Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Paradigm Atoms / M2 vs. M3 sound

So... spent part of the holiday rearranging the sound systems. I used to have M2 mains, VP100 and cheap tower surrounds on the HT system and M60s upstairs on a bedroom music system.

I donated the tower surrounds as cheap mains for my brother-in-law's new HT system, moved the M2s to the surround position on my HT, and moved the M60s down to the basement to become HT mains. Very nice, almost overwhelming for movies but having matched surrounds and mains made a huge difference in the music reproduction. No more cheap surrounds for me

That left me without a system upstairs. I picked up a pair of used Paridigm Atoms, hooked them up to the stereo receiver upstairs, and started playing some CDs. There was the usual "I can't believe little boxes can make that much sound" but I get that every time I hook up good bookshelf speakers to a decent amp.

What really surprised me was the "familiarity" of the sound, something I never got with the Axioms. I used to have some homebuilt 3-way boxes with Philips / DeForest drivers (the same ones PSB started off with) and always thought their imaging was something special. I pretty much followed that sound -- first PSB Betas then Rogers LS3/5as then Quads then got poor and sold everything -- and the Atoms had that same sound.

Not the wonderful detailed imaging of the Axioms where you can distinguish two sounds 12" apart on the stage, but a simple, blatant kind of imaging. Play "Time" off Dark Side of the Moon and listen to the "tick tock tick tock tick tock..." that runs through most of the song. On Axioms the sound is clear but not very precisely imaged, but on the Atoms (and my older speakers) it's like all the other sounds are pared away somehow and the "ticktock" is floating starkly and clearly above everthing else.

Humour me, it's hard to describe sound sensations at least for me

Anyways, the Atoms had that same familiar sound and the same familiar effect on "Time". I used to think it was an indication of superior imaging but know I'm starting to suspect it is just an artifact of a slightly uneven frequency response emphasizing the "tick tock" sound in that song.

Where do the M3s come in you ask ? I had always thought of my Rogers boxes as being "as flat as they come", and that was one of the reasons for picking M2s over M3s when I bought my first Axiom speakers. I looked up the Soundstage review of the Atoms and noticed that they had a slightly recessed midrange and emphasised bass/treble. Only subtle though, pretty smooth overall. The curve seemed somehow familiar -- yep, looked up the M3 measurements and they had almost exactly the same shape although the M3s went deeper and were a bit different in the upper midrange.

Interesting... maybe that was the response I was used to. Didn't explain why I liked the Rogers though, until I found some response plots for the old LS3/5as. Yep, roughly the same response curve (rising bass & treble) plus a slight dip in the 2-5 KHz range which apparently was well known as "the BBC dip".

Interesting. I still feel pretty strongly that the M2/M22/M60 family is more accurate but I'm starting to understand why people have such strong feelings for different sounding speakers, eg. the M3/M40/M50 family. There is something very "pleasant" about the sound of the Atoms (very relaxing to listen to), and my guess is that the M3s would give the same sound plus more detail and bass extension. Almost tempted to try a pair and see.

The Axioms are still in a different league in terms of detail and "involvement" in the music. Listening to a Diana Krall studio album (look of love ?) on the Paradigms is nice, but listening to the same album at the same volume on M2s somehow seems much more intimate and detailed.

I haven't had time to directly A/B the Atoms and the M2s but will try to do that some time in the next couple of weeks. My current thinking is that the Atoms do a better job of reproducing the sound of my old, much loved, imperfect speakers but I'm guessing that the slight emphasis in the frequency response curve is a big factor in why they sound so good for casual listening.

Trying to avoid getting ANOTHER pair of Axioms to try out. The darn things are like Tribbles, my house is filling up with them ;(

I have tribbles. I have 18 Axiom made speakers. Gave 4 away (pair of M3s and a pair of M60 like speakers) sold 4 Axioms - pair of M50s and a pair of M22s. 2 are in my basement laboratory getting tweaked. Total of 30 Axiom made speakers have made their way into my house.

Of the Axiom labeled speakers I've owned - M50s, M22s, M3s, M2es, QS8s, the M3s were my favorite. Except for that audible dip you were talking about, they are close to a perfect speaker.

I seem to also be joining the axiom excess club, I have had or still have the following:
m60's
m22's
m3's
vp150
qs8's

I find the m60’s irreplaceable
The m3's a decent little speaker
The m22's......not for me
The vp150.....not for me
The qs8’s.....not for me

I think the m3's can be better compared to the paradigm mini monitors, although it’s not much of a comparison. Not to take anything away from the m3's, they are a nice speaker, I just think the mini's are on another level.

Bottom line. You don’t know unless you audition in your own home, axiom is awesome for their 30 day policy and make some great products. In the end let your ears be the judge.

Hay Guy's,
I'm not to far behind with my list. I have 13teen.. I Love these things..

Lee, I'll bet you have more Axioms in your house than Ian has at the factory! No wonder it's taking you so long.

OK, finally got a chance to A/B the M2s against the Atoms. That was a bit of a shock.

For the last month or so I have been running the Atoms as an upstairs / bedroom system with my old HK stereo receiver and a megachanger. My first impressions were really good -- a very familiar sound relative to my old Philips DeForest 3 way home-built speakers, and on a couple of very familiar tracks (eg. Time off DSOTM) it seemed that the imaging was even sharper than the M60s and M2s. Never had a chance to A/B until this weekend.

First impression when I replaced the Atoms with M2s was "mixed blessings" -- the M2s reproduced instruments more accurately (I can run down a flight of stairs and compare against the real thing) but the sound was less full and maybe even a bit "thin". I tried to discount the LF roll-off since the Atoms have a bit of a peak around 100Hz but didn't really know how to do that.

So... out comes the speaker wire; now I have the Atoms and M2is side by side, roughly 24" off the ground, fronts of the speaker baffles aligned and just ahead of the edge of the stands (well, the piles of speaker boxes).

M2is are on the left on A, Atoms on the right on B, so I have to move my head left and right a few inches to keep the same position relative to the speakers. Sitting on the floor in front of the receiver; truly a bad listening position but the best I can do on short notice.

Starting with FM (local jazz & classical stations) in mono, one channel only. The two speakers sound noticably different. The Atoms always seem to have "something going on" around a few hundred hz, almost like another group tuning up in the background, while the Axioms sound like a small group of close-miked musicians with no studio ambience. Beginning to suspect there's some resonance going on with the Atoms -- they're starting to get that "cheap boomy speaker" sound compared to the M2s.

There is also a noticeable efficiency difference. My level control isn't marked in dB but I have to turn the dial up about 10 degrees with the M2s to keep the same perceived volume.

OK, let's listen to that "ticktockticktock" sound in "Time" off DSOTM. Given that the M2s generally seem to have fantastic imaging, I couldn't figure out why the Atoms seemed to image that particular sound so much better than the M2s.

A-HA !! At the same overall volume that "ticktock" sound is quite a bit LOUDER on the Atoms than on the M2s. The sound seems to line up with some kind of response peak on the Atom. Fiddle the volume so the perceived ticktock SPL is the same and the imaging advantage goes away. Hmmmm.

The Atoms still sound more clear on a few tracks. On "The best is yet to come" (Lori Cullen, "So Much") the song starts with a lazy bass line and the string sound is more natural on the Atoms. I'm starting to suspect that the response peaks on the Atoms are peaking up the string bass and electric bass sounds, just like whatever little response peaks the M2 has seem to be perfect for female vocals.

The more I switch back and forth the more I'm liking the M2s. One more big surprise left though. The Atoms always seemed to somehow to expand the dynamic range compared to the Axioms, ie there seemed to be more distinction between lound and quiet sections, particularly subtle note-by-note emphasis.

The surprise was that when I listened to the same passage on the M2s, it wasn't that the Atoms did a *better* job of reproducing subtle loudness differences, it was that the Atoms were *introducing* those differences via peaks and bumps in the frequency response (at least that's the only explanation I could think of). The M2s reproduced dynamic differences just fine, but some of the variation I heard on the Atoms simply wasn't there AT ALL on the M2s.

OK, now I'm not sure what to think. The Atoms are pretty highly regarded but compared to the M2s they don't really seem to be in the same league. I'm also having a bit of a problem understanding where that "pleasant" thing is coming from. I suspect that the slight boominess in the upper bass lets you get the same percieved volume at a lower actual SPL so everything sounds a bit smoother, but not sure.

OK, let's break out the serious tests. "Meddle" (Pink Floyd, "Echoes") starts with very high piano notes, wasn't sure if the piano has been "prepared" or not. On the Axioms the sound is loud and annoying -- on the Atoms it's not so bad. Then again, I have ALWAYS hated the sound you get when you whack the top few keys on even a freshly tuned piano. Go downstairs and play a few loud high notes on the piano. Cringe. Hmmm. Make a note to get the piano tuned. Inconclusive

Anyways, the more I A/B them the less I'm liking the Atoms. Wish I had the time to either measure the responses I'm getting or look at the incoming signal through a spectrum analyzer to figure out what frequencies are being emphasized. Now I don't know what to think about M3s -- whether the characteristics I don't like about the Atoms are related to the response curve shared by Atoms and M3s, or whether the M3s would have all of the good things without the bad.

I'm probably going to have to try a pair of M3s to know for sure. Maybe Mansfield Beech this time.

Auggh. Is there a number I can call when I'm about to buy more speakers where someone will come over and talk me out of it ?

I can't imagine that anyone on this board would be any help... I can just hear it now... "John, push the Submit button, push the button, you know you want them, jump, jump, jump..."

Wow, great posts today! Thanks for sharing that. I don't think I've been as interested in the actual speaker discussions for a long time before reading these posts today (Mark's and John's).

<edit>

Have you considered the M22s?

>>Have you considered the M22s?

Auggh !!! NO, NO, NO MORE SPEAKERS !!

I really should be selling speakers, not buying them. I have a new house being built out in the country and am trying to save all my pennies to pay for that. Once I move and sell this house I guess I can afford to re-start my speaker habit but until then I'm going to try to be frugal.

Maybe factory outlet M22s

Jeez John. I really enjoyed that. Got a particularly enjoyable laugh from:

"OK, let's break out the serious tests. "Meddle" (Pink Floyd, "Echoes") starts with very high piano notes, wasn't sure if the piano has been "prepared" or not. On the Axioms the sound is loud and annoying -- on the Atoms it's not so bad. Then again, I have ALWAYS hated the sound you get when you whack the top few keys on even a freshly tuned piano. Go downstairs and play a few loud high notes on the piano. Cringe. Hmmm. Make a note to get the piano tuned. Inconclusive .

thanks for the review bridgeman. i had the atom's on my initial 'want to buy' list. glad i was eventually moved toward the axioms.

i found the imaging and soundstage on the M1ti's to be rather impressive myself, although i never compared them to another set of bookshelves. i think we might be on to something here?

bigjohn