Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Need help deciding on receiver

ok, i plan to upgrade my current ht setup. right no it consists of the following: Yamaha HTR-5730 receiver, Yamaha DVS-5750 DVD PLayer, Yamaha centre and surrounds, old aura audio mains, as well as a hsu stf-2. i plan to purchase the follwing axiom speakers: M60ti, VP150, QS8, and i will stay with the stf-2
For my first purchase i plan to upgrade my reciever, but i am not sure what to choose. i was looking at the Harmon Kardon AVR-235, but i am concerned that it will not have enought power for the axiom mains i amd getting (50watt per channel @ 8ohms) would bi-wiring help to solve this problem by running the speakers at 4ohms? please note as i am on a limited budget, this system will take 5-6 months to complete, so if you have another receiver in mind to suggest, please try to keep it around $900cdn.. thnx much for any help, and it is greatly apreciated

Darren, like you I was skeptical of a mere 50watts per channel of this receiver until I bought one.(hk230) Don't be afraid to buy one based on the lower power ratings. Plenty of power to make your axioms louder than you can tolerate. Unless your into that sort of thing.

There are a lot of great receivers that are used on this board. Find one that meets your needs/wants and go for it.

ok, thnx much for your help, i think i might go with the avr 235, unless i can find a better deal within the next two months (this month im buying a new tv, then its on to the speakers and receiver )

If you look around you might find one of the earlier HK receivers being cleared out. I bought an HK 630 at a really good price when the x35s were announced; never would have been able to afford one at regular price.

If that deal had not happened along I would have purchased a 230 (that's what I went in to buy) and I expect I would have been very happy with it. I have run my speakers on an HK130 several times with great results.

As others have said, the HK's have a lower power rating but they really deliver that power even with all channels driven. Very few receivers can do that.

We're not necessarily saying that HKs are "better" because of that (although I bought one ), just that HK rates their amps with all channels driven while most other companies rate with 2 channels driven, giving a higher spec.

Darren, welcome. Looking at your setup it certainly doesn't appear that your 5730 is the first thing that needs to be replaced. It's rather basic, but should have adequate power for your new speakers and can be replaced later when your budget permits. Biwiring is essentially meaningless and doesn't increase power in any way or change impedance to 4 ohms. Your first purchase should be the M60s and would be far more meaningful than a receiver change.

I recommend the Harman Kardon.

There was a post with a bunch of bench tests and measurements ovver at audioholics for the Yamaha 2400 - it almost lived up to its wattage rating(very good in these times), but into 4 ohms the damping factor was around what you'd get on some tube amps, and the amp was being taxed horribly. the HKs do not do this, which suggests better amps - so don't worry about the wattage. Harman Kardon, NAD, Rotel, all give out conservative wattage ratings and have good high current amps.

I recommend you look at weight, over wattage. It tells a whole different story. If you find a 100x5 receiver that weighs 22 lbs, vs a 65x5 receiver that weighs 30 lbs, you're much better off with the 30 lbs receiver.

John, I understand what you are saying as far as what Darren is inquiring about. But as far as bi-wiring being "useless" I find a very substancial difference with my 60s bi-wired. On the Sunfire amp, there is a seperate voltage, and current source, on the 2 channel amp. they are obviously both current and voltage, but the voltage (high power) to the lower sections/woofers, and current to the higher mids/tweeter offer the best of both. This is more "vertical" bi-wiring, and there are great audible benefits. Taking it to another degree, some run a high power solid state amp to DRIVE the bass end, and a "warmer" tube amp - or "tube like" amp to run the mids and highs. The vocals are VERY much enhanced. Bi-wiring (can) bring the 60s to a whole different level.

That's bi-amping, if I understand you correctly. Biwiring makes no sense, electrically speaking.

Denon 2105 with nice features, also high current.
Onsale
It's B stock or refurbished but great price. There is a thread or two about refurbs, but I am well pleased.

I think Thasp may be onto something.

Right you are, Ken;
Bi-wiring only makes cents for wire vendors. And for those wishing to adorn their equipment with some more Audio Jewelery to impress their non-audio friends! (Not to mention a few misinformed but desperate individuals who are grasping at expensive straws in order to get that last little bit of perceived audio perfection!)

Darren
Although this doesnt seem to be a very updated list, I think you can get a general idea of actual WPC for different brands of recievers/amps.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/3401/ratevsac.htm

Good Luck

Yes, ken, bi-amping is what I am actully doing. There are 2 sections of the amp, for fronts only designed to produce a "warmer" sounds to the mids'highs. these are the top binding posts on the 60s (and others) there is a notable improvement when wired this way with my particular amp at least. Bi-wired in the sense that there are 2 sets of wires, but bi-amp from 2 different sections of the amp.

No offense meant, but boy, that's a weird amp design if it's specifically altering the frequencies.

wow, thanks for all the help and advice everyone. the only thing im not sure about now is whether to get the m60's or the receiver first. also one more question, i plan to buy the axiom speakers wire along with the speakers and im not sure if the hk receivers accept 1/4" or 3/8" spade connectors, anyone with a hk receiver know which one fits? thanks again

Neither fits on my H/K 525. Bare wire or banana are your only hope in that case.

no offense taked, but how is it weird? You have drivers that are at "different frequencies" as you state. Why would you not drive them accordingly. The design is much revealed by many, and after my listening, I concur. The amp is a sunfire 600x2 2 channel amp. check it out. My ears don't lie..........to me at least - LOL

argh, i'll probably still get the axiom speaker wire but with two single spring bananna plugs for the receiver... and stay with the spade for the speakers

What's the model number ? Jon it looks like you need a set of M80s

I was curious about the Sunfire 600x2 amp, so I found the user manual. This is what it states about the standard "voltage drive" vs. the more tube-like "current drive" (emphasis added):

------
I've included two kinds of left and right outputs:
(1) a standard voltage-source (i.e., near zero impedance) output for all typical applications and:
(2) a higher-impedance current-source output, which many prefer for electrostatic, planar magnetic, or ribbon speakers. Or you can biwire your system with the voltage source driving the woofer(s) and the current source driving the upper part of the system. In many cases this provides by far the best possible in ter face between the amplifier and the speaker system.

Whichever way you decide to hook up the Sunfire power amplifier, it will create a multilayered sound stage that is deep, wide, three-dimensional, and utterly believable. The optional current-source output can coax forth a sensuous, delicately detailed musical voice long associated with low-powered classic tube amplifiers. (The current-source characteristic of vacuum tubes is the dominant factor in the sound stage delivery of classic tube amplifiers.)

[snip]

NOTE: The Current Source output is a Voltage Source modified to yield a Current Source impedance of one ohm. This corresponds approximately to a vaccum tube amplifier output impedance and constitutes the dominant factor in the soundstage delivery of classic vaccum tube power amplifiers.
-----

So the Current Source output utilizes an artificially high output impedance -- most solid state amps are in the 0.0X ohm region -- to mimic the voltage fluctuations tube amps produce when connected to your average speaker. (Naturally, these fluctuations alter a speaker's frequency response, which is the source of "tubey" sound.)

While researching this stuff, I found a detailed article that talks about the role output resistance plays in how an amp sounds. It's an interesting read.

Aaand that's why it's odd. It seems that the goal on this amplifier is to modify the sound, as opposed to amplifying the existing signal without modification. Not that there's anything wrong with that, per se, but it's different than most solid state amps.

If you have the money to get the speakers first, get the speakers first... they will do more for your enjoyment than the receiver and M60s can be driven with pretty much any receiver.

If you buy less than 5 speakers at a time you give up a 5% discount so breaking up the speaker purchase probably isn't a good idea. Leaving out the sub (for example) would cost you 5% of the sub's price but you would still get discount on everything else.

re: the spade lugs, are the measurements "inside" between the fingers ?

Yes, that is verbatium, from the manuel. my only point was, and is, I wired it in 2 different formats. Sometimes your ear will play tricks with your head (this is what I at least have found for me) The initial sound was so impressive in the bi-wired/bi-amped whatever you want to call it.

I took several weeks so I was not in the pre-conceived listening impression. I auditioned this both ways with many "musical" friends. That is people that love good music, play it, live it. I am not one of them, I just know what sounds good, or real good to me. I am however very descriminating, and there is a clear cut - significant smooth detailed difference. If you came by and had a beer, and listened, really listened, you would agree. You can't dismiss it, it's that clear. BTW thank you pmbuko, and a good read on the article. Thanks again.

Yes Peter, that's an informative article, illustrating how an excessively high output impedance on an amplifier(regardless of whether it's tube or solid state)can cause response variations as the impedance of a speaker changes at various frequencies. A real-life illustration of this can be found in the lab test for the SoundStage review of the Song 5 watt amplifiers selling for merely $4,000 a pair. Note especially the response fluctuations when driving a dummy speaker load with varying impedance, the damping factor of about 1.5, and the high distortion. Naturally, the amp has been praised for its "sound quality".

Tube amps can and have been designed which are competitive in performance(i.e. they don't have a "tube sound") with solid state designs, but high output impedance single-ended units can't do it.

In reply to:

---

It seems that the goal on this amplifier is to modify the sound, as opposed to amplifying the existing signal without modification. Not that there's anything wrong with that, per se, but it's different than most solid state amps.

---

Wow, is it 1988 again? "Loudness" buttons and the "EQ hump" that my right index finger still naturally conforms to when I walk up to anything above a 5-band graphic EQ.

Bren R.

Do you need identical amps to bi-amp? Can you use receiver for high end and amp for low end?
I always tell people there is no such thing as a stupid question. (Hope mines not.)

Yes you could, but would need the SAME processor or pre-amp so they are accepting the same signal. You could you could use the receivers pre-outs for example.

Use the speaker connections on the receiver for one set of posts on the speaker. Preouts from same receiver to amp and then speakers connection on amp to other posts. Would it make a difference which drive highs which drives bass?

that is exactly how you would do it, or a seperate pre-amp that both amps would use. In general you would want the more powerful amp driving the lower posts (the woofer or woofers) and the more "refined" amp driving the mids/highs. As an example I used a very powerful crown amp with the 60s. The amp is used to drive (2) big SVS passive subs. The sound on the 60s was quite harsh, I mean I hated it. It's not that it's a bad amp. The amp is great at raw power ie: pushing big drivers - BASS!! but lacked detail in the mids/highs. When I used the crown on the bottom woofers only, and my sunfire to drive the mids/highs It made for great bass, and warm detail. I don't use it that way, I was just experimenting. I use a 600 wpc 2 channel sunfire wired voltage source to lows, current source to mid/highs.

if we can get back to the subjest for a second, call me crazy but im considering going with the m80's, even though this is all going in my small bedroom (im only 17) i want to not have to worry about upgrading in the future no matter how big the room is. also i like the fact that the 80's are 400watt @ 4ohm, vs the 60's 250watt @ 8ohm. imo the 80's would be alot better cause the 4ohm would pull more power than 8ohm from the receiver.. am i correct when i say this? also i dont see the point in getting all 400 watt (vp150, QS8) then having lesser power mains. lest say one day i want to hook it all up to a 400watt /channel amp, then i can do it with the 80's. the real question now to me is, is it worth the extra $500 (cdn)....suggestions? hope i wasnt too confusing lol

Whew, whenever I was 17 I was hoping, at best for something, anything to play my 'new fangled' 8-track casettes with.

I don't think I would have made it to my current age if I would have had a big honkin' amp connected to a set of 80s back then, maybe the 8-track wasn't so bad afterall.

Darren - hopefully JohnK's got a second to set you straight on draw versus resistive loads. Suppertime for me.

Bren R.

ya i guess thats one disadvantage in working full time and having so much spare $$ to spend on speakers....lol bye bye hearing....

Please stop this talk. I feel my wallet creaking open.

I'm 3 times your age and making the same decisions.
Not trying to hijack the thread.
I have 60's today. Tuesday I will have 80's.
I have a Denon 3805 (120wpc@8, 200@4).
I am deciding on amplifier. Denon to be prepro.
Think think others will agree. Spend your money on the best speakers you can afford now. You can upgrade processors and amps as you go.

after reading some more threads, i have decided against the m80's as my room is very small (12x12x8) and i wouldnt be able to place the m80's as far from the wall as recommended with what i read... i know the m60s will be way more than enough for my room, but like i said, i am planning for the future..but i would like it to work fine in the room i have presently also

Darren, No intentional hi-jack here, I pondered the exact same thing for quite awhile. My nature is to similar, get the better item now, so I don't have to look back. It was actully Axiom that told me in compleste candor, that the 60s would have an almost identical sound, but would ultimatly not play quite as loud. By no means does this mean they can total whale in a room. I have a good sized room, 24x23, and they absolutley rock. With the right equipment, anything louder would have your next deceision wondering what the best ear specialist would be. LOL, I would lean to the 60s for your present, and even future needs. "If" the mansion H.T. room comes into play along down the road, there are worse things to ponder.

Darren, the first thing is that you're attaching far too much significance to speaker maximum power ratings. Theoretically they represent a continuous power input which a speaker could handle without being damaged; in home use these things are pretty much meaningless. Speakers such as the M80 and M60 will use about 1 watt at a comfortably loud average listening level and split-second peaks might use up to 100 watts or more, but there's no "matching" of the speaker and amplifier maximum power ratings needed(a thousand watt amp isn't going to endanger the speakers; the extra power would simply be unused and meaningless). There's also no need to think about a lower impedance speaker "pulling" more power from the receiver; if the 4 ohm speaker isn't less sensitive it doesn't use more power.

Your receiver should be fine at this time and the M60s should give you excellent sound in your present room and in their future location.

wow that was really helpful john. so you really think that cheapo yamaha receive would be fine for now? i guess thats good though as i can get all the speakers, then when i have more money saved i can go and get my self a nice new higher model hk or denon receivr..... m60's here i come not til july though, as i first have to replace my 19" with a jvc 32" flatscreen crt

Thanks John, that's the post I wish I'd had time to make.

Bren R.

>>There's also no need to think about a lower impedance speaker "pulling" more power from the receiver; if the 4 ohm speaker isn't less sensitive it doesn't use more power.

One more point which will either fill in the blanks or confuse everything...

For a given volume control setting the 4 ohm speakers actually *will* pull more power from the amp, but as JohnK says as long as the efficiency is the same that just means you won't turn the volume control up quite as high...

But before you get too excited, no you normally can't turn the volume control up as high with 4 ohm speakers as with 8 ohm speakers. If you could you would get twice as much power, in practice you get 20-50% more from a receiver that handles 4 ohms well.... and thermal or overcurrent shutdown on a receiver that doesn't handle 4 ohms well

Another way to think about all this is by using the garden hose analogy. Current would be the amount of water flowing through the hose. Voltage would be the pressure of fluid in the hose. Wattage would be a mathematical sum of the two (power). Resistance would be your thumb (ohms).

Put your thumb over the end of the hose, resistance is high and you get restricted flow (current) but higher pressure (voltage). Wattage remains constant because the voltage dropped, even though current increased. Remove your thumb, resistance drops and flow increases, but voltage drops. Again, wattage stays constant. Now, open the spicket and pressure will increase. By opening the spicket, you just increased flow (current). But if the spicket was already fully open, then the voltage will not recover.

With low impedance speakers, there is very little resistance to current flow, so in order to maintain wattage, voltage must increase by supplying more current. But with the inability to supply adequate current, voltage and wattage will ultimately drop, and stay below the speaker’s design parameters. This is where high current amps shine over amps with low current capacities. Without the capability to maintain a steady supply of electrons (current), voltage drops, hence the drop in wattage. So, in a sense, low impedance speakers do “suck” power from an amp more so than high impedance speakers. This occurs at one watt, or 100 watts. One watt at 4 ohms requires more electrons than one watt at 8 ohms. Can’t remember the formula, but it’s a substantial amount in %.

ok, i think i understand now, thnx.. however i have decided against the m80's as i have read in several other posts that in order to sound right they must be 4' from the wall, and my room is only 12x12 so that is like impossible, im sure ill be fine with the m60's

I think you will be very happy with the 60's.

for your reference, and others who may be reading, the 80's do not need to be away from the wall 4'. 12" is enough, although some folks have them up to 18".

You will be happy. Listening now to Kenny G in pure direct mode. Awesome.

Couple of questions to the board:

I've been to the ubid website and noticed a 4000 series Denon. The U.S. Denon website does not show that one. I went to the Canadian Denon and it is there. Without going through a lot of detail, what are the differences between it and the 3805 and 5305?

Second, I took a couple of pictures and tried to post them. Couldn't get it to work. Son says that I can't just go from my picture file and import it to this thread. Anyone have the magic to post pictures?

The Rat.

You need to have the photos hosted on a website. Many of us here use Photobucket.com. It's free, but there are limitations on image size, disc space, etc.. If you find you need more, you can pay for it. You'll want to keep your photos small anyway so they don't take up too much space here on the forum, and cause those who are using a dial-up connection to wait forever for the doggone thing to load.

Just go to the website, sign up, upload your photos, copy the info in the "Img" box beneath your photo, paste that info into the post form here on the forum, and VIOLA!

Thanks Ajax.

I printed the instructions and I'll give it a try.

Looks like my son was right when he said that I couldn't just import the pictures!

The Rat.

Test.

The rumors on the net says the 4805 will be out late this year. Basically the same features as 3805 with dvi inputs/ouputs. Don't know the wpc. Price estimates 3600-3800.

Thanks bug!

That is a little pricey for just adding some extra video inputs/ outputs, but you just never know.

The issue, as I see it, is what will all the manufacturers settle on? I think that there is still some debate/ uncertainity for the audio/ video streams and switching.

I really would like to wait until all of this settles out before I get a new receiver or seperates.

By the way, did you see that 4000 series Denon on ubid? I think that it is on the second page.

Bernard, the most recent Denon in the 4000 series is/was the 4802, which is being replaced by the 4806, which supposedly will be available next week at a suggested $3,500. Several changes, including the MultEQ equalization also present on the flagship 5805.

John: if you go to the Denon USA website, there is no 4802 advertised for sale. The units go from the 3805 to the 5805 with no 4000 series.

Now, if you go to the Denon Canada website, they have the 3805, 4802, still have the 5803 and the new 5905. I had no idea that there was an existing 4000 series until I saw it on the ubid website a couple of weeks ago.

Makes me wonder if they will sell the new 4000 series in the U.S.

Why is different gear being offered in Canada than the U.S.?

Go Figure?????

Second paragraph of my previous post the 5905 model number should be 5805.

Bernard, the 4802 was sold in the U.S. and appears in the archives section of Denon U.S. If you take a look at the Crutchfield site you'll see their estimated May 27 date.

From Crutchfield site...

Denon AVR-4806 Black Home Theater Receiver New!
130 watts x 7 full-bandwidth rated • THX Ultra2 certified • THX Surround EX, Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES, Dolby Pro Logic IIx and ALPHA 24 processing • HDMI/DVI digital video switching • multi-point Auto Setup and Room EQ Adjust • 3-room/3-source A/V output • component video conversion • learning/multibrand touchscreen electro-luminescent remote - 3499.99

Denon AVR-5805 Black 10 Channel Home Theater Receiver
170 watts x 10 full-bandwidth rated • THX Ultra2 certified • THX Surround EX, Dolby Digital EX, DTS-ES, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, Advanced ALPHA 24, HDCD, and Widescreen 9.1 processing • 32 Burr-Brown 192kHz/24-bit DACs • 4-room/4-source output • HDMI/DVI video switching • Auto Setup and Room EQ Adjust with multi-point calibration
-5999.99

Crutchfield 4806 Link

John and Bug: thanks fellas.

I stand corrected.