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dazed and confused
#81881 02/16/05 11:56 PM
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okay well today was the day i was going to pick up my denon 3805. well to say the least i didn't get it. worse thing is now i'm more confused then i was when i was deciding which receiver to upgrade too. okay heres my story well i went to the store to buy my denon. while i was waiting for salesmen i started to look around. found myself over by the ht receivers. well to say the the least thats when i got confused. sitting there by the receivers was an onkyo 2 channel power amplifier. its power rating is 2x100 in 8ohms and 2x125 in 6ohms. so after seeing this my brain goes into overload. the price is even better, only 350cdn for it. that means i could by 3 and still be a grand less then the denon reciever. also this would give my m60s 200 watts each and the vp150 and qs8s would be running 250 watts each. so this is how i became dazed and confused. so i drove home not nowing what to do. then realized my m60s have two sets of binding posts. so then i went to look for there instructions but can't find them. so now i'm really confused. so my question is what should i guy do. and how do you hook the amps up to your receiver so they both run power to the speakers and get the 250 and 200 watts there. please someone help.

for so long now it's true
#81882 02/17/05 12:19 AM
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I think you misunderstood the amp ratings. 2x100 means 2 channels at 100 watts each. So your fronts would get 100 each, but you 6 ohm center and surrounds would get 125 each. In order to use these with your current setup, your receiver needs to have pre-outs for all 5 channels.

Also, powering the center only requires one amp, so if you got the two channel amp, one of the channels would go unused.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81883 02/17/05 12:30 AM
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smokey Offline OP
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no i understood the power rating i might have mis worded it. what i'm saying is my onkyo reciver as is runs 100 watts in 8ohms and 125 in 6ohms. so by adding these amps it would be 200 and 250 watts. it would give an extra 100 watts to the m60ti's and 125 to the 6ohm speakers pushing the channels to 200 and 250 watts. but my question is do you bi amp them or what.the m60ti's have two sets of binding posts the qs8 and vp150 don't so how do you get the power from the av receiver and the amp to those speakers.

Re: dazed and confused
#81884 02/17/05 12:32 AM
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>>so then i went to look for there instructions but can't find them. so now i'm really confused. so my question is what should i guy do. and how do you hook the amps up to your receiver so they both run power to the speakers and get the 250 and 200 watts there

That's what we call "faux bi-amping"

With "real" bi-amping you use an electronic crossover before the power amp to separate out low & high frequencies (around 200 Hz for M60s, I think), run low & high to separate power amps, then run the LF power amp outputs to the woofer binding posts and the HF power amp outputs to the mid/tweeter binding posts... after disconnecting the little brass jumpers of course. One of the nice things about "real" bi-amping is that the LF amp normally clips first, but if it clips you get a nice rich fuzzy bass sound while your high frequencies stay clean... rather than having the high frequencies from the clipping amp go into your tweeter and fry it.

Since you probably don't have one of those electronic crossovers (and the x-over in your receiver won't cut it), all you can probably do is run the same signal to two power amps, for each channel, connect one power amp to woof and the other to mid/tweet BUT BOTH AMPS CARRY ALL THE FREQUENCIES so you don't get many benefits.

A more common use of the two binding post sets is "bi-wiring", where you have one power amp output with two sets of wires running off it, one going to each set of binding posts. Benefit is generally felt to be.... um... is "placebic" a word ?

Unless the amp is designed for bridging (something totally different again) I wouldn't plan on getting 200 useful watts into a speaker out of a 2x100 watt amp.

What is your current receiver again ?


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Re: for so long now it's true
#81885 02/17/05 12:36 AM
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also its a 6.1 system so all 3 amps would be running one set of speakers. fronts to one surrounds left and right to one, and the center and back surround to another. yes the receiver has pre outs for this. but how do you hook it up i know you have to use cables to run from the receiver to amp. but the wiring is what confuses me. if you only wire from the amp then you lose the power of your reciever. so what do you do. do you just run two sets of wire one from the reciver one from the amp and then twist them together and insert them into the binding posts. see this is why i'm confused.

Re: dazed and confused
#81886 02/17/05 12:37 AM
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Short answer :

No. Don't go there. Step away from the amplifiers.

Normally when you get a power amp you DO lose the power from the receiver, ie you are essentially replacing the power amp built into your receiver with a bigger and better one.

This is why you don't see anyone buying a 100 watt amp if they have a 100 watt receiver. More common is something like a 65 watt receiver with a 250 watt amp.

One other point -- it's pretty common to just use a big power amp on the mains, since they are the most likely to be used full range and/or to cross over at a lower frequency and hence need more power.

One of the hidden benefits of amping a few channels is that you now have relatively more power supply available for the remaining amp channels in the receiver which ARE being used, so they are generally able to put out a bit more power while still sounding clean.


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Re: for so long now it's true
#81887 02/17/05 12:39 AM
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the receiver is an onkyo tx-sr701. so getting amps to boost the power is a waste of money then.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81888 02/17/05 12:44 AM
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Not a 100W or 125W amp anyways.


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Re: dazed and confused
#81889 02/17/05 12:48 AM
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One thing to remember though, when it comes to power rating for power amps, the numbers are usually more true than power ratings for receivers.

That said, the jump from a 100wpc receiver to a 100wpc amp, is probably not worthy enough for the cost.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81890 02/17/05 12:49 AM
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so if a guy isn't going to be listening at high levels where the reciever would clip out theres no need for the connecting of more amps. i've seen other amps also like multi channel amps from rotel. what are they for then are they just to power speakers, and then you just buy a reciever with no wattage to process the sound.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81891 02/17/05 12:55 AM
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In reply to:

the receiver is an onkyo tx-sr701. so getting amps to boost the power is a waste of money then.




Going from your Onkyo reciever to the Onkyo amps would be of no benifit to you at all.Adding those amps would not boost any power at all,it would be more like a sideways move.Sure you could add the amps but ya wouldn't get no wheres doing so.




Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: for so long now it's true
#81892 02/17/05 12:58 AM
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also i would just like to thank you guys for helping me out. i get a little crazy when shopping for electronics. i like to jump head first into things without nowing the pros and cons. i think i'll just get the denon reciever like i planed.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81893 02/17/05 01:01 AM
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I'm just wondering what is wrong with the Onkyo that you feel ya need a change.The Onk looks to be a pretty nice unit.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: for so long now it's true
#81894 02/17/05 01:13 AM
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Or you could buy outlaw 200watt Mono Blocks for the fronts $299 each outlaw monoblocks outlaw makes really nice stuff. and the have great customer service give them a call.


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Re: for so long now it's true
#81895 02/17/05 01:22 AM
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Have you looked online at the cost of a 3805 or a 3803? I am a cheap bastard when it comes to buying from stores. You may want to look at the 3803 as there is not "major" differances in the two but there is a large $$ differance. Look for factory authorized B stock items. Big savings.

PS, this is where Ray comes in.....don't be fooled about his advice as he's just looking for an in to promote his remote.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81896 02/17/05 01:52 AM
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theres nothing wrong with the onkyo receiver. its actually very nice. it has all the options a guy could want. you could say i'm little addicted to electronics. addicted is a little strong. but every year about this time i feel the need to upgrade. so i guess it started when i saw the denon 3805. now its moved to wanting an amp to go with it. well after talkin to everyone here today i decided to keep my onkyo and my money. it sounds great so why upgrade now. when i get a bigger room or another factor pops up then i'll upgrade. but thanks all for the input and help.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81897 02/17/05 02:05 AM
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Hey - I resemble that remark. MX-700s are GOOD things.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81898 02/17/05 02:12 PM
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smokey- i have the 701 also, and i think is a great receiver. it has 100watts per channel, and i have yet to crank it ALL the way. if you are just dying for more power, look into getting a bryston, rotel, parasound, marantz, or outlaw 5ch amp. i believe each of those companies make a 5ch amp with around 125-200watts per channel. cost will vary between $600-$1200 bucks, and would provide you with all the POWER you could ever need, and still allow the 701 to do the processing.

just another idea..

bigjohn


EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??
Re: dazed and confused
#81899 02/17/05 03:26 PM
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"Dazed and Confused" A Classic Movie...

"Let me tell you what Melba Toast is packin' right here, alright. We got 411 Positrac outback, 750 double pumper Edelbrock intakes, bored over 30, 11 to 1 pop-up pistons, turbo-jet 390 horsepower. We're talkin' some fu**in' muscle. "



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Re: dazed and confused
#81900 02/17/05 03:33 PM
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dazed...

"thats what i like about high school girls.. i get older, and they stay the same age"..

bigjohn


EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??
Re: dazed and confused
#81901 02/17/05 04:41 PM
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gotta luv that famous quote by Woodersen also


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: for so long now it's true
#81902 02/17/05 05:18 PM
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pardon my laziness for not comparing the specs myself, but if you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, maybe it's worth looking at going to a Denon 2105 or 2805. Much cheaper than the 3805. Then you could spend the money you save on adding some Outlaw Monoblocks or Marantz M9000 (or whatever that one was called).

The processing abilities of the 2105 and 2805 are very similar to the 3805 so you won't lose any functionality, plus you'll have the external amp to build around in the future.

Of course you could always spend the money on something that would be more noticeable especially since you already have a good quality receiver. Upgrade your sub or buy some DVDs or CDs or something.


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Re: for so long now it's true
#81903 02/17/05 09:49 PM
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smokey, if you haven't already pulled the trigger on something else, I would suggest you get just one of those 2 channel onkyo budget amps and use it to power your M60s. I did that (with the same onkyo amp) primarily in order to relieve some of the burden from my Denon 2802 during action movies. With a separate amp for the fronts your receiver only has to power the center and surrounds - a much easier task since they're probably rolled off at 80hz, right?

It may not have been absolutely necessary, but I sure feel better cranking it up loud (don't have to crank as high to achieve the same spl levels either). There seems to be some improvement in action movies when the sh1t is really hittin' the fan - but that could be my imagination.


Re: for so long now it's true
#81904 02/17/05 10:51 PM
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as for upgrading my sub. i just bought a new vtf3-mk2 hsu sub to go with my axioms. so i don't need a sub. also that hsu sub is a killer i mean it shakes the house at moderate levels. i went and checked out the outlaw mono blocks pretty cool looking unit and they are 200 watts too. but are there prices in american or canadian. i from canada and can't find anyone who deals with them around where i live. so either i'm going to get the outlaw mono block, or upgrade to a projection screen about a 100inch one. was looking at the benQ projectors. i started looking at rotel amps very nice too. but right now its between the projector and outlaw amps. anybody own a projector. how is there picture.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81905 02/17/05 11:16 PM
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Outlaw is an net direct company like Axiom. There prices are in American $$.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81906 02/17/05 11:59 PM
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i just finished looking at outlaw amps. nice stuff. i was looking at the model 200 mono blocks. but i see they have a 5 channel amp the 755 model. 200wattsx5. price wise its cheaper to get that then buying 6 model 200. i think i'm going to get the 755 model.if i need one for the surround back i'll get a 200 model for it. have any of you bought from outlaw to be shipped to canada. what kind of taxes and other charges well a guy have to pay for. i live in alberta i think we have a break on some taxes from out of country but we still have some.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81907 02/18/05 12:08 AM
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Just make pretty darn sure that you will never want to do to 7.1. The 755 is 5 ch. If it were me, I would go with a Denon model an use the monoblocks to power the two fronts (if you even need to). There is not really a need for 200 watts into your center and rears, unless you have a HUGE set up.

Math:
Denon 3803- $550.00
2 Outlaw M200's- $600.00
Total- $1150

Outlaw 755- $1300.00

Re: for so long now it's true
#81908 02/18/05 12:25 AM
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I kinda disagree with that. I have a sunfire signatue bob carver grand cinema 2 amp. It powers 5 channel. let me tell you it is one hell of a powerful (425 wpc x 5) and very warm sounding amp it is bi-wired current/voltage. The rears are seldom used in the 7.1 config, but with certain material it's awesome, and makes 7.1 worthwhile. (you can make a good arguement for 7.1 not needed for most recoedings. I power my rears with the mono block amp. using the 5 channel amp for the imprtant stuff. I run a 7.1 set-up on a 5 channel amp, with the mono amp,, and it is great. P.S. Outlaw also makes a 7 channel amp, I think outlaw makes a very good amp at it's price point


Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s
Re: for so long now it's true
#81909 02/18/05 12:38 AM
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i'm going to keep my onkyo receiver and i think i'm going to get the 755 model for the simple fact; if i want to upgrade my other channels with mono blocks sepratly it would cost more. the 755 comes with a hookup to hook more amps to it like the mono block 200. so if i want to go 7.1 i'll just get two of them. but i really would like to now what kind of taxes it well be. also if running 5 speakers at 200 and leaving the back surround at 125 well it be noticable.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81910 02/18/05 12:50 AM
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so you will use the onkyo only as as pre/pro, there will be NO difference @200 watts or 125, the signal will drive them the same unless the signal exceeds 125 on the rears which is highly unlikly, and you will need ear surgery if you listen at those levels.


Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s
Re: for so long now it's true
#81911 02/18/05 12:58 AM
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yes i only well have the onkyo reciever driving one speaker the surround back since i run a 6.1 system. the 755 outlaw is only a 5 channel amp. well there be a big difference in sound if i add this amp.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81912 02/18/05 01:07 AM
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Smoke, the point is that if you're not using the full capacity of your 701 now(as is highly likely), then there'll be no difference in sound at all by adding still more unused power.


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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: for so long now it's true
#81913 02/18/05 01:21 AM
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I agree. Don't get caught up in the "Upgrade just to upgrade." Take a look at what you are using and what you NEED.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81914 02/18/05 01:49 AM
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Smokey, I think the most important channels are the front 3. I used an Onkyo TXDS 797THX receiver as a processor and outboard amps - I liked the sound much better than the Onkyo's internal amps. I used Onkyo M282 2 channel amps, then went to an Onkyo M504 honker for the front 2 and an Anthem PVA5 for the rest. On my office system, I use a Sony TAE9000ES processor and 3 mammoth Yamaha M80 amps. I rarely push more than 10 watts per channel with the Yammies, but holy samolies, they sound beautiful. The big Onk is stressed now that I went from M60 like Michaura M665 towers to a pair of huge Thiel CS3.6s.

One suggestion - buy used, go to ebay or your local classifieds and pick up some real high end 2 channel amps for a modest price.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: for so long now it's true
#81915 02/18/05 01:52 AM
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so then what are the power amps for really. big rooms or to listen at high volumes or both. i only watch movies on my home theater and very rarely ever turn it passed half on the volume. so then for me it would be a waste of money then. so then what would you reccomend a power amp for. are they only used to power speakers in big rooms. i don't now mabey i should get a lock put on my computer so i can't look at electronics. well i'll probally put this idea on ice for the time being. but instead of buying another av reciever to upgrade,i think buying an outlaw amp would be the way to go. i think what i got is good for now. like lomb said don't upgrade just to upgrade. thanks for the help and info. i just got one more question what are the signs that your reciever doesn't have the power to handle the speakers on them.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81916 02/18/05 02:02 AM
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I will try my best to answer these questions but others are far more qualified.

An amp can be used to drive set ups that demand a lot of current. I know that some out there feel the more power the better sound but I find that one hard to swallow. If you have a speaker set up that eats power to run them correctly (axioms are not one of those brands) then you may want to get an amp. Also, like you mentioned, if your listening levels exceed those of normal human beings then you may want an amp. If you want an amp, to ty out, get a used on at audiogon or ebay. I don't know the name of it but there is a canadian audio trader as well that you can use to save yourself on the import.

The signs that you need an amp are if when you turn your reciever WAY up it is still not loud enough.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81917 02/18/05 02:14 AM
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The only reason I have a seperate amp is for 2 channel lisening. So once I went that route (money route) I went 5 channel. Will a hign end 5 channel amp, or 7 channel out perform a receiver in HT, yes, but not by a over whelming amount unless you get into a real ear critical high end discusion. Then you get into a new pre/pro addition, so look at about 8k to really do that right. I bought my amp 99% for real finite music detail. If i was looking at HT/movies only I would save the money, or spend it elsewere, have you seen some of the new HD projectors (LOL) just prioritize the funds on what's important for you, there is no absolute "right" answer.


Sunfire amps & processor Sammy 50" Crown amp 2-SVS SS Maple Ultras, Axiom 60s,22s,150cc, QS8s
Re: for so long now it's true
#81918 02/18/05 02:16 AM
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In reply to:

don't know the name of it but there is a canadian audio trader as well that you can use to save yourself on the import.



i think lomb7 means Canuck AudioMart

it's a great place to look for used gear north of the border



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Re: for so long now it's true
#81919 02/18/05 02:40 AM
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i've come up with a solution. what i am going to do is just get 2 mono blocks for the fronts. then if i get a bigger room and go to 7.1 i'll get the 755 to run the other 5 channels. this way the fronts won't be sucking juice off the reciever i got and the fronts well have more then enough power. if the surrounds and center don't need anymore power then there getting then it pointless. so i'am going to try the two 200 models out, and if it doesn't sound different i'll send it back and choke on the shipping charges. it'll only cost about 700 bucks canadian for the two of them so with the money i save and the rest i have to spend on this stuff i might look at projectors(lol). then i'll have a hundred more questions. thanks everyone for the help.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81920 02/18/05 03:32 AM
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Make sure you check around to see if you can get them used or at the very least B stock from Outlaw

Re: for so long now it's true
#81921 02/18/05 03:44 AM
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The M200 is sold out of B stock a the moment.They don't come up on the used market to often.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: for so long now it's true
#81922 02/18/05 05:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
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smokey Offline OP
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yeah i see there sold out on b stock. but really it was only 60 bucks difference. about buying through online electronic wholesale websites (ebay) i'm kinda worried about that. due to hearing people getting ripped off and there stuff coming with scracthes dents ect. i'd rather just pay the amount through outlaw. it would be nice to get a deal on them some how but it probaly cost me more in the end. unless a guy got lucky.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81923 02/18/05 06:09 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Posts: 16,441
In reply to:

so then what are the power amps for really. big rooms or to listen at high volumes or both.


Peace of mind. That's what they're for. If you think that your current equipment isn't doing the job right, it's amazing what looking at more expensive or additional equipment can do to your listening pleasure. All the sudden, problems that weren't there before seem to materialize...

I've been in the "inferioirity hole" before, but with some well-reasoned thought and a better understanding of how amplifiers work (thanks to this site and Google), I realized more power was completely unnecessary in my situation. My sitution is small room (12x13x8), very efficient speakers (M22s), and a powered subwoofer (SVS PB12-ISD).

Your situation is likely different than mine. Do what you think is right and you'll be happy. 2x6 is perhaps the best example of this on the forum -- and that's not a jab, either.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81924 02/18/05 05:07 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,951
connoisseur
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I think your current final decision will make you happy, smokey!
Even if you don't really need the extra amps, they do look extremely cool and will "Wow!" friends and neighbors. They'll also be around later for expanding your system. Good call, IMO.

Re: for so long now it's true
#81925 02/18/05 11:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 85
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smokey Offline OP
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well i just got off the phone with outlaw. the price is 670 us dollars with shipping. works out to 831 canadian. then i phoned ups for the brokrage fees they were around 50 and the gst was 58. total now 939. then i phoned canada customs to see what the duty tax was. another 34 bucks down the drain. so total rounded off 1000 bucks. well i think i'll get them if not i can always send them back in 30 days if i don't like them. whats with all the taxes i feel like someones whipping me (lol).

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