Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Bought my FIRST DualDisc!

I read and panicked when they came out with yet another disc format (the DualDisc), since I just bought a universal player that plays DVD-A and SACD, so I HAD to try it - although I knew it should play on any DVD player...okay okay...I was just looking for an excuse to try it

Of course I played it safe and bought another Diana Krall (Girl in the Other Room), I know how she's "supposed" to sound...

I like it...wait...I LOVE it! I don't know how the album sounds in the other hi-res formats, but she sounds pretty darn good on DualDisc!

Has anyone else tried DualDiscs?

Am I wrong or isn't this just kind of DVD-A's version of a hybrid SACD? But you have to flip the disc? DVD on one side, CD on the other?

I still don't understand why SACD isn't taking off. A hybrid disc (which most of the newer releases are) will play on ANY CD or DVD player. If you're lucky enough to own a uni-player or cd/sacd player then you also get the added bonus of a 5.1 mix.

Spiff,

I sure don't know the answer, but I think you're right. I just had to try it...

I read some players have a problem in that it is too thick..that's why i wanted to try it... thank goodness it works on my player

I just got one too.

One side is a DVD-V(DD5.1), the other CD. No hi-rez content on the one I got.

You can read more about DuelDisc here:
http://www.dueldisc.com

Not to be confused with Dual Layer DVD's

I recently purchased Nine Inch Nails "The Downward Spiral" on DualDisc. In this case, the DVD side does contain high resolution mixes. However, on my Denon 3910, the CD side skips on the last few tracks.

If DualDisc provides high resolution content...I like the format. However, if the DVD side is used to provide a few videos and interviews instead of high-rez mixes, I am not interested in it.

I bought AC/DCs Back in Black dual disc the other day, haven't watched the dvd side yet, but the music sounds...really great!

FWIW, I just got Rob Thomas' DualDisc, and my 2900 is having problems playing the CD side. I have an Avril Lavigne DualDisc that has no problems.

Apparently, DualDisc has problems with a fair amount of players.
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=18008347

I picked up Kind of Blue on Dual Disc, and the CD side had no trouble playing on my 2900.
But I didn't really like the 5.1 Dolby Digital processing on the flip side.
Just found and ordered a true SACD of the same from Tower. Looking forward to hearing how that one sounds.

I just exchanged the Rob Thomas' DualDisc for another one in hopes that it was defective.....and guess what....the new one plays fine! Maybe they are having teething problems in production.

Nevermind....posted too soon. Same problem, just further into the disc.

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I picked up Kind of Blue on Dual Disc

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Has that album gone multi-diamond yet? Seems everyone I know that remotely likes jazz owns it.

Bren R.

Bren this is a must have. Do you have the cd? It is a really nice. Like seabear, I also would like to hear it on sacd. Got to get myself a universal player first...

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Do you have the cd?

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No, bro's got it on everything from reel-to-reel to CD I think... I'm not a jazz fan.

Bren R.

I think that I have seen it credited with being the # 1 selling Jazz album of all time.
And IMO, justifyably so.
It is one of those rare gems that is both completly accessable to non jazz fans, and deep and complex enough to provide years and years of repeated listenings.
I've probably owned about 15 different copies through the years. This syndrome no doubt contributes to it's continued high sales!:)
I am dying for the SACD version to arrive, but I just got an email from Tower saying that my order still has not shipped, 5 days after ordering, even though everything was listed as "in stock".
I also have the SACD version of In a Silent Way coming, as well as the two Bill Evans Village Vanguard sets coming in SACD.
The Japanese are huge Jazz fans, and just about all of Miles' stuff is available in Japan in SACD, but the price here for the imports is a prohibitive $50-$75 per disc.
I'm still thinking about kicking for the SACD of Bitches Brew though. THAT should be a monster in SACD.

"If DualDisc provides high resolution content...I like the format. However, if the DVD side is used to provide a few videos and interviews instead of high-rez mixes, I am not interested in it."

This is what dismayed me when I first saw the display of them in Tower. And I think your response is going to be pretty typical.
There is no consistency from one Dual Disc to another.
Some have video on the flip side, some have DD 5.1 versions of the album, and some have a combination of both.
I think this is just going to muddy the waters for the casual buyer, not knowing what they are really getting (unless of course they read the fine print, and we all know how many people bother to do that!)
and I also think it is going to steal sales from SACD and DVD-A, giving those two formats another hurdle to overcome.
And then you add in the issue that some here are having with the discs not playing properly, and I really worry that all of these problems will just bleed together in the minds of the average consumer, and spell doom for all of the new formats.

Seabear:
I tried to get into Miles many years ago, with some other free-form jazz artists such as Keith Jarrett and it really wasn't working for me. Now, twenty years later I'd like to give it another try.

When you do get your "Kind of Blue" SACD, do you mind reporting on the sound and mix? It seems like you're very familiar with the material and I'd appreciate your opinion as to whether that disc would be a good first...errrr...second foray into the genre!

From my understanding, the DualDisc (non CD) side on many of these is basically a DVD-A in 5.1, correct? I got the downward spiral NIN dualdisc and that seems to be the case. In addition to the 5.1 recording, there is a stereo mix and a couple of videos as well.

Call me crazy but how is this an improvement over a hybrid SACD? In fact with the hybrid discs you don't even need to flip them.

This dual disc thing has me scratching my head.

I'm guessing because for the people that do want the videos and other content, that can be provided as well.

Personally, I'd be fine with SACD.

It's a nice little marketing scheme that's probably going to backfire as soon as people can't play the discs. But yes, I think the idea is video content, as opposed to DVD-A/CD.

spiff...dualdisc gives you video content as well, and you do not need a SACD or DVD-A player to use the DVD side.

I've got a few DVD-A discs that have video content and it's a pain in the butt. I just want to hear the dang music, if there's a 5.1 mix that's even better.

I think one of the things killing SACD/DVD-A is the fact that you need SIX cables to get the dang thing to work. That's STUPID. Great...no one can steal the music, but NO ONE IS BUYING IT EITHER YOU IDIOTS!

Sorry...it drives me crazy that something as cool as SACD/DVD-A isn't catching on because the music industry is run by idiots. Doesn't it make more sense to sell 200,000 units of SACD's and have 10,000 copies made and distributed then to sell only 10,000 units and have none copied? Do they really have their heads driven that far up their backsides?

I think it's not catching on because people don't get it. It's not an improvment they can hear on their current boombox or shelf system type equipment, and there's nothing cheap and/or portable available for it. Think about it-CDs took off when the portable stuff got cheap enough for people to buy. Plus their competitor was tape--pretty obvious difference there. Same with DVD. To get into SACD/DVD-A is a pretty big investment for someone who just wants to listen to music (ie, someone not like us). Hell, it's a pretty big investment if you already have 2 disc players and WAF, like me!

Yea they dont get it because the industry hasnt really marketed it.
The only commercial I've seen that came close to marketing it is an Acura commercial that mentions DVD-A.

There's nothing to get. Put the disc in and press play. If you only have a cd player there's no difference, if you have a uni or sacd player you get 5.1 sound. The problem lies in setting it up. I know what I'm doing, and I find it a pain in the butt. I can imagine most people just see six cables and say forget it. You don't need six cables for a DVD movie, and it can have up to 7.1 audio channels.

grrrrrrr....

Or, better, most people see $25 for something they won't be able to take advantage of. The 6 cables certainly hurt their case, though.

I don't think I've paid over $18 for any SACD or DVD-A I own. Most of the hybrid SACD's are the same price as a regular CD.

Oh. Oops.

I totally agree with Spiff. I know the reasons why SACD hasn't taken off but it just doesn't make sense to me either. I will NOT be buying a dual disc. I will continue to buy SACD's that I can find that I like until the medium goes the way of the dodo bird (which is coming in about a year as the Blu Laser formats come out). I'll just take care of my SACD player and keep it until I'm an old man and I can have truly "vintage" gear.

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I can have truly "vintage" gear

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sorry, i had to chuckle when i read that.

to think right now, that our SACD players will be "vintage" when we are old men, its just funny. our grandkids will have ipods the size of nickels, and cell phones will be obsolete cause they can just implant receivers and transmitters in our heads. and we can all get together, in someones basement, and pull the crumbling, dusty blanket back from our 'old school' system. and there lies, my trusty 563A. it was a classic!!!

thanks for the laugh player!!

bigjohn

Well, I try

SACD and DVD-A are not taking off because it requires special hardware to play them, and to hear the differences, you need a decent audio setup.

How many people have the capability to play a SACD or DVD-A versus a CD or DVD?

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How many people have the capability to play a SACD or DVD-A versus a CD or DVD?

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i dunno, i can't get the damn things to play on my Victrola!

The biggest selling point of DVD-A and SACD isn't the hi-rez audio...it's the 5.1 mixes.

More and more people have 5 speakers and subwoofer sitting in their living rooms. Seems a waste to only use them for movies. SACD and DVD-A fill that need.

Plus, many people would buy an album they already had again just to hear it in 5.1 proper (vs. a 5-channel stereo or DPLIIx mode).

Well, I would, at least.

No question. The difference between a properly mixed 5.1 disc and a 2-channel disc run through DPLII or even DTS:Neo6 is night and day.

Yeah...but you can get the 5.1 mixes on DVD-Videos....and again....no special equipment.

but aren't most DVD-videos concert and not studio material?

A lot of the the DTS mixes are studio. But I think you are right, most are concert mixes.

Still though, it doesn't require an investment is new equipment.

Hi Res music isn't taking off for a couple of reasons already mentioned, supid record companies, special equipment, but I think the biggest reason is that most people don't care. Those of us on this board are NOT the typical demographic. WE care about sound quality, we have the equipment to produce high sound quality. The intire music industry is moving in the opposite diretion, to poorer sound quality. MP3's. The average joe blow thinks the sound quality of MP#'s is just fine, they don't even realize it's worse than standard CD, they have never heard of redbook or SACD or DVD-A. Even if hi res was marketed better it wouldn't make much difference. People want to download music in MP# or WMA onto their iPod's, that level of sound quality if perfectly acceptable to 90% of the music buying public. I've had many conversations with co-workers trying to convince them that MP3's are not as good as a CD. They think because it's digital that it's an exact copy. Many of those who do understand there is data compression can't even hear the difference. How are we supposed to convince them that they need something that is better than CD quality? They don't have the hardware to hear the difference, and most of them don't really care.

You know, it makes me laugh when I hear radio stations saying, "Now broadcasting in high-definition digital sound."

Um, yeah, thanks. . .

I agree--we are the minority demographic. The convenience and "coolness" of ipods and mp3 players far outweighs sound quality. You are right, though, I recall many befuddled looks when I try to explain why I don't have an mp3 player because of quality. "You can hear it, right? So what's the problem?"

Also, for some weird reason, I'm the type of listener who likes to listen to albums from start to finish. I don't know why. Random playback doesn't do much for me. Yeah, I know--I'm wierd. What can I say?

"That's STUPID. Great...no one can steal the music, but NO ONE IS BUYING IT EITHER YOU IDIOTS!"

Spiff,
That, in a nutshell, is the greatest comment I have seen regarding SACD / DVD-A.
I love the formats, but I fear that it is just going to be killed by the idiots that are trying to sell it.
What a shame.

"When you do get your "Kind of Blue" SACD, do you mind reporting on the sound and mix? It seems like you're very familiar with the material and I'd appreciate your opinion as to whether that disc would be a good first...errrr...second foray into the genre!"

Well, I discovered that Tower will not ship an order if you have a "pre-release" item on it. I had the new Live X DVD on the order, but it is not coming out until May 10, so they were holding the entire order.
All should be here on Mon. or Tues.

And yes, I'll report back on the Kind of Blue.
And a further yes, I think that Kind of Blue IS a great intro into Jazz. This is one of the things which has driven it to "Multi Diamond" status.
The other Miles album that I always recommend as a "first jazz" album, especially if you are coming at it from the Rock side of things, is "A Tribute to Jack Johnson".
That is a Rock album, first and foremost, that just happened to be put out by one of the greatest (electric) jazz bands of all time.

How frustrating for SACD fans is this?

Deep Discount CD has a separate section for Dual Discs, but not mention of SACD anywhere on their site! (or DVD-A for that matter) If you want to find SACD's you have to search them out.

Why do they promote one and not the other? I went to Tower Records this weekend and they had a big stand up display of dual disc right in front of the door as you walked in. SACD's? All mixed in with the rest of the cd's. You have to know exactly what disc you want and whether or not it's even available on SACD if you hope to find one.

If dual discs sound as good as SACD's (my primary concern being the 5.1 mixes) then great. But why didn't SACD receive this kind of attention when it debuted?

(I guess I know the answer to that already though...SACD is a pain in the butt.)

I keep telling you....because it requires special equipment.

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I guess I know the answer to that already though...SACD is a pain in the butt.

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And nobody likes a sore ass.

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I keep telling you....because it requires special equipment.

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I give you that with SACD, but DVD-A doesn't. We could have been hearing 5.1 channel mixes of music for the past decade!

""When you do get your "Kind of Blue" SACD, do you mind reporting on the sound and mix?"

OK, my package got here last night, and the SACD of Kind of Blue is indeed terrific.
Only listened in multi-channel, but there is much better separation of the various players than on the Redbook version, the mix is tilted towards the front soundstage, with just some ambience, and supporting sounds coming from the surrounds, and everyone is firmply planted across the front soundstage. Cannonball always to the right, 'Trane always to the left, drums and Miles frmly planted in the center, Piano to the lower left. What I really like about this one, that I think was missing from the other various editions I have had is a good sense of the room that it was recorded in, which was a pretty large room for a studio, compared to what was the norn for that era. Bob Beldin did the multi-channel remastering, and I think he does a great job in general, and has done some great work with Miles' recordings in the past.
I'll have to do some A/B-ing with my other copies, but so far I can say that I much prefer it to the 5.1 mix on the Dual Disc. That seemed a bit bloated and blousy, and not as firmly planted as this one seems.
And, as I have found with my other SACDs, multi-channel or not, I find that the depth and thickness of everything to be wonderful.
You can hear 'Trane's reeds vibrating during quiet passages, and sounds that I used to think were the springs vibrating on the bottom of the snare are now easily recognized as the light sweeping of brushes on cymbals. The cymbals just seem to shimmer forever. That first big cymbal hit, at the beginning of So What just leaps out at you.
All in all, very well done, and very much worth the extra effort to track down.
If you are a Jazz or Miles fan, I would say that this one is a must have.
And if you are not, then this one just might be that final nudge needed to get into Miles and Jazz.
I'll report back on In a Silent Way, and the two Bill Evans I picked up later.

"they had a big stand up display of dual disc right in front of the door as you walked in."

Yeah, that one got me pretty angry too.
(and yeah, I think I know the answer as well.)

And no, to my ear, with the limited litstening I have done so far, I do not think that the DD 5.1 mixes are close to what SACD or DVD-A offer.
I'm betting that some of our more science and tech oriented guys here can provide a discourse of sampling rates and the like, but I doubt that you can squeeze in as much info on a disc that is also carrying Video content and "special features" as you can on one that is only providing music.

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I give you that with SACD, but DVD-A doesn't. We could have been hearing 5.1 channel mixes of music for the past decade!

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Yeah it does. How many of your friends can play the hi-res mix on a DVD-A disc? And I don't mean the DD5.1 or DTS mix.

OK,
I've just gotten done with A/B-ing the DD5.1 and SACD versions of Kind of Blue, and I am shocked.
The DD5.1 version on the Dual Disc is nothing short of a disaster compared to the SACD version.
Insane levels of background noise, it actually sounded WORSE than Tape versions I have had! How is this possible???
Nothing in the surround channels. (Or at least nothing in the 10 minutes that I could bear to have it on!)
Cutoffs in notes and cymbals, NOTHING even close to what is achieved on the SACD. Heck, it is WORSE than the latest remastered Redbook version.
I stood there and checked and double checked all of my settings and parameters for the player and the reciever, because I could not believe what I was hearing, and all was as it should be.
I was simply stunned by how bad the DD5.1 was.
I will not presume to comment on any other Dual Disc out there, as this is the only one that I have heard, but I will caution anyone that is considering buying this version of this album to stay away from THIS Dual Disc. No, that is not strong enough. I BEG You not to buy this Mess!
Not only is it NOT comparable to what is available on SACD, it is a huge step backwards from the latest Redbook CD versions available.
Wow.

I and most other people don't really care so much about the "high rez" versions. We want well mastered and mixed 5.1 music. That can be had on a DVD-A and played back on any dvd player, no?

I was afraid of that.

Anybody else out there done any A/B comparisons of Dual Discs and SACD or even regular cd's?

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I and most other people don't really care so much about the "high rez" versions. We want well mastered and mixed 5.1 music. That can be had on a DVD-A and played back on any dvd player, no?

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Then it is not really a DVD-A disc you are refering too. DVD-A is specific to the hi-rez track. DD5.1 and DTS are not specific to the DVD-A spec....that is just plain 'ole DVD-Video....that any DVD player can handle. DVD-A hi-res has to be a DVD-A compatible player.

That is why DVD-A and SACD are compared to each other...they are both hi-res. SACD/DVD-A are not compared to DD5.1 or DTS.

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Anybody else out there done any A/B comparisons of Dual Discs and SACD or even regular cd's?

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The Rob Thomas dualdisc that I have problems with has a DVD-A track on the DVD side....sounds great!

The CD side I can not play in my 2900, but one of my drives in my PC handles it fine, so I made a copy. The copy plays fine in my 2900, and sound great too.

By the Way...
The two Bill Evans' discs, Sunday at the Village Vanguard and Waltz for Debbie, are NOT multi-channel SACDs. They are simply 2 channel stereo SACDs. They both sound fantastic.
Not as big a difference from the Redbook CDs as the Miles is though.
(But, you can hear someone sitting in the rear left corner of the room who keeps hitting his glass with his ring, and I do not remember hearing that on the Redbook version. I just want to slap him!)
The In a Silent Way SACD is the same sort of revelation as the Kind of Blue SACD.
Mixed MUCH more aggressivly in the surrounds, but that would fit considering the material.
BUT!!!
Neither of the Miles discs are hybrid discs (as far as I can tell from reading the jackets.) They will NOT play in NON SACD players.

And I have to agree with Curtis on the DVD-A vs DD5.1 thing. It is a whole different animal, and does not stand side by side.
Sure, the IDEA is the same, but the excecution is completly different.
I do not know enough about the Science of DVD-A compared to DD5.1, but based on what I just listened to on my system, I do not know that DD5.1 is capable of achieving what I hear from DVD-A / SACD.
Maybe it is, and Sony just decided to settle for a lousy job with this release.
But I cannot imagine why they would choose to do so.
Especially with an album of this stature, and already widespread distribution.

"The Rob Thomas dualdisc that I have problems with has a DVD-A track on the DVD side....sounds great! "

Curtis,
Does it have anything else on that side of the disc, or is it simply a DVD-A version of the album?
I was just wondering if they can fit other content besides the DVD-A.

In the end, I think the wildly varying content on the "B" sides of Dual Discs are going to do nothing but add more shovels to the work of burying all of the new audio formats out there.
Just more throwing S#%T against the wall to see what sticks, and the buying public just keeps ducking, not knowing what is coming next.
Idiots.

I think it has DVD-Video and a DD5.1 track, but since I have the 2900 set to default to DVD-A if it exists, that is what I see....I have not tried anythingelse.

If the CD side and DVD side of the dualdiscs worked all the time.....I would buy them, but right now it is a crap shoot.

I just bought a "universal" player last weekend, so I'm still tweaking and tuning, but my initials thoughts are...

When playing a DVD-A or DualDisc through "6 Ch Input", they sound amazing...crystal clear. Then I turn off "6 Ch Input" (which then I assume the signal is DD 5.1, coming through the digital Toslink), it sounds like complete crap. My guess it's because DD 5.1 is compressed.

I liked that fact that the 2 DualDiscs I purchased were only a couple of bucks more expensive than the CD only version. I did by Metallica's "Black Album" on DVD-A, but it cost me over $30 CDN!!

"My guess it's because DD 5.1 is compressed"
That would be my guess as well.
And, as to the prices of the two, I'm betting that the Dual Discs are being subsidised right now by the record companies, and that is why they are cheaper than SACD/DVD-A.

OK....so I got another DualDisc today eventhough I said I wouldn't...but it was the only way the disc could be had, and the salesperson said I could return it if I had problems. When I asked if they had a lot of DualDisc returns, he said yes, and that they were going to be "re-worked".

Anyways, the disc I got was "Ben Folds Songs for Silverman". Great disc and both sides play fine in my 2900, but one of the drives in my PC has a problem with the CD side.

I just picked up the "Sessions from 54th St." DVD by Ben Folds, and it is terrific. Have you checked that out?
Tom

I have been a closet Ben Folds fan....just never got any discs.

I have not checked out Sessions on 54th St......but I will now.