Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Equalization

Hi folks,

I am new to the message board but I've had my M22s' for about a year now. I am no "Audiophile" (perhaps an Audiofool) but I love these little jems. I use them in a two channel music only system along with an NHT SA2 amp with two slave subs (sw2si). The overall sound is amazing but the funny thing is that the better it sounds the more I want, thus, the "audiofool".

The rest of my system consists of: Odyssey Audio Stratos amp, Anthem Pre-2L SE tubed pre-amp, CAL Audio Alpha tubed DAC with Pioneer CDP as transport, Sony SACD/DVD player(DVNXX?"&*sominorother), Denon DVD 3000, Sansui TU-X1 tuner. The wire I use is thick copper(and thats all I want to say about "wire" as I can't tell the difference between a $500/ft wire and a $1.50/ft wire}.

I also have a seperate HT system employing KEF Q series speakers all around and hooked up to a Denon 3200 with an outboard Technics processor for DTS/AC3. But my main hobby is two channel listening and for that I love the smooth, balanced and open sound of the M22s' even above that of the KEFs' and NHT Super Twos' I just sold.

Several months ago, I got "upgradeitis" for new speakers. I compared the M22 to the likes of Linn, ProAC, Sonus, Vienna, Polk, Paradigm, Magnepan and several other mid-hi speakers. With the exception of the Magnepan MG12s(I bought them) I didn't find any of these to be a significant upgrade to the Axioms yet they were all waaaay more expensive. They all sound different from the Axioms and each other and they all certianly play well in the audio press but the Axioms just sound right. I now interchange the Maggies and Axioms in the "music only" system depending on my mood. The M22s now mostly reside in my son's room. But one thing is for sure, they will never leave my house.

BUT HEY, enough of the personal stuff. I have a few questions.

I recently read a few reviews (Absoulute Sound for one) on the Behringer DSP 8024 Ultracurve Pro Digital Processor (reads pro equalizer) and I am intrigued. Does anyone have any thoughts on equalization and even perhaps this particular product (it got great press and its cheap too)? I know many "Audiophiles" consider EQ to be heresey but I really don't give a damn if I can smooth out the ole fq spectrum in my room without a bunch of expensive and ugly room treatments. But I've never used an EQ so I am hoping some of you all might be able to enlighten me.

My second question: What ever happend to BBIBH?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and happy listening!

MWC

I, too, have read many positive reports on the Behringer 8024 equalizer in various forums. The built-in spectral analyzer and instant automatic room-EQ seems to me highly useful, or at the very least it would be worth trying, especially given the almost unbelievably low price of, what, $180 or so? I also agree that the Behringer is arguably the best stand-alone EQ in the market right now. The only thing that I personally do not care too much is its utilitarian "pro" looks, but the design surely seems highly functional. I myself do not have an EQ right now, but one of my local friends has a 1/2-octave digital EQ (sorry, do not recall the brand) and it did seem to work quite nicely in his room.

In reply to:

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I know many "Audiophiles" consider EQ to be heresey but I really don't give a damn if I can smooth out the ole fq spectrum in my room without a bunch of expensive and ugly room treatments.

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I think the skepticism against EQ has its deep roots back in the analog multi-band EQs of olden days, which contained many non-linear parts such as cored coils and could sound terrible indeed. But today's DSP-based digital EQs have entirely changed the situation; they do not introduce any measurable distortion, transients or noise. I do concur that if you can modify and tune your listening room to a near-perfect acoustic condition, that would be best, and an EQ would never serve as a replacement for truly good room acoustics. But the reality is, as you said, it is often impossible without (and often even with) exotic room treatments. IMHO, those who argue flatly against good-quality digital EQs is plain illogical. Those same people do enjoy fully digital source materials and encoding technologies. Even if they do not use an EQ, their amps or pre-pro's already have a bunch of DSPs and much hated digital-evils inside!

I would definitely give it a try... And, if you decide to go for one, please come back and give us your impressions!

Oh, by the way, how much was your pair of Magnepans?

Cheers!

Sushi,

Thanks for the great insight on the EQ. I agree that it does not have that "show piece" look to it but that it would be highly useful. BTW, the $180 you mentioned does not include the microphone and the digital input upgrade.

I will probably order one sometime in March when the mic becomes available. It seems that every where I look, they(the mic) are on back order. I have been looking for a local dealer in the DFW TX. area but haven't found one yet. If you know of any in our area let me know.

I paid $1095 + tax for the Magnepans. Thats full retail price. Now, I'm not crazy about paying full retail for anything, but MG12s are almost impossible to find used and it seems that ol' Jim Winey and family keep a tight grip on its dealers not to discount the Maggies. On top of that, there is only one Magnepan dealer(Audio Concepts on Preston) in the DFW metro area so they probably don't have to discount them to sell them. After all, they are an amazing speaker and IMHO worth it.

Happy listening

Mike,

You piqued my curiosity... It has been long time since I listened to any planner/ribbon speakers (except for the Martin Lorgan electrostatics which are ubiquitous, expensive, but I do not necessarily like much). Perhaps I will visit Audio Concepts soon just to satisfy my curiosity. [Do not worry Axiom, I will surely order your models when time comes! LOL]

But... hey, I just realized that I have finally found a proud Axiom owner in the DFW area! Would you possibly allow me to hear your system, perhaps both Axioms and Magnepans side-by-side? If yes, please PM me...

Cheers!

I find the idea of using an EQ like this interesting. I currently use the the Behringer BFD to EQ my sub, and it made a noticeable difference in the overall response of my subwoofer, much smoother and flatter once I got the BFD dialed in.

I've considered the possibility of EQ'ing the mains, but the reason I've held back is because it would mean adding an extra Analog/Digital/Analog conversion to the output chain, which I can't help but think would have a negative impact on the sound quality. After all I recently spent what was for me a small fortune moving to separates, including a pre/pro whose sound quality I'm quite happy with. I wouldn't want to degrade that by adding a digital EQ with questionable DAC's and/or ADC's to the mix.

jkohn,

I'm hip to your jive brother! I too am very happy with my separates and would not want to give up anything in sound quality because of an inferior DAC. But the two reviews (current issue of Absoulute Sound and Enjoy the Music.com) I've seen on the Ultracurve Pro are mighty convincing.

In the AS review, the reviewer recommends it for eqing the sub only and for "experimental" purposes. The reviewer at ETM.Com rcommends it for the whole system. I know there are frequency "suckouts" and "humps" in my/all system at the listen position (my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter confirms this) and its buggin' the crap out of me knowing that, as good as my system sounds, it could sound better without the hills and valleys . Having to give up sound quality for flatter response really sucks but I wonder just how much sound quality would really suffer. Perhaps I'll get one for the sub only and then, for the heck of it, eq the whole system. I'll never know unless I try it, besides its not gosh awful expensive . I'll give you a report if I decide to go ahead.

If you have the spare change and maybe need a pre-amp upgrade at same time, jump for a TacT (I got the 2.0, they have couple last left, otherwise it's $1000+ more for the newer 2.2). Equalizer is basically a freebie with it. I heard it in couple setups and it drastically improves the sound (also in mine), wider soundstage, way better bass. Lots of money though ... Running it with Odyssey monoblocks as well BTW ;-)

Wow! TacT also makes 6-channel (and 10-channel) pre-pro with a room equalization system.

Model TCS 6.0 AA for an affordable US$8,490!!!

prz, you must be a pretty rich person!

Cheers!

prz,

Where did you get you TacT? I have the Odyssey Stratos. I'm thinking about having my stratos upgraded to monoblock. Do you think there would be a big benifit by going with the mono's?

Cheers,
mwc

first, sushi, 2.0 is right now around 4+K$ if you can settle for 2 channels only without upsampling, that's what I got. Consider that you're getting very high quality DAC and ADC (I got the AA version) a digital/analog preamp _and_ room correction. Try to throw all that as single components (assuming you get just a good equalizer for the room correction which does not stand up to TacT) and you'll be astonished how quickly 4k$ go. As to even blowing 4k$ for it, try to find a place and hear the difference, you may be surprised how much better it sounds corrected with well-recorded CDs. But of course it's a component trap, next you buy good amp, good transport and good boxes (M80s ;-) and the bill ends up.

mwc, as to the Odyssey, don't know, I bought the dual mono straight since the price difference is not that much and I heard the difference in other gear between monos and normal amping and it was significant. So far I like the Odyssey a lot (read my other post in another thread: m80s and odyssey) but it's not broken in yet.

TacT I got directly from them in New Jersey, they still had 5 or so 2.0s left, 2.2 was too expensive for me and I don't want to do the 4-channel or bi-amping later so I started that way. I would have liked the 2.2s upsampling though ;-)

--- tony

I'm with Sushi on this one. However, I'll admit to being biased by years of live audio engineering. I wouldn't choose EQ over speaker positioning, but some rooms make for a thin line between optimal speaker position and an irate spouse. :-) And occasionally you run into a recording that needs help, and it's impractical to move your speakers for different sources. Live recordings are typically the sources needing different treatment for me, For example, in my room Metheny's "80/81" begs for some EQ. If you know what you're doing, equalization is not evil. It's all in how and why it's applied. The same is true for delay.

I own three Behringer DSP8024 equalizers, and I'm very happy with them; the price to performance ratio is admirable. However, note that they really want you to use balanced I/O if you're going to use analog, so you'll need a converter. I prefer completely passive units when using the analog I/O if I need to interface to unbalanced consumer gear. Right now I'm using a Rane BB44X Balance Buddy in the family room for this reason (and the fact that it was lying in the studio unused :-)).

There is an AES/EBU option for the DSP8024, which might permit you to stay in the digital domain until the outputs of the DSP8024 and possibly further... some gear will permit interconnecting AES/EBU and S/PDIF. However, it doesn't work in all cases, and to my knowledge the DSP8024 is using 48kHz internally so you're going to wind up with sampling rate conversion for 44.1kHz sources/sinks. In all likelihood, unless you've got pro gear mixed in, you're just as well off with the balanced analog I/O (and the resulting A/D and D/A conversions).

It's really hard to beat the DSP8024 for the price ($180 or so). The other digital option in this price range is the Alesis DEQ230 (DEQ230D for AES/EBU), which is on my list to replace the DSP8024 in the studio (mostly because it's easier to read from across the room).

I'd personally much prefer a high quality parametric EQ in the family room, but I had the DSP8024 lying around and some room issues I needed to solve without winding up in divorce court. :-) It's only on my mains, not the center channel or rears. The RTA and auto-eq is handy, but essentially a one-shot kind of thing to get you in the ballpark once you've done the best you can with speaker positioning. You can't correct terrible speaker positioning with equalization, but the RTA and auto-eq can be a big help, especially to those short on patience, floor space, etc. At a minimum it'll help you track progress of your speaker positioning. A pro would use a much better RTA and software, but the DSP8024 RTA isn't bad, especially considering the price.

One handy thing about digital EQs is being able to make up for lack of bass management. My first handful of programs in the DSP8024 in the family room only differ in the 20Hz to 100Hz range. I only wish it had a remote control so I didn't have to get up to change the program (no MIDI in the family room :-)).