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Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79285 01/28/05 06:47 AM
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Mark, I rarely agree with pmbuko, but I ran away screaming. I don't think you should ever go back into that room again.

So much for testing speakers in anechoic chambers!!

Try painting the door red.

That having been said, I don't think your room would look like a place of human habitation if you did what you must to damp those evil harmonics. I'm looking at what happens at 60, 250, 800 and 2.6K Hz, and wonder if you've been playing with any singularities?

Also interesting are those wild peaks at 50, 100, and 3K - 8K

I don't know how you'd "tune" that room - damp it at 50, 100 and 3K-8K, and pump it up at the other frequencies.

Maybe you should get an equalizer.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79286 01/28/05 07:29 AM
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axiomite
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Ahh, here we go. Build your own bass traps. Electronic Musician was such a great magazine.

"There are many different types of bass trap designs, and this one is as effective as any. It is particularly well-suited for small rooms because the traps protrude very little--the thickest unit is only four inches deep. A two-foot width was chosen because it yields two traps from each sheet of plywood with no waste."

http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html

I don't think these would be so bad. They're big but they don't look like seven headed aliens or anything. Cubic footage is about the same as an EP600 and I don't think you would tell FedEx to take one of THOSE back if it showed up at your door.

I would be building a couple of these puppies right now if I wasn't moving in six months to a new house where the room dimensions were all run through a mode calculator before signing off the drawings

Might have to build them anyways. My room isn't much better than Mark's -- not square but pretty much 2:1 so same effect just a little less evil.


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79287 01/28/05 02:35 PM
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OK, I'm feeling a bit guilty because some of you (John, in particular) are taking time to help me through this, but basing much of it on a "test" graph, not one from the actual listening position. Remember that first graph was something of a test to try to analyze a difference in speaker distance from the wall and was measured with something more akin to a "close-mic" method. Some of the details that apply to that particular graph may not be indicative of what I'm getting from the sweetspot.

So…….

This morning I plotted a new graph (from the sweetspot) for the Left and Right M60s, with my sub engaged at a 100Hz crossover, but varying whether the receiver was set to "Large" or "Small".





I think it's interesting what you can see from a graph like this.

***You can tell that the right speaker, being close to a wall (in comparison to the "Left" being away from a sidewall) really interacts in the bass when set to "large".

***It's interesting that no matter what the setting, there are certain areas (like 44Hz and 70-80Hz) that have similar patterns whether the sub is handling them or the sub WITH the M60.

***I also found it interesting that the graphs for "small" and "large" settings, crossed over at 100Hz, don’t actually meet up until 200Hz. A more gradual slope on the upper end of the crossover than I would have thought.

I really have to go get some editing done for a client coming in this afternoon, but here's a promise: This weekend, I absolutely, positively will finish that gigantic article and put it all to bed. Except the MX-700. I may not get to that just 'cuz it drives Ray up the wall!

Thanks again to everyone- John, I printed your "math" post and will be reading it more carefully later today! Regarding the bass traps, I'm familiar with them, but I might have a WAF to consider there. I've read that a couple of large bags of towels, blankets, etc. in a corner of the room can work wonders- maybe I'll play with that a bit this weekend! Funny thing is, I have a corner behind the sectional where those would not even be visible!



::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79288 01/28/05 05:59 PM
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That's a neat and beautiful installation, except, of course, for the speaker grills, which belong in the attic.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79289 01/29/05 05:26 AM
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I am curious to see if having a auto calibrating system like the Pioneer Elite and Yamaha may correct the peaks and throughs. Maybe you can borrow a friends receiver which has those functions.
That being said I was wondering if those systems actually tame the peaks and level off the freq response for your rooms.

I remember the days when I was chastised by the long standing "experts" of this forum about using systems like my MCACC of the Elite or YPAO of the Yamaha that adjust the "supposedly" flat frequency curve these speaker inherit. Surely flat in an anocholic chamber but not in our regular rooms.
MarkSJohnson's listening room is pretty much not much different that the rest of your rooms. Maybe even most of you are actually NOT getting this supposedly "flat" frequency response from the Axioms. For those individuals who own and have used those Auto calibrating receivers get a nice flat response in thier HT/music environment.
It is sad that I normally don't join in any audio debates anymore due to closed minded "experts" that have not looked further into the benefits of new audio technology. As the saying goes 'Its hard to teach an old dog new tricks'
I applaud 2x4 for challenging their dogmas.



Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79290 01/29/05 07:40 AM
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I'll tell you what, Saturn:
I'll run that test in the morning and post the results.

I have a Denon 3805 that has an auto-calibration function, and I've never liked the sound of the EQs that it provided (though it's a quick and easy way to let it set everything as a starting point).

It will be interesting to post an original plot overlaid with the plots of it's 3 or 4 auto EQ settings!


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79291 01/29/05 07:54 AM
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Great, Mark. Despite your lack of enthusiasm about the previous results, it should be interesting to see what the curves look like.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79292 01/29/05 01:31 PM
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I miss ya!


I live the life I love and I love the life I live.
Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79293 01/29/05 02:21 PM
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axiomite
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Well, one thing is obvious from this graph. If you could set your speakers to "medium" the sound would be great

Seriously, it looks like the sub is not receiving signal when you are set to "large", ie the bass rolls off where the M60 rolls off, doesn't go any deeper. Is that how your receiver is set up, or is the M60 putting out a higher bass level than the sub ?

EDIT -- I don't suppose you could post a crude sketch of the room layout (doors etc..) so we could move your equipment around for you ? After staring at the graph for a few minutes the first thing that jumps out is that (as you mentioned) minimizing interaction with the walls seems to be a particularly good thing in your room.

First thing I would try is sticking the left M60 on the far side of the equipment alcove (nice setup there by the way) and shifting everything to the left a bit. Don't have it exactly centered on the wall but pretty close.

If that doesn't work for some reason is there another wall you could use ? At least all the walls are the same size...

In case you are starting to despair, you are doing exactly the right things here. A massive amount of testing and thinking, coupled with a significant amount of reading and discussing, resulting in some small, non-obvious change which in hindsight you can't believe you didn't try before


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Advice on Freq. Resp. (Wide Photo!!)
#79294 01/29/05 03:35 PM
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In reply to:

I'll tell you what, Saturn:
I'll run that test in the morning and post the results.

I have a Denon 3805 that has an auto-calibration function, and I've never liked the sound of the EQs that it provided (though it's a quick and easy way to let it set everything as a starting point).

It will be interesting to post an original plot overlaid with the plots of it's 3 or 4 auto EQ settings!




Mark: Maybe you do not like the sound of speakers that have a flat frequency response(after calibration).

I find it refreshing that you actually have laid out a real scenerio setup and quantified that the frequency response was NOT flat.

mwc: Hugs and kisses. I see that you have upped to the 1.6. Even after my Ushers .. I will be going back to planers. The midrange of planers still "to me" can't be beat by any speaker. When I sell my Ushers I will be getting the 1.6 or higher. Yes it does not have a flat frequency response. And yes it has a 60-80hz accentuated bass hump. But they sound phenominal.

To the self proclaimed "experts":
Hey boys...all those years you guys have been preaching to me and others that your Axioms has a flat frequency (yes in a controlled environment in Ottawa) has actually been bouncing all over the place. I'm not not an Axiom hater. I own and have used many of the models and love them. I just find lots of bias towards individuals who jump in and says the recent audition of Dynaudio, Magnepan, Revel speakers sound better than your Axioms. You get offended and give them a hard time. Yes they cost more two, three time more ... but its just what they observed.




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