Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Amplifiers

I have just finished reading Alan's newsletter article about amplification. My question is. Wouldn't you want to match receiver /amp power to be closer to the high end of speaker power rating (max to max)? Isn't using 120 watts @8 ohm to drive 250 watt @ 8 ohm speakers like using a vw engine in a suburban? Maybe I am too new to this. It seems to me that it would be more efficient to use a 120 watt receiver to power M2i as opposed to M60.

In reply to:

---

Isn't using 120 watts @8 ohm to drive 250 watt @ 8 ohm speakers like using a vw engine in a suburban? Maybe I am too new to this. It seems to me that it would be more efficient to use a 120 watt receiver to power M2i as opposed to M60.

---

I'll use 120 and 240 watts (just to make the mental calculations easier)... say the 120W receiver has to run at 10% of capacity to get a good listening level - the 240W amp would be running at 5% of capacity.

Bren R.

I understand. What capacity does a receiver or amp run to get listening levels? What capacity to generate reference pink noise?

Your running 175 watt speakers with an 80 amp. How many watt produce ambient 65Db? or reference 105Db?

The wattage rating for speakers is a mostly useless term. It's not a recommendation for wattage, but a rough recommendation for maximum wattage. (Even at that, it's somewhat pointless as many more speakers are damaged by an underpowered amp driven into clipping than a more powerful amp that's not clipping).

It's important to remember that at most listening volumes, you're using under ten watts... very often under 1 watt. In reality, there's very little difference in volume capability between a 120 watt amp and a 240 watt amp.

Finally, it's the efficiency or sensitivity of the speaker that matters most. If a speaker is very sensitive, producing for example 96dB SPL with a one watt input, the needed amplifier wattage will be much lower than a less efficient speaker that maybe only produces 86dB SPL with the same 1-watt input.

It's more important, when trying to decide on a suitable amplifier, to look at the speaker sensitivity, room size and how loud you like to listen than to base anything at all on the "wattage rating" of a speaker!

Mark pretty much got 'er there.

The QS8s, for instance, are rated for a "maximum" rating of 400W... will they handle more clean power than that? Of course... but that's a nice conservative estimate. Will they get damaged by being driven by a much smaller but clipping source - probably.

If you want an idea of how much power is needed to push your cones in and out, ask some of the tube-ers around here. Most of them are in the 5W-20W range.

Bren R.

Mark/Bren. OK 10 watts to push my 60's with a Denon 3805. So why have an amp? I'm not trying to be stubborn. You only need amps to listen to really loud music? A 10dB increase in sound requires ten times the power (from Alan's newsletter). Since I don't know how much power I'm really using but the sound is not strained, I don't need to bother?

Ever since I started reading these boards I've learned a lot from members and I thank you for it. I sometimes stay at the computer late at night reading older posts here and other forums (Outlaw, S&V, Audioholics etc). I sit here and hear/feel the rumble of the EP500 while my son watches a DVD. I am beginning to understand what I have been missing all these years. Now I want to understand and buy the proper equipment to make the most of it.

I love my Axioms. But these are relative inexpensive as speakers go. I'm just beginning to wonder what a pair of speakers that cost $10,000 - 15 and much more sound like.

I have a Kenwood KA9100 integrated amp in my garage system (now that I've elevated the modified T Amp to in-hours status). The KA9100 has twin power meters and drives a pair of 87db efficient (not very efficient but great sounding speakers) Dahlquist DQM905s. I have never seen the meter indicate output of greater than 5 watts per channel. I don't play head banging music at deafening levels, but I'll get the jazz and Eric Clapton going pretty good.

I used to have a Kenwood Basic M2A ( 2x220 ) power amp with the meters on it and I would amost always have that thing pushing over a 100 watts.Heck the darn thing would peak in the upper 200 watt range.Maybe I just listen at insane volumes because I couldn't see a little 10 or 20 watt amp in my system.

Sound Level Chart
If this chart is correct then M60 would be loud at 10? and very loud at 250. I am reading this correctly?

I'm a believer that higher current makes a difference in SQ, not necessarily just 'loudness'. I think you'll find that most folks who run high current amps will agree. I wouldn't get all hung up on the loudness debate.

I'm pretty new to all this, so I may be full of it.

In reply to:

---

I'm a believer that higher current makes a difference in SQ

---

You are not alone. I have been on the amps versus watts bandwagon for years............and have taken many lumps for it but I still believe it.

Bren: what is there about clipping that will damage a speaker? There is all sorts of music with all sorts of wild power/ frequency swings.

Just curious.

The Rat.

There are many of you amp people out there.

Since higher amps like your 1080 (200) don't produce that much more loudness (again Alan's Newsletter articles), I guess I won't know the difference until I try it.

Maybe an Outlaw in my future. That 30 day trial may be the only way to tell.

In reply to:

---

what is there about clipping that will damage a speaker?

---

http://www.rane.com/note128.html

Interesting link... well worth reading.

Do we agree with it ?

Let me ask a question like this: would my m60s (rated at 250 watts) peform better with a 200 wpc or 130 wpc? I am not talking about deafening listening levels, just normal.

Also, do you guys think it is necessary to calibrate a 2 channel system with a SPL meter?

In reply to:

---

Let me ask a question like this: would my m60s (rated at 250 watts) peform better with a 200 wpc or 130 wpc? I am not talking about deafening listening levels, just normal.

---

Nope. Be almost the same.

In reply to:

---

Also, do you guys think it is necessary to calibrate a 2 channel system with a SPL meter?

---

If you had a sub yes, 2 front speakers and nothing else, nope.

In reply to:

---

Do we agree with it ?

---

There are some very well respected Engineers referred to in that article. I'm not qualified to agree or disagree with it as I wouldn't have a clue where to start.

In reply to:

---

Bren: what is there about clipping that will damage a speaker? There is all sorts of music with all sorts of wild power/ frequency swings.

---

The easy answer - when a signal is clipped, it's turned into somewhat of a square wave, which increases all the harmonics in the form of distortion (on a S/S amp - it's odd order distortion and sounds like crap... on a tube amp - it's even order distortion and sounds musical, this distortion is what gives the "tube sound") want to see what clipping looks like on an oscilloscope? Get a piece of letter sized paper, I'll wait.

Got it? Good... now draw a camel's humps - say ten of them... a wavy line about 2" high total, half the humps below an imaginary centre line, half above...
---/\/\/\/\/\--- like that only rounded - there's a sine wave - I drew a triangle wave in ASCII there and if it looked like ---|\|\|\|\--- that would be a sawtooth waveform... anyone that played with early digital synths should recognize those. But I digress. Now draw the same thing, only 12" high (but you're not allowed to go off the page - flatten out the peaks. It's starting to look like a square wave (or pulse wave) now.

But why does a pulse/square wave destroy speakers? Honestly, I'm not sure if anyone knows. Yes, there is a lot more "oomph" to them because of all the harmonics... but as the harmonic intervals get further away from the fundamental (original) wave, they get less powerful very quickly.

In short - I personally can't tell you why it happens, just that it does. Alan? Your opinion?

As for music with "swings" in frequency and amplitude - that's really not what we're talking about here. Well, unless you set the volume for the diminished level and the elevated levels push the amp into a clipping state.

Bren R.

In reply to:

---

Do we agree with it?

---

Actually, went through and read that after my last post - didn't want Rane's theory clouding mine. Compression IS a better explanation than the harmonic theory, but I would add one more piece to the puzzle - the fact that pop/rock albums are recorded and mastered with hideous amounts of compression already, so the dynamics between the low amplitude and high amplitude (quiet and loud) portions of the sound are already falsely narrowed (that "wall of sound" *twitch*)... would explain why even with "soft clipping" amps (call a spade a spade - they're soft limiters - there is no "soft clipping" really!) and better THD+n ratings on amps... we can still blow tweeters.

Bren R.

Not really, John; probably the best analysis available online of why tweeters can sometimes be damaged when amplifiers are driven into clipping by very high level low frequency signals is found at the St. Andrews University site . Both the "harmonics" and "compression" hypotheses are analysed and other possible contributing factors are briefly discussed. Apparently a combination of factors may be responsible.

Doug(bug), on your original question, as was said, the power rating of a speaker is nearly meaningless for use in the home; theoretically it would be the maximum power that could be applied continuously without the speaker going up in smoke. Nothing remotely like that happens in listening using about 1 watt most of the time with possible split second peaks of 100 watts or more. Don't be overly concerned with power, voltage and current; we can get all we need(Ohm's Law hasn't been repealed)quite inexpensively these days.

In reply to:

---

Ohm's Law hasn't been repealed

---

Though some audio boutiques are looking to take it to the Supreme Court.

Bren R.

In reply to:

---

probably the best analysis available online of why tweeters can sometimes be damaged when amplifiers are driven into clipping by very high level low frequency signals is found at the St. Andrews University site . Both the "harmonics" and "compression" hypotheses are analysed and other possible contributing factors are briefly discussed. Apparently a combination of factors may be responsible.

---

I have to admit... as soon as the crazy equations come out, I have to force myself to keep reading. There's really not much "new" that I didn't touch on in my two posts. The main theories are a combination of:
-HF creation by clipping of the LF (ie: harmonics)
-Rise in the HF level of the original signal which – although limited by clipping by an amount similar to that which occurs at LF – rises to a high level. (compression - though his tests show that highs don't run off as bad as one would think)
-Leakage of LF power. (that really depends on the crossover type - and I think you'd see some real differences in which manufacturers' tweeters go "sizzle" if this were a major factor, but... bundled with the other reasons - it can only hurt!)
-Non-themal effects due to an increase in the peak displacement or accelerations. (actual physical driver excursion and acceleration aggrevating the other causes - though tweeters now are cooled much better than they used to be, I haven't seen a tweeter give off a little puff of smoke in... 15 years?)

Bren R.

Yeah Bren, I like the words better than the numbers myself; they sometimes revive bad memories of all that calculus in undergrad.

In reply to:

---

Yeah Bren, I like the words better than the numbers myself; they sometimes revive bad memories of all that calculus in undergrad.

---

Math was never my strong point. I majored in Power Mechanics with a double minor in Biology and Computer Science.

I'd rather have it explained as "okay start with your impedance in ohms, now divide by..." and do my "gunzintas" than try to determine what (Vss - {{Rqa}} ^2) is driving at.

Bren R.

<<In response to:

Let me ask a question like this: would my m60s (rated at 250 watts) peform better with a 200 wpc or 130 wpc? I am not talking about deafening listening levels, just normal.>>


This was the question I was trying to ask. And It seems the answer is that in a clean lab environment yes, at home no. Too many variables. So I don't see an Outlaw in my future. So spend the money on 80s.

I wasn’t so much referring to Watts, but current. You can see my evaluation on the Stereo board of what my impressions were when I fired up the Rotels.

In summery, I did notice a difference in overall SQ. Not a slap in the face kind of difference, but definitely an improvement. And that was going from a HK rated at 100 wpc to the Rotel at 200 wpc. I suspect that the HK is closer to 150 wpc though, so the difference in actual wattage was not significant. I attribute most of the gains were related to the pre-amp and not just power, but who knows for certain.

I have also seen numerous posts where folks went with separate high current power amps and noticed SQ improvements. I do not know the workings of tube amps, but they appear to be high in current, but with relatively low wattage. If you can, I’d suggest finding out what your amp’s current is for comparative analysis, and not put as much weight on the wattage.

OK. I'm not disputing that you hear a change in SQ. Measure current. How do I do that? Maybe I can find a loaner amp. Running my 60's, a 200 wpc amp?

Either the spec sheet or a phone call to the tech dept will tell you what current capacity the amps in question have.

When I was looking into all this, I found some interesting trends with different manufactures. Many claim high wattage ratings, but when I started looking at current, I found that there was a pretty big disparity. That’s why Axiom suggests Nad, HK and Dennon when running the M80’s……they all have robust power supplies with plenty of current, at reasonable costs. Other brands like Parasound, Krell, Sunfire, Rotel, Mcintosh, etc have plenty of current as well, but are more expensive than the other three. I’m sure there’s a few dozen other high end amps as well, but all out of my price range, so I didn’t even bother looking at them.

Mdrew,

Your Rotel amp is not 200 watts when driving a 4 ohm load.Rotel rates it at 300 watts @ 4 ohm.More that likely this is a conservative rating.

My experience from VERY informal testing over the years is that a powerful, high quality amp will give a small but noticeable improvement in sound quality. I'm talking about going from a 40-50W inexpensive but decent amp to a >200W great hulking amp.

Note that this is NOT from careful A/B testing and certainly not from blind testing, just my observations from playing around. I *think* the difference was too great to be just "expectation of better sound" but I would have to do more testing than I have time (or the amp) for to be sure.

If I had the money and was building a stereo system I would definitely invest in a good power amp... but only if I was already happy with speakers, room treatments and maybe player.

true, but the comparison still holds as the 100 wpc hk rating i gave earlier was at 8 ohms too.

at any rate, the 80's sure seam to like the rotel. they're getting along very well. i like the combo more and more every time i turn them on. i'm finding new sounds and more enjoyment out of every cd i pop in. i only have 400 or so more to go...

The links were excellent in their description of what is actually going on. As I thought, compression/ clipping/ distortion is not the "real" problem. The short answer is that the manufacturers are playing games, once again, with the power specifications. The speakers (tweeters) simply won't handle the overall specified power over their specified frequency range. For example, a speaker rated at 100 watts, will not take 100 watts, single frequency, at 15,000 Hz. However, it might take 100 watts at 100 Hz.

Many of today's speakers are not single speakers, but, rather, an ensemble of several speakers, of different types, put in a common enclosure. In general, the bigger speakers need more drive power and can handle (tolerate) more total power than the smaller speakers. The bigger speakers are used for the lower frequency range and the smaller ones for the higher frequency range. That's how you get a smooth and uniform audio response from about 60 Hz to about 20,000 Hz out of one speaker ensemble.

What we are finding is that the power rating of the speaker is not that of a single tone or frequecy rating, measured anywhere across the entire frequency spectrum of the speaker. Rather, it is something like a composite, integrated power spectrum over the frequency range of the speaker. That power spectrum has a maximum power rating for every frequency. The articles state that the power rating is much higher for the lower frequencies than the higher frequencies. If you exceed the power rating evelope at any given frequency, you risk damaging (destroying) your speaker.

So, for Bug's question, what to do? I'm afraid, my friend, that there isn't an easy answer. You could find out what the maximum power rating of the tweeters in your speakers are, and then never run your power amplifier past this point. This would insure that tweeter power rating will not be exceeded by compression, clipping, or anything else. I'm just not sure that this is a very practical or realistic solution.

There are also numerous fixes that could be done to your power amplifier, but those tend to be quite technical. And, I'm not sure how consistent power amplifier design is across the various brands.

So much for a good solution!#$%?%$#!

The Rat.

Love this discussion.
The answer is an in home test. My own ears will have to tell me I think because it's all about sound quality .
Now how much can I put on the credit card?

I wanted an excuse to buy a new amp, but after reading so many people say that there isnt going to be a huge increase in volume or quality in going from a good amp to a hugely more powerful amp I decided to stick with my old HK 5 Channel 100W@ 8 Ohm amp. Plays louder than you can listen to for very long, and is clear and detailed. What more do I want? It runs kind of hot, but I never had any problems with it so who cares? Another forum here awhile back convinced me I dont need a new amp and I have saved a couple of thousand dollars thanks to it. I can use that money for the new Big Screen. I wonder if the wifey would see it that way?

Me too, I am trying to find an excuse to spend an extra USD 300 and swap my recently purchased Rotel RB-1070 for RB-1080, 130 wpc vs. 200 wpc. I can still do the swap for no extra cost thanks to my Rotel dealer. I own RC-1070 preamp, RCd-1072 cd player with my Axiom M60s, all for stereo only. To tell you the truth, I have read and heard more in favor of the getting Rb-1080. Let me put it like this: I may not hear a lot of difference, but I am purchasing my peace of mind for $300!! However, I have read many reviews in Club Rotel that Rb-1080 is far more "musical" than 1070, even a Rotel technician over the phone confirmed this.

Another question, I recently saw a Belkin PureAV PF40 console power center, comparable with Monster HTs series. Anybody has any experience with them? They look so cool, and are cheaper than monster or panamax. Again, most likely a power conditioner/surge protector will not improve anything in the sound of my system, but I consider it as a nice insurance policy (for my mind and protection of my equipment).

>>Me too, I am trying to find an excuse to spend an extra USD 300 and swap my recently purchased Rotel RB-1070 for RB-1080, 130 wpc vs. 200 wpc.

I would consider that money well spent. You already have nice speakers etc... so there are probably no better places to spend the $$ (with the possible exception of room treatments).

In reply to:

---

I would consider that money well spent. You already have nice speakers etc... so there are probably no better places to spend the $$ (with the possible exception of room treatments

---

I agree.

Me three.

Mi cuatro!

OK. I ordered the 80's. Now, what amp to use with my Denon?

Rotel 1080

your turn guys.

I'm currently running my 80s for the fronts powered by a Rotel RB 1080 amp via an HK 635 reciever, sounds pretty darn (conservatively speaking!) good...to me.

Well I sure like mine

I'm starting to wish you Rotel guys would just knock it off.

My wallet can't handle the amp envy.



j/k - I'm really happy that you guys found equipment that is so satisfying, and especially that you take the time to share your joy.

I think there's some old Norewegian proverb to the effect that "a shared joy is twice the joy, a shared sorrow is half the sorrow".

In reply to:

---

I'm starting to wish you Rotel guys would just knock it off.

---

OK, well I don't know about the others, but I for one can certainly take a suttle hint Tom.

mdrew, brotherbob, wid.
three dealers. closest is 90 miles, next 120, next 140.
How much should I expect to pay for the 8th wonder of the world?
(just kidding)

I was just joshing, Rick. You should indulge your bliss.

I was just a little alarmed that you seem to be... getting to me. Must... control... unpgrade... urges...

well, he doesn't call himself tomsuttle for nothin' ...

1K for the 1080

Ever heard of or any opinions on this amp. Emotiva
Looks like 7 monoblocks on one chassis.

That's basically what it is, Doug. You can find a LOT of information about it on the av123 Forum in the "electronics" section. I've heard nothing but good things about it, except that it weighs a TON!

One of the cool things about it is that all the amps are modules. Should a problem arise with one of them, only the problem module need be serviced or replaced.

Craigsub, who posts here, there, and everywhere has two of the monsters (see photo on this page), and seems very happy with them.

I had no luck finding a Rotel dealer that would budge one penny off MSRP. MSRP for the 1080 is $999

You might want to call all of them first and see if any has a floor model they’d part with at a discount. You will still get the same five year warrantee, starting the moment it leaves the store.

I bought their last one, which was a floor model two months old with minimal use. They knocked off a whopping $50, but you may have better luck than I.

might as well ponie up and wip out that CC Tom. you know you want to.........haha

Just came home with RB-1080!!! Dealer called and said it was there (had to be special ordered) and went to pick it up. Swaped for no extra cost with my recently purchased Rb-1070. Just hooked it up.... at the first ten minutes I don't notice any difference in quality with 1070, just a kind of "better overall feeling for the sound". Actually I was not expecting any huge difference. Also plays louder and "fuller" even for lower volume level. It is definitely bigger, heavier, and this one has THX logo in front. I will keep you posted!!!

The Emotiva looks very interesting. I emailed AV123 and got info that they are considering letting you buy the blocks as you need them. 2,3,4 etc. Might be a neat way to upgrade. CragSub does praise it int the AV123 forum.

bug: noticed that you post that you have a Denon 3805. That's a pretty good HT reciver and I have been looking at it. Don't you like it or are you just looking to upgrade?

Your comments would be appreciated.

The Rat.

if i was looking for a reciever, that's the one that would be on the top if my list.

Rat,

I love the features of the 3805. I also invested in the Denon mike for auto set-up. And, it drives the 60's with no problem. Right now listening to K Loggins CD. -22.5 on the dial and 80-85 on the meter. Listening in direct mode - awesome range. I bought it refurbed on Ubid for 699 plus shipping. It has great features for video upconversion to component.

I am intrigued by the separatists and want to try an amp to see if there is truly a difference in sound quality. Also want to try bi-amping which gets high marks in several review columns. If there is a difference, I would probably recommend the 2805 with approximately the same features and an amp. But, I getting ahead. I think its worth the freight to try something like this at home.

I have 80's on the way and will be able to try both speakers. (Reminds me I need to get some banana plugs today so I'll have easy switch over for test.)

If I was going to buy another receiver only, it would be Denon 3805. Great features for the price.

Should anyone be interested in the Emotiva, Audioholics has just done a review of the Amplifier.

Emotiva MPS-1 Seven Channel Power Amplifier Review

I was interested until I saw the MSRP.

MSRP is high. That's why I'm waiting to hear about sames chassis with fewer blocks in it.

Also interesting from Audioholics review above.

<<Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) Measurements
Measuring the Signal to Noise ratio of this amplifier proved to be quite challenging due to the lack of proper LPF for limiting the bandwidth to below the switching frequency.

By applying A-weighting response curve, I was able to achieve partially reasonable measurements of 82dBA (A-wt) at 1 watt or about 102dBA at 270wpc.

From Emotiva Engineering Labs:We perform my signal to noise ratio test a little different than you do. We base our measurement strictly on the rms voltage as measured on the AP with a <10Hz to 30Hz bandwidth selected. No other weighting is applied. The amplifier is connecting to a purely resistive load, in this case 4 ohms. We measured a noise floor voltage of 268uV using the balanced output of the AP with a 50 ohm output impedance - generator selected to off to terminate the input to the amplifier. From this starting point we let the AP do all the work. We select the output level from which I want the S/N ratio to be referenced at and call that the 0dB point. Below are some measurements we have taken:

102dB ref 300W
101dB ref 270W
87 dB ref 10W
77dB ref 1W
These numbers should be more consistent with what you are hearing from the amplifier. Also, we believe these numbers represent a best case scenario because we are using the balanced input. The key to this test is the noise floor of the amplifier. This can change significantly if power cables are inducing 60Hz into signal, other equipment could be radiating noise, etc.

In any event, the 77dB @ 1 watt number isn’t flattering to say the least, but given the unique amplifier topology, I suspect the out of band switching noise is producing a non representative number since noise was never an audible issue in real world listening tests. When using the Yamaha RX-V2500 as the preamp for the Emotiva MPS-1, the set-up was dead quiet and sounded as silent as other amps I have measured with significantly lower noise floors. >>

I was looking for watts and dB chart earlier.

Well the MSRP is certainly out of my range, but the reviewer said "my jaw nearly dropped off when I learned of the meager $2k asking price - especially considering the build quality, internal components and potential the product appeared to have." He apparently feels the cost to performance ratio to be outstanding. Again, It's not in my future.

I WILL be receiving it's little brother the Emotiva Ultra-Lite LPA-1 Seven Channel Amplifier sometime this summer. It's too early to tell if it will measure up, but I sure hope so. AND, it's much more reasonably priced.

bug: why do you think that your Denon 3805 is not good enough to go with the M80s?

That amp looks to be in the same price class as the big, 5 channel Rotel.

Rat,

I am happy with 3805. I want to find out if these guys are right about the amp giving better sound quality. I think it worth shipping back an unwanted unit to do a side by side. I'm going to do the same with 60's and 80's.

Yes, it is in the range of the Rotel 5 channel. But again but i'm intrigued by the monoblocks with separate power supplies and the fact that you can add monoblocks as you go. I'm alson considering the Outlaw monoblock.

bug: I would be most interested to see what you post as your findings. I am interested in some new HT gear, but am not sure what to do at this point in time. I'm sure that I will, however, figure it out in due process.

I went to some of the various websites this evening and they all look more or less the same. All the same grand and glorious comments. Maybe some of the folks who read this thread can comment on performance, warranty and customer service. Rotel has a five year warranty which is the longest that I have seen, thus far.

I went to ubid and they did have a Denon 3805 for sale, but it only had a 90 day warranty. Last time I looked there, I thought that it was a year warranty. I'm not exactly sure that I fully understand how they do business. They may be using multiple business models.

Do you actually bid on a unit like on ebay?

Ubid is buy for price listed. No auction. 90 day Denon warranty. This place Dakmart charges more but offers inhouse 1 year warranty NOT Denon.

When I bought mine it was available on just about all Denon authorized sites. Denon list . I just checked and it's not now. But who knows, might change tommorrow.

Mine was 699 on Ubid. I think it is worth the gamble if you intend to use it daily like my son and I. Hopefully it won't break. I have found in my buying habits that if my electronics work for 90 days, then it will probably last.

In reply to:

---

Rotel has a five year warranty which is the longest that I have seen, thus far

---

If warranty is a concern, look no farther then Bryston. They have had the best warranty for years and they back it.

Also, if the Emotiva line works as good as it looks and they hold the price, they will give Outlaw a run for their money and then some. $599.00 for that amp Ajax posted........that is a good deal to say the least. The pre pro is only $699.00. So for $1300.00 and change you get what appears to be some very nice stuff.

Emotiva will be available as a starter unit with 2 blocks for 1099, additional blocks 249.

May take that model out of the running.

bug: I have a question for you. Are you going to use the pre outputs on the 3805 to drive a big amp?

I have decided that my next receiver or seperates MUST have a good selection of video switching options and be software upgradable. By video switching, I mean 2-3 composite inputs and 1 output as well as 2-3 HDMI/ DVI inputs and 1 output.

I have been looking at many websites and I sort of like the 5 channel, 200 watt amps made by Rotel, Outlaw and the Emovia. Comments on the three, both pro and con, would be welcome. However, I am not exactly thrilled with the video switching of the surround processor seperates and am not so sure about the software upgrades. I do need to go back and look at Outlaw and Emovia again.

However, the notion struck me that I could get a good 5 channel amp now (always can add a two channel for 7.1 later on) and get a relatively "cheap" referb receiver that has all the proper switching (as long as it has the preoutputs) until the overall market catches up with whatever video formats and switching become standards.

Any thoughts as to what brands/models have the video switching that I am looking for?

I was looking at the Denon 3805 and it has pre outputs and the composite input/ outputs but no HDMI/ DVI inputs or outputs.

Rat,

That will be the next buy, but don't know how big. 200 wpc at 8, 300 at 4. Those numbers will work well with my new M80ti's.

I'm very pleased with 3805 component switching since I can only connect to my Sony plasma with component. The new 4086 has DVI or HDMI but I'm not sure. Outlaw's new 990 has DVI. The new models for 2005 releasing this spring and summer should have the newer video connections. What you need will depend on you video unit.

I'm leaning towards Outlaws monoblocks because I can start with 2 or 3 and add more later. Emotiva, as indicated in an earlier post, is going to sell the chassis and 2 blocks for apx 1099 and extra blocks for 249. Outlaws 3 block special is 857 with free freight.

I agree that a less expensive receiver like my refurb is a good start in a ever changing market.

You can spend all night reading the forums about products. I spend time at Outlaw's, Av123's, S&V's and other forums. A lot of great stuff.

When I buy, it will be on the internet and will be from an outfit with a return policy. After trying the 60's and moving up to the 80's, I'm really pleased. I would have paid the freight to send the 60's back. It was nice for them to send prepaid labels since I traded up.

The new Denon 4806 will be out this week, I believe. We should start seeing some user reports very soon. It looks quite interesting.

Before I go to an integrated receiver, once again, I think that I will give seperates a long, hard look.

You know the saying. It's obsolete before you get it home.

You jump in there with a 4806. We need a resident expert.

I say that as I sit on the fence about amps

Sending you a PM

I would be interested in hearing user comments on the Denon 4806, but I can't say that its currently high on my shopping list. At $3500, I'm not sure that there aren't much better alternatives. Anyhow, the jury is still out.

I went back to the Outlaw website and took a second and third look at their new 990 pre/ processor and their 5 and 7 channel amps. That 990 really looks nice for the price. It is really loaded with features and it has DVI switching and internet upgrade capability. I currently have no intention of going 7.1 any time soon, so maybe the 5 channel amp would be all that I would need. Only problem is that they currently do not have an amp that "matches" the 990. They do, however talk about one, but who knows when? Of course, with seperates, does it really matter if they match?

If Ajax is lurking, I notice that you also post on the Outlaw board. Anything that you care to add?

They have a 755 amp that is 5 channel 300wpc@4 and a 770 7 channel 300@4.

Try this Outlaw 755 .

You could get the 755 and add 2 monoblocks later to take you to 7.1

I found this review of the 990

Outlaw990

Bernard, I was watching the Aviator. A long, but worthwhile movie. I enjoyed it.

If you check out that thread, you'll find that that is my one and only post on the outlaw forum. I have never heard the 990, so I can't attest to it's build, or sonic, quality. But, it seems to be a feature rich preamp, at a price which, though reasonable, is definitely out of MY price range. I'm not real crazy about it's looks, but that's just me. I'm sure many will like it's appearance.

I posted in that thread on the outlaw forum, and in a similar thread on the av123 forum, because I was surprised that many were comparing the 990 to the soon-to-be-released Emotiva UL preamp. I think they have very different target markets. I don't find the ULs stunningly beautiful either. I like the looks of the Parasounds!

I see the UL and it's amp, as a budget level combo with basic, but not skimpy, features, going for $1300 for the pair, which can open up the world of separates to many who could never afford to go with an Outlaw preamp/amp combo, or, for that matter, any other preamp/amp combo currently available. Does anyone know of a $700 preamp that is worth discussing? (I mean that as a genuine question, NOT a challenge).

I see the 990 as as a feature rich, entry level preamp. I use the term "entry level" based on price alone, and not quality. Many of the preamps we hear so much about seem to cost considerably more. Based on it's features, the 990 appears to be a real bargain. The 990 alone is $1100. With the least expensive Outlaw amp currently available, the price for the pair is $2000. I suspect the new wave of Outlaw amps will be more expensive than the current group, so the price for a pair will be even more expensive.

So, many people are trying to compare a $1300 budget combo, to a feature rich pair that goes for $2000 or more. Apples and pears, to me.

I'm assuming that both preamps are well made, quality, units that sound very good. Obviously if one unit sounds measurably better than the other, all this is moot.

That's funny! Sure is strange that the only post you make over there, I happen to read. Small world, isn't it?

I agree with your analysis of the UL versus the 990. Those two surround processors are in two different leagues. The 990 is so much more feature rich. But, then, again, it is about 50% more expensive. I can't remember the last time that I got MORE than I paid for, but I sure can remember the last time I got LESS than I paid for. LOL!!!

I started looking at newer audio gear because of a potential "lip sync" problem that I may experience with the new HD TVs that I am considering. I am not really sure that there actually is a problem, but there have been reports of some "issues" by some new owners. Anyhow, my current HT receiver does not have the ability of correcting for this "lip sync" nor does it have composite video jacks. It only has one optical input and no optical outputs. It has, however, been a very good and reliable unit. It has 150 watts per channel and can drive my M80s as loud as I want to listen.

I have taken a "hard" look at the Denons, Rotel, Outlook and a few others. I saw the Rotel's at a local dealer and they sure looked nice. But, I think that their surround processors (switching features) are a generation behind what others are currently offering in their "new" units. I still remain undecided. Some of the Denons look nice but the 4806 and 5805 are a little pricey. Not out of the price range, but if I get one of them, I want to make sure that I will be satisfied with it for a long, long time.

I have 2 friends with Outlaw 950s, and although a very nice processor, I was not knocked over by its sound quality.

I have a new Integra DTC 9.4 and an old Sony TA E9000ES which I picked up for $400 new B Stock on ebay (about 25% the cost of the Integra). The Integra has multichannel in for SACD/DVDA, THXII, and all kinds of cool features. For HT and music I like the sound of the Sony better.

I've seen some good prices on used Marantz processors which also sound very good. As Axiomites know so well, quality and price are not necessarily coupled values.

2x6: thanks!

I think that I am going to wait and see what happens with the new HD TV. If there is no "lip sync" problem, then I am going to wait to upgrade until all of this HDMI/DVI formats/ standards is resloved. If there is a "lip sync" problems, then I will have to make a decision fairly soon.

While I do not like making a "snap" decision, if the "lip sync" is a problem, I am leaning toward a referb of some type for a 1-2 year period of time. That should give enough time for the issues to be resolved (at least I hope). Then, hopefully, I can get something that will last a long, long time.

In the meanwhile, I will continue to research what is available.

Additional comments would be welcome.

Rat,

Decided to give amps a try. Ordered 2 outlaw monos for fronts today. More later

Bug, looking forward to hearing your impressions on the new amps.

Me too.

Me three.

LOL!!!

Well, one amp arrived today. I'll set up for the center speaker test. More later....

Did they send all three?

I am going to look at your Denon specs and see how they rate the amplifiers. I seem to recall something about only two of the seven are operated at full power at the same time. I need to go back and read that spec again.

I ordered 2. One came today. One is lost. Hence the center test.

Denon literature says all channels equal power but not 120 watts all channels driven. Outlaw forums members say it tested at 77 watts all channels driven.

OH NO!

It does sound better!

The Outlaw monoblock is driving the center channel. It sounds clearer...cleaner. At low and higher volumes. 65 to 85 SPL. It's too late at night to play louder or I'll wake the wife. Louder tests in the morning.

Does this mean that I'm going to have to order a third monoblock to cover all 3 fronts. Just another $315.00.
Do you think she'll mind? What excuse for not ordering three in the first place?