Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Please help me pick

I am stuck on which package I should get for my 11X19X8 room. Should I get the Epic Grand Master or the Epic 50? Would the Epic 50 be to much for my size room or should I go with the Epic Grand Master and get a bigger sub?

i think in that size room, the Epic 50 would be about the same as the Grand Master with a bigger sub. i personally think a good sub is the key to great HT, so i would vote for the smaller system with bigger sub. just my opinion.

bigjohn

My room is 18'x27'8'. I have an M22s, VP150, QS8's and a Hsu VTF2. System sounds great.

What do you see as music vs. HT split ? If lots of music, what kind of music and how loud ?

The main advantages of the 50 over the GM here will be (a) ability to play louder, (b) ability to play music without a sub.

For movies 70% and music 30%. But when I listen to music, I listen to it loud which it's most of the times on weekends. Where can I find the HSU VTF2 Sub? One more thing. Do the QS8's sound better on stands or hung up on the wall. What I am leaning towards doing is setting up a 7.1 HT.

Hmmm. Loud music might be a good argument for the 50s.

I'm pretty sure you can order from Hsu Research right off the internet.

Surrounds are supposed to be a couple of feet higher than the ears which pretty much means "hang 'em on the wall" -- although the QSs are pretty tolerant of location so a lot of people use stands and are happy. Until I get some free time one QS8 is on the wall and the other is on a stand (actually a couple of stacked end tables plus two soup cans) which is not recommended by anyone, including myself

OK, so than that means that I will have too buy the axiom speakers seperatly instead of one whole package. I am going to stick with the M22ti's and for a sub the SVS or the HSU. I don't know wich one is better. Now for the center speaker. Would the VP100 or the VP150 be better for my size room. The center speaker is going to be placed on top of the mantle and the M22ti a little lower than the center as I have a fireplace. I'm also debating on the QS4 or the QS8. I've read that the surrounds are not used that much. Is there any good reason for me to get the QS8 instead of the QS4?

Axiom considers any 5 speakers purchased at the same time as a package, and gives you the 5% discount, same as a standard package. No worries there.

A lot of the VP100/150 and QS4/8 difference is the same thing -- ability to handle more power and play more loudly. Distance between you and the speakers seems to be the main issue. What do you think the you-to-center and you-to-surround distances will be ?

Your room seems to be right on the edge between 100/150 and 4/8 territory. Might not hurt to give Axiom a call and get their thoughts -- we can help with the blatantly obvious and devilishly subtle stuff but calling their # always seems to be time well spent.

I'm going to be 10' away from the center speaker and mains. Since I would like the 7.1 setup, the sides will be 11' from the center and the back surround will be 8' behind the listener. Is this OK?

Sounds good, Ric. You'll have plenty of room behind you for a back surround effect to develop from the 6th and 7th speakers. They probably should be separated about 8-9'. Since you'll have the back surrounds the side surrounds should be no farther back than even with the sitting position and could be slightly in front of it.

ricwilli
My vote is for the Grand Master.
After visiting some other forums, I see that your doing your homework well. Your getting some all around good advice.
Good luck with your choices and be sure and let us know how it turns out, pictures included please.
FYI: I went the HSU route and I'm very pleased, but I'm positive you could go with Axiom, HSU, or SVS and be happy. There just isnt a bad choice there.

Between those 2 I would go for the Epic 50 500.You say you like to listen to loud music and the floorstanders are probably a little better for that. I dont know what the point is of buying bookshelf sized speakers and then putting them on a stand, they still take up the same amount of space for all practical purpose.

Then again the Epic 60 500 comes with the VP-150 which I really like and the ability to go even louder for a minimal cost($422.00.) It is always better to have the ability to play louder than you usually do just to show off every now and then.

If I had it to do over again I would go with the Epic 80 600. That would get rid of any upgraditis, and actually save money in the long run.

I am dying to put up the EP 600 against my SVS. If it was better I could sell the SVS and get some money back. But it would still be cheaper or about the same to buy another SVS than upgrade it, so I cant find an economic reason to justify it. And I know 2 SVS PB-12 PLUS 2'S would blow away one EP 600. I would have liked an all Axiom system.

The M80's will play SUPER LOUD even with my 150 watt HK amp. Every now and then I think everyone gets the urge to blow the doors off the house. I get it about once a week...

OK. After being away this past weekend and thinking about which package I should get. I have decided to go with the Epic Grand Master 175 with the SVS PB10 ISD sub. I don't know if I mentioned this before but my budget is $1700. That said, I will be putting the M22ti's on brackets instead of stands. Will the sound quality suffer by me placing the speakers on brackets? I don't know how far away from the walls should the speakers be.

Before you make your final decision:

A "Mind altering, Change of Life Event" happened today.

My Grand daughter asked me to put on a cartoon DVD this morning, one with Big, Orchestral peices.

I just recieved new M50s last Friday afternoon to replace my beloved M3s. They got their first real workout on that cartoon DVD. The M3s are large enough to contain an orchestra of slightly diminished proportions, the M50s are large enough to hold a complete orchestra of full-sized instruments.

Even my wife is impressed.

Just a thought,
Rich.

Ok, maybe not "exactly" full-sized, but pretty big, (compared to the M3s) or probably the M22s as well. A large improvement none the less.

funny you should say that.. i have found that most of my animated features(finding nemo, monsters inc, spirit, bugs life, toy story, shrek, etc) have some of the best sound tracks and sound effects on my HT. i just love letting my son watch 'his' movies on the HT cause i get just as much enjoyment out of them!!

bigjohn

Me too, John. And, I don't even have any kids. I'm looking forward to The Incredibles next week.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I got out of my research and with the help of others here in deciding the M22's is that the M22's are the same as the M50's but without the "BOOM!!!" That is why I'm getting the SVS PB10 ISD sub so that I can get that "BOOM!!!". I am going to hang the M22's on the wall with brackets so that they won't take up that much space. Which brings me to the question that I asked earlier. Is the sound going to be affected while there hung on the wall with brackets?

ricwilli
I havent heard the M50s, so I cant comment on them.
I have heard the M22s, and matched with a good sub I believe your going to be VERY HAPPY.
As for the wall mount brackets, I think you are going to be fine. Those brackets should give you just enough clearance btween the wall and the speaker.
Good Luck
Bray

Actually the M22s are probably more like the M60s without the low end.

OK guys, my grandkids agree with you entirely, "Cartoons-and animated features-RULE!"

The point I was trying to make though about listening to the cartoon orchestral peices; ricwilli, was that the M50s(and I'm sure the M60s and certainly the M80s) just sound so much Bigger, more robust and even "Healthier" than the M3s on the same pieces. I'm using the same sub, receiver, same 80hz crossover point and same speaker location as I used with the M3s, so I have a pretty good comparison of the two to work from.

To level the playing field a bit toward the bookshelfs, my listening room is almost too large for the M3s-which is why I bought the M50s in the first place-and the room layout is not actually ideal for ANY type of speaker. I'll be working on room acoustics in the near future however, as well as getting my new receiver-with 60hz crossover-up and running too.

I don't know how the M22s with a sub sound compared to the M50s, but I do know there is a major difference and improvement between the M3s with a sub to M50s and a sub, in "My" room.

The m3s, at any rate just sound "Smaller" then the M50s.

Rich.

F10plus5, I believe that if you would have gotton the M22ti's instead of the M50's, that you would be saying the same thing about the M22's as your saying for the M50's. I believe you took two steps up from the M3's and got the M50's. Of course your going to hear the difference and improvement. If you would have taken only one step up from the M3's which would have been the M22's than you would still hear the difference and improvement between the M3's and M22's. I'm just a newbie but that is what I believe.

While you are no doubt correct in that he would hear something different (whether it would be an improvement to his ears or not, I'm not sure), having heard both the M22s and the M50s, the tower speakers just have a fuller sound than the bookshelves. This is not to demean the bookshelves in any way; the only ones I've heard (the M22s) are amazing.

Did I avoid offending anyone?

"the tower speakers just have a fuller sound than the bookshelves."


With the M22s backed by a good sub, I would tend to disagree.
Having the M60s and M22s at the same time I thought they sounded very simular (with speakers set to small). The M60s did fill my large listening area with more sound overall. For a listening area the size of ricwillis, I think the M22s are gonna rock.

Oh, right. I forgot to mention that we did all of our testing sans the sub. So you are probably right there.

I think I agree with you about the M22s-it can handle a larger room than the M3s-and it certainly would have been a step up. It slots in quite well between the M3 and the M50s. It beats both the M3 and M50 an clarity and accuracy acording to all reports, it also plays louder with less strain then the M3s. Where the difference comes in, and this is only to "MY" ears, is that the M50s sound like big M3s! (I've had M3s for over four years and have grown quite attached to them)so naturally I wanted to get a set of Big 3s. What suprised me however, is the small differences between the M3 and M50s. The M50s, compared to the M3s are actually slightly more Foreward! And just ever so slightly Drier. (I only notice this in stereo mode) I'm guessing the M50s are also just ever so slightly more accurate! Again, I now have a large, goofy listening area that needs lots of work and I'm driving the M50s at levels that would have the M3s to the point of gasping.(another of the reasons I purchased the M50s, the M3s were straining at HT levels) So I may well be comparing speakers at levels where the M50s are "Happy" and the M3s are "Not"

The main point that I was trying to make though, was the ammount of presence the M50s have in my room, my wife even commented on the "Robust" sound they produce compared to the "Old" speakers. And She ain't one to impress easily!

My overall impression on the M22s is that they are generally a more accurate and cleaner sounding speaker than the M50, but that they sound somewhat smaller even than the M3,(due to the way the bass is presented-the M3s cheat with a bass hump that makes then sound larger, and better able to "Stand Alone"without a sub) So I guess in this case...

(Please forgive me...)

"Size Does Matter"
Rich,

As F107 says, I think it's a function of room size. In a room that's not too big for the M22s there won't be much noticeable difference between 22s, 50s, 60s, or even 80s in terms of "ability to fill the room". BTW the same goes for M2s in a small enough room.

As the room gets bigger, you need bigger speakers (probably bigger driver area is what matters) or you start hitting the limits of what the speakers can do comfortably. In a 13x23 room M2s "hit the wall" when you try to play loudly -- I imagine M22s with twice the driver area would be noticeably better in that room.

Make the room bigger again, and I expect the M50s would really come into their own. If you measure the active area of the drivers (using the center of the surround) you get roughly 4" for the smaller drivers and 5.5" for the larger drivers -- 12.5 vs. 23 square inches of surface area respectively -- so the difference from M2 to M22 should be about the same as the difference from M22 to M50. Interestingly enough the M3 and M22 have about the same driver area so it probably is frequency response that accounts for one sounding larger than the other standalone.

I forget the term -- might be "dynamic compression" -- when you reach the point where cranking the volume up doesn't make the SPL go up as much any more, but it is noticeable and the M22s should hit that point before the M50s.

From the Axiom site -- "A sub-sat system... with the M22s... gives up only the ability to play at extremely loud levels in larger rooms to floor standing speakers...".

EDIT -- for ricwilli's room (11x19x8 ?) the M22s would be more than enough for HT (ie I don't think they would hit their limits at all), only concern is how loud "loud music" really means. For some people (self included) loud music can be REALLY loud

I think your right bridgman about the loudness. For me, I might have over expressed the word "LOUD". But its good to know that the M22 is more than enough for my size room. Ok this week I'll be ordering the M22's, QS8's, VP100 and the SVS PB10 ISD Sub. I'm actually going to try to order them today if I have some time. I hope I don't need an amp for all this stuff. I'm also going to go search for some speaker plates.