Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Bookshelves vs floorstanding

Hello all,

I'm brand new here, and at present I'm not an axiom owner. I am in the market to purchase some speakers and I came upon the Axiom site rather by accident (I hadn't even heard of Axiom until a couple of days ago!)

After spending some time reading the forums I realized that this was a pretty cool community and that Axiom owners absolutely loved their speakers - this has caught my attention more than any reviews ever could.

Anyway, I am at present looking to upgrade the speakers in a 2 channel stereo (I currently have some Paradigm Phantoms - I'm not disappointed by them in any way, but I've got another room I can move those to and I thought I'd go a little more upscale this time round).

Because I've been so happy with the Phantoms I was naturally thinking of going to Paradigm monitors or studios - but seeing all the enthusiam you folks have for Axioms I'm definitely considering them as well.

My question, as alluded to in the subject relates to whether it would be a better choice to pick up a pair of bookshelves + a sub vs a pair of floorstanders. Some audio folks that I respect quite a bit are big proponents of the bookshelf + sub approach and claim that they will usually outperform floorstanders.

On the other hand, a speaker like the M60 looks like it's a great speaker for two channel stereo and the price is staggeringly good - I simply can't believe that it's that cheap! Also this is a fairly big room, though the phantoms have no problem filling it.

anyway, I was just wondering if any of you had any thoughts on this?

Thanks for any thoughts or advice!

Cheers,

Bill

Hi Bill. Welcome! Well, bookshelves with a sub (depending on the sub) should go lower in frequency response than floorstanders, such as the M60s, by themselves. The question is, how deep in the frequency response does the music itself go? There are some who feel that very little music goes much deeper than what the M60s and M80s offer. Unless you already have some, don't forget to factor in the cost of stands for the bookshelves. Stands are superior to placing them on shelves, etc. due to the effect of the shelves on the speaker's sound.

I am a happy M60 owner. But If I could only have the M60s alone, or M22s with a sub, I think I'd go for the M22s and sub. Now if you could afford M60s AND a sub, that's a horse of a different color.

Hi Jack - thanks for the response!

Good point about the stands - it does make the cost of the bookshelves + sub higher than floorstanders, but still, it's not a stratospheric difference.

Anyway, I'm not in a hurry to make my purchase - I still do want to audition a number of speakers and that takes time given my work schedule. Plus I've got to convince the wife regarding the need for an upgrade - that's always lots of fun

Do you use your M60's in a 2 channel stereo setup or is it a multi-channel HT setup?

I'm just wondering how they perform in a 2 channel setup - I will eventually set up a HT, but that's way down the road...

Cheers,

Bill

Hi Bill, welcome.

I love my M60's and typically listen to music in 2 channel. I found that adding a quality sub made an enormous difference for movies, but for the music I listen to, did not make a huge difference in most material. So, I guess I'd respectfully disagree with my friend Jack, depending upon your listening habits. Paired with even a modest amp, the M60's play surprisingly low and really fill a large room easily. I find that I prefer both the sound and aesthetics of floorstanding speakers, but I don't think you can make a bad choice within the Axiom line.

And, you're right about the community here. It's a good place.

I have a multi-channel HT setup. Tom and I really aren't in disagreement, because we're talking about subjective preferences. There are a couple of threads going on around here about this very subject.

Today, I was listening to Steely Dan's Two Against Nature CD. I kept switching from stereo (Mains +sub) to direct (mains only) to Dolby PLII surround. I am so acclimated to having a sub that I much preferred stereo to direct. But, when I switched to PLII, I REALLY liked it the best. Some CDS, in PLII will have too much information in the surrounds, for my liking. But with Two Against Nature, the effect, to me, was to simply expand the soundstage, and improve the imaging. Please remember that this is only my opinion. Many others feel just the opposite, and they are absolutely entitled to do so. When dealing with preferences, others don't have to be wrong for me to be right.

By all means, listen to as many speakers as you reasonably can. Only you know what YOU like, and want to hear. If you're looking to grow slowly into a full HT setup and would like to start with floorstanders, I don't think you'll suffer by starting with only a pair of M60s, or something comparable. In fact, I would recommend doing that. You will NOT find yourself saying "my that sounds weak." But, I think when you move into a sub you'll really appreciate what it can add even to music. What it adds to movies will really please you.

Hello and Welcome. One important factor is room size. I started with M22's and a sub, but felt that something was missing so I upgraded to 60's with the sub and instantly got what I was looking for. So of course I am going to recommend you get the 60's. Enjoy them to their fullest, then buy a sub later and enjoy them even more. Sub will add to movies tremendously and music significantly. I do still at times prefer to listen to music in direct mode with no sub and the 60's fill the room wonderfully. But I love having the option of a bit more hard hitting bass. (Which my HSU sub takes care of quite nicely).

The more I think about it the more I want to urge you to get the 60's. They can truly stand alone and sound incredible.

PS I still have the 22's for surround which I love them for.

Hi Bill
I am using the 60's in a 2 channel setup and I absolutely love them. They replaced a pair of Paradigm Monitor 7's which I had for 6 years. I liked my 7's but I found that they lacked in midrange clarity. I can tell you that the 60's reproduce vocals with unbelievable clarity and detail, bass is tight and accurate too.

Sorry, I've never had a bookshelf + sub setup so I can't comment, but I'm sure others will chime in.

Also, it wouldn't hurt to know your room size
Al

My main interest is stereo music, and this is a decision I had to make as well. When I first started reading into Axiom speakers I immediately decided that I should go with the M22's + a good sub. However, I really didn't like the idea of buying stands (I also hated having to buy an entertainment centre, but that's another story...) so I started thinking about a floorstanding model.

In the end I bought the M60's and held off on the sub for a little while. I almost decided not to get one because of the amount of bass that these speakers produced, but curiosity got the better of me. I've since added a HSU VTF-2 Mk2 and I currently love my 2.1 (sometimes 2.0) life

So, yeah, I too recommend the M60's.

Thanks for the thoughts - and in fact, my living room may be a bit too big for bookshelves and a sub.

I could, of course, start that way and if it's not adequate, keep the bookshelves for surrounds.

I have to say that I'm really encouraged by the positive comments regarding the 60's. They seem priced way too low to be that good

As to subs, I have been leaning towards one from Hsu - they seem to be the price/performance leader in subwoofers and get astonishing reviews.

Cheers,

Bill

Jack, racing through the posts to catch up, I noticed your comment about sometimes too much surround content using DPLII with some CDs. Have you experimented much with the Dimension control? Within limits it can vary the amount of ambience sent to the surrounds and if adjusted all the way to the front it makes the effect very subtle indeed.

Hi Bill;

I had just posted on another thread here on the forum about something exactly like your comment: "Axiom owners absolutely loved their speakers" Yes, it's true!

Last year we had three major hurricanes come thru-all three times we evacuated I took my M3s with us!!!

This year I will have to take my much larger M50s as well as the M3s!!(We moved into a bigger house and the M3s are too small here-they got moved to the back as surround speakers, replaced with near sound-alike M50s up front)

"Speakers-for-Life" just can't be left in harm way!

Welcome Bill,

If you do decide to become an Axiomite, you will be a happy camper. I had never heard of Axiom's until about a year ago when hanging out on AVSforum.com and audioreview.com I spent about 3 months auditioning speakers (Paradigm, B&W, NHT, Klipsch) and receivers (Pioneer Elite, Denon, Yamaha). I was a little worried at first purchasing from the internet, but I soon found it was one of the best purchases I ever could have made. These speakers truely need to cost a lot more then they do, their that good.

Good luck on your decision making!

Randy

m60's vp150 ep350 4-Qs8's
denon 2805
sanyo z2 projector
toshiba dvd
samsung hd receiver

Actually John, I haven't. Next time I experience that feeling, I give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

I'll throw my hat into the ring. I have the M50s and a sub. When I got the 50s (I was upgrading from Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble 1s), I played music for awhile without the sub. Sounded great. Then, after about a week, I threw the sub back in. Sounded even better...

I started with M2s and a sub, but didn't have an A/V receiver so had to run with just the crossovers in the sub (PSB 6i at the time). I was never totally happy with the sound in the crossover region between M2s and sub despite (a) a lot of tweaking and experimenting and (b) the fact that the M2s are about as simple to integrate with a sub as anything on the market because their bass roll-off is so clean and "straight".

The other problem was that the M2s were limited in how loudly they could play. No problem with Jazz & Classical music but they couldn't really handle the dynamics of loud rock. No real distortion, they just sounded "small". Note that this was at quite loud volumes (95dB+) in a medium-large room (13x23). At normal volumes OR in a smaller room the M2s were fantastic.

I bought a pair of M60s as my primary music speakers and that solved all the problems. Playing at high volume was very clear and smooth, and the bass response in the crossover region was perfect.

Just to make things complicated, I *then* picked up an A/V receiver (HK 630) which took over the crossover duties between main and sub, which pretty much eliminated the problems with low frequency response. Now when I A/B M60 vs. M2 with sub the main difference I hear is better dynamics at higher volumes but otherwise M2+sub is really good.

Based on this I would guess that M22 + sub would be a match for M60s, but for a pure music system I would still go with M60s. If you are going to use the same system for HT it's a different story -- you have to buy a sub, it's worth spending $$ on a "big enough, good enough" sub, and after the sub money is spent you aren't going to hear as much difference between bookshelves and floor-standers.

My current HT system (M2, QS8, VP100 and an SVS PC+ sub) sounds mighty fine with music -- I can't say M2+sub is better than the M60s for music but it is getting hard to tell which is best. Again, though, if buying a pure music system and I had the room I would still go with floor-standers myself.

... plus, of course, the fact that short-barrelled handguns are prohibited in Canada and the bookshelf speakers are too small to hold legally-sized handguns... as you can see from my avatar, even the M60 is barely large enough

By the way, Bill;

I noticed on a couple of ocassions you commented on how inexpensive the M60s are, as well as stating you still have some time before purchasing.

May I introduce you to the M50s?

For $200 less you could have a great pair of floor standers that are very nearly the equal to the M60s in many respects, and arguably better in some others; all depends on your listening preferences.(What is "better" for my ears does not necessarily equate to "better sound") The only complaint I've ever heard about the M50 in comparison to the M60 is that the M50 dosen't sound like the M60!

Rumor also has it that if you don't like the M50s, you can send them back with no shipping charges as they are considered an upgrade if you decide to go with the M60s or the M80s.

You could have some fun using the extra time you have available in reviewing the large number of comparisons made in this forum between the M2 M22 M60 and M80 VS. the M3 M40 and M50 versions of the "Axiom Sound"

My M50s are my Speakers for Life, so yes, you could say I'm very fond of them. But of course they're not for everybody!

Happy hunting!!
Rich.

Good point... and if you look up some of Rich's threads he gives some good info on his experience starting with M3s and moving up to M50s when he switched to a larger room.

I can't believe nobody has asked how big your room is yet... that is usually a significant factor. Bigger room => sitting further from the speakers => more sound energy required => more air moved => more drivers or bigger drivers => floorstanding speakers...

EDIT -- my mistake, the room size question has already been asked.

First of all, I've got to say you guys are great! Thanks for all the thoughts and advice!

bridgman, after what you've said I think I will go with floor standers (for my living room, at least). I don't have a surround receiver there, and I really hadn't considered the crossover issue with bookshelves & a sub.

It's also not a room that I plan on adding multi-channel to, we have a separate TV room that I will eventually turn into a home theater. That's a long term project though, but for now 2 channel (or 2.1) music is my priority.

Cheers,

Bill

Rich,

thanks for the reply - and I have to admit that is a good idea. The room in question is pretty big, and it's complicated by the fact that we have quite a open floor plan.

The living room (where the speakers will go) is partially open to the dining room, which in turn is partially open to the kitchen. This is the main reason I was considering the M60s.

But the 50s may actually do just fine - I say that because my humble Paradigm Phantoms do a surprisingly good job of filing the living room with music, and they are fairly small floor standers.

I do also have some bookshelves mounted in the kitchen so that I can have the whole space filled with music (these are a pair of B&W DM600 S3's).

Of course, the kitchen and dining room are not spots where any "critical" listening takes place, it's just nice to have decent sounding music there, especially when preparing food & so on.

I do like the thought of saving about $200.00, especially if the M50's also have the kind of mid-range that Axiom seems to be noted for. I could put the $200.00 towards a sub, or more likely brewing ingredients (yeah, brewing is my #1 hobby)

When I get closer to making a decision, I'll probably contact the Axiom people to see if they would accept a return of the 50s towards the purchase of a pair of M60s.

Thanks again for your help!

Cheers,

Bill

Hi Bill (wgriel)! I am relatively new to Axioms, I got my m60s three weeks or so ago, and I am quite happy. I use them for 100% 2 channel stereo with Rotel RB-1070/ RC-1070 combo and Rotel RCD-1072 cd player. My room is big too (20 to 22) and has opening to the kitchen and a corridor. However, my axioms with my Rotel gear fill it completely. I am not thinking to add a sub for now, since M60s are pretty good and accurate at the lows.

I would also suggest to listen to Axioms yourself, as I did, courtesy of Capt. Pickard, before purchasing them. Check another thread here for availablity in your area.

I was considering Paradigms studio 100 and yes, they may have been a bit better, but for less than half the price, I went with m60s.

Hi thyname,

thanks for the reply - I did have a look to see if there was anyone in my area for an audition, and there is one person who's not too far away but still it's a bit of a jaunt.

I might be able to try to arrange something, but work can get pretty busy for me sometimes so it can be tough.

Interesting that you mention the Paradigm studios - I gather from reading a number of threads here that the Studios are in many ways similar sounding to the Axioms (of course many prefer the Axioms, but some prefer the Studios).

At least it seems as though they are nearer to each other in sound than say, B&Ws or Boston Acoustics for example.

As a last resort, I may audition some studios in place of Axioms: If I really like them, I'll probably go the Axiom route simply because of the big dollar difference. I figure it's not too much of a risk because of the Axiom 30 day money back guarantee.

I'll also include one or two of the Paradigm Monitor line to see how they compare. I've got a lot of listening ahead of me, that's for sure!

Cheers,

Bill

MSRP on Paradigm Studios is USD 2300, plus you have to pay sales taxes. You may be able to bring them down to 2K though. I also like B&W 703s (I believe USD 3K). All these three speakers (including m60s) sounded similar for my ears. The best would be to order Axioms and get Studios or 703s home for audition (if you can find a dealer able to lend you Studios or 703) and listen in your own room with your own equipment. Sounds strange, but these are expensive staff and dealers may be willing to do this, just to get your business.

And yes, I did consider money issue in making my decision. I felt m60s provided best bang for the buck!!

In reply to:

---

Some audio folks that I respect quite a bit are big proponents of the bookshelf + sub approach and claim that they will usually outperform floorstanders.

---

And in most cases I'd agree...until I heard the M60ti's. Most floorstanders I'd heard in the past were always very muddy in the upper/mid-bass range. I just hated that. Pairing a good bookshelf speaker with a good sub gave me clarity throughout the spectrum. And to me that was most important.

Then I heard the M60ti's.

Tight and clean throughout their entire frequency range. On top of that (assuming your room is large enough) the towers gave me a larger soundstage, and a bit more depth in that critical mid-bass area.

I was sold. Love my M60's.

I would also recommend purchasing from the Axiom Factory outlet to save an additional 10%.

Yeah, I've been looking at the Factory Outlet, and that savings is pretty appealing. I suppose it all depends on how impatient I am once I make up my mind!

Cheers,

Bill

yep, depending on what color your considering, the delivery might only be a week or two. many of the popular colors have a bit longer wait time. I think I waited about 3-4 weeks for my mansfield beech beauties....

Randy

A little off topic, but I noticed from your web page that you have a Denon AVR-2805. How do you find that?

The reason I ask is that I'm eventually going to be purchasing a HT reciver, and I currently own a Denon DRA-395 for 2 channel stereo (and I'm happy with it).

Of course, by the time I get around to putting that together, the models could completely change...

Bill

In reply to:

---

A little off topic, but I noticed from your web page that you have a Denon AVR-2805. How do you find that?

---

He goes into his HT room and there it is!

Sorry... someone get the "ouchless" duct tape...

Bren R.

LOL! Yeah, I guess that would work

Bill

Hey Bill,

Follow this link for all of Denon's receivers in Canada.

Also, as many members have told me, the Denon 2805 and 985 are identical except in price. Very awesome HT receiver.

Crutchfield has good info too. Other members like HK, Yamaha, or Pioneer. I don't think you can go wrong with any of those, just get what you like.

Hope that helps

I have the M80’s, and I use a sub. With the sub off, music just seems to feel naked to me. I’ve tried turning it off for a while just to hear the speakers alone. It isn’t long before I turn the sub back on. I don’t have it playing loud or have the X-over set high either, just “enough”. Usually somewhere between 60 and 80.

I think whether you will need one or not just depends on the music you listen to and if you like to “feel” the bass or not. I listen to rock, alternative rock, country, blues, some blue grass and when I feel mello, I listen to contemporary. So, I listen to just about anything. Don’t listen to classical or anything remotely similar to rap and dance, or hip hop or whatever that’s called nowadays.

I think Wid uses a sub with his 80’s as well. So I guess what I’m trying to say is, don’t expect any speaker with small drivers to give you tons of low end bass, they don’t. What they do give you is amazingly tight / accurate bass and mids. A sub compliments them very nicely. Plus, you can get a set of 60’s or 80’s and a quality sub for less than many of the other manufactures. You’ll have the great high’s, mid’s, low’s and then comes in the sub….thump thump all you want with the twist of a knob. Or if you’re like me, just a little ‘tweak’ is all it takes. The best of all worlds.

What sub do you use mdrew? Do you use it with a surround receiver or amp/preamp combo, or with a stereo one? Do you think EP350 is gonna be enough in my room (20 X 22 feet) and with my M60s. I never thought that I would need a sub for my music, but I read this often in the forums, and even the Rotel dealer told me so. I am really confused. My RC-1070 2 channel pre-amp has inputs for a sub though and I know that I can add it to it. Besides, this would be money well spend, since I would be able to use the subwoofer for my future HT system. What do you guys think?

Buying a really good sub is never a bad decision. I'd look at the EP500, Hsu, or SVS models.

Again I say get the best floorstanding that you can afford now. Enjoy them to the fullest. (I recommend 60's over 80's unless you want to really amp them up) Then a month, a year, a couple of years later when you have the dough, get a SWEET sub just like spiffnme recommends. You will appreciate both your speakers and sub more if you buy them like this.

A quality sub adds amazingly to a pair of excellent towers. Not that the towers can't stand alone. . .but the sub does add this sweet bass that you will get addicted to.

By all means buy them separate if it means skimping to buy both now.

I actually do have M60s, I purchased them 3 weeks ago, and most likely will keep them. EP350 seems more affordable, and I was wondering what the difference is with EP500? Apart from the power?

I have the Outlaw LFM-1 sub woofer. The primary reason I bought it was that it’s a 12” down firing sub. I have it and the 80’s in my great room, which is a large open area (kitchen, living, and dining) that’s 32’X28’ with vaulted ceilings. I don’t have many places to put it and the speakers due to furniture, a fireplace, dining area, windows, etc. I had heard that down firing subs are more forgiving when it comes to placement, so I bought it. Plus, it looks really cool too. The dark plexi-glass top is a nice touch. I can use it as an end table if I want. And it’s priced right and has had some excellent reviews. I don’t regret it, the bastard will rattle window screens more than twenty feet away if I crank it up. It plays very tight and deep. Almost as good as the twin VanGogh’s in my truck which are one of the most musical SQ car audio subs on the market right now. I can’t comment on other subs because this is the first home audio sub I’ve owned. I am pretty dam picky though…….For music, don’t listen to all those folks who’ll tell you to buy some monster sub the size of a small rhino, or buy two or three…….you just don’t need it. Look at my room dimensions, and I ain’t bull****in’ you. You can actually feel it twenty feet away. For movies, I don’t have a clue. You might need more. I doubt it, but maybe.

As far as the set up, the 80’s and sub are only used for stereo music. I have them playing off the 7200’s zone two configuration, which is basically the surround back amps. It’s rated at 100 wpc, but probably more like 125 actual power. In this configuration, I have no tone controls and there isn’t an extra sub output, so the sub is being ran line level. The 80’s are downstream of the sub. I have NAD separates on order for this set up, but they haven’t arrived. The 7200 is going to a dedicated HT room, so I needed something else to drive the 80’s.

I looked at the 1070 and don’t recall seeing any sub inputs. You have me a little confused with that one. Do you mean outputs? Regardless of that, I do not think the Rotel separates have a sub out put. I think you are pretty much stuck with running a sub through the line level speaker wires with all separates. AVR’s all have the .1 sub output, but none of the separates that I looked at. But then again, I wasn’t looking at the high dollar ones either…….

The EP500 goes quite a bit deeper in the bass than the EP350. It has a different driver, DSP-based EQ and driver control to keep the frequency response flat, and enough power to handle playing both loud *and* flat.

Thank you guys for all the reviews and advise!!

Sorry, RC-1070 has preouts for a sub and not an input. It is a double, left right RCA output. I guess it can be used as a low level connection to a subwoofer, and I was told one coaxial subwoofer cable is enough, running from either one (right or left) output in my 1070.

I was playing my music again today for 4+ hrs, and my m60 coupled with my Rotel separates really provide great bass!! I don't know what a subwoofer can add more, but I may be wrong. That is what I've learned from this hobby, you're happy until you get to try the new level, and so on... it never ends...

Hey! I also have M80's with the LFM-1 sub, I also have a home brew sub that is pretty damn good. I decided to buy the LFM1 based on the reviews, thinking that it would blow away my DIY sub, but it isn't a big difference I was planning to sell the old sub, but I can't really get much for it, and I like th eway it sounds with both. So what the hell, 2 subs are better than one. Yes, I run them both, usually only for movies though, for music I only have the Outlaw sub on. There is a subtle improvement running 2 subs, its a more even bass response throughout the room. The DIY sub is not quite as tight as the LFM1. But with both of them going during movies the bass shakes the whole house, and the neighbors.

Reading back my post it sounds like I'm not happy with the LFM1. That's not true, I think it's great, I'm very happy with it. It just shows the DIY sub is better than I thought. I never had anything to compare it to before.