Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater SVS PC Ultra...........and why it has to go!

For those that have kept up with my ramblings you know that I love my PC Ultra. I said I would never sell it but as a result of some furniture relocation in my HT room, the wife say's it has to go.

She has turned a blind eye to a lot of stuff that has come in and out of my house including the most recent Sunfire Cinema Grand (That I have yet to give to the guy I bought it for!) I don't feel like getting divorced, so I have agreed to tone down my sub. No more big a&% cylinders.........it's a sad day for me.

The SVS has been the one constant in my system for almost a year and half which is unheard of as far as I go.

So now I become a box guy.

I'm actually debating trying out an HSU to see what all the fuss is about. Main reason is they ship from Canada so I don't have to worry about the customs and duty hassles. I'm also pondering a Rocket but then again customs, duty and all that other crap come into play. I would like to try one of the new Axioms but again size may be a problem. The EP500 may work but for $1150.00, it's out of the running.

So if you were me and loved your SVS in a roughly 18 X 18 room, what would you get?

The one thing I do know is I'm going to try something with a 10 inch sub versus a 12 inch. Other then that I'm open to suggestions.

You may want to see if ebay canada has any Klipsch LF10 subs. I have a bunch of subs (including an SVS 20-39) and the LF10 is one of my favorites.

If the issue is floorspace, you are not going to find a current 12" sub that will take less of it.

Since you want to go box sub, the new PB12-Ultra is probably what you want since you like SVS. Ofcourse I like the VTF-3MK2. Both of those subs will take up more floorspace than your cylinder did, but will fill the 18x18 room easily.

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The one thing I do know is I'm going to try something with a 10 inch sub versus a 12 inch. Other then that I'm open to suggestions

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I would suggest the Hsu Vtf 2 Mk2 if what you want is a 10 inch driver.I think it could fill your room quite nice.There is also the turbo option in the future if you want more output from it.

I am also wondering about subwoofers and am leaning toward SVS. I'm looking at the PCi and PC-Plus. Considering the 16-46, 20-39 and the 25-31. Right now I'm leaning toward the PCi 20-39 to compliment my M80s.

What do you folks think?

Would the PCi 16-46 be a better match?

Why? What are your thoughts?

i have the hsu vtf 3mk2 in a room thats 12 wide by 15 long and about 8 feet high. i like deep bass and it well give it. but its very loud in the room and big it practicly shakes the whole house when your watching a good action movie. i have it set at -3db its calibrated with the volume about half way on the reciever. i had to turn down the volume on the sub between a quater and half just to stop things from vibarating. its also huge at close to a 100 pounds its not fun moving it around. so to say the least it would not be wise to get this to replace the svs since its bigger. did you ever look at 8 inch velvodyne subs there suppose to be great and not very big.

No, I have not looked at velvodyne. I have a 34 wide by 20 long by 8 ft high room.

I don't necessarily want to shake the pictures, but I do like to watch NASCAR.

Any comments on the SVS selection?

Here is an interesting recent thread:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=234165

It's not so much the floor space that the wife doesn't like, it's the height of the cylinder that she doesn't like.

Right now my main focus is on the HSU VTF-2 MK 2.....only because if I find it lacking (Which I doubt I will) I can always add another one down the road.

I like my Outlaw. Looks pretty cool too. For a sub anyway.

Ya, you don't want to go through the big D. I've bought a couple houses, cars, furniture.......started my retirment over a couple times.....

Rat....With the SVS cylinders it's about extension vs. SPLs. With the 25-31 you get max SPL but only down to 25Hz (typically a little more in room response). With the 20-39 you get 20Hz extension but a few less dBs. With the 16-46 you get the deepest bass but again a few less dBs than the 20-39. Most people find the 20-39 a good compromise because you get close to the level of SPLs of the 25-31 but you get the extension to 20Hz or more for movies. As far as the PCi vs. plus it's 525 watt amp vs. the 320 watt amp. I have the PB12-ISD (320 watt amp) in my 15'x15'x15' at 35% gain and I love it. It all depends on how big your room is (and you have a big room) and how much you really want to feel it vs, hear it. I would email SVS/HSU/Axiom with your expectations and room dimensions. All will be more than happy to assist you in getting the best sub for your needs.

I initially ordered a PCi but decided I wanted the box sub for *cough* decor reasons.
Typical guy response to tall cylinder sub: "That is WAY cool!"
Typical gal response to tall cylinder sub: "Get that water heater out of the living room!"

Had a cylinder sub...Rent house room 13 X 18 X 9 feet.

Purchased / built a new house.

Wife: "That black tube is not going into the new house! I want one that looks like a cherry end table."

Had a SVS 20-39 PC Plus...Big John now owns it.

New house room: 19 X 19 X two story vault (plus open kitchen).

Talked to SVS...Suggested SVS PB12-Plus/2 for new room.

Moved in...hope to order new SVS soon.

My .02.

WhatFurrer

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Had a SVS 20-39 PC Plus...Big John now owns it

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its working out very well for me..

but i cant wait to hear what that PB12-Plus2 can do in your new home!!

bigjohn

WhatFurrer, make sure to let us know what the difference in sound is between the old sub and PB12-Plus/2.

NeverHappy, I heard the Klipsch sub that 2x6 owns and recommends. I was super impressed with it - albeit in the small room it was in.

before buying my sub i looked over countless reveiws on hsu and other subs. what turned me off on svs one was the cylinder i don't like the look. the other everytime hsu was mentioned the svs owners and even the managment somtimes would reply to the threads and bash hsu. so i based my desion on hsu letting there product speak for itself which it does. my freind after listening to my sub got vtf2 the 10 inch model. his room is about the same size as mine and it sounds great. if you interested in it its a great sounding sub also. but your room is quite big so if you place sub close to where you sit it should do the trick. it would give you good bass and you wouldn't have to get another one. if you were thinking of getting two i would just go with vtf3mk2. both of theses subs have two different listening options. if you want deep bass switch the switch to max extionsion and plug one port. the other lets both ports open. both ways sound good its a personal prefrence. if you get the chance try a velvodyne out i was going to get one before i stumbled across hsu.

In the 10" range, I can think of 4 recommendations; 3 I have heard personally and although I haven't heard the 4th, I do own it's bigger brother.

1. You are already familiar with SVS, so you may consider the PB10-ISD (I own the PB12).

2. Wharfedale SW250. I really like this sub. Tight bass, nice looks (not your standard square box...it is teardrop shaped), and comes with a remote that allows you to switch between custom presets. I don't know about most people, but I wish my SVS had this feature. When I switch from DVD to music (or the other way around); I always have to get up and manually change the settings on the back (usually just the gain).

3. Paradigm PW2100. I find this sub marginally better than the SW250 in the HT department but it isn't as musical as the SW250. Both are very close, IMO. Paradigm also has the Seismic 10; which I haven't heard. It has much more power than the PW2100 and goes a little lower. If I am not mistaken, it is also significanlty more expensive than the PW2100.

4. Martin Logan Descent. I don't recall if you listed a budget; this sub is pricey. The box is very compact (22x20x18)yet contains 3 10" drivers in a pyramid configuration. This is probably the best 10" sub I have heard to date.

Granted, I have not heard them all; but out of the countless subs I have heard, these are my personal suggestions.

Good luck!

I did talk to HSU today, the doctor himself actually and he recommended one VTF-3 MK2 in my room. He also recommended something that caught me off guard. He wants me to get my sub out of the corner and behind my listening position. I watch from a couch that has a wall about 5 feet behind it. He recommended placing the sub directly behind the couch with the ports facing the back wall.

The reason we got on placement was I mentioned that I wanted excellent bass (Fast & Tight) when listening to music. Given that, I'm shocked on where he wants me to place it as it goes against most of what I know about sub placement.

I have been shopping around Canada talking to the HSU dealers and I'm fairly positive that I'm going to try some form of HSU. The prices I'm getting back are significantly cheaper then what it would cost me to land another SVS at my door..............I'm a die hard fan of SVS but a buck is a buck and I love trying new stuff.

I did get out today to a few shops and played around with some various subs including Paradigm, B&W, Energy, Klipsch, Mirage, JBL and a Sunfire.

To make a long story short, I thought the B&W was nice but way over priced. Didn't like the Energy or the JBL. The Mirage was nice but I got it to clip a little to easier for liking and on more then one occasion the limiters kicked in. The Klipsch was decent but I just didn't get the "Buy Me" now feel from it. My clear cut choice was the Sunfire. To my ears, it laid a beat down on everything else......but again, it's freaken expensive and I'm not willing to shell out that much money.

Yeah, Dr. Hsu is well known for his penchant for placing subs directly behind the listening couch. This is how he sets up his box subs in demo rooms at trade shows. The only problem with it is if the couch isn't near a wall, you'll have some creating routing to do for the audio and power cables.

I hear ya. I have a sub jack on the back wall with a plug in right beside it. Problem will be the wife and the kids. Will the kids trip on the two wires and will the wife turn a blind eye to them? Nobody ever walks behind there anyway but she still might not like the idea.

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The one thing I do know is I'm going to try something with a 10 inch sub versus a 12 inch. Other then that I'm open to suggestions.

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I've taken flak for this before, mostly for my use of the term "flappy, farty bass"... but all other things being equal, a slightly smaller driver will be tighter than a bigger driver (since there's ~40% less area on a 10" driver than a 12" driver) and since no one with a calibrated system ever uses more than a fraction of their sub's power, I'll trade tight bass response for SPLs at the same power levels.

Check out a bassist's rig at a club show next time you're out... 4x10" bass cabs are nearly a standard with the jazz and rock types (the Primus wannabes with the ride cymbals cranked down upside down and bass strings detuned 12 steps don't count - they love their dual 16" cabs - all that driver flap helps to cover missed notes - hey, it's hard to get a good grimace like you're having a prostate exam along with the dark posturing and try to hit the right notes at the same time!! )

Bren R.

I have both a Vtf -2 and a Stf-3 in my home.They are both calibrated to different systems.I would bet anything a person could not tell a difference in terms of sound quality between the 2.I don't believe the good Dr. would put his name on a product that could be deemed anything other than that of the highest in quality.

No doubt I'd jump all over a Hsu VTF-3 MKII.

i would go with the single vtf3mk2. i had a jbl and a cerwin vega 10 inch hometheater subs in the same room. they souned good but the vtf3mk2 was to say the least a mountian above them. in the price range nothing touches it that i have heard.

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I don't believe the good Dr. would put his name on a product that could be deemed anything other than that of the highest in quality.

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As for the highest in quality, you always have to add "at the price point"... I own an STF-2, and at it's price point, it's a great sub. If the market would bear $2000 subs as a mid-range, Axiom, Hsu and SVS would all shift around their priorities.

I'm not saying a 12" driver is bad, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. What you gain from a larger driver (lower frequency response and more air movement in the same excursion) is offset by what you lose (how fast the driver "reacts" due to the extra mass). The car guys may understand it better in terms of gears - there are no diff gear ratios that give you more low-end grunt and top end.

Axiom's taken a pretty big step with the XLF DSP microprocessor controlled EP500 and 600. It's preprogrammed to take the physics behind the driver into consideration. While the purist in me shivers at the thought of silicon making decisions about what I want to hear, in the end, it does make some sense to "correct" for Newton's First law Of Motion.

Bren R.

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As for the highest in quality, you always have to add "at the price point"

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True,very true.I do believe they do perform much better than the price would lead one to believe though.

Well gents I took the afternoon off and went and listened to both a VTF-2 MK 2 and a VTF-3 MK 2. Both are awesome subwoofers. The folks at the HSU forums were kind enough to put me in contact with people locally who had the subs.

So I grabbed some CD's and a few DVD's and off I went to meet some new folks. I'm not going to write a review here as everything that can be said about these subs is out there already. Anyway after 3 hours with the VTF-2 MK 2 and roughly 2 with the VTF-3 MK 2 I can say this with certainty, these subs are very, very close to each other. The VTF-3 MK 2 definitely hits harder and goes lower but the VTF-MK 2 is no slouch at all.

During my travels today I shot off an email to the good Dr at HSU regarding my concern that a 10inch sub was going to be more musical then a 12inch model. His response to this is below and they are his words:

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The VTF-3 Mk 2 is at least as musical as the VTF-2 Mk 2

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Funny thing is SVS said the same thing. a 12inch can rock just as good and just as fast and tight as a 10inch.

After today, I hate to admit this as I was in the 10inch camp, they are both right. The VTF-3 MK 2 hammered out some very nice bass and was tight and fast. I heard no audible difference in tracks between the two models when it came to the way they handled music. If anything I think the VTF-3 MK 2 may have actually been a little better but it may have been due to the fact it was a little louder. It also reminded me of the Sunfire..................which still blows me away!

So based on my room size, tastes, the fact that I will be using a Behringer and the recommendation from Dr. HSU, I ordered the VTF-3 MK 2 from a dealer out in Toronto. I should have it by the end of next week.

One more thing to note. I also asked Dr. HSU about the current Behringer trend concerning subwoofers. This is what he had to say:

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The Behringer 1124P should be a useful addition. It should be able to help reduce room peaks. If budget is not an issue, you should use that in the system as well. Flattening the response certainly would mean you will need a higher headroom sub.

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Interesting thanks for the update.

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While the purist in me shivers at the thought of silicon making decisions about what I want to hear, in the end, it does make some sense to "correct" for Newton's First law Of Motion.

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Doesn't a CD player do this when it converts the 1s and 0s on the CD to an analog audio signal?

wid: off topic, but I see that you are a Rotel man. Any rumor that they will be introducing a new pre processor or two, any time soon?

Second off topic question to the board. Spearit advertises blemished boxed NAD equipment. What is the definition of blemished box?

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Doesn't a CD player do this when it converts the 1s and 0s on the CD to an analog audio signal?

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Not really, no.

Bren R.

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The VTF-3 Mk 2 is at least as musical as the VTF-2 Mk 2

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Well, at least Dr. Hsu (what is his PhD in anyway? I feel like a real prat calling a guy that puts drivers into cabinets Doctor. Reminds me of a stoner rock or country-fried rock band) made a subjective analysis. "Musical" could mean anything and is very non-commital. One man's "musical" is another man's "Irving."

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Funny thing is SVS said the same thing. a 12inch can rock just as good and just as fast and tight as a 10inch.

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Now this I would like some clarification on. There is a certain amount of inertia inherent in a driver's movement - the more mass a driver carries, the harder it is to "turn it around" as it goes from push to pull and vice versa. This is why midrange drivers are smaller than woofers, and tweeters are smallest of all... the smaller a driver, the easier it is for it to push and pull at a higher frequency.

Now does SVS use a lighter - but yet as rigid - material for their 12" cones? If so, why not use it for the 10"s as well? And if not, how exactly do they make a 12" as fast and tight as a 10"?

Bren R.

Well, I'm pretty late to the party with this question, considering the fact that you have already bought your new sub, but in relation to;
"It's not so much the floor space that the wife doesn't like, it's the height of the cylinder that she doesn't like. "
I thought that you could lay those SVS down on their sides.
Was that not an option behind the couch?

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Well, at least Dr. Hsu (what is his PhD in anyway? I feel like a real prat calling a guy that puts drivers into cabinets Doctor.

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Unless I'm mistaken he is a MIT grad and has a Ph.D. in engineering.

As for your other questions, ask SVS and HSU. These guys answer questions just as fast as Axiom does and I'm sure they would be willing to break it down as to why a 12inch driver is as musical as a 10inch driver.

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I thought that you could lay those SVS down on their sides

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First I have heard of this. I can't say I would have done it however. From everything I have read, my PC-Ultra was built to be upright.

Yes...you can lay the Ultra on its side, it just takes up much more floorspace that way.

Dr. Hsu, to be more specific, I believe has recieved his Phd. in civil engineering from MIT.

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Dr. Hsu, to be more specific, I believe has recieved his Phd. in civil engineering from MIT.

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Yes, i just Googled Dr. Poh Ser Hsu. Nothing directly states it's a doctorate, but he does hold a catskin in Civil Engineering from MIT. So he can build subwoofers and bridges!

Bren R.

Here you go Bren.....from a google.

".....MIT-trained (Ph.D. in civil engineering) Poh Ser Hsu....."
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/speakersystems/75/

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Now this I would like some clarification on. There is a certain amount of inertia inherent in a driver's movement - the more mass a driver carries, the harder it is to "turn it around" as it goes from push to pull and vice versa. This is why midrange drivers are smaller than woofers, and tweeters are smallest of all... the smaller a driver, the easier it is for it to push and pull at a higher frequency.

Now does SVS use a lighter - but yet as rigid - material for their 12" cones? If so, why not use it for the 10"s as well? And if not, how exactly do they make a 12" as fast and tight as a 10"?

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I think the bottom line is technically that is correct, but in the end (the sound that reaches the human ear and then processed by the brain) it just gets to be very hard to tell the difference. Esp since volume differences, freq response etc change the perceved result.

i just like to say when people get technical about subs amps speakers it just takes the fun out of the whole ordeal(Lol). if its a bigger driver or a smaller one i could care less as long as it sounds good. i might have to go get a phd just to understand half the stuff you guys are talken about.

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i might have to go get a phd just to understand half the stuff you guys are talken about.

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Here's the "car guy version"...

12" vs 10" driver in sub... think of the 10" as a '70 Charger with a 340cid engine. Think of the 12" as a dump truck with a Cat C12 engine.

Start them beside each other... tell them go... they "should be able to go a city block in 10 seconds" so after 10 seconds - tell them to stop and reverse 2 blocks, wait 20 seconds, tell them to go forward 2 blocks again, repeat... who has the better chance of stopping on a dime and reversing direction without slowing down as they hit each extreme? Just as the Charger hits the turnaround mark, the dump truck may only be a few lengths into it's travel when it gets the signal to reverse direction. It's not an accurate representation of the "waveform".

If what you're trying to reproduce is a vehicle moving back and forth two block every 20 seconds - the Charger will "represent" that a lot better than the dump truck will (which if viewed by itself will look like the idea is to go 40 feet each way every 20 seconds!)

And for what all that terminology means:

-the waveform amplitude is 2 blocks (the total peak to peak difference)
-the frequency is 0.05Hz (20 seconds per complete cycle - 1 divided by 20) can one of you math types check that? That seems right to me?

Bren R.

You are forgetting one very important thing. The Charger and truck each have to move an added weight in addition to itself (as in air for the sub drivers). It takes less work for the truck to move that load. Ask the truck and Charger to move 1000 lbs. in addition to itself, and you get a slightly better analogy.

A better analogy would be two trucks, one 20% larger and more powerful than the other, and with better brakes.....then ask them to start and stop with the same loads.

What you are trying to describe is impulse response and/or decay of the drivers, which has a lot of factors......stiffness of the spider, strength of the magnet and motor assembly, response and power of the amplifier....and a lot more.

A 10" driver has to move much farther to move he same amount of air as a 12" driver.

That's what I get for speaking metaphorically.

I'll admit, my analogy was extremely flawed there... there are a lot of extra variables that wouldn't have made it in without sounding as best odd... "now if the car is made out of rigid aluminum rather than resined paper..."

Mainly meant as a joke for those who prefer a bit less tech in their explanation... but thanks for keeping me honest.

Bren R.

Yeah ok, well now that the fun has gone from this thread................what should we talk about now?

You guys can keep trying to baffle people with your ramblings but as I mentioned before, why not just contact SVS or HSU directly and get it direct from the guy's who do this for a living? I'm fairly certain that the folks at SVS, HSU or for that matter even Sunfire can explain a thing or two about why a 12inch driver can do exactly what a 10inch driver can do..................and do it just as well.

All I know is I heard the 10 and I heard the 12. The 10 had nothing on the 12. The 12 did everything the 10 did and did music as good as the 10 and perhaps even a little better. This wasn't the case with just the HSU subs either. I heard a few other 12 versions that I thought sounded very nice and very musical.

What about B&W? Love em or hate em they are known for making what some call a musical sub. That has been said time and time again about the ASW875 and the scary part is, the 875 uses a 15 inch driver!

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You guys can keep trying to baffle people with your ramblings

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Ouch... do you have to supply your own crown of thorns or does it come with the Holier Than Thou kit?

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but as I mentioned before, why not just contact SVS or HSU directly and get it direct from the guy's who do this for a living?

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Well, I do this for a living, they sell these for a living. If I were guaranteed an actual answer rather than a "through our patented space-age manufacturing process... we shift the paradigm and gleam the cube..." I probably would.

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I'm fairly certain that the folks at SVS, HSU or for that matter even Sunfire can explain a thing or two about why a 12inch driver can do exactly what a 10inch driver can do.

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Or Axiom of course. If Ian's trolling, mind ringing in on this subject? The EP350 and under - what are the differences between the drivers... besides just the depth they'll plumb on the frequency scale?

Bren R.

John, although it's contemplated that a cylinder sub will ordinarily be used upright, there's no technical problem whatever in placing it horizontally on the floor if that's more acceptable aesthetically.

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... do you have to supply your own crown of thorns or does it come with the Holier Than Thou kit?

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Darn, I'm all out, can you send me another one? Pot calling the kettle black don't you think? My post wasn't meant to be harsh. I must admit however that the words do sound harsher then they were intended. Sorry all. Nothing meant by it!

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there's no technical problem whatever in placing it horizontally on the floor if that's more acceptable aesthetically

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I must admit I did not know this. I would have thought that you would lose some response by not having the driver facing the floor.

Thanks for the info!

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Darn, I'm all out, can you send me another one?

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Nah, I'm a sanctimoniously non-religious pot.

Bren R.

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sanctimoniously non-religious pot

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i have an Amish kettle cousin, and she is real hot. but i just dont think it would work out..?

bigjohn

See? Now this is how a disagreement should go!

Speaking of which, NeverHappy - I'm going to be in YQR the weekend after next (11 & 12) if we both have time maybe we can get together for a beer and a garotte fight with our cables of choice... Me? 14ga. lampcord. You? Litz braided Polytetrafluoroethylene dielectric 18N oxygen-free copper with gold plated RCAs?

Bren R.

If you two do make sure to get it caught on video

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I'm going to be in YQR the weekend after next (11 & 12)

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Hell ya let's go for a beer or two. Are coming in on the 10th or the 11th?

As for cable. nah any 12 gauge will do for me! Like I mentioned after I bought the place, as part of my deal I inherited some mighty exotic speaker cable...........and yes it sounds like everything else!

And here i was just in Saskatoon not 2 weeks ago.
I just can't seem to ever make it to Regina.

Jeeeez, you guys have to start letting me know when you roll through town. The least I can do is buy you a beer.

Well from the looks of the box, it got here safe and sound!

Cool.

I have never heard an Ultra, so I am interested in what you think of the Hsu.

Can you believe that FedEx left a box just like that on my porch for a whole day? I was happy that I didnt have to go pick it up and even more happy it didnt get stolen. I guess the delivery guy thought no one would try to steal a box that heavy.
BTW: Neverhappy......I think you'll be happy with it.

Don't forget he is Neverhappy .I await his thoughts on it.

Some people's standards are too high for their own good.

erm, i know i'm not active in these forums, but i have read before that both 10 inch and 12 inch drivers are plenty 'fast' enough to handle the accelerations and decelerations in bass signals of 20 to say 100 Hz. How 'fast' the bass sounds in a system has more to do with how well it integrates (phase, time alignment etc) with the midrange and midbass, as that's where the snap and attack that we associate with kick drums and electric bass come from. The texture of the bass is more determined by the main speakers than the subwoofer, assuming of course that the sub is not boomy, and we all know HSU and SVS subs are not. In that case, a lot of the apparent difference in evaluting the musical quality of subs may well be from the integration between the sub and the main speakers, and i don't mean just setting up the sub to roll off as the main speakers pick up nicely.


I just didn't like that way 12 inch drivers were being portrayed as slow and flabby etc. What does everyone think of my opinion?

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The texture of the bass is more determined by the main speakers than the subwoofer

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I disagree with the above statement a bit. I think the sub has to be able to produce texture(harmonics) so we know the difference between 40hz piano note and 40hz bassoon note. I believe some subs, although not boomy, do this better than others.

Wouldn't the harmonics be the responsibility of the main speakers? Especially if they are of higher frequencies, as harmonics usually are.

Another possible explanation for the SVS subs being less 'fast' or having less texture than HSU subs as originally stated in the post may be because the SVS subs do not have a low pass filter? I noticed from the frequency response charts from the SVS websites that the subs have a flat response, say 90 db from 20 Hz all the way to 500Hz when the chart ended, and still no sign of rolling off. All that midbass from the sub might interfere with the mains speakers, making it more difficult to integrate them well. I don't know about HSU subs, haven't seen a freq response chart of HSU subs.

One amazing subwoofer shootout i have come across is this:
http://ultimateavmag.com/features/604way/

I found it to be a truly educational read. Funny no one mentions the Revel B15 in these forums? Because of the price range?

Actually...I wasn't refering to the Hsu vs SVS debate.

Without the harmonics, how would you tell between different instruments at a given frequency? If the tone is at 40hz, and you cross at 80hz....how much of that tone is in your mains?

Sorry to interrupt but after several hours of playing...............I came to the conclusion that the behind the couch placement didn't cut it for music. It worked fine for movies but didn't work at all for music. So after doing the sub crawl for a bit, I'm back to a good old-fashioned corner!

The sub is nicely tucked away in the corner, out of sight and more importantly, out of the reach of my kids.

I'm currently tweaking my Behringer but as soon as I get some time I will come back and post my intial thoughts.

I really dig how you implemented the sub for maximum waf. Good thing you didn't cover up those monitor audio's. They are too gorgeous to hide.

how did you find moving it a round. when i got it to say the least it was workout finding the best place for it. i have it placed write beside where i sit. i like it for movies but i find corner placement for music it does sound better.

Much of the credit sometimes given to subs for "tight" or "musical" bass in fact is a result of harmonics which are in the upper bass and midrange and are reproduced by the mid-bass speaker. With all settings the same but unplugging everything but a sub crossed over say at 80Hz, little tightness or musicality would be heard. A 40Hz fundamental tone would be reproduced by the sub but the harmonic at 80Hz would be about equally reproduced by the speakers and each higher harmonic which gives the bass note most of its character would be the responsibility of the speakers.

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really dig how you implemented the sub for maximum waf. Good thing you didn't cover up those monitor audio's. They are too gorgeous to hide.

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Hey thanks! I learned a long time ago to pay attention to where I place stuff so I don't have to hear it from the wife.

.....and I agree on the Monitors!

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how did you find moving it a round.

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It was a pain but it wasn't anywhere near as bad as my SVS. It actually didn't take me that long to set it up. I know my room and I know it's "Sweet" spots so I only had to try a few out.

Funny thing is the HSU is sitting within inches of where the SVS was. I'm kicking back playing around and trying out a few things now. I don't have a lot to say yet but there is one thing I can say and that is the HSU calls less attention to itself then the SVS did. Is that good or bad? Who knows but I like it. The HSU is also blending with my MA's far easier then the SVS did. I figured that going in but it was nice when it happened.

I'm not going to do a HSU vs SVS debate as that would be pointless but I will post some more thoughts tonight or tomorrow.

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Much of the credit sometimes given to subs for "tight" or "musical" bass in fact is a result of harmonics which are in the upper bass and midrange and are reproduced by the mid-bass speaker. With all settings the same but unplugging everything but a sub crossed over say at 80Hz, little tightness or musicality would be heard. A 40Hz fundamental tone would be reproduced by the sub but the harmonic at 80Hz would be about equally reproduced by the speakers and each higher harmonic which gives the bass note most of its character would be the responsibility of the speakers.

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Thanks John...I stand corrected. What about lower fundamentals?

Curtis, if you mean for example a 30Hz fundamental, then sure the sub has a little more responsibibility for the harmonics(60, 90, 120, 150Hz....etc.)but the mid-bass driver still gives it most of its character.

Well folks I spent the weekend with the HSU and it is as I figured it would be, a great sub.

I will keep it short and say this, if your into a lot of movies, the SVS PC-Ultra is the way to go. If your into more music then movies, the HSU is the way to go.