Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo What is Loud?

I'm very close to buying a pair of m80's. After much research - both reading and hearing - and also considering my budget - I believe they're a good match for me, and I won't have any regrets.

My question is this: Where are the BIG speakers? Does anyone make BIG speakers for home audio anymore? I'm replacing my 30+ year old Altec Voice of the Theaters - which aren't all THAT bad, but they do have their troubles. One thing they have no trouble with is filling a room - or a house, actually - with sound. Big sound. Yes, they have an "uneven response," and get muddy now and again, but one thing's for sure. It's LOUD. So, I'm asking - how can I expect a physically small specimen to compare? What are the compromises? Why are large speakers practically nonexistent? When I want LOUD, I mean, HAVE TO STAND OUTSIDE TO PREVENT INJURY kinda loud. Did I mention I'd like GOOD sound too? Thanks for any wisdom you can throw my way!

Your ears will bleed and you'll go deaf before the M80ti's break a sweat. Thuderous bass should be handled by a good subwoofer, regardless of what speakers you end up with. The new EP500 and EP600 subs are up to the task. (As is the VTF-3 MKII from Hsu)

Exactly. The big change is that HT has driven the adoption of subwoofers for the deepest bass, so everything else can be handled by a medium size speaker.

If you have M80s and a big honkin' sub (or two) you are going to have the same kind of SPLs as Voice of the Theaters plus at least an extra octave of deep bass AND scarily accurate response. The only change is that the bottom couple of octaves have been pulled out into a specialized (and still BIG) subwoofer.

The horn-loaded speakers were great for efficiency but the horns tended to emphasize some frequencies over others... I never even heard anyone succeed in EQ'ing VOT's to get the same kind of flat response as a conventional speaker.

You might want to PM Dennis (Tharkun on this board) and talk to him about loud. He runs a 7.1 system with 5 M80s and 2 EP600s and seems to be able to run at literally dangerous SPLs with totally clean sound.

I normally run at 85-90 dB when I'm playing "loud"... I know Dennis runs way over 100 dB and I imagine 110dB+ is more like it when the guests have gone home. A few people here have checked out the system and have pronounced it utterly clean at ear-bleeding levels.

Oops - I should have mentioned I have an SVS PC+20-39.

OK, so you know what's going on then. Cabinets and drivers have gotten a bit smaller but more rigid and give better frequency response and less distortion. Efficiency is down but big-ass power amps are the norm (525W continuous in your sub) and make up for the lower efficiency to give the same SPLs you used to see with VOTTs.

No joke, you might end up needing 2 of the SVS PC+ to keep up with M80s in a large room. I have M60s and the same 20-39PC+ (real nice, isn't it ?) and in my current room that combination will play WAY louder than I want.

Of course the other option is to get another pair of VOTTs... Altec put them back into production recently, $4,300 US each :

http://www.alteclansing.com/legacy/specs.asp

Note that the A7 is a few dB more efficient than the M80 but the M80 can handle twice the power (and apparently is very conservatively rated) so the result is about the same SPL in practice although you do need a bigger amp for the M80s.

Man, those are some humongous speakers. You could literally line your living room walls with m60s for $8600.

BR,
Wow! You have those things in your livingroom?
Geeezzz, aren't those the speakers that The Dead used about 300 of to make their "Wall of Sound" system back in '76 or '77?
Man, your WFA Factor must be off the charts!
TjB

>>Man, those are some humongous speakers

They're not that much bigger than an M80 duct-taped to an EP600

I can see it now :

Tharkun vs. Beethoven Rocks. In this corner, finished in a dull but rugged grey coat, the champion for over 50 years, Voice of the Theater. In the other corner, resplendent in Boston Cherry and Oak, backed by 2700 watts of Halo amplification, the tag team of Axiom M80 and EP600. Ladies avert your eyes. Gentlement place your bets.

Hearing protection must be worn. Eye protection recommended. No children or animals allowed. All beverages must be in plastic containers, no glass allowed due to the possibility of exploding containers. Waiver must be signed before admittance.

If you want big, room filling sound before you get to blistering SPL, you need to go with a larger speaker as Bridgman suggests.

Wow, the 15" driver looks positively tiny in that enclosure.

One thing I should mention lest I give the wrong impression. An M80 alone should be able to play in the same space as a VOTT if the tone settings are left flat... where the big drivers shine IIRC is when you start cranking the bass boost up a bit. The big drivers can handle bass boost without hitting their excursion limits, while the smaller woofers in modern speakers will start to complain. This is just hypothesis -- I have not had a chance to actually HEAR an M80 against a "classic" larger speaker -- but I think it's a pretty safe bet.

If you want boosted bass at high volumes that's where the big sub starts to shine, in addition to its primary role of playing lower notes than a conventional speaker can handle.

BR, if you decide to try M80s and do a comparison against the VOTTs I imagine a lot of people here would be interested in coming over and watching. You might even get Ian out for something like that

Thanks all of you for weighing in. This whole speaker search has been a world of education for me.

I don't have unlimited power, so I suspect my SPL isn't exactly up to competition level (Outlaw 950/7100 combo).

But I do indeed have those in my smallish living room (they're the Santiago model, slightly smaller than the A7s of the same era).

The new A7s are outta my budget by a good margin!

In the meantime - when the m80s arrive in a week or two, and the dust settles, I'll post my unscientific comparison.

Let's mention that Dennis is driving those M80s with 400 WPC Parasond Halo amps (right?), and does listen upwards of 100 dB. In a rather large room. He found the Halos to be necessary with those dB levels in his room, considering that he also runs 5 M80s with 2 QS8s. It's really something to hear...

BR-are you getting a large sub to go with those 80s? If you're not... I'd consider it very strongly. You may be disappointed by the 80s alone, as far as bass is concerned.

He mentioned he has an SVS PC+20-39

Loud is pretty subjective to most people, but to me, my system plays very loudly and I certainly don't have a tenth the system that Tharkon has. My setup is a H/K 3480 (120 wpc), with m60ti's. I don't even have a sub and it cleanly plays louder than I can stand in my medium sized living room that's pretty open to other parts of the house. I can't imagine anyone not being impressed with how loud my current system is, let alone m80's with a big honking sub and 200+ watts of power like you're talking about. In fact, the first night that I really cranked it (while the family was out of the house) it was so loud that even with the windows closed, my wife said she heard the stereo playing from inside her car (and she had the radio on and the windows up) when she pulled in the driveway. Hey, I just wanted to make sure the new speakers could handle it! Oh and the sound was amazingly clean to my ears even at that volume.

As several have mentioned, I'm running five M80s, two QS8s, and two EP600s. The Halos are capable of 400 watts at 4 ohms, so all speakers have at least the 400 watts available, and have been told the Halos are capable of more than the rated 400. I do run the system at what most consider loud, usually the level is at 100 db with peaks at 105 -110 bd. I have maxed out the amps a few times by mistake, and did not do a SPL level, but the sound still remained clear.

From my expieraince with the Outlaw 950/770 you will have no problem running as many as five M80s and two QS8s with the volume level set at -15 on the 950, which in my enviroment produced a 90 - 95 db level. How ever, I had problems when I started to run above the -15 level for more than 20 minutes, those levels caused the 770 into a thermal protector level, and the imboard amp(s) would shut down, and would take 20 to 30 minutes to reset.

In my opinion and expierance with the M80s, you should not need speakers larger than them, just give the M80s the power, and you should have the sound level you desire, They do produce a lot of base, but in my opinion a sub(s) is still needed. I have found with the twin 600s and the BFD, I now have a higher db listneing area with the Halos running at a lower volume, still to soon to tell, but I may not be running the system at the 0 volume level on the processor from now on. lol

I only WISH I had the 770 - I have the 7100, 165Wper at 4ohms. On the other hand, I'm only running the front pair this way - for HT, I listen at more - ahem - "normal" levels. If I find the power lacking (or worse, overheating in some way or shutting down) I'll probably spring for two of the 200W/300W mono-blocks Outlaw has.

"Loud" is certainly subjective - and the M80s may not be the only way to get there. But - they seem to be a winner in so many ways, I have to give them a shot. I still can't shake the sensation - when I'm out "shopping" - that I need something BIG.

I too run the M80s with a Rotel RB 1080 300 watt @ 4 ohm.Believe me you wont think you need "big" once you get to hear them.BTW these speakers are not what you would call small.

Heh heh...yeah, "big" is relative too. When I think "big" I pretty much am thinking K-Horns, or similar. BIG. If it's smaller than my CD rack (HxW), I'm gonna view it as "small." Anyway, y'all have done a fine job of making me believe this will all work out for the best, and relieving my mind of what is probably a phobia based in myth - big is better.

Just for grins, I just pulled out my RS meter and cranked the 80’s up. At 20 feet away from them, they hit 115 db and still had more to go, and that was playing satellite music which comes through my system at a substantially lower sound level than my CD player does. There was absolutely no sign of clipping or derogation of sound quality. In fact, they seam to sound better the louder they play. I’m sure this is some kind of information transfer from the ear to the brain thing, but my brain sure likes them loud.
I typically have them cranked up around 100 db or more for several hours when I’m working in basement (finishing the basement for a HT and other rooms). In other words, don’t let them little drivers fool you into thinking they don’t play loud. They do, and they sound great. I used to have some old Pioneer speakers with 12” woofers (don’t recall the model, something like Zero 6 ???). These 80’s play louder and clearer without any comparison.
I’m only running around 100 watts at 8 ohm (no idea what the 4 ohm wattage is on the 7200). I can’t imagine how wonderful they sound on Denis’s Halo’s.

Mike, whenever you are saying satellite are you referring to XM or Sirius(sp?)? And if so, what is the method of transport to the reciever/amp?

I have Dish Net. When I just tried this, I happened to be playing the adult alternative rock station. not Sirius, but one of what dish net calls their "CD" stations. It's kinda screwy the way I have it routed because the optical port doesn't work on the PVR 508 and I don’t have HD or digital in my area. So, I run stereo analog from the 508 into the HK's video 3 inputs. I can then select video 3 on the HK and play whatever channel the 508 happens to be on through the HK’s second zone to the 80’s. Make sense?

Oh yea, I see...cool. The sound quality is good?

well, it’s not nearly as good as a CD, but yes, the SQ is good enough for what I use it for,….background music when I’m puttering or throw a party. And there are no commercials, plus I get to "preview" new songs. But then I have to run upstairs, turn the TV on, select the satellite input and take a note of who it is and get on Amazon. hahaha.....
I don't just sit and listen much, but when I'm in one of those "just enjoy the tunes" kind of moods, I pop in a CD, mix a cocktail and zone out for a while.

LOL, Mike..sounds like fun! I wouldn't mind being at one of your parties, I'm thinking Alaska? Whoa, that's a long way from here.

BTW, my son went up to Orlando and rode the RMX450 at the MX track...'how was it?' 'Dad this thing is a monster' says this is the fastest dirt bike he has ridden, and he has ridden a ton of 'em.

I'm ready for a new thumper Mike, how about yourself?

HAHA!! You’re killing me!! It’s only money I reckon. lol...

I'll probably buy one after I ride one. That's my MO. But right now, I'm seriously considering buying that new Mustang (the 06 Shelby GT 500), or possibly the 06 Z06 Vette with the new 7.0 ltr (427) 500 hp big block. I have to get the car while I'm still single. A new bike will be much easier to "sneak into the garage".

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A new bike will be much easier to "sneak into the garage".

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Uh huh, I used to think so as well!

Mustang GT500, 7.0 Vette...MX Thumper, whoa we're not even speaking of the same garage now, are we Mike?

A thought on what is loud. . .

Loud, being a subjective thing, seems to happen when a speaker begins to distort. You suddenly feel like you need to turn the volume down, you cringe away and say, "dude can't you hear that? It's too loud. Turn it down some." (for some reason there are people that are oblivious to the distortion level of a system and think that it is cool because it is "loud".)

When I got my new set up including axioms all around minus sub, I kept feeling like, "man this isn't THAT loud". That is until I did a couple of things.

1. Tried singing along with the song in my living room (20X16 with vaulted ceiling), and it was as if I was waiting for the echo of my voice to come back across the grand canyon . . .(if you've ever been there and tried this you know what I mean, it ain't gonna happen). . .in other words, I could not even hear my own voice! And I have a really loud voice.

2. I broke out the SPL meter. Yup, its loud!

3. I made the mistake of seeing how loud it was outside the house. . . ooops that was a mistake. Now I just feel guilty playing my music even half this loud. My poor, poor neighbors.

Good thing I only play it loud for a little while then get up and leave the house and lock the door behind me. Small bursts of loud seem to be the way to go. No police at the door yet. Least not while I've been there. Ha ha

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that a level of 100db on a nice system with plenty of power and of course a nice pair of axioms, sounds way, way, way less "loud" than 100db on an underpowered or weak speakered system. But it is still the same level. Our ears just like it clean and sweet. So be careful out there all you axiom listeners. Don't damage those ears thinking, "Hey this is not THAT loud". Cause it more than likely is already too loud for our sensitive little ears.

Short bursts. . short bursts

Great point sssutherland, I was thinking of posting something along the same lines, but you articulated the point much better than I would have.

As loud as I've played my system I'm not too worried about the neighbors. We *do* live in a subdivision, but all the lots are at least one acre in size, so the nearest house is at least 150 feet away. In our old sub, the houses were literally like 8 feet apart. Distance is your friend in this regard. Of course, now that it's getting to be summer time and the windows are open, I'll have to be more careful. I knew winter was good for something!

I've seen some badly designed subdivisions with short distances between homes where adjacent houses had floorplans that were mirror images of each other, resulting in windows that line up exactly with your neighbor's.

New M80s should be here tomorrow. My neighbor is about 12 feet from my living room window.

I'll be sure to point out to her that it's a GOOD kinda loud...heh heh...

Douglas Adams, author of "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" said that in one scene from his original radio series of the same name, where they wanted to convey the sense of extreme volume in music without being so loud that you couldn't hear the dialogue, they played the music at high volumes in a different room behind a closed door (i.e. introduced distortion). They then amplified this resulting sound coming through the door/walls, and it sounded loud without being loud.

Unbelievable luck...

My M80s arrived today. One of them looks like it was removed from the box (on the way here) and tossed off the top of the CN tower for luck. It's in about 3000 pieces.

Axiom - I'm pleased to report - has another on the way already. But I can tell ya - ONE sounds pretty good : )

Well that really sucks.If ya like one M80 then with the two together you should really be pleased.Axiom does have some exellent CS.

Man, I'm sorry to hear it Beethoven....my 80s arrived today in great shape and they sound extremely awesome. Much better than I would have ever thought!

Good luck on recieving the other speaker, it will be worth the wait!

Wow, I've never heard of one really broken up like that. Usually just a corner gets dinged in at the most. Sorry to hear that but I think you'll really enjoy them when you get two...

Two...

One fresh out of the box and one which has been played for a few days... two.

Two speakers which could be used to experiment with the "break-in hypothesis" (namely that we should stop talking about break-in)...

Two...

Hmm.

Yeah, so you expect the guy to play it for a few days without listening to it? That's cruel!

Why don't we just get him to test audible cable differences instead and let him off the hook with his new toy(s)?

I can tell you my new Axiom cable sounds fabulous hooked up to either speaker right now ; )

You're right about the "break-in" theory. I don't know what a typical "break-in" involves, timewise, but it'll certainly have a few hours on it by the time The Other Half arrives.

At the moment - I'm running one M80 on the Right, and one Altec VOTT on the left, a nice mix of furniture. It gives the visual impression that I'm listening to a lobster...one giant claw...

So far - totally unscientific - the Altec is holding its own SPL-wise, but it DOES sound "horny" now, dangit. There's probably no turning back at this point!

Really - what amount of time do the Break-In-O-Philes recommend?

Footnote - yep, it was well beyond a dinged corner. I am not kidding when I tell you, I opened one flap of the box and saw the crossover. It was lying next to one woofer. The bottom of the cabinet is totally MIA.

Having already dealt with SVS, Outlaw (twice) and AV123 in the past few months without a hitch, I was surprised, but now consider myself fortunate with the others!

I had a VP-100 delivered with two crushed corners, and they had it replaced within 4 days. So no biggie for me, full points to Axiom CS, but I wonder if it wouldn't be more cost effective for them just to pack more effectively. The VP-100 packing styrofoam gave only 1 inch of cushioning at the corners, so one single drop and the corner's gone. I got a rice cooker for about $150 -- it's a nice rice cooker -- about the same size and weight, and it was double boxed by the reseller, so the rice cooker box was unblemished. I guess they have done some math on % returns and so forth, because double boxing would add a buck or two to real shipping costs on every order. (At my urging they did double box the replacement, and so my VP-100 box is in perfect condition!)

>>Yeah, so you expect the guy to play it for a few days without listening to it? That's cruel !!

No, Mr. Bond, I expect him to listen.

The idea is that when the replacement shows up he will already have some hours on the first M80, so that it would then become possible to switch between a "broke-in" speaker and a "not-broke-in" speaker and see if there is any difference.

You have to test fast though, sounds like after a few hours they will both be "broke-in" and he'll have to buy a third M80 just like Dennis (Tharkun) did. At least Dennis found a use for his third M80

When I received my VP100 there was a hole in the side of the box. At first I was worried that the speaker was damaged however once it was removed and inspected I breathed a sigh of relief. I was surprised that the VP100 was not double boxed like my M60's.

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You're right about the "break-in" theory. I don't know what a typical "break-in" involves, timewise, but it'll certainly have a few hours on it by the time The Other Half arrives.

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'Breaking In'? As in trying to either replace or glue together broken items that fell from the shelves and nailing pictures to the walls?

hmm, sounds like HomeLand Security (or whatever agency) was looking for something inside the speaker.

Makes sense... Bin Laden is tall and skinny... M80s are tall and skinny... he could breathe quietly through the vortex port...

The kids are watching Shrek 2 right now (HONESTLY-THEY ARE)or I really wouldn't have thought of this:

He could be breathing in thru the port on the top rear of an M50, and, uh, breathing out thru the front port.

In my house, loud means that my wife comes out from the back bedroom, after being woken up, giving me the "WTF?" look...

around here, "loud" means the temporary truce in the neighborhood "Sub Wars" has been broken!!

Rich.

"Loud" means that the dogs move to the end of the couch furthest from the speakers.

"Very Loud" means that the dogs leave the room and go upstairs.

"Extremely Loud" means that my next door neighbor comes over to see what new equipment I have.

"Too Loud" means that the neighbor across the street comes over and complains about the music... when all the windows were closed so all they heard was the bass.

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In my house, loud means that my wife comes out from the back bedroom, after being woken up, giving me the "WTF?" look...

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LMAO! Whenever I hear the doors to the den slam shut I know the dbs are right where I like them!

I know that look too .To me I never play it to loud.

Loud is when The Bitch comes by to visit the neighbors and scream at her kids and play her goddamn sound system in her badly parked SUV. Loud is when the neighbor feels the need to test his goddamn sound system in his SUV in the driveway.

Loud is when I know that my upstairs neighbor has left her apartment.

Now we're getting into the spirit of things.

So, any takers on the break-in? How long is good enough? 20 hours? 40?? (Not necessarily buying it myself, but will to try it for the sake of science!)

Uh-oh, now you have done it. The "break in" question. Complete myth or MarkSJohnson's way of acquiring new speakers?

Depending on who you talk to it's either the brain breaking in and adjusting to a new sound, or the drivers actually changing. Most of the guys here will say.....

Heh heh, yeah, I'm keenly aware of the raging controversy!

I have a golden opportunity here, though, one speaker playing day and night, the other not yet arrived...but I want to make sure I gave it "enough" time to make it a fair comparison. (In my room. With my receiver. For one model. Of Axiom. Using my music. With my ears. You can see where this is leading, right?)

Got it, I see where it's going!
(now don't tell anyone I said so, but ya gotta be quick in your listening-when I plunked down my M50s where my M3s had been, it took between 20 and 25 minutes for the obvious "harshness" to go completely away: Not quite "Right" at 20 min, to "Wow, that's better!" at 25)(or something like that)

The most important thing is that your test be completely blind, and double blind would be better. If you have even the slightest idea which speaker is which, your own biases (whatever they may be) can, and will, enter into the equation. Without this condition being met, your test will mean little, and prove nothing.

How's that saying go: "If you can see a speaker, you can't hear it"

I agree. I don't have a fancy rotating speaker base - even near each other, the change in direction might give it away.
Other than that, though, I'll have 2nd blind person operate the A/B switch.

Must be tough evaluating TVs double blind, huh?

Gonna be difficult to come up with a catchy phrase for that one!

took my ears...er...speakers...er ears....no wait, speakers...f*** I dunno which, but something broke in, and it took it about a week.

I'm laughing like crazy at your comment-and I don't really know why!!
(Gimme at least a week to think about it!)
(OK, but at my age, I'll probably need TWO weeks)

Just thought I would help Randy.

I wondered how long it would take for someone to figure out what the heck I was doing Kinda silly, but I'm getting sick of the Stereo Forum being taken over by rediculous questions that aren't related to the topic.

oh well, I'm heading home for the day.

See ya later from home.

Asta La Vista Baaaaaaby