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Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87285 04/04/05 06:45 PM
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axiomite
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axiomite
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I don't know if this is a factor but when ripping my LPs onto CD the big thing I found is that because of the fixed-point digital format you have to be really paranoid about not clipping the CD recording, cause it sounds BAD !!

There seem to be four options :

1. Keep the recording levels low -- sounds crappy and lifeless

2. Compress the he** out of the signal -- sounds loud and lifeless

3. Run through the entire recording to find the highest peak and adjust level for that -- you end up like #1 but only after 4 hours of cursing

4. Some combination of the above -- fudge recording levels on a track by track or moment-by-moment basis to get high levels and good sound normally but dampen down the peaks.

Strictly speaking #3 is a no-brainer these days -- just capture the audio at a much higher resolution than 16 bits/sample so you can play with the levels and not lose anything.

I think this is one of those tube/SS things. LPs are generally worse except for one important thing -- when you overdrive them the sound degrades gracefully unless the cutting needle rips through to the adjacent track. CDs are superior in every respect except they can't handle the peaks.

In theory I assume HDCD and SACD should be better, but so far I imagine the different mixes overshadow any technical differences. Thoughts ?


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Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87286 04/04/05 06:48 PM
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axiomite
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In reply to:

If people spent more time listening to the actual bands/producers/engineers instead of scientists



If ppl actually listened to scientists we wouldn't have global warming.
Hence, i beliieve people have been listening to anyone but. Maybe it is time for a change.



"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87287 04/04/05 07:03 PM
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In reply to:

OK, I will. That's nice information and I appreciate it from a learning standpoint but listening has nothing to do with waveforms.


Meaning what... it has more to do with the psychological effect of listening to an analog source - analog is inherently smoother, right?

A waveform is the visualization of the voltage used to create the sound wave - listening has everything to do with waveforms... that's what any player - vinyl, CD, cassette, reel-to-reel - is doing, rebuilding the waveform from the recorded information. Unless you've got the original chanteuse in the room with you moving air with her lungs and vocal chords, you need a representation of that to send to your speakers. This is a waveform.

CD players rebuild it at 44,100 times a second with 65,536 different amplitude levels by reading data off a disc with a laser. Record players do it by running a needle attached to a magnet (talking moving magnet cartridges here - what you'll often find in home electronics) through a groove cut in a record... little bumps on the inside of the grooves vibrate the needle back and forth, which causes the magnet, suspended between two coils to disrupt the energy flow through the coils, causing DC voltage to be produced. I forget the exact voltage range - been a while since I needed to know this... but it's a lot lower than line level, which is why there are phono preamps.

So as you see, all any player does is recreates the original waveform.

In reply to:

Besides, most recording folks, esp in rock, are disgusted at how their music comes across on cd.


I will agree with this. Most old-school engineers don't understand digital and can't mix well for it. And the young ones compress the hell out of everything for that massive wall-of-sound, louder=better sound that's prevalent on new CDs.

Technically, vinyl can record more minute changes (nearly an infinite amount of resolution - there are more than 65,536 physical sizes of these bumps on the inside grooves on a record) but by the time you factor in the pressing process, in which a lot of the fine detail is lost, and the fact that vinyl is a sacrificial medium - with a stylus tip exerting 2 tons of tracking force into the groove, it breaks down with every play.

In reply to:

If people spent more time listening to the actual bands/producers/engineers instead of scientists, more people would be aware instead lps remain a niche market, enjoyed by musicians, engineers, poor students, and audiophiles.


How many engineers actually record in an analog state now, anyway? It looks like the A-D codes on CDs are no longer used that often (anyone remember the first time they bought a CD with a (DDD) code on it? Digital recording, Digital mastering, Digital delivery?) If they were still used, I'm not sure there would still be a lot of AADs out there. Even for the engineers, flying faders, if nothing else, have made the move to digital very appealing. One touch and all the faders zip to the last preset position for that track.

I remember vinyl. I remember pops, clicks, fights about how best to store vinyl (like glass - it's just a very slow moving liquid - stand it up on end, it gets ripples, lay it down, the grooves flatten out), the magic touch of setting all the balance controls on the tone arm until you had the needle riding in the track just perfectly - for that one recording. The high fidelity EPs at 45RPM on a 12" platter. I remember all that, as a piece of history.

Bren R.

Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87288 04/04/05 08:47 PM
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axiomite
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Bren...that's one of the best/most informative posts I've read on here in a long while.

Thanks.



Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87289 04/04/05 09:35 PM
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shareholder in the making
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In reply to:

like glass - it's just a very slow moving liquid


There is actually no conclusive evidence that suggests glass is a liquid. The following quote comes from here.


"There have been many claims (especially by tour guides) that such glass is deformed because the glass has flowed slowly over the centuries. This has become a persistent myth, but close inspection shows that characteristic signs of flow, such as flowing around, and out of the frame, are not present. The deformations are more consistent with imperfections of the methods used to make panes of glass at the time. In some cases gaps appear between glass panes and their frames, but this is due to deformations in the lead framework rather than the glass. Other examples of rippling in windows of old homes can be accounted for because the glass was imperfectly flattened by rolling before the float glass process came into use."

I place myself in the camp that most kinds of glass (including all modern types) are not liquid.

Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87290 04/04/05 10:50 PM
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Today I learned about flat glass. I love it when I get random information from unexpected sources. And who would of thought that they use molten tin to make flat glass!

jr


"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." C Hitchens
Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87291 04/05/05 06:09 PM
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local
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chessaro, now your analogy makes no sense and has no relation to the topic at hand. any scientist would tell you so.

Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87292 04/05/05 06:17 PM
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local
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"Bren...that's one of the best/most informative posts I've read on here in a long while.

Thanks. "

Agreed! But I still prefer vinyl. Cleansed records on a decent table will not have pops or hiss. It's a pain in the rear-end but I still prefer it. There are days when I'm lazy or don't have a copy on vinyl - that's when I play the cds.

The soundstage is massively wide and emanates beyond the speakers. The science may tell us it's not as exacting as digital and although I believe this, I prefer that glorious soundstage. It's also a warmer sound. Btw, there is nothing wrong with trying to have a verbiage or language to represent how things sound. If we humans didn't have a language to express ourselves, we probably wouldn't have the ability to know if things sounded different in the first place.


Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87293 04/05/05 06:43 PM
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axiomite
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Roffmuff,

In reply to:

now your analogy makes no sense



I'm sorry you don't understand.
I'll dumb it down for you next time.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Suggestions & Ideas for 2.1 w/80s...
#87294 04/05/05 06:57 PM
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connoisseur
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Random musings about thoughts/ideas posed in this - and similar threads;

- there is no scientific measurement to show "warmth", "forwardness", "openness" or "wide soundstage" of equipment.
- glass is not an interesting subject, except when my drink is empty.
- the medium of vinyl is flawed, but with exceptional care, IMHO it sounds better on a turntable of quality, than that of a CDP of quality.
- CD sound has vastly improved from the original mass marketed machines from the mid 1980's
- BrenR needs to get out more often, he spends FAR too much time researching...."It's a little known fact" - Cliff Claven
- If we listened to scientists, we would land on Mars - oh wait, we missed just that ONCE, when we could not determine if the measurements were in Metric, or Imperial units - proving that it really WAS rocket science!!!

Seemingly we have entered another of the "Great Audio Debate Topics" threads!

Chess, that edge seems to have returned with you...it does nothing to enhance your intelligent thoughts.


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