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Mojo
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M80s or LFR660 #440753 01/16/2021 7:42 PM
by Cork
Cork
I was all happy with my planned M80 purchase when I broke my rule on "weird new-fangled stuff" and read a few threads on the LFRs and am now intrigued.
For a two channel music-only system (no sub) would you guys think the M80 or the LFR660 would be the better/more satisfying choice? I'll add that I don't really need M80s in my living room, the M60s would be sufficient; I've just always wanted a pair of M80 and figured what the hell, why not. (My room is 19^3 x 13^4 x 8; there are adjacent rooms that roughly equal the volume.)

Also, a secondary question - I've avoided this kind of purchase in the past because I'm afraid of hardware obsolescence. Meaning if I buy a good speaker I'm fairly certain I'll be able to listen to that speaker 20-30 years from now on whatever receivers they're making then; but if the DSP for the LFR breaks and Axiom has moved on, I'm stuck with a pair of expensive door stops. So, if you run unprocessed (non-DSP'd) amplification into just the front channel of the 660, does it perform like an M60?
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Re: M80s or LFR660 #440767 Jan 17th a 09:34 PM
by aaaaaaaaaaaaa
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In listening rooms we are looking for a RT60 of 0.3-0.45s. Period. If the decay time of our room is shorter in duration than the recording's reverb (or decay at time of live recording), than the perceptual effect is we are in THAT acoustic space. The decay in the recording becomes the trigger for our brain's impression of space -not our room. Cool! There are many ways to shorten room decay time, but that is another story. Longer room decay times mean we are turning it up for perceptual dynamics. This loads the room harder at bass frequencies and causes other issues like clipping or driver distortion. This is why the other fellow had issues with a bookshelf sounding wonderful but a tower sounding all congested and distorted I would guess. We move the goal line further away when we dump more energy into a problem room already loaded with sound -chasing dynamics so it sounds "live"

The issue with Mojo's room is solved by Active LFR speakers, but that is not to say passives are at fault or him or anything he is doing. His room decay is a big factor. His space trades perceived dynamics for extended decay and sweetness. But he loves dynamics! We all do. Gotta have em! smile So, we turn it up louder because it is not perceptually dynamic until we do so. The effect is worsened on busy or dynamically compressed tracks. They don't sound dynamic until loud. Then it's just bad news.

Firing across the short axis loads the room at a higher frequency and is audible in a way not always liked. We prefer a wide\deep and diffuse presentation, and also real dynamics, but there is no free lunch. Omnis solve the issue in part because they give perceived dynamics AND a diffuse presentation without relying on the room alone to accomplish it with reflections. The LFRs goose up the delayed reflections, and are similar enough in response to the direct sound, that we don't have to drive the room as loudly to have a lush and immersive sound field above bass frequencies. The other solution is to employ speakers that cannot reproduce lots of bass at the problem frequency. Then you can strategically deploy a sub in a room nullpoint to cancel room modes on that axis.

Probably why the M2s are so well liked. Very easy to deploy in normal living spaces without causing bloom that erode the intelligibility of everything in music we like.

The LFR660s I'm sure are wonderful speakers. If you can afford them for sure go for it! I would! But there is a lot to be said for the role acoustics plays in a room. It is a tricky subject.

I'm a broken record. But pop a balloon. What does the sound do? Remember the room you are listening in is essentially an EQ mechanism -one you can't turn off. smile

Comparing graphs, or product measurements is great as a stink check. Some products are just bad. But graphs are not good for much else once you plunk energy into a real room that is full of compromises. Things like this are why people get paid to design spaces for a living -to eliminate as many compromises as possible and save money for the owner\performance space. The other option is to spend the money on technology that makes these issues moot. LFRs!! We are paying for the efforts Ian and Andrew have already put into a product that ensure a fantastic outcome with less dependence on the room itself. A smart and value based choice based on my experiences setting up rooms and dealing with real life limitations for placement and treatment.

Do eeeeeetttttt! smile
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