Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Axiom m80ti vs Energy Connoisseur C-7

Here's my question...
Anybody else head to head these? I just tried breaking my m80s in (running for 25-50 hours of music/TV) and then taking them to a store that has the connoisseurs and I was completely unimpressed with the Axioms. Considering everyone LOVES their axioms, is there anything that might be wrong with the speakers I received or in the setup? The speakers were switched back and forth with a 1-2 second delay, in the same room, different cables (but I would not think significantly since the store sets up similar speakers in the same room, so I can't imagine using awesome cables and crappy cables on speakers that are the same price) and since they used a speaker switcher the amp, and cd player were the same. We tried 3 different cds, and two different listening positions. I was never in the know as to which speaker was playing (neither was my wife) and the salesman did his best to make sure the volumes were the same when switching (as the Energys had 8 ohms resistence to Axioms 4). Any help?

What is it you don't like about the M80's? Too forward? I listened to the Connoisseur 7's and really hated them. To me, they were very congested, and muddy. In the Connoisseur series I only really liked the C-3 (and even that didn't compare to the M22ti's I bought.

Their next level up, the Veritas though are wonderful. To my ear I'd put the Axiom M60/80 up against the Veritas.

Guess it goes to show speakers are a very personal choice.

I am curious to know what it is about the Axioms you didn't like though.

My first thought would be that the two speakers probably have different placement requirements; the Energy speakers would have been carefully placed by the store while the M80s were brought in for the test.

We're only guessing though without a few clues re: what you didn't like about the Axioms, ie what differences you saw between the two speakers.

I'm guessing that the Energys have more like "the M50 sound" than "the M80 sound", ie they will probably sound "smoother" than the 80s due to a slight midrange dip. I couldn't find graphs for C-7 but the C-3 and C-9 definitely show a response more like the M50 than the M60/M80.

Anyways, if you can give us a bit more detail re: what differences you heard we can probably be more helpful...

As was discussed somewhere here a few weeks ago, differences in volume (even tiny differences) lead to the louder speaker sounding better. The dealer "doing his best" to make sure the speakers sounded like they were at the same volume doesn't make for an acceptable comparison.

Now, I'm not saying the Axioms were better; I haven't heard the Energys so I have no way of knowing.... The Energys might in fact be better sounding speakers to many people, certainly yourself included. But it's important that an A/B test be set up correctly or it's virtually worthless.

The previous post regarding room placement is correct in that it's a big factor as well.

I'd rather not group the M50s into the extremely laid back category. They're really very similar to the M22/60/80 line. It sounds more to me (without hearing either speaker, but based on Craig's info) that it's more like Rockets vs. M80s. Would that be correct, Craig?

Agreed. No attempt to do that. My point was almost the opposite -- that even within the "quite similar" Axiom lineup there were different characteristic sounds.

Guess I was trying distinguish between "good vs. bad" and "different"

OK, here's my follow-up... Without a doubt the placement has something to do with it, but the Energys were set-up in a room flanked by two other speakers, we removed one of those other two pairs and placed my Axioms in its place, so the set-up should have been at least mediocre since they probably had the other speakers setup somewhat decent. OK, Axiom vs the Energys, I would actually say that the Energys were bighter and more forward. The vocals were much more defined and truer to human vocals and had a slightly more forward sound. The Axioms in the midranges actually sounded muddy and jumbled when there were too many instruments. The piano notes were somewhat comparable one vs the other, but the piano fit better in the Energys overall sound presentation vs the Axioms where the piano got lost in the confusion of the instruments. I would say that the Energys did a much better job in portraying each individual instrument and spacially placing them within the soundstage whereas the Axioms lost some of that definition and pinpointability, which ultimately lead to confusion and that muddied sound. I also must say that even walking into that store, I WANTED to like MY Axioms better, and yet came out liking the Energys. The soundstage in the store I found was somewhat similar to mine at home, so I don't think the placement was entirely at fault, the Energys soundstage just seemed wider (well beyond the speakers). Just after hearing all the love that Axioms get, I was really curious as to something else that might be attributing to this comparison in which in my opinion the Energys soundly won. (I would actually say I like a brighter sound as to I don't like the 600 series of B&W)

Well that's the first time I've ever heard the term "muddy" used when describing Axioms. Usually, detractors describe them as being "ear-bleeding" bright. LOL!

I'd like to return to the point Mark made about volume. Did the salesperson use a Sound Pressure Level Meter to establish the volume for each speaker? If he did, I have no answer for you. If he didn't - if he only made sure the volume knob on the receiver was at the same point, or if he established the "same" volume by ear, dollars to donuts the speakers were NOT at the same volume. And, as Mark pointed out, even the slightest difference in level can make a huge difference in your impressions of the speakers.

Point 2. I'm not saying, that this is the case, but it's something you have to keep in mind. The salesperson had a vested interest in which speaker sounded better. I'm sure he's interested in making a sale. Unless you were privy to ALL the setup parameters, there is always the possibility things were manipulated to favor the speaker he'd like to sell you.

Lastly, if you're satisfied that everything was on the up and up, and you preferred the Energys, good heavens, return the Axioms and buy the Energys. It's too important a purchase to live with doubts. It doesn't really matter what brand you like. Being content with your purchase, and happy with what you hear is the name of the game.

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Lastly, if you're satisfied that everything was on the up and up, and you preferred the Energys, good heavens, return the Axioms and buy the Energys. It's too important a purchase to live with doubts. It doesn't really matter what brand you like. Being content with your purchase, and happy with what you hear is the name of the game.

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Absolutely...my only hesitation is that how you just described the difference between the C-7's and your M80's is just about the exact OPPOSITE of how I felt about them. Odd.

Wow... I had to read your post a few times to make sure I was reading it properly. What you describe is the classic "Axiom vs. something else" review, but normally the Axioms are the "clear, forward, vocals more defined, portraying each individual instrument etc..." speaker and the other one is the "muddy, confusing" one.

A couple of thoughts...

1. The M80s are more placement-sensitive than smaller speakers. Depending on the room, they like to be at least a foot and a half from the back wall or they can sound boomy (which might translate to muddy ?).

2. The salesman could have been fiddling the volume controls to make the Energys play a bit louder than the Axioms; only you can judge whether that is a possibility. Having said that, I don't think a dB or two would be enough to make the difference you described.

3. The switch was backwards. I would like to think this is true but it's not very likely

I don't know what to say. Something is wrong here but I have no idea what it might be.

USP, welcome. As you've probably gathered by now, what was heard at the store is about 180 degrees away from almost all other reports on the M80s, including those who preferred other speakers. Since personal preference seemingly couldn't explain such a difference, I'll again mention something that's happened here twice in the past: were the mids and tweeters on the M80s accidentally(or otherwise)disconnected because the connecting straps on the terminals were loosened?

Well, I will check into the connecting straps and make sure everything is OK with them (I assume you mean the external crossover plates). Secondly the whole volume thing I think is a wash, only because at one point the volume of the speakers I didn't like were actually louder. The only other possibility is some tampering of the speakers controls in the receiver, but I think this is unlikely because it was the same setup for both, the salesman was just using a speaker switcher (not even switching the cables back and forth). I was curious of everyone's input only because like everyone else seems to be saying these speakers should be better. I was looking to see if anyone was thinking blown driver (but I don't think so), bad wiring (but it doesn't appear one speaker outperforms the other), so I was trying to get some additional input from those of you who have head to headed these speakers. I am bringing them back to the store today to give them another listen with my original salesperson (who was out the first time I did the head to head) and we shall see what results we get.

hello usp...

When you took them to the store the 1st time, it sounded like the M80s were placed to the outside of the Energys. This places them wider apart, which creates the sweet spot farther away. Maybe the Energys, being closer together, created a sweet spot closer to where you were sitting. Put an M80 on the right (or left) side of each Energy. When you switch back and forth between speakers, move your listening position the same amount left and right so that you are always listening from the center of the pair that you are listening to. The imaging is always best in the center, regardless of the speaker.

Use an SPL meter to level match them.

Toe in/out. Keep it to less than 1/4". Too much seems to create "confusion" (at least it does with my 60s).

Why not ask the sales guy to bring a pair by YOUR place for an in-home demo? Tell him to bring the speaker switch & some wire. Neither speaker is going to sound the same in your house as it did in the showroom. If he won't do it. Ask him if he'll let you buy a pair, and bring them back "no questions asked" if you don't like them? If the Energys sound better to you there, I say keep them.

Michael,

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Why not ask the sales guy to bring a pair by YOUR place for an in-home demo? Tell him to bring the speaker switch & some wire. Neither speaker is going to sound the same in your house as it did in the showroom. If he won't do it. Ask him if he'll let you buy a pair, and bring them back "no questions asked" if you don't like them? If the Energys sound better to you there, I say keep them.

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You beat me to it,that's exactly what I was going to suggest.

That's what I did with the C-3's. I bought a pair of M22ti's and a pair of Energy C-3's and did my own in-home comparison. I truly expected to be sending the Axiom's back, but I was happily surprised. (the Axiom's were $100 less expensive!)

That's probably the best solution. Bring those C-7's home.

From what I've heard the M80's like a lot of space. How close to them do you sit when listening? How far apart are they from eachother?

Well, as for the the positioning, the speakers were actually the same distance apart, the Axioms were placed to the right of the Energys both times. Granted my listening position in the store was closer then at home, but a lot of what I heard in the store, I heard at home. When I went back and did a second audition I was able to more precisely put my finger on what was up, the midrange on the Energys were actually a little clearer, and the bass is not as pronounced on the Energies either, so I think this gave me an overall feeling of a shift up in the speakers to sounding bright. Due to this, I think that's why I liked the Energies better, I wasn't a big fan of B&W's 600 series, and not a big fan of Bostons. I would have to say that the salesman was excellent at trying to remain unbiased and did state that the speakers were great speakers, but it depended on the sound that you liked if you were going to like these. As for the in home demo, it's not possible since the dealer has to special order everything due to my wood choices, and no liberal return policy. Thank you everyone for all your help and input.

>>the midrange on the Energys were actually a little clearer, and the bass is not as pronounced on the Energies either, so I think this gave me an overall feeling of a shift up in the speakers to sounding bright

OK, this is starting to sound a bit familiar. The M80s have been reported to have "too much bass" in some rooms unless they are at least a couple of feet away from the wall (ie front of the speaker is 3-1/2 to 4 feet from the back wall). It's not that the M80 has a problem, just that it's a large, rear-ported speaker with deep bass extension.

If the distance from the back of the M80s to any wall is <2 feet try pulling them out further from the wall and that should help. I would start by pulling them way out into the room and listening like that first.

Part of the challenge here is that the M80 looks to be a much bigger speaker than the C-7 -- from the specs C-7s seem to be closer to M40s/50s in size -- and smaller speakers are often easier to place unless the room is fairly large.

What can you tell us about your listening room at home ?

As others said, it's vital the volume levels be matched. It's simple to do, yet you can't do that by ear. Just play pink noise at the expected listening volume, measure the SPL with a meter, switch speakers, compare the SPL and that's your correction factor in db.

In reality the correction factor will vary depending on listening level, so to be really exact you'd do that for several listening levels, and apply a different correction factor for each. It's really quick once you're used to it, since virtually all amps have db volume readouts.

Another major factor is the amp should be in "direct stereo" mode with all digital processing disabled. Without this, it's easily possible digital time arrival, EQ, bass management, etc could favor one speaker over the other.

Make certain it's in two-channel direct stereo mode, all digital stuff disabled, no surround speakers or sub configured.

Ok, here's the down and dirty in a nutshell...

The in store test was definately fair (as for the eq, I have no idea if there was any processing, I didn't check, but my salesman isn't a big fan of processing and I don't think he would have all of a sudden started putting some on... he's been straight up so far. As for the volume, on a couple of switches both the Axioms and the Energys were the louder speaker and I still chose the Energys each time. Secondly, me and my wife alternated spots to make sure we were in the sweet spot for each of the speakers a couple of times). Here's where the difference was made... 4 feet from the wall.... The soundstage exploded, the instruments became much more defined and the spacial orientation was great, the voices were still a little enclosed, but not as bad as before. But herein lies the problem as well, 4 feet off my wall is just about the center of my family room, not really an option... So with regret I will let them go, but at least now I feel better that I wasn't snookered by an online site and would highly recommend these guys if you can pull them that far off the wall, as even two feet drastically cut down the performance in my room. I would have to say that the Energys were better when both were up against the wall, and that is basically a restriction in my room that I have.

PS-Thank you everyone for all your help, suggestions, and comments. I do appreciate the help, and it really was a fun experience doing all this testing. Thanks again.

Enjoy your Energy's. Thanks for taking the time to test them out again and letting us know what you found.

Re amp processing, amps are so complex nowadays it's often difficult to know if it's on or not. The best step is always select "direct stereo", or "pure direct stereo" when doing comparisons.

Speaker sound is very individualistic. If you like the Energy speakers best, that's great. At least you did an A/B comparison which is more than many people do.

You guys are too easy. There was obviously some shennanigans going on with this "fair" test, or our reporter is advancing some anti-Axiom agenda.

The description of how the Axioms sound in comparison to the Energys is simply NOT possible. Nobody who has ever heard Axiom speakers would describe their sound thusly. One may like them or hate them, and sometimes one may do both - I seem to fall in and out of love with my M60s on a daily basis - but that description is completely and utterly bogus.

Giving the original poster the benefit of the doubt, my guess is the salesman hooked up the speaker wires backwards.

And if you are considering an Axiom purchase find someone to demo them with or order M3s as a sampler - return shipping on those is very small. Certainly do not give any creedence to the description above.

Did you not read his last post BigWill?

As my defense to what BigWill has posted, I am COMPLETELY unbiased. I am merely someone looking to install an audio system in my home. Before I started this endeavor I never heard of any company outside of what you would see in BB and CC (klipsch, Sony, yammys, etc). As for the salesman switching the wires, well, I hooked up one of the speakers personally and they did not sound mismatched as if one was an Energy and one was Axiom. Also, in the second audition I did at the store, after I decided which ones I liked better, I physically walked up to the speakers and placed my hands on both to verify which speaker was playing. (and to my ears the Energys were easy to pick out time and time again - also in the store the Axioms were about 1 foot away from the wall). The overall sentiment I left in my last post was that the Axioms actually did quite well once I pulled them off my wall by about 4 feet, but for my room that is simply not an acceptable setup. My only lingering complaint is that I felt the voices were still slightly "closed" (as if the singer had his hands cupped around the mic and his mouth), and not as forward as I like in the soundstage. As a side note, you have m60s, I have already been informed that there is a great difference in sound between the two with the m60s also being easier to place closer to walls. The ONLY reason I am not auditioning those is because I was not thrilled with the voices and I really don't want to audition them and pay for shipping back on those as well. Now if Axiom was willing to replace the m80s with m60s free of charge (ie pay for my return shipping on the m80s), I would do it. If I was so biased I would not have lugged these puppies to the store twice, and posted on here as to what others thought could be the problem so that I could try and take corrective steps and give the Axioms a true shot. Once again, I thank everyone for your help and I am sure that those who decide to go with Axioms will truly be pleased, these are great speakers when placed correctly, but that is something I simply can't do.

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Now if Axiom was willing to replace the m80s with m60s free of charge (ie pay for my return shipping on the m80s), I would do it.

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To the best of my knowledge, Axiom does this. When I opted to upgrade my M22 to M60s, during the 30 day grace period, Axiom paid for the return of the 22s. That was my experience. Policy may have changed since then, but if not, they might pay for the return of the M80s, AND return you the difference in cost. You should give them a quick phone call, and ask.

You'll just have to call and check with Axiom...

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When I opted to upgrade my M22 to M60s, during the 30 day grace period, Axiom paid for the return of the 22s. That was my experience.

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Jack, my understanding is that they'll pay for the shipping if it is an upgrade return/exchange. But always better just to call and find out!

usp... We're not trying to give you a hard time, but we are all VERY confused here.

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My only lingering complaint is that I felt the voices were still slightly "closed" (as if the singer had his hands cupped around the mic and his mouth),

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I have NEVER seen or heard anyone describe the sound of any model of Axiom speaker like that. It goes completely against everything we know about Axiom speakers. Something just doesn't seem right. The suggestions that you have been getting are from people VERY familiar with how M80s (as well as the rest of the Axiom line) sound, and we know that what you are describing indicates a problem somewhere. I'm beginning to wonder if yours have a wire disconnected inside of them. Are all of the drivers firing?

Second that. Please don't think we're picking on you or anything...

We do run into people who aren't happy with their Axioms and prefer something else but normally our reaction is either "yeah, they can be a little like that" or "yeah, Axiom should make something like that".

We get the occasional person on here saying things like "they suck and you're all stupid for liking them and no I don't have time to place them properly why should I do that I paid a lot of money for this crap" but you sound smart, thoughtful and are obviously putting a lot of effort into figuring out what sounds best to you and why.

Your situation does sound like something more is wrong, particularly since the kind of problems you are describing are 180 degress away from the way Axioms are normally described. That's why we're wondering about something loose or disconnected.

One quick & easy idea might be to give Axiom a call and point them to this thread so you don't have to go through the whole story again. They probably can give a second opinion on what Michael_A posted, eg. "we've heard that description before; that's a bad midrange"...

Just wondering, do you live anywhere with other Axiom owners nearby ? I imagine any of us would be open to getting you and a pair of "known good" speakers together as an easy way of figuring out if there is something wrong with the pair you have.

Good luck with the hunt.
John

To the best of my knowledge, yes all the drivers are firing. Now how would you test without simply putting your hand on them. I placed my hand near each individual driver, but all seems well. As for the voice, I guess, to me, it just doesn't seem as forward or as open as it does on the Energies. Perhaps it's the Energys adding a coloring I like.... I am not above agreeing that the Energys may simply be coloring the music in a way that I personally like, and the Axioms are "truer" to the music... I don't know, it's just a trend that I noticed. Maybe one of the drivers is spotty, or not firing correctly, but ultimately the 80s don't work FOR ME. I will be calling axiom today to see if they will do the downgrade for me. I don't mind people offering suggestions, or asking me to check this and that, or even questioning the methods of my testing. Heck, I'll be the first to admit I'm a noob, my testng is not a double blind, nor is my opinion the only one that matters. I just take offense when someone accuses me of propagating an anti-Axiom position. Fact of the matter is this, I've lugged these speakers to a store twice, gone through numerous setup changes, changed the wiring, rewired the speakers, done every check someone on here has suggested, and have reported everything in a true and fair manner... I have explained why I agree or disagree with someone's stated questions, and have tried to be as informative and unbiased as possible. Heck, I wanted to go to my music store, walk in, and have these kick ass speakers and basically be like, "ha, these are better speakers, and you thought they weren't." I guess I just don't appreciate the accusation (even though it has only been one person thus far) when I have done everything in my power to be honest and fair. Thanks again to all that have helped and have a good day.

I'm sorry you took offense. I merely put forth the proposition that something was amiss in the testing session OR that the poster was biased. I did so based on the assertion that the M80s were "muffled" sounding. If you had used the terms "bright", "metallic", "cold", "hard", etc... that other folks use to describe Axioms in a negative way, then the review would have made more sense.

I suppose I might have created a false dichotomy and should have left open the possibility that the poster was somehow in error regarding his choice of terms. I'm still betting on shennanigans on the part of the salesman, though.

>>I'm still betting on shennanigans on the part of the salesman, though.

That was my first thought as well but it sounds like usp was watching him pretty closely and was involved in the setup.

Barring some kind of hookup problem like "out of phase" (which would really hurt the sound, and in exactly the way usp described) the other possibility seems to be some kind of speaker defect. Depending on where usp lives (I'm guessing Ontario) the next step might be to get him in front of some "known good" Axioms.

i was reading this thread and found it rather funny. funny part being energy c-7 sounds better then m80ti. first off i don't have 80s. i have the m60s which are excellent sounding by the way. but i've heard they are very close to the m80s sound. so heres my two bits. before buying any system i read countless reveiws and listened to all speakers i could before buying. heres just a few. energy c-9,B@W 703,monitor gr60s,klipsch rf5 and last but not least kef 207 reference series. i found most to be very nice sounding speakers each with there own sound.monitor was the best the gr60s were very nice to say the least the price wasn't. i found the B@W nice to listen to too but i found them to be flat sounding. mabey at higher levels they would be better. also very expensive.kef 207 were very good also. as for kliplsh very bright sound but i happen to like that in tower speakers. last but not least energy the c-7 for me wasn't an option sounded almost like the thread starter descibed the axiom.also to say the axiom were muddy sounding and the energy clean and bright. very funny to say the least. i looked more closley at the c-9s which were okay. the vertias v2.41 were very nice but very expensive. but i was rather unimpressed with energy. i mean sure the v2.41 were very nice but too dam expensive i don't wanna pay over 4000grand for fronts when i got four more speakers to buy and a nice sub. so i rated them monitor first kef then klipsch b@w then energy. unless you wanna pay for a lot for there higher end stuff energy in my test was mediocre. so anyways after much debating about the thousands i was going to spend and what to get for it. finally i got lucky and a freind had just bought a axiom system. i had heard of axiom but never got a chance to hear them. so i finally did and it was what i needed to hear clean bright sound i loved them from that moment on. then when i asked him how much it was i almost fainted. great sound for a decent amount. i was sold on axiom bought my stuff the following week. although both of us have m6os not 80s, i still would put them up against 4 of the 5 speakers i auditioned. excluding monitors gr60s but the prcie difference is to much and the sound isn't. as for the c-7 energy i did not audition it long because to be frank its sound was lack luster at best. the c-9 was okay but i would still take the kliplsh rf5 sound over it. to each his own for the speakers they like. but the energy c-7 sound is no match for the m60s i own. never mind the 80s. thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

Yep... we're all a bit baffled by this one. The more I think about it the more I'm starting to suspect that the M80s were wired out of phase the first time.

Guess we'll never know.

Hope usb does a bit more shopping before pulling the trigger. IMO there are better speakers out there for the price than the C-7s even if you leave Axiom out of the picture (although I bet he would love M50s).

yes it nevers hurts to shop around. but price and quality axiom puts out is very hard to beat. but if you got the money the skys the limit i guess. but i think his ears were a little off that day to say energy c-7 was a better sound then axiom. for the simple reason the c-9 was better then the c-7 and still didn't have the sound the axiom m60s had. the whole thing just comes off like hes bashing the product without even having it. because his reveiw of the two speakers is way off. i mean energy sounded fair but not even close to the m60s.thats comparing the c-9 sound against the m60s.the c-7 well thats a whole different story. not to bash the speakers because everybody likes different sound but i really didn't like them compared to the axioms.

Guys, if you read back aways the original poster stated that he solved the problem he was having by moving the M80s away from the walls, which apparently were accentuating the bass. This is the positioning problem that occasionally, BUT NOT ALWAYS, OR EVEN FREQUENTLY, plagues the M80s. (OK, Rick? [SMILE])

Because he couldn't leave them in that position, he opted to return them. No problem.

Jack is right on this.The original poster did say the 80s sound stage exploded once he got them away from the walls.His problem is he dosen't have the room in is place to keep them away from the walls.I believe the Energies are a front ported speaker so it is not as placement dependent.He also said he would be willing to give the M60s a shot if Axiom would pay for the return shipping on the M80s.So it does sound as if he is willing to give Axioms another shot.This just may be a case where the M80s are to much speaker for the size room he has tried to put them in.

Ajax and wid, thank you for saying what I was going to. I am not trying to bash the Axioms. I really do feel like once I had them placed properly they were superb speakers. The only complaint I had posted was that the voice sounded "off." The problem was actually me on that one to some extent. After listening to more speakers with those cds, I realized some of the offness was actually the way the cd was recorded. I still, for my personal tastes, think the Energies did a better job with the voice, but other than that one aspect, the m80s took the cake once placed 4 feet off the wall. The voice is probably just a personal preference, nothing more. I have been in contact with Alan from Axiom, and he feels that my situation is a room anomoly. That is something that I can only test once I get some more speakers in my house. I have no doubt that Alan was accurate, and speakers that are "less fussy" about placement may be the way that I have to go due to restrictions in my room. By the way, Alan is a phenomonal person who was willing to help me out in any way possible. He suggested bookshelf speakers for my situation, and getting a sub, but since I am not currently in the sub market (don't plan on getting one for a couple of months), I will ship everything back since there is only a 30 day in home trial. At that point I will have brought some more floorstanders into my home, and will be able to figure out if it is a room anomoly and all speakers are bad (forcing me to go the bookshelf route), or if I can get some speakers that are less fussy about my room and can work in my setup. To anyone reading this thinking about Axioms all I can say is this. This company is NOT a gimmick, they truly do make great speakers. Give their 30 day in home trial a chance and see if you like them. If you get the results I did at 4 feet off the wall, and you have them placed as you desire, you will NOT be sending these back, they really are that good. For me, my room is just a PITA. Also, Axioms customer service is excellent, and I really do have high standards being in a service provider business myself, and know what makes good business. Thank you to all of you that have helped me, and I hope this has helped anyone else who is considering Axioms. Alan, thank you as well, you truly went above and beyond my expectations, and I would highly recommend your product. I will keep all informed as to the final resolution to this story... even if it is 6 months from now (I surely hope not, as I will probably be divorced if it takes that long)

Thanks for reporting back, and keeping us in the loop. Do let us know how it works out.

Is there really a difference in sound between the M80s and M60s?

For the sake of the people who spent $300 more, I certainly hope so!

My understanding is that the difference is mostly in two areas -- a bit more deep bass, and the ability to play louder than the M60 and still sound good. The M80 is the M60 for big rooms.

I'm not sure there is a huge difference in sound but I wouldn't mind finding out.If there is someone here in northeren Il. with M60s that would like to do a side by side with my M80s I would be willing.They would have to have the power to push the 80s if they wanted to do it at their house.If not someone could always bring some M60s down here to mine.

That's quite a tadpole you've got there, wid.

Yeah man that one fought pretty good.I let that one go.It was about a 20lb catfish.I got it in a cooling lake here in Il.

"Cooling lake" like in "cooling a nuclear power plant" ?

It was a gas operated power station.I do fish in a nuclear power cooling lake too,no big deal to me.

wherever the lunkers are at.

Yeah man, Spiroh ya gonna go out with us this year.

For sure. I hear excellent things about the cooling lakes. I cant wait till it gets nice out.

It's warm. There's lots of food, so you get huge fish. Well, when they don't try swimming up the output or input pipes...