Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater AB Comparison - Axiom M60 & Wharfedale Evo 30

Mike:
I'm not refuting your points or being argumentative. Really, I think you make a reasonable argument.

But, it is true that the one standard industry-wide is a double-blind comparison of two pieces of equipment with their levels matched exactly. In this case, your comparison does not meet those standard criteria.

I honestly don't know if the "louder is better" argument would show up as detail, timbre, "boxiness" or whatever... I don't know how it manifests itself. Maybe those characteristics are how a slightly or softer or louder speaker presents itself. I really don't know.

As far as the efficiency ratings go, it's frequently mentioned in magazine tests that speakers do not meet the efficiency ratings that the manufacturer provides. That's another variable thrown in that could very easily result in a volume mismatch.

Testing only in that one room could skew the results as Alan said. Maybe the Axiom has a slight rise at a certain frequency that the room emphases, or the Wharfedale has a shortcoming that the room "masks" a bit. Again, I'm not saying that's the case, but it is a factor.

The Wharfedale sounds like an excellent speaker. Is it better than the Axiom? I dunno... it might be...especially for your preferences. But without that standard, matched double blind, no one could say for sure.

I know it sounds like I'm picking on you. I'm really not. I applaud your excellent review…. We need more reviews here! It sounds like you had a good listening session and found a speaker that you prefer in those circumstances, and very possibly in your home as well... But Alan's points are correct that what you heard and the results you reported may not be accurate.

It's not a matter of who's right; it's a matter of finding the equipment that you prefer, and it's very likely you've done just that.

KC_Mike,

Yes, the "detail" you may hear in a speaker that is very slightly louder will indeed disappear when its volume is reduced, even by a fraction of a dB relative to the other speaker.

If you prefer the Wharfedales, that's fine. They may be building good speakers now. I have not heard them in a careful comparison so I can't comment.

But the reason you cannot use published sensitivity figures is that unless Wharfedale adhered to industry standards in doing an anechoic measurement of sensitivity (SPL at 1 watt, 1 metre, anechoic), which it appears they did not, then you cannot make those comparisons and assume the sensitivity of each speaker is identical. Furthermore, the off-axis dispersion at all frequencies and the absorption/reflection of a particular room will affect the speakers' relative sensitivities, which is why you have to use a pink noise signal in that particular room with the measurement mike at your listening position to equalize volume levels within a fraction of a dB.

Such seemingly inconsequential variables may, in fact, cause you to choose one speaker over the other. Now, it could be that the Wharfedale is a very good speaker and a fair competitor of the Axiom M60, which might put it into the category of what, in the past, I've termed "similarly good."

These are often two speakers which, although not identical sounding, are suffiently close that your preferences may change with each musical selection--or listening location. In any case, this cannot be resolved without a blind and controlled comparison. If you prefer the Wharfedales in your test, that is entirely your choice. I simply wanted to point out the variables that may influence or change preferences when comparisons are conducted under less than optimal conditions.

Regards,

Mike, ditto what bigjohn said. What you hear is what you hear and don't let anybody tell you any different. Bravo!

I am going to agree with Alan on this point.

I have come across speakers with the same efficiency ratings....and when played back on the same equipment, the loudness was very different.

In the end, I am glad you found what you want. I just want to make sure people understand the importance of some setup items when comparing speakers. Sound level is crucial.

Now....I heard some Evo's last year....they sounded good and looked good too.

I didn't mean to be defensive, but perhaps I was a little.

Mostly, I was simply skeptical if minor SPL level could change things such as detail, etc. I hoped Alan would reply and explain whether or not it can account for any difference (which he did).

I was also glad Alan touched on the efficiency topic. It would be nice to know how Wharfedale arrived at their figure (anechoic, etc.).

In reply to:

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I didn't mean to be defensive, but perhaps I was a little

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It didn't come across that way to me. I think you stated your side of the debate elequantly! It's all good!

I agree with Alan about the loudness, and also about different speakers not matching their published efficiency specs.

In a recent extensive test I compared M60s to $12000 Meadowlark Blue Heron 2 speakers:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=Advice&Number=73201 (sorry, can't get hot link HTML to work).

The test wasn't blind, but I used pink noise and a meter to normalize the volume.

The M60s had a better efficiency rating, but at a given power level the Meadowlarks were louder on the meter. I assume Axiom's numbers were correct, but Meadowlark just underrated theirs. It was a very significant difference -- about 4.5db at normal listening levels.

For the first few tests I didn't normalize the volume and the M60s sounded absolutely puny -- muddy, blurry, etc. Then I fixed the levels and it was a more even match, although the Meadowlarks were better to most listeners (though not all) on most material. At that price they'd better be.

Speaker choice is very personal. Speakers truly do have different sound. If you are happy with one make/model, then get that.

However when doing stereo A/B comparisions some basic steps must be taken:

- All amp DSP modes should be disabled. Ideally use "direct stereo", or "pure direct stereo".

- Don't use a subwoofer. Otherwise you have to somehow match relative sub levels for each speaker, and somehow switch when doing the A/B switch.

- Normalize volume levels using pink noise and a meter. Actually this will be different at different volume levels.

- Doing a fair A/B test of two 5.1 systems (not stereo) seems extremely difficult. Much more complicated than stereo, since you can't use "direct stereo" modes to quickly defeat DSP, digital time arrival, EQ, plus must worry about subwoofer crossover, etc. If using analog high-res sources (SACD, DVD-A), that's yet another variable.

I was going through a similar comparison between CD players -- actually between my CD and DVD players with the same CD. I was convinced that the DVD player sounded MUCH better (more "open", clearer vocals, better bass, yadda yadda) until Alan gave me the "match the SPL" lecture. Went back and marked the volume control with the right settings for the players and twiddled the volume at the same time I hit the source switch -- wouldn't you know it, nearly ALL the differences went away. In my case the difference was just over 2dB.

When I was A/B-ing between M2 and M60 I ran into the same thing (only the difference was more like 4dB) -- if I didn't match the levels exactly the louder speaker (M60) sounded all-round better. I would never have believed it.

I know you can't go back and repeat the tests, we're just trying to say "don't underestimate how much difference the level settings can make".

Anyways, don't lie awake at night wondering if you got the wrong speakers or anything, there are other good reviews of the Evo 30s on the net. Sounds like Wharfedale did a good job with these.

KC, it may be that Axiom overstates how loud their speakers are - when doing A/B comparisons between M3s and a slew of competitors, none were less loud (more quiet?) than the Axioms.

In the in-store demo room that would seem to be the key to sales - being louder, therefore better, than everybody else. Wharfedale has to take that into consideration, while Axiom does not (to some extent).

I haven't heard those Evo 30s, but Axiom M60s are excellent speakers that will keep you glued to the sweet spot of your couch for many months as you rediscover your CD collection. Do what you think is best, but please report back months from now with any updates to your findings.

Good Luck.

KC Mike, thank you for such an interesting and detailed post. This is very interesting to me about the discussion of what can cause bias or affect perception in A/B testing. It is striking to me that many consumers (I am only guessing here) choose speakers based on A/B/C etc comparisons in those screening rooms of electronics stores (I've always done it that way). Of all the electronics store I've visited no store has offered me an SPL meter. Looks to me like KCMike has made a very careful study (even more so than) the same way that most people chose between different speakers. The loudness factor really makes sense to me. Should we bring SPL meters to B&M stores while we stand in those A/B/C etc. cockpits?