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Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90491 04/23/05 05:53 AM
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In reply to:

Turtles have ears, right, or ear holes? Maybe there's an Axiom newsletter in all of this: "Audible frequency ranges of animals, birds, turtles." I'll give you credit in the footnotes.



Sorry, seems like I'm a week behind in messages here. Damn playoffs! Turtles have "tympanic membranes" (well, "sliders" do)... she doesn't have an ear canal, she's got two "eardrums" right on the sides of her head.

Bren R.

Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90492 04/23/05 01:02 PM
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Amazing the gymnastics "life" went through to get to(and sometimes surpass)"Us" in some areas. Huh?

I guess "imaging" would be a problem for your average turtle.-Then again, I can't spot a 2" snack from 3000 ft either.

Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90493 04/23/05 01:12 PM
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oops, I meant to see like a bird, not like a turtle.

Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90494 04/23/05 02:55 PM
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Alan,

For a more accurate, scientific bass-bass test, wouldn't it have been better to have used a "bass boat"?

Larry


LIFE: "Choices, balance, and timing"

(Larryism)
Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90495 04/23/05 05:15 PM
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Don't know about fish, but all these friggin plants I have sure like tunes. I took a four week trip to Europe and my house sitter didn't play the stereo, just watered the buggers as I asked her to. When I came home, they all looked about half dead. A week later, they had all perked back up again. Strangest thing......

And if you're wondering if I'm a bunny hugging plant lover, I'm not. The X got a new house and all the cash, I got the plants. But I'm not bitter....I kept my tools.


Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90496 04/25/05 04:08 AM
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Finally a subject I know a fair bit about (as I’m a fish biologist). Here’s an explanation about how fish hear and I’ll end with sort of an answer to Mark’s question. I wasn’t going to bore you all with this the first time around, but now that this post has resurfaced I can’t help myself. So for those not biologically inclined, skip on down to the bottom or skip it altogether.

Although not that well understood, fish (true fish, not marine mammals like whales and dolphins) can hear, but not like you and I. The main “hearing” organs are the lateral line that runs down the side of their bodies and is porous and filled with water, the inner ear called the otolith (they have no middle or outer ear that is connected to the outer body like mammals) and in teleost (bony) fish a gas-filled swimbladder. The lateral line detects low-frequency (<100 Hz) particle motion in the water contacting the flanks of the fish and the otolith, located within the head of fish, is sensitive to frequencies of up to 1-3 kHz. The inner ear is thought to be the main sensory organ involved and is sensitive to vibration rather than sound pressure. The swimbladder of teleost fish (most aquarium fish are of this type) acts as transducer that converts sound pressure waves to vibrations that picked up by the otolith.

Sensitivity to noise and vibration differs among fish species and is largely related to the anatomy of the swimbladder and its proximity or connection to the inner ear. Those fish that don’t have swimbladders (e.g. elasmobranches like sharks and tune) or have poorly developed swim bladders (e.g. many benthic, or bottom dwelling, fish like flounder and sculpins) are least sensitive to sound. Amoung the more hearing sensitive teleost fish some have a gas duct connecting the swimbladder to the otolith (e.g. fish in the herring family) making them moderately sensitive to sound. Minnows and other fish in the cyprinid family (including goldfish) have a bony coupling called Weberian ossicles that connects the swimbladder to the inner ear. These fish are much more hearing-sensitive fish. There are therefore three broad groups of low-, medium- and high-sensitivity fish.
Auditory thresholds, or the minimal level of sounds that a fish can detect at a particular frequency 50% of the time have been measured for a variety of different species obtained in a number of laboratories. The graph below includes goldfish (Carassius), a high-sensitivity fish, Atlanitic salmon (Salmo salar) which hears very poorly and is considered a hearing 'generalist', cod (Gadus morhua) which is known to detect high frequency sounds to at least 38 kHz (although the data below doesn’t represent the ultrasonic detection capabilities of the species), a tuna (Euthynnus) is a tuna without a swimbladder and, like Salmo, is a hearing generalist and finally, a damselfish (Eupomacentrus) which is considered to be moderately sensitive to sound.



As you can see, goldfish, and possibly other aquarium species, has the lowest auditory threshold which for frequencies < 1 kHz is down around the 60 – 80 dB level. How much loud sounds from outside a fish tank maintain their dB level into the tank, I’m not sure. But I’d guess the dB’s don’t get dampened much by the time such sounds reach a fish. Sound travels 5 times faster in water and the glass tank walls and the water will reflect sound waves. One site I looked up said if “you tap the tank, stand or table holding a tank it will send very loud noises into the water, noises that could cause shock and stress to fish”. I guess Pixar got it right in that scene from Finding Nemo when Darla, the brace-mouthed girl, tapped on the fish tank. One site specializing in goldfish says “The tank should be kept where the fish will be spared from excessive noise or thumping(stereos, speakers, etc.).”.

So Mark, to make a long story short, if you are going to put an aquarium in your HT room it would seem fish such as sharks, tuna and salmon would be ok choices (depending on your preferred listening level) and choosing goldfish would be just plain cruel. Thought about the kitchen or bedroom?

Paul


Last edited by PaulM; 04/25/05 04:12 AM.
Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90497 04/25/05 04:52 AM
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Now THAT'S what I call an informative post. I can't believe you almost didn't post this, especially given its relevance!

I watched Finding Nemo 3 or 4 times this weekend. (My son has the stomach flu so we spent most of the weekend on the couch.) Pixar did a ton of research on this film. All the animators were 'forced' to get scuba certified as part of their research. I can imagine they also placed microphones into fish tanks and tapped on the glass to research that scene.

Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90498 04/25/05 12:33 PM
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Well, if that isn't just the coolest, most informative post ever! I had no idea there was a marine biologist on the boards! Gentleman, a salute to the most thorough, informative answer ever to a question many would consider stupid!

OK, since I have an expert here:
In reply to:

fish such as sharks, tuna and salmon would be ok choices {{SNIPPED}} Thought about the kitchen or bedroom?




Along the lines of my original question, wouldn't putting a tuna in my kitchen to watch us eat lunch and dinner every day be just as cruel as U-571 would be for the Goldfish in the living room?

Seriously, thanks for a great response. You've saved countless little fish from a life of stress and myself countless hours getting them to take little tiny Xanaxs'!


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90499 04/25/05 02:16 PM
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You didn't know there were reseachers on the board? You should check out the profiles more often. It's astounding to see the wide range of folks on the forums, although admittedly it seems there are few scientists overall.

So the next logical question is this, is there a difference b/w salt water and freshwater species (difference in water density) such that anyone at home running a HT with either setup may be able to get away with having one or the other as a preference in order to save the 'hearing' of the fish?

For those still interested in what the heck an 'otolith' is (the fish ear bone in a sense, no pun intended), here's a micro picture from my personal archives a lovely Salvelinus namaycush, the great lake trout.



Incidentally, if you count the rings you can estimate the age of the fish just like a tree. For anyone considering tossing some lake trout into their home aquariums, we've clocked one of our samples at 55 years of age!!
I hope the HT components are well chosen b/c you would be in it for the long haul, unless of course the fish hit the dinner plate before it hit old age.



"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Something smells fishy around here…..
#90500 04/25/05 04:42 PM
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Paul
Thanks for the great post.
How would Discus (Symphysodum discus) and other South American Cichlids fair in a LOUD room?


LIFE IS SHORT.
DON'T BE A DICK.
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