Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Pioneer Elite 45TX vs Denon 3803 vs Onkyo TX-SR800

You guys have any comments on these 3 receivers? I think they are all very close in price, about 850-900 online. I hear the Denon has problems with it's video upsampling. I've heard nothing bad about the other two so far.

Dan, I'll comment that the MCACC feature on the 45TX might be the deciding factor. You might check the discussion on the AVSforum.com board about this.

I have one area of caution regarding the Pioneer 45TX...RESERVE POWER. I have the Pioneer brochure that completely specs out their receivers. When I read the specs on the 49TX(Pioneers 'flagship' model)I noticed the power rating is 160W at 6 ohms and 130W at 8 ohms. This is their flagship model which I don't think represents a good power reserve. Odds are that the 45TX performs similar....or maybe even worse. In fact, Pioneer does not offer 6 ohm specs for the 45TX, but they do for the 49TX. Kinda makes one wonder.

As an afterthought, have you researched the Marantz SR7300? You might want to consider researching this receiver well. It is in the same league as the others you mentioned and you can find it from an authorized dealer on the net for around $850-900. I also like the Crestron remote that comes with this receiver. Just my two cents.

I'll echo the Marantz suggestion in addition to the new Integra (near as I can tell, it's the same unit as the Onkyo). Listen to them all.

The Denon, however, has the ability to upconvert S-Video and Composite Video to Component and output it all via one component monitor cable. This is a very convenient feature when setting up your system as it allows you to change sources with much more simplicity.

Regards,
Semi

KC, you have echoed my previous comments about the pioneer receivers (posted sometime last week).
For a rather expensive 'Elite' model, their specs are somewhat suspect (or perhaps feeble is a better word) when compared to other brands in a similar price range. Who owns a $2400+ (msrp cdn) receiver that doesn't support (at least in the whitepaper specs) powering a 4 ohm speaker?
Although i find the sound of Pioneers' receivers to be just fine, i've also been told by some electronics repair guys that in general the build quality is really not that good.
Considering how ridiculously hot these receivers can get, it only supports this hypothesis.

Great advice guys, I'll definitely look at the Marantz as well. I haven't heard many bad things about Pioneer Elite on avsforum, but have heard about the Denon 3803 video conversion displaying something like a de-sync or ground loop problem. That worries me. I've also read that many consumer grade receivers do not meet specs as far as advertised wattage, Onkyo, Denon, and a few others, although H/K usually does. But I think H/K runs hotter than Pioneer. I wrote an e-mail to Ascend Acoustics because their speakers are 4 ohm rated and they said many customers use the Elites, which have a 6 ohm setting, but no 4 ohm, with no problems.

Just curious; but have you considered Rotel? I was looking at some of their products and they seem very nice But if you want more than 5 channels; youd probably have to get the higher end Rotel and a seperate stereo amp for the extra back two; it seems rotel only powers 5 - Or then again you could just stick with the Denon or the others you are considering Happy hunting

DanTana,
As i mentioned, the Pioneer receivers are not spec'd for 4 ohm speakers offiicially, but do you really want to use such a receiver for that purpose anyway?
If you have not seen forum reviews about how hot Pioneer receivers get, then you should continue to peruse other forums. Sometimes single forums are biased towards one or more products, much like this forum would be heavily biased towards Axioms speakers being the best above all others.
We started to cook an egg on a Pioneer receiver back in university (although it was running for about 7 hours straight on a rather high volume but that egg had started to cook i tell you). Just offhand some people may say how hot a receiver gets is not indicative of its performance but based on past experience, it is essential to control heat around/with electronics.

As for the wattage, there are few receivers out there in the standard consumer price range that can actually do what their specifications are rated. Most especially the wattage per channel. H/K is by NO means an exception to this.
If i can find the website where someone did a test with a meter, you will see that the more speakers plugged into the receivers, the greater the decrease in wattage per channel (some much more than others). If you are looking for a spec that says more than most about this, try to find something that has tested the wattage with all 5/6/7 channels driven over the entire frequency range of 20hz-20khz.

Was that an Elite receiver that had gotten that hot? I love the MCACC I think it's called. Automatically configures the entire speaker setup for you. But I wasn't stuck to Pioneer as yet. I started to look at Marantz and that is a nice remote with the 8200. I would probably get the lowly Kenwood VR-6070 if it had OSD. A magazine tested it's output at 92 out of a rated 100 watts. And overall great reviews on it.

I don't recall the model of the Pioneer although it was manufactured mid-1990s. But again, don' let the names (advertising) fool you. The Pioneer "Elite" line of receivers are virtually no different than the 'high end' of their non-elite series.
I was auditioning Pioneer myself about 9 months ago and i recalled this hot receiver experience. So i went to a local audioshop and took a look at the Pioneer receivers (i did like many things about them) and i had a listen (with some B&W 603s which i was also auditioning at the time before i chose Axioms). Sure enough, that receiver had probably been turned on since the store opened in the morning but for the whole 10 minutes it was in use while i was playing some music it got quite hot. Far more hot than i would want a receiver to get. Heck, summer is hot enough in Western Canada. I certainly don't need a receiver cranking up the heat in my nice and cool basement by several degrees and i certainly do not want my amp to burn out because it has a sorry excuse for heat dissipation.
Basically my impression of the incredibly warm Pioneers still stands, now based on 2 experiences with them, but as i mentioned, this has nothing to do with my opinion about how they sound or the options they have onboard. I'm still a little surprised at the lack of official support for 4ohm speakers though, especially for the amount of cash you can pay for the Elite lineup.

I have demoed the Onkyo Integra 7.3, Rotel RSX 1055 and Rotel RSX 1065. All were outstanding. Yes they have only power for 5 speakers but all have pre-outs for adding extra power amps for a 6.1 or 7.1. You can go all pre-outs and setup all separates if you want. Rotel has an edge where-in when they say that their power rating is 75W or 100W they are truly 75W or 100W on 5 speakers. The Onkyo had more features but when Sound & Vision Mag did tests the 100W ran about 78W on all speakers driven. Music quality on Rotels are always clean clear and powerful. I would recommend them. I have the Rotel RSX 1065. It runs only warm after 5 hours of music and 2 movies back to back. THe only issue I have with Rotels are they are damn heavy. So move it to one spot and never move it again.
The Elite series as commented by some high end shops only good with the lines of DVD players and TV Plasmas.

Chessaroo wrote:
"As for the wattage, there are few receivers out there in the standard consumer price range that can actually do what their specifications are rated. Most especially the wattage per channel. H/K is by NO means an exception to this."

I think the only reason Harman/Kardon might be an exception about meeting its printed specs is that their printed specs are much more modest (honest?) than comparably-priced models from other manufacturers. I'm no expert, but when I was shopping for my receiver, the H/K AVR120 rated at 40wpc into 5 speakers seemed just as clear and loud as other big box brands (Pioneer, JVC) rated at twice that amount or more.

Jandrew,
Herein lies the problem. You describe the AVR120 as having 40W/channel over 5 as the spec.
But has this been tested?
After all 5 channels have been plugged in, what is the watts per channel measured at? Across all frequencies?
I'm going out on a limb and guessing it won't be holding steady at 40W per channel, which is the scenario that typically occurs from many vendors who state any specs about wattage on their receivers (i have seen some tests but i can't find the damn links).

In theory and on whitepapers the receivers are designed for meeting such spec levels, but in practice, they usually fall behind. That's why i mentioned having to read between the lines a bit when reviewing specs stated too simply as "100w (or 40W) over 5 channels" as opposed to "100W over 5 channels, all channels driven across 20hz-20khz....." .
One statement is good marketing and relatively honest but the second statement is honest and more accurate as well.

How about the Sony STR-DA4ES? Specs look great, 7.1 pre-outs, OSD, video conversion. H/K I notice always seems to be low, but when you look at their specs for 5.1-7.1 distortion rating is almost exactly the same as the 2 channel rating. I think that shows a good amplifier section.

I have a huge bias against Sony. My experience with their reliability has been terrifying enough to prevent me from every buying a product with a Sony logo unless I absolutely had to have a CRT based TV and found a Vega at a killer rate.

I know you hate Sony's Semi, but have they done anything positive to increase reliability on the ES models? I was impressed that their output with all 7 channels was rated with very low distortion, just like the H/K's are. I found an H/K 525 for like 650.00, but I am leary of their reliability also. When reading audioreview about JVC seems every other one has been in the shop If I could find the Marantz 8200 for about 600.00 I'd be go that route, but they are around $1000.00. Audiogon doesn't seem to have alot of mid-range equipment, and I can't afford the high end stuff. One feature about Sony I liked is that the sub can be powered very well by the receiver itself. I could get that SVS with no amp that way

Dan, I didn't see where the DA4ES has an assignable amp channel which can be used to power a passive sub. The Kenwood 6070 has such a 6th channel, but if it's used to power a sub, then the 6th channel isn't available for the back surround. If you'd like to go in that direction though, it's likely that you already have an amp to power, say, a SVS 25-31CS. Your present receiver or some old receiver that has 100 watts or so per channel would be fine to power it. The sub out from whatever new receiver you get would go to any line-level input(e.g. CD)on the old receiver and then a speaker wire from the corresponding speaker terminals on the old receiver would go to the terminals on the passive sub.

Has anyone checked out the new Harman Kardon AVR-525?

Can I ask you how much your Rotel pieces cost? I was looking at the RSX-972 but Ive read some lovely stories about quality control and it scared me away from that brand; even though it is the sweetest sound receiver Ive ever heard

I'd like to throw the Harman Kardon AVR-525 into the mix. Has HDCD and MP3 encoding built-in, but no DTS 96/24. Is DTS 96/24 a feature I should want for future compatibility? Otherwise I hear nothing but good on it's sound qualities. My DVD player has 192/24 capable bitstream, the manual says I need a receiver with 192/24 capable DAC to take advantage of it, so I crossed the Kenwood VR-6070 off my list. I haven't heard any Onkyo supporters here either, the 800 is rated as a best buy on CNet's site, but I take that with a grain of salt.

I would have to say, based on my talk with my local electrician. I asked him about recievers before I bought mine, and he told me to STAY AWAY from Pioneer for sure, and possibly Sony and Kenwood. Mainly because these companies have gone to a center block style, where all your Receivers amplifiers are peaced as one piece in the Center. Meaning, if one amp goes bad, you have to replace them all! And this ends up costing about as much or more, then the whole reciever. So if yours goes bad, throw it in the trash and pull out your wallet for a new one. I opted for a New Denon AVR-3300 and have been promissed its a good Reciever. I got it brand New for $450 2 weeks ago, and just bought my Axiom system which will be here Tuesday! Can't wait!! Well thats my two cents! I would recommend everyone, to talk to some of your local electricians before buying products. These guys know as mush as the guys who make the things, as they work on them everyday! They can always offer some knowlege we would never know otherwise!