Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Worth adding center only to bookshelves + sub?

I have a pair of M3Ti's and a HSU-TN1220HO in our formal living/dining area that we once had every intention of using as a "2.1" music-only system, but my wife and I were so amazed at the sound after adding the sub that we became determined to get a front projector + portable screen and get invisible home theater capability.

However, since it's in a formal living/dining room area, it was controversial enough to have the M3Ti's visible at all, so they were stuck up in the top corners of the room (resulting in a rather boomy sound until we got the sub). The TN-1220HO happily fits invisibly behind the audio cabinet. What I'm saying is that there's no possibility of surrounds in the near future because (a) they'd interfere with the decor and (b) I'm too damn lazy to string wires through walls.

But it occurs to me that it wouldn't be a big deal logistically speaking to place a (portable) center speaker under the portable screen, and activate the center channel in the receiver, when we watch DVDs.

Would "3.1" make a big difference in the sound over "2.1"? Would adding a (presumably) VP100 really make a difference? My guess is that for the main seating position it wouldn't, at least judging from the quality of the music there, but if we have another 8 people sitting around in chairs all over the room then a center channel would help keep the dialog focused on the screen for them.

Any comments?

Thanks --Martin

Martin, you're exactly right; a center speaker would "anchor" dialog or other center sound to the TV or movie screen for someone who was sitting far off center. For those near the center the M3s would form a "phantom" center which may be as good or better than using a separate center speaker.

You know, I was pretty sure a center speaker is helpful for anchoring the dialog, but what was giving me doubts was my little experiment. I have a speaker I wasn't using because I suspected it was pretty lousy (it's a Panasonic that came free with my receiver because of some promotion). Not sure why I'd think it's lousy: the fact that it's Panasonic or the fact they were giving it away for free.

Anyways, I had hooked it up, turned on "center", and found that the sound quality just went to hell. (Pardon my my French.) For one thing, the efficiency of this speaker was ridiculously lower than the M3Ti and the center volume had to be cranked up. But I guess the match between L/R and C was just so bad it killed any pretense of "soundstage" (for want of a less snooty word). The Panasonic was just screaming, "Hey I'm over here!"

So back to the shelf the Panasonic went, where it'll remain until I need more room on that shelf.

All right, Axiom will get a bit more business from me after all!

Thanks! --Martin

I guess that I have a similar story. As those that read these forums know, I hemmed and hawed (sp?) quite a bit on the HT vs stereo decision for quite some time. Finally just decided that all I really wanted was stereo, so I purchased some m60's and an HK 3480 2 channel receiver. Here's where it gets interesting I guess...

Before getting the receiver, I couldn't hook all the components (playstation2, VCR, DVD) at the same time. Since the HK supported video pass through for three devices I thought it would be a nice bonus to be able to have all devices hooked up at the same time so that I could watch DVD's again (with the sound routed through the HK to the Axioms). I know, my daughter will just watch DVD's through the playstation, but she hadn't given me a lesson yet, so I would just crawl behind the TV to swap cables when I wanted to watch a DVD. What a pain!

Well, I was absolutely blown away by how good they sounded (listening to Monsters Inc, and The Matrix). I wasn't expecting much since I didn't have a sub or center channel not to mention surrounds, but I was even more impressed by the 2.0 HT sound than the 2.0 stereo sound. These Axioms rock!

Anyway, enough of my rambling. Martin - please let us know how the center improves the sound for you. I might be following you down that road before long...

Hello Martin,

The Panasonic screamed, "Hey, I'm over here," likely because of its horrible coloration, and our ears are particularly acute about coloration on human voices. No hard feelings toward Panasonic, but most Japanese-branded speakers are fairly crummy (I've been to Japan numerous times and they just don't "get" speaker design, which is great for American, Canadian and British speaker companies). Panasonic, Sony, Yamaha, etc. do fine design in many other areas.

You could try a third M3ti or VP100 on a stand of some kind under the screen when you view DVDs. Don't put it on the floor. As JohnK mentioned, it will anchor the dialog for viewers to the sides. Having the dialog appear off-screen to one side for off-axis listeners, which will result if you do not use a center channel, is most disconcerting.

Regards,

If I were building a H/T system piece by piece I would buy surrounds before I bought a center.
In recent weeks I 've decided that (in the sweet spot) a phantom center works as well and sometimes better than a dedicated center.
Just my .02 worth.

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I 've decided that (in the sweet spot) a phantom center works as well and sometimes better than a dedicated center.

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Same here! In the sweet spot, the pan is seamless and dialog is perfectly clear and not mucked up by having two different kinds of speakers in the front (I bet Dennis' 3 M80s across the front sounds fantastic).

Off axis listening (one seat over L/R in my case) is not bad in my room with my Maggies. I could see off axis listening being a problem if the seating position was, say, 5 feet or more L/R.

I tried the VP150, and its a great unit, but becasue I had limited mounting options for it did not work for me. Was a lot more effort to 'fit' the M80 in as a center, but I feel it was worth it, having the three M80s for the front, to me is the ultimate, the sound is simply amazing.

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but I feel it was worth it, having the three M80s for the front, to me is the ultimate,

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You're preachin' to the choir here my friend.
If one must use a center speaker, three identical speakers across the front makes perfect sense to me.

Martin,
I'll give you a little insight to help you along with your dilemma regarding a center channel speaker. I recently ordered/received a VP100 to go with my M60's. This speaker is amazing. To echo JohnK and Alan's comments, it definitely "anchors" the dialogue! My wife noticed this immediately and is happy with our new addition. I haven't had much time lately to listen/watch movies however my initial reaction was "why didn't I do this sooner"? I'll probably be saying this again when I complete my home theatre system (QS8's & EP350). My wife suggested that we purchase the balance of the system for our son's first birthday this June! This is one of the reason's why I married her!!!
Good luck with your next Axiom purchase.
Cheers,
Shaun

Hello Martin,
I cannot tell you about the effect of adding a center, but I can give you my experience with M3s in 2.0 configuration with our TV. I end up sitting way off axis, most of the time. I am amazed at how the sound stays anchored on the TV. "This should not work" but at least in my situation, it does. YMMV but you can try it easily in your existing setup, just sit yourself in various locations to compare.
Here's our setup. Room is 22x11x8, speakers and TV centered on the long wall. Speakers are no more than 6 feet apart, flanking the TV, and we watch from 9 feet away or so. I end up sitting at the computer which is on the opposite wall from the TV, but about 3 feet outside of the right speaker. It still sounds great from over there. Since my wife hates bass, we probably will not change from this configuration.....
I think you have a larger space, so the effect may change in your environment, but the phantom center works amazingly well for us.

I think the secret in your system is that the speakers are relatively close together compared to your seating distance. If you were sitting closer or if the speakers were further apart you would see more apparent movement of the sound when you sat off to one side.

There's probably a formula for this but I don't have it

John and Bryan, it couldn't be termed a "formula", but a mono or stereo sound equal in volume from the two main speakers will move along with the listener as goes from one side to the other, but won't move out farther than the speaker on that side. If, as John noted, the speakers have a relatively narrow separation not far outside the TV, the center image isn't going to get far outside the screen and won't be as objectionable.

Well, I decided to give the VP100 a try; it's already been shipped so I'll have it by next week...

Part of me regrets every so slightly not just getting a third M3Ti, since it is cheaper and lighter and matching is a non-issue, but on the other hand the VP100 can sit flat on a side table under the (future) projector screen when we're doing the HT thing and look like it belongs, whereas putting the M3Ti there might appear a bit odd.

FYI, my room size is 23x16x9, with the M3Ti in the front top corners of the room, painfully close to 3 walls (WAF ). The HSU TN-1220HO is hidden in the RH front corner behind an armoire that holds the Panasonic DVD/CD player and receiver (plus 2 cooling fans from Radio Shack ). The LH front corner holds a piano, which kind of limited the options for placement of the speakers eh?

The main seating position is a sofa almost exactly in the middle of the room facing a bay window, where we'll put a portable projection screen when we want to watch a movie. The geometry and the room in the bay window should allow approx. 72" diagonal, but the exact dimensions will depend on whatever portable screen I manage to find. The projector is on order: it's the Optoma H31, bought from Costco.com. I'm not sure if it's the right projector for us, but heck Costco is only charging $12 shipping and handling, and the rest is 100% refundable no questions asked at our local Costco if we don't like it! Gotta love Costco. The projector will sit on the coffee table in front of the sofa. Behind the sofa is the formal dining area, which will serve as the cheap seats if we have people over for a movie.

I'll report back when I've had a chance to try out the 3.1, especially if I get the HT set up too.

One more thought: like I said, I had never intended ever to put in HT here. Our TV is the once-best 27" Sony (which I selected--I kid you not--solely because Consumer Reports gave this model the best rating for sound ), but is in a completely different room. I thought that one day I might put in the surround sound in that family room, and maybe upsize the TV or whatnot, but now I realize that the living room is probably preferable for HT for a simple reason: the floors are carpeted in the living room, and the family room has laminate flooring. So when a friend told me about front projectors, and my wife commented that the sound of the 2.1 was so impressive we should put in HT, and it all fit together. We have our almost invisible but excellent sound system. Then, we can watch a movie on a portable screen using a tabletop projector and a temporary center speaker, all without interfering with the decor.

--Martin

Great Martin. I look forward to your review of the 3.1 system.