Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Axiom Folks where do I go from here?

Hi all, well its been about over a year now and still happy with my Axiom speakers. I have made a few changes to my original set-up and not sure what to do next. I love my system in HT, but in music I wish the sound was warmer and more dynamic or had a depth to it. Based on $300 low end and with some time $600 top end what change should I make next to get this depth and warmth? My current system is as follows....

Axiom M22ti's Front
Axiom VP-150 Center
Axiom QS8's suround
VMPS Original sub with all bells and whistles
Yamaha RX-V2300 6.1 Reciever
Rotel RB-980BX Amp Bridged mono to the sub
Cheap Toshiba DVD player
Sony PS2

maybe a nice denon cd/dvd player?

maybe a new SVS or HSU sub?

or, try and sell the 22's, and use that money so you can afford the M60's?

bigjohn

lol I bought the VMPS sub over svs and hsu. The VMPS sub is killer and is in no way the problem here. I would love to upgrade to M60's someday. Just can not afford to in the new market, and nobody sells their M60's :-)

This is sort of "out of the box" but have you thought about some room treatments?

I don't think upgrading your receiver or components is going to change yuor sound that much (opinions vary on this topic). Maybe your room has some imperfections that could be fixed with some new drapes, carpet, sound absorbing panels, etc.

At the very least, maybe you coudl use the money to invest in a set up disc and an SPL meter (if you don't already have one). This will really help with the soudstage and depth issues.

Let us know what you decide.

I have a SPL meter I just got yesterday, and just ran a 10hz-300hz Test Disc someone sent me a link to, to burn. It spikes all over the place, with a few noticeable peaks. Biggest problem exists around 42hz where it peaked at 97db and by 50hz bottomed out at 72db. Another low point is at 120hz and the rest goes back and forth between 84db and 93bd. So where do we go from here? Is it time for an EQ? To be honest I have been a Car Audio man for many years and run an EQ in that system, so an EQ is the first to come to mind here. Whatcha think?

Your graph sounds almost exactly like mine. I got a Behringer Feedback Killer and used it as an EQ and it worked a treat! Takes some tweaking and tricks, but it did a lot to flatten out my response.

So that's one way you can consider going...

Seeing the key words "Warmer" and "Depth" The thought that comes to mind is M50. The key word for M50 is "Pleasant"
It also comes with the 30 day in-home trial, and unless I'm mistaken, if you don't like it and wish to trade-up, you can send it back with free shipping upon purchase of M60 or M80.

The M50 may be more relaxed or laid-back than the M22, but it still has a strong family resemblance to the rest of the Axiom line, so it will mate up quite well with the rest of your speakers. And the price is right: $630 USD thru Factory outlet.

At any rate, for music it would certainly be warmer than your M22s, and if you prefer your music without a sub, as many do, then the M50s will surely add depth in that area as well.

Just a thought.
Rich.

How big is your room (L/W/H) and how is it finished ? That would help us come up with ideas...

If the room is fairly big I would second the M50s. If not, room treatments, measuring/setup etc...

The M22s should have plenty of dynamics in a medium sized room but they won't fill up a larger room like the 50s would.

I feel bad, I neglected our M40 friends; If you would prefer an even warmer sound, kinda like the ol' tube days, and save even a few more bucks, then perhaps the M40 would fill the bill.

The M40 was a very popular Axiom speaker a few years back but just dosen't get the credit it deserves these days. The Average Axiom Customer has shifted from wanting a slightly laid-back from neutral,more comfortable speaker, to a slightly more foreward more revealing design. The customer though still has a choice! The 40s and 50s are alive and well and waiting for those folks who still appreciate those attributes!

Just another thought.
Rich.

My room is 17'X 15' X 8' with a 6 foot opening on one wall into the kitchen. The wall that my front stage has to go on in this house is onlt about 7.5 feet long as one side has the swing of the front door, and the other side has a hallway opening. My entertainment stand is 5 feet wide, so I have very little play room with my front stage speakers, which is a drag.

Without seeing a floor plan, my first thought would be to see if you can invest the $$ in furniture (stands, chair, something) to let you re-arrange the room and get your M22s a bit further apart. That will probably help the soundstage quite a bit.

I'm trying to visualize this -- is one speaker pretty close to a side wall ? If so, invest in something really absorbent to hang on the wall and control the reflections -- I have one of my mains reflecting off a stone fireplace in its current position and it completely destroys the imaging on my M60s unless I stand real close.

Ok the wall that the front stage is on is 13' wide...I messed up the room is 13'X 17'X 8'. However there is a hall way going back to the bedrooms on the left side, and the front door opens on the right side, with the front door swinging in. This takes the 13' width and drops my postioning down to 6.5 feet (13' minus 3' for hall way and minus 3' for door). The problem is the other walls have their own problems.... One has a large window, the other has the 6' opening to the kitchen, and the log wall is the only one suitable for furniture. Any other way would only leave room for 2 Recliners at the most and no tables. I know its not the best in the world but its what I have to work with :-)

Have you tried moving the sub or playing with the phase control? The lack of "depth" and "warmth" seems to indicate that the sub isn't blending too well with the mains.

Anything like this ?

I'll second the room treatments idea.

Also, would you (or someone else) mind posting the link to the test disc? I did a search, and can't seem to find it in past posts, but I may be using the wrong keyword(s).

Thanks!
Rich

Here is the link to the Test CD I used.

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm#Top

Very close, but the door is actually on the right wall and swings into the room. The opening to the kitchen is at the very bottom of the left wall (where the QS8 is). I had to put the QS8's on stands. Other then that, you have got it!

Thanks! And for those who hate to cut & paste:

Test Tones

I suggest dumping the playing of music from a DVD player and buy a dedicated cd player - Cambridge Audio or NAD for your price range. Don't listen to people who will tell you otherwise, just try it and see.

If you want soundstage depth or perhaps even more dynamics, get rid of everything that stands in between your speakers. Not practical, I know but try it one day. Lower frequency depth? Not sure what would cure that - definitely a better amp, perhaps M60s but probably unlikely since you already have a sub.

Invest in some cheaper used separates from Audiogon or something like that. Older NAD separates are pretty cheap and warmer. This will improve your music performance. Finally, don't take advice from anyone who hasn't heard the stuff they are talking about.

If you can't get the stuff in between the speakers out of the way, move the M22s forward a foot or two. Big soundstage improvements there.

I'll third the room treatment idea. Speakers will sound only as good as the room will allow. The room itself and the placement of the speakers within is part of the speaker system and, after the speaker itself, is the second most important component in the overall system. Yet, by and large, it is the most neglected.

In my experience, room treatments have made the most dramatic improvements (sound stage dimension and frequency response) over and above any equipment upgrade that I have ever made.

Oak, Mike and the others who've suggested that you consider room treatments are right on target. This isn't as clear and simple as suggesting that some player or amp or wires will give you better sound, but it has the advantage of being factual. The quality of sound depends on the quality of the recording, the ability of the speakers to reproduce the recording with a minimum of coloration and the degree to which the listening room adds its own colorations.

On the other hand buying new speakers is easier, it feels really good hitting "submit" on that order, and it's great fun unpacking them and trying them out . Seriously, you have real nice speakers already. Going to bigger mains would make a slight difference but I don't think anything you have is the weak link today.

Have we asked about the wall / floor finishes and how much soft furniture & drapes you have in the room ? First thing is to sit in the "sweet spot" (you DO have a nice chair in the sweet spot, right ?). Get a mirror and an assistant if necessary, but figure out where the first reflection point is between your ears and the speakers, ie where on the wall and floor does the sound bounce off when going from the speakers to your ears.

Make sure that (a) the reflection spots aren't all shiny and reflective, and that (b) the two sides are similar, ie not real shiny on one side and soft & fluffy on the other side. Think about rugs and wall hangings. Drapes. Icky stuff. Carpet or rug on the floor is good but lose points for a big glass-topped coffee table between you and the speakers.

If the family permits, you can get cool foam panels for the wall which look real sharp if you are an audio nut, and look like overpriced packing material to everyone else.

Your room shape is pretty good but the room modes are right where you called them -- 44 Hz is the peak from the 13 foot dimension. I *think* you are making that peak worse by having the speakers at the 1/4 and 3/4 mark due to the doors -- can you try pulling them further apart and see if that helps ? I know you can't leave them that way but it would be good to know.

The modes would also indicate a dip at 120. I can't think of any easy placement tricks to counter the dip at 120 or the peak at 130 but a bass trap or two would probably help the whole range.

Look at http://www.realtraps.com.

Edit -- I fixed up the picture on the previous page to match your room and took the liberty of hanging a couple of HF MiniTraps on the wall. The HF traps are normal bass traps which also provide absorbtion at higher frequencies to help with reflections and improve your soundstage. Two traps aren't enough to make a huge difference in the room acoustics but they will definitely help, and you would be pretty much killing two birds with one stone.

Note that the traps are located so the HF absorbing surface is at the spot where sound from the speakers would bounce off the wall and arrive at your ears a bit delayed, mucking up the imaging.

Whoops, forgot one thing. Bass traps work better in the corners, either where two walls meet or where wall and ceiling meet. Doesn't look like putting the bass traps on the side walls and using them to absorb HF as well would be the best use of $$.

OK, new plan. This layout would probably sound quite a bit better, although you would be a bit close to the TV and speakers. Make sure it sounds better before you buy new furniture or spend the $$ on flowers to stay out of the doghouse.



That's it. I gotta go back to rearranging my own *&%^* room. Good luck !!

This may be true, however..... Being that I have been an avid Car Stereo Fanatic for years, and have changed my system many many times... I know for a fact each company and component has its own sound. The trick is finding the the right combination for your liking. Its taken years but I finally have a system I love in my car. The Xtant amp's I use now are a much warmer sound then my Rockford Fosgates, but still found the system bright at high volumes. I changed out the Boston Acoustic Pro's I had for CDT Eurosports... and BAM the perfect sweet sound I love to hear. I can even say the best sounding CD player I ever had was an old Clarion Pro CD player.. It sounded awesome, but skipped like a mad man. So I had to sell it and went back to an Alpine CD player, and right away lost the clarity of the Clarion, but at least it did not skip.
My only point here is, Maybe it is just my ears, but I would state my life on it, that every component (Company) has a sound distinguishable to the next. I am open to all new things and am intrested in the possible dressing of the room. But at the same time, know that a new component in a system can change the sound completely.
I still have trouble delieving that a wire could make a difference, but its only because I have not heard it I am sure. I would love to hear a system locally with this expensive wire so I could demo it and see if I could actually hear a difference.
The only trick I see to making Dampening pannels for the room, is making it fashionable. This is my Familty room, and the room everyone uses when they enter the house... So it has to look good. I consider myself artistic, so could come up with something... As long as I could find materials that would not take away fron the pannels effects.

Here's a good "make your own bass traps and HF damping panels" link.

http://www.ethanwiner.com/basstrap.html

If you're up to trying different components I still think you would really like M50s, with the caveat that I have heard neither 22s or 50s.

Well That looks good, but here are the thoughts... Where you have the stand for the TV and such is where the double window is. The TV stand would Block exactly 1 foot of the window. Now two thoughts come to mind... 1 We barely remember to open the blinds of tht window so who cares right... 2 I thought a window glare would be too much... But remembered that window faces the North side, so sun light never directly hits the front of the house. Last problem I see is the the Cable hook-up is on the wall we are currently one. Since this is a rental house, I would have to get permision to go in the attic and run a new line.
However with all that I like this idea. I see a place for my subwoofer! Thats the biggest problem I have with this setup is where the sub goes! Thanks I run this by the peeps involved and keep ya posted!

Well to be honest I am going to get a Music Hall 25 CD player, and then test the sound from there. I always had intensions of getting the M60's, but when that day comes we will see.

Sounds good. M22s really are more than enough for your room. It just sounded like you wanted to change SOMETHING

Mine are, they are placed with the front of the speakers about an inch infront of the front of the entertainment stand to insure no obstruction in sound. They are about 15 inches away from the wall.

Oak244,

All bets are off in the car audio world. Those components DO sound different. One need only stop by a local stereo shop where they have switchboard setup to choose between different amps, head units, and speakers. I don't think the manufacturers in the car audio world are after flat frequency response, so it's to be expected.

Someone helped me get the pics of my room online. Here you can see part of the room we are speaking of and also for peeps who wanted to see my M22's on the stands I built myself using the m22 as a template for design. I will make some more detailed one to those who asked.
/http://www.interlog.com/~johnb/ht/oak1.JPG
/http://www.interlog.com/~johnb/ht/oak2.JPG

Hey there Oak, let me help you out with the links for those that hate to copy and paste or type the address out

http://www.interlog.com/~johnb/ht/oak1.JPG
http://www.interlog.com/~johnb/ht/oak2.JPG

Randy

Oak,

Try pulling the sofa away from the wall about 1' to 1.5' as a test. Made a huge difference for me. The reflections off the back wall can make a mess out of the sound. If it helps, maybe you can add something to the back wall, like a heavy decorative tapestry or something. You might be getting innundated with high frequencies hitting you from both the front and the rear. They wouldn't arrive at your ears at the same time, and the wonderful human brain has a way of filtering this stuff out. The only problem is that the "filter" causes the brain to ignore the relfections, but it's not perfect, so you end up "ignoring" some of the direct sound as well as the reflected sound.