Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Question about cables!

Do not worry, it is not about speaker cables! LOL

Okay, I am in the process of permanently installing a newly bought front projector. Still wondering, for various reasons, whether I should ceiling-mount or low-mount the projector. Anyway, since I have to run the video cables from the electronics shelves (which is built in the front wall of the room) to the projector (which will be placed close to the back wall), the cable length will be rather significant. According to the current plan, if I ceiling-mount, the cable length will be approximately 30 feet; if I low-mount, up to 70 feet of cable run will be necessary.

I need to run both component video and S-video cables.

So, my questions for any of you who have a similar experience are: (1) Should I altogether avoid running a video cable for as long as 70 feet? Cutting back from 70 feet to 30 feet will have a significant impact in picture quality? (2) At any rate, for the 30 or 70 feet of cable run, what cable brand/vendor would you recommend?

The only brand I wish to avoid is... K$mber K$ble! LOL

I am going to cross-post this in the AVS forum, but I wanted to first try you guys!


Thanks!

KIMBER! KIMBER! KIMBER! KIMBER all the way. To do 70 feet of Kimber well its only about twice your projector cost. Thats cheap. Your flight and hotel in Tokyo cost about as much. Kimber Hero..thats the model...
I LOVE KIMBER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kidding aside. I also would be interested in knowing since I myself will be doing the same setup. Umm Sushi I was wondering why you were going to run 2 runs. Let your receiver do all the video switching and plug all your DVD, HTPC, SACD, DVD-A and VHS to your receiver and have your monitor out from the receiver send you video signal via component. S-Video has a much inferior video signal. I myself will op to go digital DVI or analog computer connection via a HTPC. Those can definitely hit the highest resolutions. I believe component is the same or quite close.

Approx. resolutions

VHS 300x360
cable TV 460x360 up to 525 lines in US
Laserdisc 560x360
DVD standard around 500 lines
SDTV 640x480p - 704x480p lines (Digital Cable)
DVD Progressive up to 720x480
HDTV 1280 x 720p lines - 1920 x 1080p lines
you might op for a video scaler or go for higher quality signal such as HDTV(up to 1920 x 1080 lines).

All that said you have all those resolution piping into your projector. Your projector will possibly rescale it or not and you get better or worse pictures. HDTV will be compressed to your native Projector resolution. If you pipe your VCR or TV cable or SDTV through your projector your picture maybe not a nice. You will need maybe a video scaler, line doubler to upscale your video signal
to your native 1280 x 720. Even a progressive DVD is not up to par with your projector.

I went for a HTPC setup only because I can natively have my DVD,DIVX, Playstation, pictures from compact flash and cable TV rescaled to the same resolution as the projector I am planning to get. A HTPC can be integrated to a learning remote so no keyboard/mouse is needed. But with a cordless keyboard/mouse you can surf on a 100 inch screen. Or play Johnny Cage 7 feet tall in Mortal Kombat 4 for Sony Playstation. Have WinAMp play my favorite mezmorising Visualization on a 100 inch screen while I listen to Stan Getz or Gilberto.

Saturn

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Kidding aside. I also would be interested in knowing since I myself will be doing the same setup. Umm Sushi I was wondering why you were going to run 2 runs. Let your receiver do all the video switching and plug all your DVD, HTPC, SACD, DVD-A and VHS to your receiver and have your monitor out from the receiver send you video signal via component. S-Video has a much inferior video signal. I myself will op to go digital DVI or analog computer connection via a HTPC. Those can definitely hit the highest resolutions. I believe component is the same or quite close.

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That is still a feature not common to receivers. Denon only has two models that do it. Onkyo/Integra have only two to my knowledge. A lot of the higher end receivers don't do it either. It will depend on his hardware.

Sushi, arstechnica's forum is down at the moment, but I'll look for a thread later on this same subject. About the best I saw was 25 feet for component but I'll try to dig it up for you later.

Hey Semi;

Thats weird my Rotel RSX1065 does the video switching. So does my dads new NAD T752. I thought it was common that you can plug in all your devices to your receiver and have it control which input. Unless I did not get what you mean. But yes none of those receivers do any scaling. I myself have a video scaler. Actually it is a computer component but you do not need a computer. Its a stand alone TV box. Viewsonic has this video processor scaler/ TV tuner. I pipe my signals into it such as VHS, DVD and it rescales from 640x480 up to 1024x768 and pipes it out via RGB computer cable. The picture going into a projector or monitor is great. Even standard TV cable looks nice at 1024x768. This is the cheaper video scaler at $150 CDN. There is a better one that goes up to 1280 and has component inputs. I think this scaler does a good job as real video scalers from $800-$4000 from DVDO Line doubler and Farouja. This video processor is only good for projectors or computer input monitors Plasmas, LCD. I found about this neat device 2 years ago and since then have been passing my cable TV signal through it.

Saturn

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Thats weird my Rotel RSX1065 does the video switching. So does my dads new NAD T752.

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I'm starting to see it in a lot of new hardware, but it's still a relatively new feature in the lower priced markets. Thankfully, this is changing.

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I thought it was common that you can plug in all your devices to your receiver and have it control which input.

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You can, but most won't output anything other than component video out of the component out. Most will upsample composite video to S-Video and the S-Video out can output everything, but upconverting composite and S-Video to component so that it can all be carried through the component out is sadly not very common.

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I myself have a video scaler. Actually it is a computer component but you do not need a computer. Its a stand alone TV box. Viewsonic has this video processor scaler/ TV tuner. I pipe my signals into it such as VHS, DVD and it rescales from 640x480 up to 1024x768 and pipes it out via RGB computer cable. The picture going into a projector or monitor is great. Even standard TV cable looks nice at 1024x768. This is the cheaper video scaler at $150 CDN. There is a better one that goes up to 1280 and has component inputs. I think this scaler does a good job as real video scalers from $800-$4000 from DVDO Line doubler and Farouja. This video processor is only good for projectors or computer input monitors Plasmas, LCD. I found about this neat device 2 years ago and since then have been passing my cable TV signal through it.

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Got a link?

Check out bluejeanscable.com for reasonably-priced high-quality cable. I have a 25'-30' run of DIY component video to my projector and it looks good to me. I don't know about 70'.

Sushi, although this isn't about speaker cables, you can still run into some insanely priced stuff. Cost aside,the lengths you describe don't create any technical problem; the table here may be interest. Looking at various suppliers, it isn't unusual to see lengths up to 100 feet. The Blue Jeans outfit Jason mentioned is one that's relatively reasonable.

Sushi, why don't you drop Joe an e-mail and ask his opinion? He has been running a ceiling mounted projector in his setup for at least 6 to 7 years now.

JohnK,

Wow! The table you cited indeed looks very encouraging...

Of course, everybody knows that Cable TV companies send their 5MHz-bandwidth signal over many miles of coaxial cables. Although the bandwidth is up to 10 times higher in component video, a few hundred feet should be no problem at least in theory.

However, I hear and read so many horror stories about video cables picking up various forms of visible noise/artifacts, which has made me paranoidal...

At any rate, when it comes to cables, I am determined to spend absolutely no more than really needed! LOL

Real 80's man,

That is Joe at Axiom, right? Do you happen to have his email address? You can PM me if you prefer...

Thanks!

Saturn,

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Thats weird my Rotel RSX1065 does the video switching.

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Video switching and S-video/composite-to-component upconversion are two totally different things. Are you sure that the Rotel and NAD can do the upconversion? I visited their web site, but the online catalogs do not say anything about it (since it is an expensive feature involving quite a few additional video chips, if it does they most likely say it does).

As Semi says, only a few higher-end receivers from Denon, Onkyo, and Pioneer will do the upconversion as far as I know. Among the receivers within my budget (less than $1000 street), only the Denon 3803 does it. I understand that many people buy the Denon solely for this feature. However, to complicate the situation further, the AVSforum et al is full of user reports that the 3803's video upconversion is sometimes problematic (loss of sync, etc).

Anyway, since I have a multi-device, macro-capable remote, the convinience gained by the video upconversion within the receiver can easily be simulated by the remote.

With regard to video scaling/deinterlacing, the projector I bought (Yamaha LPX-500) has an excellent onboard scaler based on the Faroudja chips. It is said to be actually better than most separate scalers. So, I decided to feed everything to the projector as is, and let the Faroudja do the job (btw, I have no desire to go into the HTPC right now).

In my earlier post all I mentioned with the receiver portion is just video switching. I have plugged in my vcr(rca), dvd(svideo) and also tried htpc(svideo) to my receiver. Receiver monitor out via svideo. That above is just video switching from rca cables to svideo cables.
I was talking input switching between different resolution.

Upconversion or scaling I did mention was only on my Viewsonic TV Tuner/video processor. From my Receiver I would have a Svideo cable out to that video processor which would then Upconvert my video signal to 1024x768 and view it on my Sony CPG400.

So when Semi and you mentioned upconversion on my Receiver, it definitely cannot do that. In my earlier email I just mentioned video switching within my receiver. And then further on the email upconvertion/scaling with my video processor.

As with Faroudja the stand alone Faroudja Native Rate Series or the DVP5000 video processor is one of the best ones out there. And boy it aint cheap. With respect to Faroudja integrated chips on devices that use DCDi is only as good as the manufacturer that encorporates them into there systems. In your case the the Yammy projector must use it well. In other cases such as the LG Plasma that also use Faroudja DCDi chips the quality is inferior to maybe the Panny or NEC scaling in there own plasmas. ALIS scaling in plasma is supposedly more supperior than the ones that used Faroudja DCDi chips. On the other hand another company that carries a $15,000 DLP projector that use Faroujda chips have supposedly phenominal resolution.

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With respect to Faroudja integrated chips on devices that use DCDi is only as good as the manufacturer that encorporates them into there systems.

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True. According to my research, among the front projector brands, Marantz, NEC and Yamaha did some of the best implementation of the Faroudja chips. In fact, it was one of my major reasons for deciding on the Yamaha. The Faroudja's excellent performance really shows itself when I play back my old LaserDisks. Despite the huge difference in image size, to my eyes the projector actually produces a better image than my 32" Sony tube TV.

Now browsing through the Blue Jeans site...

Okay, I just ordered 75' cables from svideo.com.
The component cable for $90; S-video cable for $47.

Unfortunately, Blue Jeans and most other vendors did not carry long enough pre-made cables.

Thanks!

It's too late now, but I'm pretty sure they'll custom-make any length you want.

Hi sushi,

I guess I'll have to get out my old laserdisc player--I've been using it as a doorstop! And I'll need a high-def projector, of course.

Seriously, I've never seen any tests or comparisons of degradation with very long S-video or component-video cable runs. I recall doing some tests of composite video and there was a slight fall-off of image quality with a 30-ft. cable.

I've been told that there is visible degradation of S-video with runs longer than 20 feet, and I've never seen any data on long component-video runs.

Report your findings. . .

Regards,

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It's too late now, but I'm pretty sure they'll custom-make any length you want.

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Uh-oh... LOL But it is okay, because 75' is about perfect for my current plan, plus the price was right!

Or, do you think I should have gone for a thicker, more expensive coax? What I bought is Mogami's 27 AWG. The specs are here. One problem of thicker video cables for me is their stiffness/inflexibility and esthetics. I need to on-wall install the wire run, using the Cordmate II rails.

Thanks!

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I've been told that there is visible degradation of S-video with runs longer than 20 feet, and I've never seen any data on long component-video runs.

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Alan, you scare me!!!

I will surely report the results with the 75' Mogami, although I will probably be unable to do instantaneous A/B comparisons at this time.

Folks,

I decided to stop fidgeting and wondering, and just ordered the following today:

Axiom VP150 (cherry; factory outlet)
Axiom QS8 (cheery; factory outlet)
Hsu VTF3 subwoofer - sorry Axiom!
Pioneer VSX-45TX receiver

These will complement my Hales System Two floor-standing speakers and the Adcom power amp that will continue to drive the Hales. I will see how well this mixed-brand 5.1 will behave!

I thought I would wait till the installation of the "visual" part of my system is settled, but it turns out that the custom-masking of the Da-Lite screen seems to take fairly long time. So... here I am!

I thank you guys very much for the numerous suggestions and advice so far!

Cheers!

Good luck sushi with the new system you'll love them.
I've got the M60,VP150,QS8 and SVS 2531PC+.
You won't be dissapointed with their sound.
I also have the VSX45TX you will love the MCACC feature to start with but eventually you will cal in expert menu and a SPL.

Have Fun Mizer

Oh, by the way, there were concerns raised in this forum and elsewhere regarding the Pioneer receivers' relative lack of "power reserve." Well, the final kick that cleared my doubt and helped me decide to go for the 45TX is here:

Hifi News (UK) - Comparison of Reveivers

They measured and compared the US$1000-ish receivers from Pioneer (VSX-D2011 = Elite 45TX), Rotel, Sony, Onkyo, Yamaha, and JVC in this article.

Sushi, the link you gave was very interesting. Some, of course, might be misguided enough to think that some of the other items shown in the Parent Directory(e.g. Elisa Bridges)were more interesting than the power output plots of the Pioneer receiver. Certainly nearly 140 watts continuous at 8ohms with 5 channels driven can be considered to be fairly adequate. In fact I'd suspect that if an audiophile attempted to drive all 5 speakers(plus sub)at the continuous level of about 110db PER SPEAKER that this would allow, the result might be a dead audiophile lying in a pile of fallen plaster and shattered glass.

Of course, many of the complaints about the Pioneer related to 4ohm operation, which Hi-Fi News didn't show, but I can't imagine that there would be that much difference. Note however the usual silly subjective comments of their listening panel; apparently you'll have to do without "the widest sense of space or atmosphere", but have courage nevertheless.

Looking at the Sony 333(essentially the DA4ES)graphs, I'd be satisfied with that, too. While brief transients might momentarily require high output in all channels, there wouldn't be a continuous requirement.

Incidentally, 75 feet of your 27ga video cable should be no problem; the attenuation would be just a bit over 1db and should have no effect.

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Of course, many of the complaints about the Pioneer related to 4ohm operation

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Yes, but according to the 45TX threads in the AVSforum, it does seem that Pioneer has (silently) implemented some updates on the over-current protection circuit and/or firmware in recent production batches.

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Note however the usual silly subjective comments of their listening panel

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LOL Yeah, the only thing I was interested in was the power plots.

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Incidentally, 75 feet of your 27ga video cable should be no problem; the attenuation would be just a bit over 1db and should have no effect.

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Thanks for the encouraging words, John. But I guess what I really want to know is how exactly the calculated "1db loss" will (or will not) manifest on the image. Is that loss mainly in higher frequency signals? If so, will I see any visible loss of contrast in high-spacial-frequency regions of image (i.e. loss of image sharpness)? If it is uniform 1db loss over a wide frequency range, then will I see any general loss of image contrast???

I am still a bit worried, because 1db is about 12% attenuation in voltage (10 to the power of 0.05), and a 12% decrease in image contrast may be readily visible! In other words, our eyes are much more discerning than our ears.

WOW!!! My Axioms have already been delivered around noon today. I think it is one day earlier than scheduled! Too bad, right now I am in DC for a conference till Wednesday. LOL

Hey Amy, you should probably have an option of Ground Shipping available (with a price discount), in addition to the automatic FedEx 2-day air. I do not think everybody needs it delivered in 2 days. Or, did I miss something here???

I just returned home safely, and everything except for the HSU (delivery scheduled tomorrow) has been delivered!

Time to open the boxes...!!!

Okay, my 75-feet Mogami component and S-video cables have arrived. The 27-gauge coax wire used is much thinner than I imagined -- the individual wires are of less than 1/8" outer diameter. The component cable is configured as approximately 3/8" x 1/3" flat cable. These cables are very flexible, which is nice for on-wall installation; but their thinness got me a bit worried.

So, I very briefly tested them by simply swapping the cable from the DVD player to the projector. Since I do not have a component video switch box, Joe I could not do instantenous A/B comparison. I compared the images both in motion and still-paused.

Bottom line: At least under these conditions, I could not tell any difference whatsoever in image quality, with either the 75-feet cable versus a much thicker and shorter (6-feet) Acoustic Research component cable.

So far so good... one less thing to worry about (although something bad may still happen after I actually on-wall install these cables).

Thats great that at 75 feet there was no drop in video quality. Did you say it was a FLAT cable for component? Do you have a chance to actually compare a DVD image through a DVD player in a PC via computer cable to your projector and see if there was any difference in video quality on component vs computer RGB?
I might have to go long with my video signal but I will need to find a place that will spec maybe 50 feet of computer analog 15 pin cable. Or just go with about 40 feet of Digital Coax for sound and place my HTPC closer to the projector.

Saturn

Saturn,

No, I have not tested how DVD materials look like on my Yamaha when fed by a PC via RGB or DVI-D. Also, please note that I only tested the 75-feet cable with 480i souces; I do not currently have an HD source, or even a progressive DVD player! (or, is the X-Box progressive when connected with the component-out dongle???)

It is not a real "flat" cable. Because the manufacturer simply put together three 1/8" coax wires side-by-side parallely to make a tri-wire component cable, the entire cable has a rather "flat" shape (approximately 3/8" x 1/8" cross section).

As for your situation, I believe that as far as you use a coax-based RGB cable (rather than the usual twisted pairs), you will be fine with a 50-feet of analog RGB run. At any rate, I do not think there is any fundamental difference in picture quality between the analog RGB and the component connection. The signal bandwidths etc. are identical; the only difference is that the component connection carries Y/Pb/Pr signals, which is a simple linear transform of R/G/B signals.

By the way, I understand that DVI-D will not support a long cable run, correct?

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(or, is the X-Box progressive when connected with the component-out dongle???)

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I believe it does but you probably have to tell it to do so somewhere in the setup menus.

Semi, you were correct. You can enable/disable 480p/720p/1080i in the X-Box's "video setting" menu.

So, I am happy to find myself having a progressive DVD player. But, boy, is not X-Box's hard drive loud!!! In fact, it is much noisier than the Yamaha projector's inevitable fan. It is way too noisy to sit there as an AV gear, in my standards.

So, I have completed a "temporary" set up of my new 5.1 system.

One thing I had been worried about was the possible timbre mismatch between my Hales fronts and the VP150. It turned out that this is a non-issue. In fact, I found that timbre difference, if any, was more apparent between the VP150 and QS8. Moreover, the Pioneer's MCACC really seems to do a nice job of further eliminating the timbre variations among my speakers.

I have not carefully listened to the QS8's yet, but I can already say that I am highly impressed with the VP150. This is a heck of a capable center channel, which lives up to its codename of "Vocal Point"! I am already confident that these Axioms are here to stay in my house.

Maybe it is one of the vaunted IBM 75GXP models.
Get in line for another lawsuit i say.

Sushi,

Easiest way to silence that HDD is to replace it:
http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/howto/story/0,24330,3423058,00.html

If you really want to see those QS8's shine, pop in Signs. The corn field scene where Mel Gibson first sees the alien's leg is rather astounding on the QS8's. You actually feel like you're in a corn field. Creeped me out to know end.

Chess,

Bite your tongue. I had two of those POS's die on me. However, since it's an 8GB drive, and likely 5400rpm, it can't be a 75gxp.

I forgot to say one more thing...

Both the VP150 and QS8 that I bought were from the Factory Outlet. Although many people have said this already, I would repeat it here: I just cannot find a "blemish" in the units shipped to me. I did not use my lab's Zeiss microscope to examine every corner of them, but I just do not see anything that I would describe as a cosmetic blemish. I would not have minded a few scratches at all, but being unable to find one still feels nice! I can endorse a purchase from the F.O. highly, whenever you can grab what you want there.

By the way, my VP150 and QS8 are in Cherry. The surface finish is so refined that, even placed right next to my Hales (originally $3500/pair with, of course, real wood veneers), it does not look cheap at all.

Well Semi, i've had 1-75gxp die, 1-75gxp that i sold before it could potentially die, and 2-60gxps fail.
In the past week i've also had 1 Liteon 52x24x52x cdrw fail (oem but brand new) which makes a total for those drives 2 failed of 4 purchased (50% rma so far between myself and another computer building friend).
I'm starting to wonder about the general quality of components overall.

I only buy retail myself but when building for a friend, cost is usually the driving factor.
I've actually read somewhere that the oem labelled, but brand name products, get their oem labels b/c they don't quite meet the standards of the brand name company. However, since most of the oem stamped products will work most of the time anyway, the parent company can afford to sell them at slightly cheaper prices to get rid of them (hence why oem is often less expensive than retail versions) and still make profit even with a slightly increased RMA rate.

Any truth to this?

I do think the veneer is very well done however compared to the solid wood Tannoys i just bought, the Axioms pale in comparison.
Truly superb materials.

Factory Outlet is great eh? Huge 'savings' yet minimal visual artifacts. I was impressed as well. Too bad i couldn't get my EP350 at the time.

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I've actually read somewhere that the oem labelled, but brand name products, get their oem labels b/c they don't quite meet the standards of the brand name company. However, since most of the oem stamped products will work most of the time anyway, the parent company can afford to sell them at slightly cheaper prices to get rid of them (hence why oem is often less expensive than retail versions) and still make profit even with a slightly increased RMA rate.

Any truth to this?

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Not a bit. OEM products are what they sell to the computer assemblers like Dell, Compaq, Gateway, etc. They're cheaper because they're bought in bulk and often rely on the seller or assembler to provide the final customer with the warranty. When regular consumers like us buy them, they've simply been sold to the "gray market". Essencially, sites like newegg buy in bulk as if they're making whole computers and then sell the individual drives with a lower mark up than the retail version.

Thankfully, OEM HDD's carry the full manufacturer's warranty but this is not the case with all products and it pays to do your research.

Hey chess,

Which Tannoys did you get? Do you have a photo of your own Tannoys somewhere online? Just curious...

I just uploaded some pictures online but the quality stinks (taken with a creative labs pccam 600 i bought recently for quick shots and teleconferencing).



Here's the link to the Tannoy page of specs for them:
Revolution R1s

I picked them up for my office ($400 from ebay, retail at $700 cdn)) to replace my 11 year old Technics bookshelf system and now i'm running them off of a Harmon Kardon 380i receiver ($60 from a friend, mint condition).


I originally bought the Technics system for $1200 back in 1991 so at the time, it had alot of power and the 3 way Technics speaker (6 ohm, 100w rms) was really not that bad. However, the quality of the drivers b/w the Technics and the Tannoys are pretty night and day. I can pick out the Tannoys easy b/c they have a nice, smooth sound while the Technics are virtually raspy in their delivery.
I never really noticed just how bad they were before, mostly b/c the drivers sit higher above my head when i'm at my office desk so on the off-axis, the raspyness wasn't so noticeable.
I have now laid the Tannoys on their side at my desk to put the tweeter more inline with my ears. Smooth smooth is all i can say. Smoother than the Axioms even but considering the tweeters are very different designs and materials, this isn't surprising.
I'm not sure i would buy larger Tannoys or not for a music system but my wife sure likes the sound. She's always found the Axioms to be a bit bright for music but loves them for home theatre.

LOL chess!!! You could have scaled down the pics a bit...

Anyway, looks like a nice little pair of bookshelf you have got for the office. I have listened to Tannoys on and off over many years since my high school days (although never owned them), and I know what you mean by "smooth smooth." They are arguably The Father of the British Sound, eh?

Hate to spin off many new threads, so I continue here with a new question for y'all...

Okay, so the QS8 (QS4) has this interesting dipole/bipole configuration, with the two tweeters firing sideways out of phase from each other and the woofers in-phase to each other firing up and down, right? This obviously makes the QS8 functionally asymmetrical, i.e., when you face a QS8, the tweeter either on the right side or the left side can be in-phase to the woofers.

So, my burning questions are:

(1) When we order the QS8 as a pair, is each unit within the pair wired mirror-image to the other? Or are they always wired identically? I know that, for example, Boston Acoustics' dipolar surrounds are wired mirror-image to each other when you order them as a pair. Does Axiom do the same?

(2) If my pair is indeed wired mirror-image to each other, how can I tell which is which? And in this case, if they are to be side-wall mounted in a symmetrical fashion, which tweeters -- i.e., the rear-firing ones or the front-firing ones -- should usually be out-of-phase from the rest of the system? (similarly, if they are to be back-wall mounted, should the outward or inward firing tweeters be out-of-phase from the rest?)

(3) If all QS8's are wired identically at the Axiom factory, then the system will not be truly symmetrical even if all speakers are placed symmetrically. Is it worth the trouble of flipping the tweeter phases on one of my QS8's in order to get them functionally mirror-image to each other? Has anybody here ever cared about this?


I know I will have to experiment eventually, but I would like to have some comments from you guys first...!

Incidentally, after some initial experiments, my current plan is to mount the QS8's on the back wall, at about 7' high (the ceiling is 10' high) and approximately 15' from each other, so that they are quite sideways rather than rearways from the listening position.

Thanks!


PS: oh, btw, my pair of the QS8 surely have the same serial number.

I have to say that I am impressed with the Hsu VTF-3!

I was listening to Saint-Saens "Organ" symphony (Munch/Boston Symphony) this afternoon, while playing around with various matrix-surround effects on my new 5.1 system. Then came the famous pianissimo pedal tone in the slow second movement -- the low C with a fundamental at 16.3Hz. I, for the first time, realized that this recording contained such a clean bass. In fact, even before I "heard" it, several of the family photos and posters hung on the wall started to rattle...!

And I repeat, it is really a very very soft, pianissimo pedal tone that did this much damage.

Careful, sushi; if the Saint-Saens 3rd had that much effect, the opening of Also Sprach Zarathustra might completely collapse the walls!

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Okay, so the QS8 (QS4) has this interesting dipole/bipole configuration, with the two tweeters firing sideways out of phase from each other and the woofers in-phase to each other firing up and down, right?

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Alan has given me the answer via email. The answer is NO, the tweeters on the QS's are wired in-phase. I do not know where the heck I got the impression above; I believe that I have read a published professional review that states (mistakingly) that the QS8 is a hybrid dipole/bipole...

Anyway, one less thing to worry about, and it is time to enjoy more music!!!

You're not alone. I was under the exact same impression. Is it the woofer that's out of phase? Or are all cones in phase?

According to Alan, there is no dipole elements in the QS surrounds. Both tweeters and both woofers are wired in-phase. I suppose that there is a significant phase shift between the tweeters and woofers due to the crossover circuit.

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I believe that I have read a published professional review that states (mistakingly) that the QS8 is a hybrid dipole/bipole...

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Found the culprit (or at least one of them)!!! LOL

From Home Theater & Sound equipment review:

Since the Axiom Epic 80 system is of comparable size to my Paradigm system, my starting point for set up was easy, since I just replaced my existing speakers with the Axioms. I tweaked the toe-in of the M80Tis slightly, and moved them forward into the room to alleviate some boominess. A little care should be used when setting up the M80Tis or the midrange may sound a little forward. I stand-mounted the QS8 surround speakers, minimizing the amount the downward-firing woofer was impeded by the stand. For a permanent QS8 installation, I would recommend wall mounting or purchasing from Axiom the stands that will allow the bottom-firing woofer to breathe. The null point between the two tweeters fired directly at my listening seat. The VP150 sat in the usual location above my 32" TV. I raised the rear of the speaker slightly so that it would fire more directly at my listening seat.

This reviewer obviously misunderstood that the QS8's tweeters were in a dipole configuration... [sigh]

Perhaps what he meant about the 'null point' was the space between the two tweeter on the QSx.
I know someone on the forums had asked once before if they were supposed to setup the QSx speaker with one tweeter pointed directly at the listening area while the other tweeter would point elsewhere.

It seems that Onkyo just released in Japan a new crop of 6.1 receivers with the video upconversion feature. I believe that they will be released in the US sooner or later; the top model in this group should sell for around US$600 street. So, if anybody is interested in a modestly priced receiver with video upconversion, stay tuned with Onkyo.