Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners should I buy an ep500 subwoofer

My system is only for music. I bought 2 M60ti speakers a couple of weeks ago. I had a 20 years Rotel Receiver and the fuses blew out on the night I received my Axiom's. I bought a Denon DRA-685 that same night. The next day, I changed the fuses and the Rotel started playing again. I will put the Rotel in my room and will be looking for speakers for it later on... My MI60 sound awesome with my new Denon, very powerful. Now, I want to get a subwoofer and I need advise. I have been spending evenings reading many posts on this wonderful site. I have learned a lot but am a bit confused. Eventually, I hope, I will have something intelligent to say but for know I need your advice. I read a lot about calibrating subs but don't think I can do it myself. So my question is, would I be better off buying a subwoofer from a retailer nearbuy, say a Paradigm PW-2100 and have them set it up for me or should I plunge and buy a EP500? I would prefer to buy the EP500 because the cabinet finish is much nicer but it may not be that important. My system is on the main floor and the house is recent and the main floor area is all open. I think the accoustic is quite good. Do you know of anyone in the North Montreal that could eventually help me with this setup?

Welcome Colleen

I'm jealous, I wish I was thinking about getting an EP500, but I just got my EP350 not that long ago, and not sure I could convince the boss (wife) Anyway, you could check the "Auditioning in your Area" thread in the Questions and answers area to see if there is anybody close to assist. I don't think our going to have a problem, more than likely you'll be able to plug that puppy in and enjoy. It is not rocket science

good luck on your selection.

ps: the EP500 and 600 are just tooooo cool....

Randy

Colleen, welcome. You indicate that you're a little confused and uncertain about calibrating a sub, but don't indicate specifically what's concerning you. Calibrating basically just involves setting the sub level control so that the sub level is about equal to the level of the M60s and isn't so loud that it draws attention to itself as a separate sound source. Lots of people simply do this by ear, although that often results in the sub being set too high because they want to "hear" what they paid for. Better is to use a meter, such as the one from RadioShack, to balance the sound. This isn't terribly complicated and I don't really think that the setup procedure should dictate what you buy.

Thanks Sirquack and JohnK. You know I am very excited about being here with all of you wonderful people. I've always liked listening to music but now with these monitors I'm blowed away, I don't want to miss out on anything. I certaintly do not want to ear what I paid for, especially from a sub. I just want to make sure I can get the most out of my system.

Welcome Colleen! I just upgraded from the ep350 the 500 and cannot say enough good things about it. Simply put, it lends itself well to both music and movies. The area it sits in is really a combination of three rooms - formal living that opens up to breakfast area in back; left side is wall; right side opens up to sitting area. All in all from front to back measures 37', right to left measures 45', with 9' ceilings, giving this monster plenty of room to breath. Having said that, if I only listened to music, I would not have upgraded as the 350 was perfect for my listen habbits. But where it fell short was in HT, just could not go low enough. I quess what I am saying is if you only want a sub for music and having a matching finish in important, you might want to audition the 350. But whatever route you chose, you won't be disappointed in either one.

Good luck!

Hi Colleen,
Welcome!
I just bought some M60s, along with an EP350, SV150, M2i's and Qs8's and am just amazed with all.
I will probably get shouted down by the Sub Freaks on these pages, but I cannot imagine needing anything more than the EP350 brings to the table.
My listening is split pretty evenly between music and movies, and the 350 blends beautifully with the M60's on music, and gives me everthing that I could want for Home Theater. I have a pretty big room, 28X16 w/ vaulted ceilings at the end where the stereo is set up.
The 350 plays plenty loud when I want it to in HT, and I just turn it down a bit when I'm just listening to music.
The set up, with the Radio Shack sound meter and the Avia calibration disc, couldn't be easier, but I was quite surprised at how close to my final settings on the sub I was compared to just doing it by ear. (The calibration on the Qs8's on the other hand really did make quite a difference!)
The one thing that did make a difference, and that I had always thought to be counter-intuitive, was to make sure that I had the main speakers set to the "small" setting on my reciever, which in my case means that everything below 90 hz (?) is sent to the Sub. I had always thought that if my speakers were big enough that there was no reason not to let them go as low as they could go. But setting them to "small" really made a big difference in how well the M60s and the EP350 blended together.
Anyway, this was more a post to let you know that there are indeed people out there that have a 350, and think it does a great job, in contrast to some of the sub freaks out there who can never get enough!
Of course, if money is no object, you can always buy the 500, and just not turn it up as much!
I'll sign off now and wait for the howling from the Sub Monsters to commence! ;-)
TjB

Hi Colleen, and welcome to the nicest audio board on the planet.

I also have EP350 and couldn't be happier. I'll just echo all of Seabear's comments.

Now that they are using the newer driver in the 350 I think it is even more attractive.

No matter what, you can't go wrong, it's all about individual choices and enjoying this great hobby, or should I say "addiction" .

Hi Collen. Nice to have you here. One of the things that you should consider when deciding which sub to buy, is how much air the sub will have to move. If you could give us the size of your room WxLxH, and the size of any adjoining spaces like a dining area, or foyer, which are open to your primary listening area, we'd be better able to give you some advice on which direction to go. With those dimensions we can figure the cubic footage of you space, and give you an idea of what will work in that space.

Another question is, does your receiver have a subwoofer RCA output jack. Or, would you be running speaker wire from your receiver to the sub, and then from the sub to the speakers. This would tell us whether you would be using the crossover in the receiver (if it has one) or the crossover in the subwoofer.

I'll echo JohnK's statement that balancing your sub to your Axioms is NOT complicated. I'm not familiar with your receiver, but if it has a speaker setup menu, it will probably provide some test tones. They and a Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter. would be all that is necessary to balance things.

If your receiver doesn't have test tones, something like the Sound & Vision disk would do the job. This disc will walk you through the whole process.

If you use the tones in your receiver, here are some tutorials that will give you an idea of how to do the job.

Essential Accessories: The Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter

A Quick Overview of Home Theater Calibration

And, of course, everybody here would be glad to help you in any way we can.

Hello Ajax,
My living room, where I listen to music is about 12 by 16 feet, the dining room is adjoining and mesures 11 by 10 feet. The total size of the main floor, all open space, is about 4500 cubic feet. I do not have a RCA Sub out on my receiver. So if I understand want your saying, I have to connect the sub with speaker wire to the receiver and I also have to connect the sub to both mains?
Thanks a lot,

Colleen

Just to one of the mains I believe, subwoofers are a mono signal.

Actually, you'd need to hook it up to both, along with hooking both speakers up to it. Otherwise, you only get the bass from one channel. I would recommend, rather than hooking up the speaker in/outs, that you hook up the sub to the tape out ports on your receiver (assuming you're not using them.) The downside to this is you lose volume control. But the cabling's a lot more straightforward!

Actually what you do is hook up speaker cables to the receiver just as though you were going to run them to your right and left speakers. Instead you run them to speaker terminals (high level inputs) on the back of the sub. To do this, you must have a sub that has 2 pairs of speaker terminals, one for input, one for output (the red and black pairs on the back of this sub).

some subs do NOT have these, so keep that in mind when shopping for a sub. Then you run a set of speaker wires from the high level output pair on the sub to your right and left speakers. The adjustable crossover in the sub now separates the low frequencies and sends them to the sub, and passes the rest on to your right and left mains.

I've never tried Ken's suggestion, but it might be worth giving it a shot.

Well, assuming you've correct with the cubic footage, the EP 500 would certainly be advisable, if your wallet can stand it. It DOES have the high level inputs, but I don't see any hight level outputs. This would be something to talk over with the kind folks at Axiom. They are very nice to deal with, will not try to hype you into something you don't need, and will treat you wonderfully. They're interested in satisfied customers, not making a quick sale. Just explain you're doing a stereo hookup, with no "subwoofer output" from your receiver, but you want a sub. Give them an idea of your room sizes, and they'll help you. Honest, it'll be well worth the phone call.

I have used a sub along the lines of my suggestion, but it doesn't look like that would work with the EP500. I suppose you could use a Y cable to plug it in, but I don't know that that would work properly.

You can also use the Pre-Out + Main-In along with Y adapters to connect the sub, correct? At least that's my plan for when my VTF-2 Mk2 arrives. It has sub in L/R though.

From the Denon website.DRA-685
AM/FM/FM Stereo Receiver • 100 + 100 watts RMS, 20Hz-20kHz >.05% THD • Record output selector • Pre-out and main-in jacks •

As suggested the best way to hook up EP500 would be to use the preouts from the preamp section of the reciever using some Y connectors.This way you still have use of the main volume on the reciever for the sub.

Hi Colleen, welcome.

Ajax, Seabear and others have already given you sound (ha!) advice.

My opinion is that a good mid-level sub like the EP350 would be PLENTY for your needs. Furthermore, if you are primarily listening to music (rather than watching DVD's, etc.), you may not really notice an meaningful improvement depending upon what kind of music you prefer. I had M60's for about 8 months before adding a sub and found that, while I appreciate the sub very much for movies, only certain music that I listen to is noticably improved.

A good sub is a fine thing to have. And, whether it makes economic sense for YOU is a matter of your listening habits, your room and your budget. Enjoy the M60's, they are fine speakers.

So, what kind of music DO you listen to most often?

Okay Colleen, the point's been made that the sub calibration isn't very complicated, but now the question of how to connect the sub has gotten a bit tangled-up in wires and cables. Since your 685 has no separate sub output but has both A and B sets of main output terminals, the simplest thing is to just keep the M60s connected as is(presumably to the A terminals)and to use regular speaker wire from the B terminals to the high level input terminals on the sub. Then, instead of selecting just the A output on the 685, you'd use the A+B parallel connection to drive the M60s and feed the sub a signal. Since a full-range signal would be coming into the sub, the sub's internal crossover would be set to roll off the response above a certain point(e.g.60-80Hz). Although there's sometimes a misunderstanding on the point, the sub's internal crossover doesn't affect the main speakers in any way; it just rolls off the sub on the top end.

As Jonathan and Rick mentioned, there's a way to use the pre-outs on the 685 with Y-connectors, cables, etc. to connect to the low-level input on the sub, but there's no good reason for that complication unless you'd also want to buy high-pass filters (about $25) for the main inputs to roll off the M60s below 70-80Hz.

Where do you buy high-pass filters to roll of low tones from the main speakers. I have looked all over the internet and have posted in several forums and nobody has ever been able to tell me of a product that will do this.

Darren,

You can get the high pass filters at Parts Express

Those look like they would only help if I had separates. Close, but no cigar. :-(

Do you have preouts on your reciever,if so they would work.As a matter of fact any high pass that I have seen you would need preouts on the reciever.

The only pre-outs that I have are for the zone-2. I have a Denon DRA-395 two channel receiver.

I bought the EP500 today. I will probably receive in a day or two. I called Axiom and they told me to connect the subwoofer to my 2 speakers. Jean-Claude at Axiom says it is not necessary to connect the subwoofer to the receiver. Any comment on this setup?

Colleen, it certainly isn't "necessary", but as I said before the simplest thing is to keep the M60 wires as they are and just run wires from the B terminals of your 685 to the sub. For more complication, note the discussion on using 70Hz high-pass filters to roll off the M60s below that frequency.

Colleen, as an edit I'll ask how Jean-Claude suggested that you could make that connection? Possibly he wasn't aware of your receiver.

Colleen, you'll like the EP500. For both home theater and pure music it will really add a sonic foundation. I have M60s and by themselves the base is good. But with a good subwoofer it's much better.

If you have any trouble hooking it up, just post your questions here or call Axiom.

Perhaps run cables from the speaker binding posts to the sub binding posts? It really wouldn't be (electrically) any different from running the wires from the same terminals on the reciever. I proved that to myself quite some time ago, but I'd have to redraw the diagrams. My concern is that the wiring would be incredibly messy.

Thanks Kcarlite and JohnK.
I missed the delivery of EP500 today. I will pick it up tomorrow. I will run wires from the B terminals of my receiver to my sub. It seems to be the simplest way. Why is it the same to run wires from my main speakers to my sub as running them from the receiver?

It just swaps the position of the resistors (ie speakers and sub, massively simplified) in the rather simple circuit. And since they're in parallel, I don't think the position change makes a difference. Someone who actually remembers physics could jump in here...

Colleen, as Ken implied, there's essentially no electrical difference in the two arrangements. The input impedance of the sub amplifier is so high(in the tens of thousands of ohms)that the sub draws practically no power from the receiver and just uses the signal(one form of Ohm's Law is that power equals voltage squared divided by resistance, so if resistance is tens of thousands of ohms, power used is nearly zero)and then amplifies it. Running wire from the receiver to the speaker terminals and then continuing on to the sub, although a bit awkward, is almost as if the sub wasn't there at all, as far as the speakers are concerned.