Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo DAC problem - or am I missing something?

I previously posted about my Yamaha HTR 5740 having trouble driving 3 zones for stereo music. For Christmas, I upgraded to an HK 3480 stereo receiver which does very well from a power perspective (it doesn't cut off when I turn it up and will continuously drive all 3 zones for hours at high volume levels), but the sound seems somewhat less detailed. Is this because I am now relying on my cheap (I think it was $99 at Circuit City) Sony CD player's (CDP-CE375) DACs (the 3480 has no Toslink input so it is connected by the R and L CD output into the R and L CD input) - whereas before when I had the CD player connected by the Toslink I was using the receiver's DACs - and they were presumably better? And if so, what is the most expeditious solution? Send the 3480 back and get an HK AVR 230 for an additional $50 - even though it is a 6.1 receiver with less power? Get a better CD player? Are there affordable stereo receivers with Toslink input? Or am I just hearing things - perhaps because I am now turning the music up louder and it gets somewhat more distorted (although I don't recall ever hearing anything sound particularly distorted in any way on my M22s with the Toslink hookup on the Yamaha)? Thanks in advance for any input.

Wow, tough question. I would expect the HK to be cleaner than the Yamaha. Any chance that any of the following factors are involved :

- now that you have music all through the house you aren't forced into the prima listening zones so you are losing mid and high detail simply by virtue of not being directly in front of the speakers any more

- different speakers at different distances are mucking up the detail because the sound arrives at different times (this is one reason many people don't like 5 channel stereo)

- you can now play your good speakers and crappy speakers at the same time

- when all your speakers are going at once the house is adding it its own little noises (I do have this problem, sound quality is much worse in some rooms because of subtle not-yet-diagnosed buzzes and rattles)

Anyways, it sounds like you are winning. I did fell that I got slightly better CD playback via digital than analog connection (from megachanger to receiver) after I purchased an AV receiver but figure the real answer is to get a better CD player not change the receiver for the sole purpose of getting around the CD player DACs...

Take all this with a grain of salt, I don't know the answers just tossing out ideas. I don't know if the 230 will have the same 2-channel "oomph" as the 3380 -- the power supply will certainly be as large but don't know about the amplifier output stage. HK230 is rated for 65 W / 35 amp output while 3380 is 80W / 42A output. The AV receivers also don't always have the A/B speaker switching, don't know if that's a problem.

IMO the right thing to do is decide if this system is going to evolve into HT or not. If so, start upgrading in that direction -- either an AV receiver *or* a DVD player with good analog outputs and use that as CD player instead of the Sony.

Good luck !

Thanks bridgman. This is not going to evolve into a HT system. I have a HT system that I really like. The system in question is my "downstairs/secondary/put on a bunch of CDs for listening in the living room, pool deck, master bedroom/background music" system. I think the problem is that I got the M22s so I could have really good sound in my living room, but they are good enough to expose any weak links. When I first got my Yamaha receiver, I hooked the CD player up via the R and L CD (analog?) channels and it sounded about like it does now - only it would not play as loud and would cut off when I tried to play it loud. When I bought a Toslink cable and connected the CD player to the Yamaha receiver via that route it was a significant improvement - but still with the same volume/power issues. After some discussion on this board, I became convinced that I had just bought the wrong receiver for the job because it was designed for 6.1 - not 2-channel stereo with very low resistance from 3 sets of speakers - hence the HK. I think I might try my better CD/DVD/SACD player from the HT set-up upstairs - or my 14 year-old Denon 1-disc player that I have in my garage and see what I get...

Who woulda thunk that I would get upgradeitis on my secondary system?

>>Who woulda thunk that I would get upgradeitis on my secondary system?

It happens to the best of us. In a moment of weakness I picked up a set of M60s for my secondary system. Finally hauled them back down to the basement, put them in as mains in the HT system and moved the M2s to surround duty.

Now I'm looking for a smaller set of speakers for the secondary system again, looking for something used and cheap but may end up with M3s.

>>I think I might try my better CD/DVD/SACD player from the HT set-up upstairs - or my 14 year-old Denon 1-disc player that I have in my garage and see what I get...

Ahh, good. You have everything you need for some serious experimentation. Good luck !

"Ahh, good. You have everything you need for some serious experimentation. Good luck !"

I didn't come here to be encouraged to experiment. I came here to get some serious answers!!! Where are all the people with the answers??? What - Is it like a holiday or something? :-)

So jr.com has a 5 disc HK CD player with "Dual 18-bit Burr-Brown digital-analog converters" for $179 with free shipping. Is this what I need? I seem to remember people here thinking highly of the Burr-Brown DACs...or am I wrong?

Burr-Brown DACs are good, Denon uses them in a lot of their equipment.. I can't tell you if it will solve your problem or not, but if you noticed the same quality problem using analog with your old amp, it's a good bet that going with better DACs would help.

"before when I had the CD player connected by the Toslink I was using the receiver's DACs - and they were presumably better"

Foghorn, I doubt it's a DAC issue. One possibility: when connected by Toslink the receiver's DSP modes were improving the sound. When connected by analog, the receiver is essentially a dumb analog amp.

Also I don't understand the HTR5740 shutting down. It's an 85 watt/chan receiver. Even assuming 1/2 that for "all channels driven", it still shouldn't shut down.

I notice the 5740 doesn't have multi-zone capability. Were you just tacking on more speakers in parallel, thereby lowering the impedance?

In general I'd suggest using a receiver with multi-zone capability. Using a powered subwoofer for your other zones would greatly help the sound quality and decrease the amp load. Don't know if that's possible given your configuration.

"I notice the 5740 doesn't have multi-zone capability. Were you just tacking on more speakers in parallel, thereby lowering the impedance?"

Yes. As near as I can tell the Yamaha doesn't like the lower resistance. Now the HK 3480 has plenty of power, but (as mentioned above) doesn't sound as good. The music just doesn't have that "I can almost see the musicians in front of me" sound that came out of the M22s before the receiver change. They now sound only slightly better than the speakers in the other 2 zones which I chose largely for their lack of cost (e.g. $49 for a pair of outdoor speakers).

Yow! That's really low impedence, if all 3 speakers are 8 ohms! I'm surprised anything except a pro amp can drive them at all. You may want to consider splitting it out with at least one more amp or at least one of those speaker selector boxes.

I have a speaker selector box - but at times I want the music on in all 3 zones.

As for the analog vs. toslink output from the CD player - the saga continues....

I gave the Yamaha to some friends to help them get started on an inexpensive home theater set-up. I went over to their house yesterday to help them get it set up. They had a 1989 $1000 Sony stereo (CD player, tuner, integrated amp, tower speakers), RCA DVD/CD player, and 1997 Hitachi big screen TV. We changed out the receiver and got things hooked up to the point that they could go get some speaker wire to hook up the 2 Mirage M260s (1990 bookshelf speakers) that I gave them to use as surrounds. When we hooked up their DVD player via the toslink to the Yamaha receiver the Sony speakers just came alive in a way that the never had before. When Darla tapped on the glass in Finding Nemo, it sounded great. It didn't shake the room because they have no subwoofer, but they have 8" woofers in their speakers and it really sounded great - I thought so and I have a very nice main HT system - and more importantly, my friends thought so and they have seen that movie many times and never heard it sound that good). We played some of their CD's on the DVD/CD player and they both thought they sounded much better than they ever have before. So, now I have the option of trying to buy a better CD player or sending my HK stereo receiver back to jr.com and getting an AV receiver to see if it will give me the sound volume/dependability I need with the quality I want when I connect my CD player with the toslink.....so for $50 (upgrade) I'm getting an HK AVR 235 to see if it will do the trick.

The time has come to resurrect this thread.....

I got an HK AVR 235 and hooked up the CD player by toslink and by the analog output and did some comparisons - and had my wife (much better ear than me) listen while I changed between the two inputs. I liked the toslink on all fronts - although my wife (the only blinded listener) thought the analog input gave a better sound for vocals/?midrange and the toslink sound was better on all other accounts - specifically the musical instruments. But as she pointed out - we really had to work hard to try to hear a difference (even though she is convinced the difference is real as it was repeatable with different kinds of music no matter how I switched up the inputs) so maybe I was just making most of this "problem" up so I could get the receiver with the input that I wanted all along - but didn't get originally because I was using a Best Buy (they don't carry HK) gift card when I originally bought the Yamaha....

Meanwhile my friends (somewhat less financially fortunate than my family) think I am Santa Claus because they love what the Yamaha has done for their system. I really believe it is a very good receiver as long as you don't ask it to drive a very low resistance set-up.

Thanks for all past and future input.

Thoughts?