Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Center channel quandary

Hello all. A little background before I get to my question. I have been following the boards for quite a while. Thanks to littleb (Bruce), I had the opportunity to audition his Axiom's and am now hooked. I placed my order for some M60's and M2's about 3 weeks ago, (FO), which will be part of a 7.1 setup. Below is a picture of the HT layout I am planning.



Now to my question. As you can see by the layout I am undecided about what to use as the center channel speaker. My intial plan was to use the VP150, but because of a support structure (labled as wall in layout) I will not be able to use a horizontal speaker and still be centered in the screen. My question is two part.

1. Does anyone have any experience using a M22 or M60 for the center channel? I know Tharkun uses an M80, how does it sound for movies. Is the dialog clear? Does the front sound stage blend?

2. Does anyone have any suggestions or comments on this situation? Would using another M60 be better than an M22?

CM, hello again. As I've often stated, in my view a vertical center should be in general(I've never heard the VP150)preferred to a horizontally configured center and will provide wider and smoother horizontal dispersion. Since you'll be using a front projector, your situation is ideal for the use of three M60s across the front if you have the space and budget for it.

Given the space and money, I'd go with an M60. I didn't hear Dennis's setup for movies, but it was extraordinarily impressive with music, and I didn't hear any problems whatsoever with blending.

Me, I've got a VP100, and I don't really hear any problems with blending with my M50s, so maybe I'm just not a very critical listener.

Looks like a fantastic setup, btw. Welcome!

Since you have the room, and if the additional cost is not an issue, I would recommend using the M60, having the fronts and center matched is ideal in my opinion and expieriance. Other than SACDs, all of my music is played in 7.1, and the 80 works great as the center, and for movies, I would not consider anything else. Give it a try, if you are not happy, its not a big expense to return it and try another approach.

Tomorrow evening we are having a Star Wars Trilogy party, running all in one evening. There will be 6 to 10 friends over that have not heard the system, so this will be a good audutioning for the movie side of the system, I'll report back with the opinions and what comments if any about the center 80.

Thanks for the replies and reassurance. The M60 is my first choice, just hoping that the plan is sound. The system is being built in painstakingly slow (can you spell funds) stages, but that is half the fun. As JohnK can attest, I made my first post about a year ago and have been working my way up to purchasing my first components after a LOT of research.

Littleb (Bruce) gave me the nudge to purchase the Axioms when I additioned his, actually the speakers themselves gave me a shove. I do not consider myself an audiophile, but I could not believe the sound the M22's, VP100, and QS8's produced, simply amazing. I was grinning ear to ear when I left the audition, Thanks again Bruce for being a generous host and opening your home to me.

Tharkun - I would appreciate hearing what you and your guest's impressions will be. I am simply amazed at the system you have assembled. Should be an "energetic" experience with the twins supporting the lower end. Do you have seat belts for your guests ? I am very familiar with the Star Wars saga, so your impressions will be anticipated.

As far as the Home Theater progress goes, I will keep everyone posted, pics too, as it progresses over the next year or so.

Your welcome. Thanks again for the beer. I hope you like your new speakers. If all this M60 talk persists, I'll have to upgrade. Father's Day is in June, isn't it.

Another vote for the M60. The main advantage of horizontal centers is that they are, well, horizontal, so you can put them on top of a TV. If you can put the center behind the screen then a third M60 is definitely the way to go.

m60=yes

I know you said "NOTE: Not to Scale," but I'm a little concerned about the one black line you have designated as a wall; the one right next to the center channel. Unless you can get the front of whatever speaker you use as a center speaker out into the room past the edge of the wall, it seems to me that it will be blocking a large part of the left side of your room, and causing reflections to the right side. The other wall may cause a similar problem with the left front M60. If that part of the drawing is inaccurate, and the walls will NOT be blocking anything, then NEVER MIND!

>>Should be an "energetic" experience with the twins supporting the lower end. Do you have seat belts for your guests ?

No, but I believe there was some discussion about putting up a "caution, hearing damage may occur, ear protection is mandatory" sign

Totally unrelated thought about your HT layout -- the couch you drew seems a bit far back relative to speakers and screen. Thought about suggesting you move it forward a bit, then realized maybe the best thing would be to build a small riser (10-12") for the couch then you could put a couple of extra chairs in front of the couch giving you a choice of seating positions.

Looks like it's going to be a great room...

Hey Bridgman,
His room is about the same size as the room I’m building. I had thought that there would not be enough distance behind the seating position to run a directional speaker. So I was going to use four QS8’s (2 sur and 2 sur bks). What do you think?

I'm using a M60 as a center channel and think it sounds great. In my previous setting, I was using a VP150 because my room wouldn't allow for a vertical center. I did notice a change for the better when I switched. If you have the space and the money, I highly recommend 3 M60s for your main/center speakers.

What's the suggestion if a pair of 60s are going to used for the rears and 80s for the mains with 8s on the sides in 7.1. Would a 60 match with the front 80s or would one need to go with another 80 as the center?

ummmm......an 80.

Also a bunch of amps with really good thermal qualities.

In reply to:

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Also a bunch of amps with really good thermal qualities.

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Actually Ken I was thinking about adding another 5 channel amp and using the existing 2 channel amp for the front pair of 80s and using the H/K 635 as the processor or even the possibility of using the 635 for everything except the mains. Rick and I were discussing the possibilities last night.

The wife already wants to kick me and 80s out of her main area so *she* suggested that we make an addition to the familiy room! Actually this has been discussed previously, so construction should start in the next couple of months or so hopefully.

Now why would I think Dennis *would* suggest having another 80 as the center? !

Didn't mean to hijack the thread guys.

For the original poster: it sounds like you have certainly done your homework, but the size of your room combined with the diffuse effects a single pair of QS8s provide seem to only require a 5.1 set-up, IMO.
Unless there is a reason for the 7.1?

I would guess that chilleymack is like me and just desires to have 7.1.

"Unless there is a reason for the 7.1?"

I think the Hillary principal applies to AV Gear as well as it does to mountains;
Because It Is There?
TjB

Is that why I am listening to my 60's (which I love) and wondering if I would like 80's more?

>>I had thought that there would not be enough distance behind the seating position to run a directional speaker. So I was going to use four QS8’s (2 sur and 2 sur bks). What do you think?

I don't have much experience with 7.1 myself but my understanding is that QS rears are the way to go if you don't have much distance from listening position to back wall.

The other common suggestion is "stick with 5.1" but I'm slowly starting to understand why 7.1 is attractive. You really lose some of the wacky spacial effects with 5.1 if you put your speakers in the right place

I heard a friends system a week or so ago with 4 QS8s but both pairs were mounted on the side wall rather than rears on the back wall. Never did find out why, will ask again tomorrow...

>>Is that why I am listening to my 60's (which I love) and wondering if I would like 80's more?

The 60s and 80s are supposed to sound very similar but the 80s have more ability to sound good at high volumes. I think the rationale for 80s across the front rather than a 60 center was that the center channel carries as much or more volume than the mains sometimes so either a third 80 is required or only 60s were needed for mains in the first place...

Since I tend to listen at lower volumes 65-80, the 60's and 150 suit me very well. My mains are at least 12 foot apart because of WAF (placement), and my 150 bridges that distance easily. I can run everybody out of the house if I bring up the volume.

Hello CM,

I'm a bit concerned about the "acoustically transparent screen" that you show on your drawing. While I have not auditioned such projection screens intended for home theater that claim to be acoustically transparent, there may well be some affect on the frequency response and dispersion characteristics of speakers placed behind them. I certainly wouldn't take the word of the screen manufacturer.

I've been involved in double-blind tests for years that use a special acoustically transparent cloth screen (not for projection purposes) that is postitioned in front of the speakers under test, so it is possible to have a fabric with clean acoustic transmission. The grille material used on Axiom speakers is one such material.

You could always do a test by putting one M60 behind the projection screen and the other in front to see if you can detect any reduction of high frequencies or muddying of the imaging.

The wall you''ve indicated on your drawing may also introduce some coloration to the left and center M60s.

Regards,

Any update on your impressions of the Star Wars Trilogy party?

Just received my golden e-mail today , the M60's and M2's should be here around Wednesday. Would be happy to bring them over so you can hear them for yourself. Gotta help you scratch that upgradeitis bug .

Jack, valid point thanks. A little further explanation is in order. My home is a 4-level split home and the black lines labled "wall" are actually the 2x4 framing that support stairs going to the upper level. So in the diagram you have a set of stairs that go from the basement level, where the HT is being built, up one level (the stairs labled in the diagram), then they wrap around and go up to the next level (the black lines labled wall support these steps).

The wall the Screen is on will be finished. The side of the stairs next to the left front speaker will only be finished on the stairwell side with insulation between studs. I'm hoping this will help reduce, probably not eliminate, any reflections from the LF speaker.

The center channel will be next to the other stair support and left unfinished, therefore there shouldn't be any reflections of consequence.

I know I'm bending the recommendations of Alan and others about the effects of placing the speakers in cabinets, but it is the best comprimise I could think of (WAF factor). Any other suggestions would be welcome, besides getting rid of the wife .

bridgman, The seating area will be about 12ft from a 103" diagonal screen, which gives me a viewing distance of 1.6x the screen width of 90". This should be enough to prevent me from seeing any screen door effect from the LCD projector. This room is also more a family room than a dedicated Home Theater room, so I didn't plan on using multiple rows of seating. The room will also have a fireplace, between the double french doors and the door by the stairs.

BigWill, Ah, when is enough ever enough . I think you are correct that 5.1 would be plenty, but I don't want the upgrade bug bitting me later. Like Seabear says, gotta have more Cowbell .

Alan, Thanks for your reply. I have looked at various "accoustically transparent" screens and noted there lack of audio fidelity in addition to possible moire effects. Have you heard of the Screen Research Clearpix fabrics. According to this http://teamsync.cebiz.net/Content/Files/Download.aspx/ClearPixFabricsData.pdf?FileId=0f024dddd7c84545958c9ba8eeaf4cb7 ( This opens an Adobe file ) the frequency response is quite good without the use of any additional equalization that many perforated screens are subject to. I am hoping that this will allow me to accomplish what I am trying to do. Any feedback is welcome.

CM,

That is unnecessary and probably would be bad. I'm afraid that It would force me to buy something I don't really need. I wouldn't want you to risk damaging your speakers in the commute. My upgraditis is a vicious disease and spreads like wild fire.

Just a little bump on the thread, any additional comments would be welcome.

- Comments on screen material?

- Tharkun, how was the Trilogy experience?

- Comments on the left front and center positioning?

Thanks