing IMHO!

I think anyone making the decision to go with Axiom needs to understand this point clearly. It's likely you will not enjoy every recording you own and could experience dissapointments, BUT the good recordings you do own will sound like pure magic. So if you're interested in refining your music collection and enjoy finding those great recordings then the Axioms will definitely serve you very well. If you want all your recordings good & bad, old & new to sound good then its possible the Axioms shouldn't be your first choice.

I hope this helps and I truely hope you find the best speakers for you.

Best of luck, Mike

I think we need to ask Nat for some clarification on the following statement :

>>I like the KEF sound but feel that they lack depth and clarity. They also strain with higher volumes. I do not like very high sounds and get ear fatigue listening to such speakers.

Depending on whether "high sounds" means "upper midrange and treble" or "loud noises" (probably distorted) that makes a big difference re: which speaker we would recommend.

re: current system lacking clarity, I have never heard a speaker better than Axioms for clarity. Many new owners comment that the are hearing nuances in their existing recordings that they simply never heard before.

I'm starting to suspect that "wonderful clarity + bad recordings" is the real issue when Axioms get branded as "bright"... and that it's the midrange area not the very high end where the real difference in clarity is made.

Nat, as Jag says it would really help if you could give us a few more details re: exactly what you like and dislike about your current system. Depending on how we interpret your first comments, either Axioms or Rockets are the obvious choice for your next system

Hey Nat,

I was in the same boat as you. If you do a search, you can read the string to see just how much I was waffling back and forth. The one advantage you have over me is shipping costs. I'm in Alaska and everything shipped here is air freight. The best advice I can give you is buy both, send the set you don't like back and eat the shipping costs. I was seriously going to do just exactly that, but if the Rockets would have gone back, I'd have been out close to $700 in shipping costs. If I could have done it for $200 or less, I wouldn't have hesitated. Hell, I'm seriously thinking about buying a set of the 850's just to hear them and sell whichever set I don't want. But I'd probably keep them both. But I have to put a new stereo in my truck first....priorities, priorities....

I really can't underestimate the importance of you listening to both in your home. Don't even bother trying to find a different speaker that some folks think sound like the Axioms or Rockets. It's all just opinions, and you that old saying about opinions don't you? Many folks think that Axioms sound like the 703's, I don't.

Regarding the 'bright' statements of the M80's, yah, they are bright at times depending on what I'm listening to. Some recordings will actually give me a friggin headache if I play them loud. However, most recordings sound amazing. I doubt that that's a unique trait of Axioms and that you would find most speakers bright while playing the same screwed up recordings.

Good luck. ........mike

**edit....crap Nat, for some odd reason I was thinking mid US. Sorry, I suspect shipping costs would be horrible to you. Well, maybe you could peddle the set you don't like over there and make a few bucks???

best regards.

Thanks for all the interest.

Wonderful forum, wonderful community. Both the AV123 and the Axiom communities are unbelievable.

Now to answer some of the questions:

The tip about the B&W 703 sound is nice. Unfortunately, the closest B&W dealer is six hours driving away. So, not practical. I do not know anyone with B&W's close by.

My dedicated HT room has bare walls and marble flooring. I have some DVD cabinets and a rug and a Sofa in the room. Otherwise, it is a bare room.




perhaps you could give us some feed back about what you do and do not like about your KEF's
===========================================

The KEF Q1's that I have are bookshelves. I feel that they lack the 'punch', 'meat', 'midrange ?'. They also sound horrible at loud volumes. They strain at higher loads. Last night I was listening/viewing the Eric Clapton: Live in Hyde Park DVD. I crancked up the volume on my 3805 to -13 (85 db) during the acoustic version of Layla - Track 1. I felt that the Q1's were screeching to keep up. My SVS 20-39 PC+ was doing fine, so I got good bass with very limited mids and too much highs. I got an earache from the highs but no satisfaction from the music.

Apologese if this is not audiophile speak, but this is what I felt. I cannot say whether the dissatisfaction was from too much treble or too much distortion.

mdrew

I'd have been out close to $700 in shipping costs.
-----------


Looks like I will end up paying more than 1000 US$ shipping.

However, I am wearing a teeshirt outside today because the weather is too sweet

>>I cannot say whether the dissatisfaction was from too much treble or too much distortion.

Hmmm... don't suppose you know anyone in the area with a real good system you could crank up with the same music and tell us what you think ?

In terms of driver complement the Q1s seem to be comparable to Axiom M3s so either the Rocket 750s or the M80s are going to be an incredible jump up in ability to play loudly and cleanly.

I haven't seen enough direct comparisons of the two speakers to offer much advice on which you would like better. I have seen two such reviews -- one says the Rockets are brighter than the Axioms, the other says the Axioms are brighter than the Rockets. Bah !!

We're all hoping "lomb7" comes back with a direct comparison of Rocket 750s and M60s.

T-shirt, sounds nice. We are in light coat weather in Alberta around 0-5C or 32-40'sF.
I have some M22's and have played metal (Van Halen, Aerosmith etc) at the volumes you speak of and find it sounds like a concert. Afterall isn't that what we are looking for? The high's are high and the lows are low(with a sub in my case)and with hard rock the highs can get pretty high. I have found guitars and pianos sound extremely life like, as if the performer was in the room. As it has been stated, one person's too high is another's detail. It really is a preference thing. I had my system up to 95db for 2 hrs and I thought it was great. Then my wife came home and reality set in. BTW, I run a Denon 1804 so the receiver should be no problem. Also the finish on the Axiom's really is better than most people say. My wife thought it was real veneer till she touched it and even then she wasn't sure as it has a kind of grain to it. Good luck on your choice.

Wow!! That would hurt.

Marble floors........sounds sweet.

A couple thoughts.....

You could order the M80's and ask Axiom to send you some resistors. If they are too "bright" for you tastes, the resistors will tame them down a little for you. I haven't installed them, but might just to see what the difference will be. The only reason I would, is that I have no treble control.

I hate to throw my opinion out there about sound comparison, but you're pretty much screwed on the auditioning idea. See if you can find a set of Paradigm Studio ref III's. The 100's sounded more like the M80's than the 703's did in my opinion.

I was wearing a T-shirt yesterday. It was raining and a balmy 38 deg. Today it's snowing and 29, so I reckon I better put a coat on, or stay indoors finishing my HT Room.

Nat, have you tried talking directly to Axiom? They might be able to work something out with you based on your unique circumstances. Their Customer Service is exceptional. Who knows - they might be crazed trying to figure out how to get an Axiom toehold in Oman.

I believe that I owe everyone an update and closure to my dilemma. Everyone was very nice (in both Axiom and AV123 forums) and I am posting this updatee in both sites.

After completing all the commercial discussions, I found that the rockets are MUCH more expensive to SHIP. Therefore, the complete SHIPPED to Oman price difference between the Rockets 750 7 speaker package and the Equivalent Axiom 7 speaker package (M80 ... etc) is more than $2500. I cannot justify paying double the price of Axiom for the Rockets.

So I decided to go with the Axiom package.

I placed an order for the following Axiom Package:

M80ti x Pair
VP150
QS8 x 2 Pairs
Wall Brackets


These were shipped today and I cannot wait for them to arrive.

Strange that after all those attempts to evaluate the speaker performance and sound re-production, things boil down to commercial issues for a final decision

Thanks for all the help that everyone provided.

Congatulations, Nat! While I wished you were able to get what you truly wanted, you might find yourself pleasantly surprised by your new Axioms.

My Axioms(M60's,VP150,QS8's)arrived last Friday and I have been listening to them non-stop since then. I don't find my Axioms to be bright at all. I have listened to them at rediculously loud volumes....enough to clip my receiver once,in fact; and never did I find them bright or fatiguing. Rather, they sound just as good as they do at normal listening levels.

DVD's are fantastic....the QS8's are amazingly good. I only hope you find yours as satisfying as I have found mine to be.

After you get them hooked up, give it a week of listening to CD's and DVD's and then let us know your thoughts.

Hey Nat! Thanks for coming back and letting us know what you chose to do. I know you must've had a tough time coming to a decision, but I think you'll be happy with your purchase. Keep in mind that Axioms WILL reveal a poorly mixed or mastered CD. And, keep in mind that your room will have a major influence on how your speakers sound.

If you'll give us an idea of the kind of music you enjoy, maybe we can give you some suggestions for some well mixed and mastered CDs for your inaugural experience with the Axioms.

If we can help in any other way, don't hesitate to call on us.

Nat, too bad you had to make a decsion based on cartage. The good news is that you will have some audio working for you shortly. Keep us on baord. Also, I for one would be fascinated to see what a set of Axioms look like in an Omani home, so pictures please.