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Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98805 06/17/05 10:33 PM
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In reply to:

They are bright. There’s really no way around that.


The problem here is that we're talking about audio preferences. It's not what kind of music people listen to that matters in choosing speakers, it's the kind of speakers they're used to listening to. If you've had accurate speakers all your life, then Axioms will fit right into your tastes. If you've had inaccurate speakers, or are moving up from a bookshelf system or even a boom-box, then, yeah, there's no question the Axioms will sound bright to you.

How you react to that perception of brightness is personal. If you're willing to entertain the notion that the extra brightness is due to the Axioms giving you a truer representation of the signal than your previous speakers -- this is how I see it -- then you might quickly acclimate to the new sound. If you cannot get beyond the change in sound and want to hear things as you're used to hearing them, then no manner of explanation will soothe you. I will add that there is nothing wrong/worse/better about wanting to hear your music a certain way. Again, we're talking about personal preferences here.

I think we've all seen/heard plenty of evidence in support of the fact that M60s are very accurate speakers. Let's define the term accurate in terms of audio reproduction:

Accurate = flat frequency response = reproducing the input signal as closely as possible.

More accurate speakers reproduce their input signals with less deviation from the perfectly flat ideal than less accurate speakers. I, for one, value this quality in a speaker. I want my speakers to tell it to me like it is.


So I guess what I'm saying is I would be more quick to blame the source than the messenger where sibilance is concerned.

Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98806 06/17/05 11:12 PM
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In reply to:

I mean no offence, if my written tone implies that.




None taken Mike.

I don't think our points of view are that far from each other. If you had ever read my "Mother" post, you'll kno that I went through the same "these are bright" feelings for months actually. The conclusion I came to though, is that if my 60s sound bright with many pop/rock/metal recordings, yet sound wonderful with many jazz, classical and some rock recordings that are generally considered "excellent" or "reference" recordings the logical assumption (to me) is that it's more likely that those "reference" recordings are not recorded "dull" and I assume that THEY should be the standards by which I judge these speakers. I've done video productions where I've recorded Cello performances through a higher-end Rode large-diaphragm mic though a very nice (tube!!) mic preamp and straight into a good, pro Tascam DAT recorder. No compression, no EQ. And when I play it back on my M60s, it sounds just like the hall did that evening.....

I've mentioned many times here that I'm surprised/dismayed/disappointed in the general quality of music releases out there in ALL genres. I've spent a good amount of time listening to everything from the Ramones and Dead Kennedys in the early days through the Bad Brains, Red Hot Chili Peppers/Dave Navarro, Filter, Audioslave and NIN nails in more recent years. I have nothing against heavier rock/heavy metal or Alt of any kind... and I have no prejudices against those who listen to music such as this.

But if you ask me which types of music are the best assesment of a speakers accuracy.......

Now, that doesn't mean for a moment that I wouldn't hesitate to maybe recommend a different speaker than the M60 or M22 to someone who listens to a lot of heavier or older stuff.

We're cool, Mike. Like I said, I don't think we're really all that far apart in our opinions. I just lean a little more towards the recording/source quality rather than the speaker itself.


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98807 06/18/05 12:31 AM
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(Semi)official M50 Posse responce:

Not familiar with that term.

Never "heard" of it.

Will have to convene a study group and get back with you.

(Sorry for the delay; too busy listening to music, rather than listening to speakers)











(Heh, heh, heh!)

Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98808 06/18/05 01:48 AM
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Ok, cool.

Now, hypothetically speaking, what if it really isn’t the recording, and is the speaker? Say for instance, my M80’s. Just try thinking outside the box for a minute fellas……and bear with me.

Under this hypothetical situation, could it be possible that a different tweeter design, that would re-produce sound with the same frequency response characteristics, but possibly made of a different material, would reproduce those “detailed” sounds me all love, but yet not have exude any sibilance? (I am the comma master btw)

If anyone could spec one out for me, I’ll buy the damn things and experiment. Preferable one that would not require any cabinet modifications, or cost over $100 each, seeing how I’ll have to buy four.


Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98809 06/18/05 01:55 AM
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Yes...Being a new owner of M50's, I WOULD NOT say they are particularly bright...(as compared to my Athenas which ARE bright). I listen to Rock and POP.

Athena AS-F2s Driven by NAD C370


Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98810 06/18/05 02:09 AM
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I had an Axioms system in my home for a trial period. I experienced some sibilence, mostly with dialogue on the VP150.

However, after a lot of listening time, I arrived at the conclusion that it was the source material to blame. I noticed sibilance on some DVD's; yet other DVD's had no sibilance whatsoever.





Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98811 06/18/05 02:38 AM
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Mike, that sort of suggestion has often been made before and isn't really "thinking outside the box", but rather thinking outside of reality. If the "frequency response characteristics" are the same it doesn't matter what materials the engineer has used to obtain them. As Alan has pointed out here, "soft" materials don't mean softer sound, despite frequently heard comments to the contrary. We should stick to the facts that we've learned(at least those of us willing to learn)from audio engineering principles.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98812 06/18/05 04:34 AM
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Well mdrew, i'm in agreement with you that some Axioms are bright. I said that in my first review of the M60s three years ago, so you are not alone.
I'm in disagreement with your opinion that this is a flaw of sorts that Axiom should 'work on fixing or improving'. The assumption being made there is that Axiom has some knowledge that their product that needs improvement, but that assumption is not valid if you ask the speaker designer what he really thinks about his product. If Ian (and other Axiom designers) feel they have built a perfect speaker with smooth linear response, no one who buys them should be expecting improvements. The idea they are flawed and need to fixed may not be the opinion of the speaker designer. Along this line, i would not expect any 'fixes' anytime soon.
Instead, if one believes the speakers have such a flaw, that consumer should buy other speakers.
I have, yet i still own my Axioms.
I think they are fantastic. Depending on the recording the clarity is superb, but sure, there are other good speakers out there that can do detailed sound w/o being forward but that high level of clarity (the 'brightness') seems to make subtle details stand out more obvious in my mind.

However, consumers should keep in mind that Axiom does sell other speakers that are not as 'bright' as the M22/M60/M80 line. I have the M40s in house and i know that the sound is much more recessed but to me it still has a classic Axiom sound (if i could use such descriptive words). My thoughts on the two can be found here in case anyone wanted a short read.

Axiom makes an excellent speaker at a superb price. There are many other brands out there, many are more expensive. Consumers who feel the Axioms exhibit some problem should just start saving the pennies for one extra year and consider another brand that suits their personal preferences more.
I'm a huge fan of Tannoy and Monitor Audio, coincidentally both British companies. Tannoy can make some colourful speakers (audio wise that is) but i like the sound, so i bought a pair. Hopefully on Sunday i will finally have a chance to A/B the Tannoys with the M60s. I've been curious for some time about the detail that the Tannoys can produce but without the forward tone that the M60 usually has. For kicks i will also test out the M40s and M60s in my upstairs living room which has much harder surfaces and less furniture than our basement room. We shall see if the M60 actually sounds any sharper. Keep in mind that i cannot A/B two rooms unless i can move through space and time instantaneously so any observations in this regard will be purely subjective. The A/B speaker switching thoughts should be somewhat more accurate.
I'll post some thoughts on it since it applies to this topic.
Pictures included.



"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98813 06/18/05 04:41 AM
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Mike, as I said before, my equipment has the Vifa tweeter which isn't metal, and I've heard sibilance and harshness, on occasion, from some, but hardly all, sources.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: Sibilance - S's overstressed
#98814 06/18/05 06:27 AM
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In reply to:

Under this hypothetical situation, could it be possible that a different tweeter design, that would re-produce sound with the same frequency response characteristics, but possibly made of a different material, would reproduce those “detailed” sounds me all love, but yet not have exude any sibilance?


The frequency response is the sound. What you're asking is impossible. Not all sibilance falls in the same frequency range. A little googling told me that sibilance, especially from vocals, falls in the 2 to 10khz range. So to design a tweeter that de-emphazised sibilance you would need to depress quite a wide range of sound.

I would rather use an EQ that I could turn on and off at will rather than be stuck with a speaker that veiled my highs permanently.

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