After a lot of requests we decided it was time to introduce a truly full range, high powered, bookshelf and surround speaker. Introducing the M5HP bookshelf (also available in an on-wall and in-wall version) and the QS10HP surround speaker.

Video of M5HP and QS10HP

For all the details on the M5HP and our special pre-order offer:

M5HP

For all the details on the QS10HP and our special pre-order offer:

QS10HP

Wow. Cool.

I love them! You have me thinking of upgrading!

I am hoping the use of the HP driver in combination with the mid-range will eliminate the objections I've had with the M3 platform in the past.

I'll contact Deb to work out some pricing for me.

What do the M5HPs weigh? They look great. Especially in black.

Are they 699$ or $783? (Bottom of page.) For $699 a pair they seem like a fantastic bargain. Perhaps a loss leader to get Axiom chatter rolling online. Great job guys.

Edit: I was going to nudge about some 8" woofer based models. Any plans in the future?

They haven't milked their 6.5" models yet. Once they do that, they'll go to 8" and extol the virtues of those.

While we're at it, can you also price me out an Axiom Air N5HP with 150W per side please. I am not kidding. A single battery with 4 hours of backup is just fine.

NIce the darn bookshelves I wanted. Now Debbie will be freaking if I say I want to upgrade ;(

But, just wondering if the move is to ATMOS and DTS:X and the recommended direct firing, why the QS10HP ?

OMG ......... Two M5HP's a VP160 and four ONWM5HP and four M5HP Atmos. Oh OH are you making a ATMOS M4HP for ATMOS Heights ?

And only 13 years after purchasing my M22's and then wanting such a speaker from Axiom, the M5HP is born. Too bad I have the room for my M80's otherwise I would be upgrading the M22's.

Looks familiar



I never thought Axiom would build something so conventional, looks good. Its what I wanted many years ago so I built my own. I definitely would have bought the M5's

The M5HP is similary good.

I was going to go with M22s for all of the surround channels once I move to Atmos/DTS:X, along with M3 in-ceilings, but I'll be interested in what people say about the M5HPs for this purpose.

If I'm reading this correctly, I believe the pricing is $699/each...

-pd

Finally! I suggested this speaker 10 years ago!
I think the M5 will sound terrific!
Very nice!!!
Good luck with the new speakers!

Intrigued by the m5. The qs10 have no interest in for atmos. I'm trying to get rid of my qs8 for atmos.

I'd like to know how the m5 on walls compare to the m3 bookshelf for bass. How thick are the onwalls?

The M5HPOW will be better by 5 or 10 Hz compared to the M3 bookshelf and the bass and midrange will be more accurate.

I wonder how James Tanner is feeling about this. I don't see any point in the Bryston Mini A anymore!

Couldn't resist... ordered.

Looks like the website has been corrected, it is $699/pair. Guess I will order 3 on walls instead of the original plan of M22 on walls...

Anyone know how long this intro pricing lasts?

-pd

Those look fantastic - both the M5 and QS10.

Congratulations to Ian, Andrew and the crew on these new quality, innovative products.

...

Wow, great to see these new products!
Ian/Andrew - what are the frequency response specs for the on wall version of the M5? I only see one version in the specs section, but I assume the on wall version will not hit -3dB all the way down at 45Hz. That would be crazy talk, no?

This may worth the upgrade program for me as I have to stick with on walls but would love to get full(er) range sound. 3x on wall M5 for front L/C/R would replace my existing M22/M2/M22 combo.

Would pairing the on wall M5 with my existing QS8's work alright? I'd love the QS10's but due to their considerably larger size I'd have a hard time fitting them in where the QS8's are located.

Cheers,

Yeah I'm excited to hear people compare to new onwalls to the old. If they can match the bass of the m3 bookshelves in a onwall speaker my prayers have been answered.

The M5HP will be so much better! The M3 bass and mid-range blows; the M22 blows too. Everyone who owns an M3 or an M22 ought to do their ears-brain system a favor and upgrade.

Not sure they blow for surround duties in Atmos, but now I have the itch wondering about these onwalls, dang Axiom why do you do this to me.

I don't know about surround because I have not heard them in that application.

Randy, a man of your means and intellect just has to find out just how good the M5s are. You don't want to be jealous of mine do you? Well...do you?

I do like my in/on wall M22's which have a bit better bass than the on-wall only equivalent, but they do totally need my EP500 backing them up.

With M5 on-wall's I could start using a 60Hz or better crossover setting and I'm sure the sound quality would improve.
Now to make my wife understand why it's in her best interest to let me upgrade the HT....

I've lost my intellect and my $ with Audio and Homebrewing hobbies, lol.

I wonder if the onwall versions will have the same snapon bracket as the other onwalls, can't find a picture.

You'll still need a sub with the M5HP but the mid-bass and mid-range will be Oh! So sweet!

Hi cb919,

Tomorrow we will have product pages for the on-wall and in-wall version with pictures and specs.

It is no problem to pair M5 fronts with QS8 surrounds. The M5 on-wall version will not reach the 45 Hz at the bottom end but if you have a sub in your system you could set the crossover to 60 or 80 Hz.

Ian - We definitely need to add a pair of QS-10's here. They are perfect to replace the ACI Emerald On Walls.

Looking forward to your thoughts compared to the M50, Craig (if you still have that pair).

Ouch. Are you talking about the bookshelves m3's ? Or onwalls? The bookshevles with the right amp can put out a nice bit of bass. The onwalls.... no bass and definitely sub.

I am talking bookshelves. I have never heard the in or on-walls or in-celing. The M3s put out bass but it's not nice. Neither is the mid-range - not to my ears anyway. My Dreamcatchers blow them out of the water. The Dreamcatchers however bottom out with less than the advertised 80W/channel; Totem won't fess up to this. This is never a problem in my 2.1-channel space but it can be a limitation for others.

The M5HP will take care of all of this I am sure albeit at a larger size and more $.

I am referring to the M3ti BTW. I don't know about any other versions.

We still have the M50's ... We are finishing some remodeling, and when done, we will have five main systems.

System 1 - A pair of Klipsch LaScala II's in two channel.
System II - A pair of Legacy Signature SE's in two channel, bi-amped OR a pair of Axiom LFR-1100's taking turns.
System III - A pair of M-100's, VP180 HP, and soon to be QS-10's
System IV - A pair of M50's, VP150 and M3's
System V - A pair of Martin Logan Electrostats.

Both Audyssey and ARC allowed my on-wall M3s to be set at 70Hz without issue, which I currently just leave at 80Hz and use bass management, but I could see the M5 going deeper which would work nice for a 2.1 setup (or other application).

Not sure I see any point in the M50s and the M60s now either given the M5HP.

Since I've asked for both of these in the past, I suppose I should look at upgrading now.

EDIT: M5s ordered! Traded in my M22s purchased on 1/11/2011. That's 6 years minus 1 day. Hasn't felt that long. Shame my prize for helping name the LFR1100s had long since expired.

Is there a frequency chart for the M5? Interested in comparing to the M22

These will sound soooo much better than your M22s not only on the lower end but also the mid-range. Paired up with your EP500, it will be a dream in your large room!

Will the QS10 fit on the FMS QS stand (have these stands for my QS8s)?

Will theses speaker require me to re-calibrate my Audyssey EQ setup. I have the M22's with EP400/EP125 subs VP100 center and M2's for my surrounds. Also will they overwhelm my system for listening to music through pro-logic 2?

Thank you Ian. I am quite pleased to see the -3dB frequency for the on-wall M5. Like many others, I'm also interested in seeing the frequency response graph when you have it available. Although I'm guessing it'll be the typical 'Axiom flat' response :-)

As soon as I get home from this business trip I am measuring my walls to make sure the extra width of these speakers will fit and then I am ordering them! Thanks to Debbie's quick replies I have trade up values already established.

I am curious however how with 3 drivers, one of which is larger than the M22, why the height dimension is actually shorter than the M22 on walls? Overall cabinet volume is quite a bit...more voluminous....but height is shorter. Interesting

Hi Tico,

The QS10s do fit on the FMS-QS stand but it is a different top plate. We will make the top plates (with the collars installed) available on their own for $39.00 each.

Congrats.

Very nice addition to your lineup; however, my Rosewood M22V4s paired with my Rosewood EP800V3s will happily remain in my system because their outstanding performance.

Besides, I like the tall, slim look. The 22s & 800s compliment each other visually...

TAM

Hi gary135r,

Of course I will suggest you run your system without running Audyssey EQ and live it with for a bit before trying it with the EQ. You may want to think about upgrading your VP100 to a VP160 to give you a nice balance across the front with the new M5s.

Hi cb919,

The height is almost the same as the M22 on-wall but the width is quite a bit more with the 6.5" woofer. It is also a bit deeper, which doesn't seem like much but percentage wise with the wall thickness removed it is significant.

I was thinking the same thing about my 22's thin style complimenting my living room and the light brown color of them matches my entertainment stand exactly (which the new speakers don't). I am tempted by these speakers, but I'm perfectly happy with what I have. Dilemmas.

I've been happy with my system since the day I've built it back in 2009. Changed to a vertical center channel early on - once I did a bit of research and did some back to back experimentation against the VP150. Otherwise no changes in my audio parts for over 7 years. All that to say my M22's with an EP500 have kept me happy for a long time. But now I know even more happiness fits my room constraints and is within reach!
On wall M5's for left center and right - can't wait to hear them. Why can't it be Friday so I can be home to measure and order?

BTW, M5 being shorter than M22 is a good thing for for fitting the vertical center. Also, since these are on-walls only (my existing are the in/on wall architecture series now discontinued), I may even experiment with some narrow wedges to angle the speakers towards the listening position instead of being flat on the wall - has anyone else experimented with that using on-walls? Does Axiom recommend that or just keep them flat?

Hi cb919,

The listening window family of curves are all very similar so you should not have to angle them in, but experimenting in your room is always worth doing.

Is anyone planning to use these in a 2.0 stereo setup, or as surrounds in an atmosphere setup?

I have m22 as LRwith EP 500 and it's a great combo for 5.1. Not sure if the M5 can knock that combo off its pedestal.

Are the M5 as revealing and detailed as the M22 or is it more of a power and low end impact bookshelf?

The M5HP will blow the M22s out of the water! It's the bookshelf speaker Axiom should have built instead of the M22. It's just that simple!

Craig, can you buy the Paradigm bookshelves below and tell us if they are better than the M5HP given they are 4 times the price?

http://persona.paradigm.com/persona/specs.php?model=persona-b

Am I mistakenly in AVS? So much conjecture by those who have never heard the product.

Plus, all of a sudden, it seems that everything around here 'blows'.

Is 'blows' now a proper technical audio term?

TAM

I wonder what the recommended distance is between the M5 and back wall.
I'd also be curious to hear why someone with a small room wouldn't want the QS10 too.
Cost might be a legitimate concern but I'd still want the lower cross over point (my current avr only has one for all channels).

No reason why you wouldn't want to put the QS10 in a small room. It will be vastly superior to the QS8.

TAM I trust Andrew to do an amazing job on the M5HP. It's time for you to trade your M22s in.

Yes, I would like to know what size room these would be best in. Says Meduim to large. What exactly is a medium sized room. My room is 11.5 x 15 x 7.5. Still debating going ATMOS or sticking with 7.2 or maybe just adding front heights and a going four subs would be better in my room.

Your room is on the small side of medium.

Perfect for these speakers!

Sorry, but my system of M22s + EP800s is deficient in nothing - powerful & articulate in HT duties.

Your enthusiasm is a little over the top for me but maybe it's because I'm an old phart. Enjoy your new toys...

TAM

TAM I agree the M22 with sub is a great combo. However I have the on walls and I know that having on wall is a compromise and I need to set my x over a bit higher than I'd like. However for price vs performance the M22 was the best I could find at the time. The M5 should remove this restriction while still allowing for on wall setup at a price point I can afford. I'm not immediately a fanboy of them and I will take advantage of the 30 day audition to make sure it is an improvement in my setup. If they are an improvement they stay and if not I keep with the setup I've been happy with for 7 years. But as Mojo said I trust Axiom to make a detailed speaker and on paper it looks like a step in the right direction for my setup. I hope to find out for certain once they ship though!

Cheers all,

Replying to my own post as edit time has elapsed.

Now that I think more about the M5, it'd be really interesting to see or read a 'developers diary' from Andrew or Ian on the thought process that went into the M5 and what the design give and takes were compared to the M22. Given that the M22 was the previous flagship book shelf, it'd be good to know what is gained (other than deeper extension) with the new design. How is detail retained or improved? Changes in cabinet design? Crossover selection with different size drivers vs 2 5.25" drivers? When would you pick an M22 vs an M5? Or an M80 vs an M5 etc...

Go immersive. On my 2nd build for others. Can't tell you how frustrating it is to install it and not have it myself. Roughing in one on Saturday coming up.

Your room would be loaded to the point of giggliness with 2 sb-2000s let alone 4 ep500 subs if you set them up right. I would consider your room a small room, a large bedroom size @1300 cu.ft. Mojo experienced 2 of the subs I mention in a room virtually identical in size to the room you are building @1700 cu.ft. Very fun in there.

The M5HPs in your new room would rock it to the point of ridiculousness if you asked them to. If you went all around 7ch MP5HP in wall with decent in ceilings and subs you would have a stunner of a setup at a bargain price. You could have a wall mounted fixed frame screen. Perfect for your small room. You just have to make sure your side surrounds are not firing into the ear of a person seated nearby. This will mean placing them slightly further back by a foot or so.

The two sb-2000s were causing heart palpitations.

I typically consider rooms up to 800ft^3 small, 800-2500ft^3 medium, 2500-4000 ft^3 large.

My dreamcatchers are in an 800ft^3 room and I have tons of headroom with them even though they bottom out at 1/6th of the power of the M5HPs.

You would buy M22s over M5HPs if you can't afford the extra money. There is no other reason.

Hi Mojo, have you heard the M5's as part of beta or something? Just curious as you are stating your opinion rather definitively - it sounds like 1st hand experience. I agree they look good on paper, but until I do some listening I can't state which sound signature I prefer and why.

For ported speakers, yes.

Bridgman...lol!

I have not heard the M5HPs. I don't have to in order to know they will shame the M22s and M3s. I know this because I've heard the M22s, M3 and Air (which is based on the M3 platform). Use of the HP driver and the smaller midrange will resolve the obvious drawbacks I've heard in the M3 platform and the M22s. The M5HPs are essentially Bryston mini As with higher power handling, higher sensitivity and deeper and more linear low end.

I have a question out to Andrew as to whether the midrange will be sealed in its own enclosure and if the cabinet will be stiffer than the M22ti. This will give me an indication of whether or not the midrange will be superior to the mini A.

Axiom team, I already have a subwoofer for lows, will I gain anything going from my wonderful m22v4's to the M5's? Are the M22 stands compatible with the M5's? Thanks

Mojo, you're enthusiasm is cracking me up. Personally until I hear them.... I have no opinion. Improved mid range or a speaker with too much mids can make a speaker sound like a tin can too...think bose. I hate too much mids as it becomes harsh. I just spent money on a few things here so I'm in no position to push the wife further..lol. m3, ep500, ep800, axiomair all since November. But I'm very interested in hearing the onwalls. I have several applications for them.

I'm wondering that same thing. With the EP500, what's the advantage moving from m22 to M5. I can see as a 2.0 stereo option, more extension. But in a 2.1 or surround setup that's what the EP 500 is providing.

I noticed SPL in-room for QS8 is 98, and QS10 is 92. Is this correct?

Does anyone know if the wall mounting brackets are the same as the QS8's? I have QS8's mounted on the wall in a dedicated theater application with the brackets that were included. Thinking about the QS10's as surrounds because I listen to a lot of 5.1 music (DVD-a, sacd, etc.), and my l/c/r's are M-80's.

LOL newf! BTW, my Bose 601 Series III have multiple deep depressions in the mid-range. I gave them away to my buddy who thinks they are God's gift to audio (both his eardrums are shot from taking out wolves, bears and coyotes).

Nachos, no way the QS8 sensitivity is 98db/m/2.83V. I call BS (a misprint?) on that!

The midrange will sound much better on the M5HP and so will the sub-bass...compared to the M22 and the M3 (and maybe the M50?).

Mojo,

You really ought to know better than to use phrases like "the M22ti midrange blows" especially when you haven't heard the new M5, let alone hearing it in a double-blind test. I suspect, given Ian's record, it will be a fine speaker, but in a double-blind test, it may well be a matter of nuance that distinguishes it from an M22. Certainly I'd expect more substantial deep bass than the M22, with the M5's larger enclosure.

But it will be difficult to better the M22s neutral midrange and upper bass.

To answer several forum members who posted questions here, the distinguishing feature of the M22 has always been its superbly neutral midrange. When I worked for Axiom for many years, I championed the M22 from the very beginning, over the M80ti and M60ti, neither of which I cared for at the time (around 2002). The M22s midrange was much smoother and more neutral than the M80ti or M60ti.

With some refinements, the later versions of the M80 came to be excellent, as did the M60. I've watched Ian develop speakers and work very hard to get a speaker that bests the M80 by even a small margin. And even then, it's a matter of nuance --sometimes cleaner sound at high volumes (hence the HD drivers).

The kind of hyperbole that exlabdriver correctly took issue with is often found on other sites, which I avoid, for that issue and the kind of anecdotal, casual opinions rigidly adhered to, no matter the scientific evidence to the contrary. It has no place here on the Axiom forums, which have always been a model of reasoned, thoughtful talk about sound and music reproduction and the science and measurement technique behind it.

Alan

Well said, Alan!

Thanks, Nachosgrande, and your question and others were in my mind when I replied to Mojo.

I made a typo: it should be "HP drivers," not HD (I've been watching too much TV on my new flat screen. . .)

And for the record, I'm no longer "resident" at Axiom and haven't been for several years.
(I must figure out how to change the auto signature that follows my name on the forums.)
And for those who are wondering, yes, I still find the M22s with an EP500 subwoofer a wonderfully neutral and pleasing system. I also use QS8s for surround duties.

Alan

Dang, tried to pull the trigger on (3) M5HP on-walls vs my original decision of M22 on-walls, but it seems the website does not want to take my order (keeps asking me to choose finish options even though I have).

Guess I will try again later...

Ordered

I will answer a bunch of questions here. Hopefully I didn't miss any.

The M5 does fit on the FMS stand but we did modify the top plate to make it more centred on the stand. I would suggest getting new top plates for you stands. The will cost $39 each.

The sensitivity delta is not that great between the QS10 and QS8. We have changed the spec on the QS8 as it was out by 2dB. I am also going to try to get the sensitivity of the QS10 up a dB or two before we start shipping. So it will end up between 2 and 4 dB less efficient. Going after bass generally reduces the sensitivity.

The wall mount bracket for the QS10 is the same Power Bracket as the QS8. Just lift off the QS8 and put on the QS10.

As mentioned by Exlabdriver and Alan the difference between M22s with a subwoofer and the M5 are largely mitigated, especially if the crossover point is quite high (120 - 150 Hz). But in a lot of 2-channel systems the "satellite" speakers are running full range even if there is a sub in the system. Here the M5 will be able play much louder as there is no strain of bass being put on the 5.25" driver(s).

The M5 5.25" driver is in its own little enclosure which both separates the back waves in the cabinet and acts like a natural high-pass filter.

It is nice if you can be a foot or more from the back wall but we do have port plugs available if you need to be very close to the wall. This only applies to the bookshelf version as the in-wall and on-wall use the boundary affect in their design.

Thanks for chiming in Alan - great to see you still in the forums.
Edit - Also thanks to Ian, we posted at the same time.
Wondering when the frequency response graph will be posted? I'd like to know if the M5's have a flat response like the M22 (& most Axioms) or an engineered 'hump' like the M3's?

Hi Dan,

I will post them next week. Just doing some last tweaks. There is no need for the hump like the M3 as the M5 plays very low and linear.

Alan, good one! I can understand we shouldn't get listeners' hopes up. Best for them to be nicely surprised.

I could distinguish between the M22ti and the M5HP in a double blind listen test with a success rate of six sigma.

Nice on the bracket and the mid-range enclosure!

I bet you could the M22v4 vs M5HP as well. They are apples and oranges. Besides, you are a keen and picky listener. I look forward to you honest opinion once they arrive. I just hope you warn the first 3 rows they might get wet. Lol.

I bet the M22s die off once the M5s start rolling out.

We'll keep the M22s for Alan and TAM.

Just jokes guys. It's been a heck of a week.

But no really...Alan and TAM you are going to upgrade, no?

I'm annoyed I'm saving for other upgrades or I'd buy some. I have to make responsible decisions now so I can be completely irresponsible later. Lol.

Who all has ordered em so far? Everyone yet? Would be cool to hear Socketmans impressions vs his DIY version ahead of its time.

Can't you transfer some money from the food and clothing budget lines to the audio line?

Socketman's is similarly good.

No, I'm not going to replace my M22s as they pair so nicely with my EP800s - both visually & in sound quality. There would be no point. For some reason, numerous runs of Audyssey always 'heard' the -3db point of my M22s & VP160 at 40 Hz in my room - far lower than my QS8s at 80/90 Hz.

If I wanted (needed?) a new 2-CH System without using a sub, then the M5 would certainly be the way to go; however, my M3 2-CH System on the FMS stands in my living/dining room just wouldn't look right with M5s because of their bigger size. My other 2-CH System in the same area - tube driven M2s, each with its own EP400 - is simply unbeatable for music to me.

I'm totally happy with what I have now...

TAM

For one, I really don't need anymore speakers, 2. I really like building my own 3. Mine are sealed since they each sit on their own 8inch Yamaha sub and are eq'd by audyssy and then I use my Dspeaker Anti-Mode to EQ the bass. When I had this set up after building the speakers I was listening to some LP/s and my 24 yr old son came in the room and first thing he said was , I cant wait to have a stereo that sounds that good.

I am not speaker designer, I just used good drivers and good parts for the crossover and used a software program to design them along with a DATS to get the speaker specs and it happened to turn out really well imho.

And really , its as much the room as it is the speaker so it doesn't really matter what I think , only matters to whoever has them. You cant please all of the people all of the time Just ask Trudeau

Same goes for my engines, I like building my own since the final product is more important than how much cash I spend. I had a 12 second street car 20yrs ago based on my own ideas and it passed aircare.

You could advise your son that your DYI speakers are in your will to him.

Only then he will finally get the fine sound that he seeks, ha!

TAM

I am so broken up about what to do.

On one hand I love my M80v2 but on the other I am thinking about replacing them with the M5HP because I am anticipating it will be more accurate. The M5HP will also allow me to bring the speakers more into my room for serious listening sessions. But the M5HP certainly won't have the "fullness" of the M80.

I also struggle (less so) with upgrading my EP600v2 to the EP800. I want the deep, accurate bass of the EP800 but I also want mid-bass PUNCH! I don't know if I can get that out of the EP800. TAM convince me!

The only thing I don't struggle about is replacing my VP150v2 with the VP160 and my QS8v2 with the QS10HP.

P.S. Then I read Craig Chase's post of putting the EP350 into his 6500ft^3 space and actually being happy with the low end and the mid-bass slam. That really confuses the hell out of me!

Thanks.
I'd be able to push my screen back 1 foot, maybe 2.
I do love my towers though...
Whats yoir thoughts on the QS10 in my smallish room. I rarely use my subs anymore and like the new design, at least the idea.

It appears that your Axioms are all older versions but still OK in their own right. While the improvements & tweaking over the years are not hugely dramatic as far as changing the sound character is concerned, nevertheless their sound has been refined & made more smooth & accurate. I suggest that getting any of the latest V4 models will make you happy.

My twin EP800s are powerful & articulate (musical?) & operate effortlessly. Parts of my house do protest (sometimes annoyingly so) at times during most movies. I'm not much into 'slam nor punch' but my couches vibrate nicely even though I'm on a slab. It is there if you want to dial it in. Most movies I set at -15 to -10 Db Vol & I do not run them hot at all - there is just no need to...

TAM

So something like...
---------------------
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Non-resident Expert

To change signature, looks like you click "My Stuff" then "Edit Profile".

I also have a post where Craisub says to upgrade to the EP500 from my EP350 and I'll be in Nirvana bliss, So I did, Haven't recieved the EP500 but I am going on his word it is better. I had the M80v3 and sold to my son a few months ago and now run M22. I love this setup more than the M80 for movies. Not so much for music though. I am going to upgrade these M22 to the M5HP someday

I expect the EP500v4 to be significantly better than my EP600v2. It likely reaches within 1 or 2 Hz of my EP600v2 but is more linear since it is sealed. I too would expect it to be significantly better than the EP350.

Troy, your room is about 1200ft^3. I wouldn't doubt the EP500 reaching down to 17Hz in your room. The EP500 is going to rip your room apart!

Thanks Bridgman for the tips on editing my profile. Looks like it worked. See if you approve.

Perfect

OK, so I am home and now have a dilemma (and to be fair it's a good one).
I measured and the M5's will fit no problem, so ready to order. BUT then I also measured for the QS10 which I didn't think had a chance of fitting, but they will! I even have clearance from the budgeting committee. The problem is I can't do both. So which do you think would benefit my system more:
1)Front LCR of onwall M22/M2/M22 upgraded to all onwall M5's or
2)Replace 4xQS8 with all QS10
My HT room is fairly small and my 7.1 setup is probably overkill but I love it! So, the surrounds are not that far from seating position but they are at proper height.

Dan
My vote if it actually means anything is the LCR.
Not sure your room size but I am in the same delima with surrounds and Atmos or staying 7.2
They would be great but how much volume actually hits the rear that carries deep bass (deeper) that the subs don't handle. I think these would be better in a large movie room something 13- 15 ft wide and more.
Most of your action that you benedit comes from the front so I say make that the first point.

Yeh I am actually going duals.

Because you sit close to the QS8s, and surround is 1/4 of the total content, I would say you would get more benefit from upgrading the fronts. I on the other hand sit 12 feet away from each QS8 so I am anticipating the QS10s will make a big difference.

Dual EP500s in that room will be more than jaw dropping.

Ok so spent time and time and reviewing specs and looking and measuring the room and costs.
For my room 11.5 W I thinking I don't know. I am going to go with the 4 - M3 on walls. My argument is this. These are 5hz higher at 60hz. So my subs in rear which will eventually get there EP500 will probably negate the extra 5hz I get from the M5hp on wall. Specially if crossover is 80hz.
I am going with 4 M3's for the heights. I will be doing the ceiling as a drop ceiling anyways however, I will design it so the M3 are up in the recess part and will still be 7.5 ft from the front.
Just want to figure out if ATMOS is really worth the extra 2500$ . That's what four M3 and a MCA50 would cost me. Or would I really be better off with 9.4 just stay with the 7.4 and add front heights?

And finally for Ian or Alan or Mojo or Nick or whoever....




However, if like most our crossovers are usually set at 80 hz with the M22. Would not upgrading to the M5hp which reaches 20hz lower not be more better blending and managing if we can now set the crossover to 60hz. With the M5hp ?

Based on what my Audyssey is telling me about my M22s in my room - -3 Db at 40 Hz - I cross them at 60 Hz.

Just to be different I guess...

TAM

Tam , imho that is perfectly fine providing you do not hear any deficiency in the range. If you started to play things uber loud the driver excursion of the M22 may get exceeded. But I suspect that like me you don't play things at the insane levels we once did, just happens as your get older . Also, a crossover is not a brick wall , it is very gradual depending on if you choose a 12db or 24 db slope and the speaker is capable there will be a smooth transition between the sub and the main speaker. Honestly when I moved into my new house my system sounds so much better than it did in the old place which had a narrow and long living room open to the dining room. The room has such a huge effect on what we hear I often find it amazing that speaker designers can make a speaker that can sound so good in so many rooms. In the end the only thing that's important is that you are happy, and I consider myself lucky my hearing isn't what it used to be, I get happy much easier

Thanks Mojo, TroyD and all for the opinions and banter about these new speakers. Think I'll go with the front LCR switch.

Cheers,

I think you will be happy with that choice.

I cant believe I am saying this but I have to agree with Mojo Givin the fact that the LCR do the bulk of the work I firmly believe the QS8's are more than up to the task. Very little info comes to the surrounds in relation to the LCR. I upgraded to QS8's last year from QS4's and the change was so much greater than I could ever had anticipated,they are wonderful. I believe your choice has solid merit. Enjoy

Decision already made but +1 for LCR anyways. You could probably see a non-trivial improvement just from upgrading the center channel to an M5...

I'm thinking I'll get a single M5HP to replace my VP180 as center channel. It's pretty much what I've wanted for a vertical center.

Whoa! Really?

Lol

Mojo - I would more likely pair the M5's with the Lgeacy Signature SE's we have here and see how they fare with an $8000 speaker.

To make things "fair", I would cross both speakers at 60 Hz and use an EP-800 for the deep stuff, as the job would be to find out how well the M5's would compare above 60 Hz.

The Legacies are $7000 per pair and include dual 10 inch subwoofers.

Listening would be done level matched and blind, with instant A/B switching, using our pre-amp level unit.

And even then, there's no guarantee one would be "better". It's just an honest way to compare speakers.

Wow, really interested to hear how that comparison goes. I love vertical centers, but the VP-180 is a pretty serious horizontal center!

My order was just placed - the wait begins!

Craig, that sounds like too much fun. I'd like to be in on that!

What do you think about moving from M80v2 to M5HP for my 4800 ft^3 space? I would also upgrade my EP600v2, VP150v2 and QS8v2 to EP800, VP160 and QS10HP.

This would definitely be an interesting comparison, not necessarily for which is better but to see how the Axiom stacks up against a speaker 7 times its price. Is the sonic difference worth another 6G's if there is much of a difference at all. Something I would also like to see compared is the M5 compared to a Bryston Mini A .

Mojo - Your theater is almost identical in interior volume to ours. The upgrades would be solid - the center channel being the biggest jump.

I would get the HP version of the 160, and never look back.

The EP800 is something special. The linearity to 13 Hz is making issues in our room - we are getting rattling that no other subwoofer has caused.

In the fall, I took the M100's and EP800 to an ultra high end store. All they knew was the speakers were from the "Bryston family" (it's amazing how the audio stores are completely lacking knowledge of on line companies).

We did blind tests between a JL Audio Fathom 212 and the EP800, and everyone there preferred the 800.

The M100's did an admirable job against a pair of Magico S5's as well - with people finding a lot to like about both speakers. Considering the Magico's are over $30,000, it was quite an eye opener.

Back to your possible system - I think you would have a system that would be neutral and musical, with nothing jumping out at you. You will just hear ... music.

Yes, seriously thinking I should do it, but I won't be able to get in on the promo pricing.

Over the last two days, I've made small physical changes to my AV room that have resulted in BIG audio gains. I should have made these changes 10 years ago when I acquired my system. I really can't complain anymore about the sound quality which I always knew was due to my room and not my gear.

Nonetheless, I know from listening at Jakewash's place the VP160 blows my VP150v2 away. Given the 12 foot distance to my surrounds, I bet the QS10HPs would be a step up from my QS8v2. How big, I don't know until I try them. As for my EP600v2, I again have no doubt the sealed EP800 would add a dimension I can't imagine.

The only wild card here are the M5HPs against my M80v2. I have it on good authority the M5HPs will be more linear than my M80v2 and the cabinet will be stiffer than the M22Ti (which I have experience with). I suppose I could always buy them and return them if they don't best my M80s.

I prefer Axiom Expert Emeritus

M5HP just ordered I cannot wait to hear them.

Hi Mojo,

We have a model called an LFR1100 if you want to be sure to outperform your M80 v2s.

Hey Nochos, I like that! Maybe I'll change it---again.
Alan

Ian, I hate you and I hate Andrew for doing this to us. Just stop building innovative stuff will you?

What to do - upgrade M22's or QS8's......clock is ticking....

I would upgrade the M22s by trading in the QS8s. Then move the M22s where the QS8s are.

I unfortunately need to get rid of my Paradigm monitor 9's to make room in my bedroom, and I'm going to replace them with in-wall speakers. I'm considering the M5HP, but the Paradigm's SIG-ADP v.3 have really piques my interest. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with them. The design perplexes me.

Thanks

What does the SIG-ADP cost, Cam?

At 2grand EACH they better do more then just sound good!

Mojo probably could not handle sound that good. You are asking a lot of him.

I have no place to put them, but just couldn't resist so I pulled the trigger.

Now I think Ian should put one of those count-down timers on the home page; you know, minutes to first shipment.

Like.

Edit: Having heard the LFRs at the last Axiom gathering, if I were to buy another pair of speakers, it would be those. I don't think Mojo has the cajones though...

I now feel so inadequate without the LFR1100s.

Advertised at $2.000 each on Paradigm's website, bud.

You only live once, Cam. Buy them and install them around your wheelchair. While you're at it, stick a Paradigm Persona subwoofer under the chair and rock on!

Persona

holy crap did you see those costs Like $89,000
for an atmos system and one sub lol

Beryllium drivers...might as well be made of Unobtainium for that price.

Paradigm is out to lunch, have been for years. I used to sell them. Way overpriced.

Maybe so, but I'd love to sample the Sub2 sometime. The hexagonal design is intriguing and it looks way cool IMO. Pricey for sure, but it should have the grunt to match the price.
In other news (and on thread topic )I'm still waiting for the M5's to ship. How does time instantly slow down once you place an order for new toys? There's some science in there I tells ya!

There may be some waiting involved... I think I remember reading they ship in March. Until I saw that I had empty speaker stands waiting for them... now the M3's are back on the stands.

Yeah, it's March for shipping - I knew that when I pre-ordered - says it right on the product page. My point being time has been passing more slowly than usual ever since I ordered.

Its unfortunate but we are conditioned this way, not just you pretty much anyone I know. I signed up for information on pre order of new Oppo 4k bluray player, now that its available I cant afford it though I could just add it to my debt but I cant stop thinking about it, though in all honesty I don't need it. Damn

We crave instant gratification, and I think I like the feeling I get while I am waiting. Once the product is in the stand I am on to my next fix.

Very true

Is there an acoustic difference between Axiom's in-wall and on-wall speakers?

Thanks

The in-wall and on-wall share more similarities than differences. It is more about your installation choices. It is worth noting that the reason for this is that our in-wall speakers do not put the drivers behind the wall plane. We have done double blind testing of this and difference between 1/4" behind the wall plane and 1/4" in front of the wall plane is substantial.

Ian, Do you think 120watts per channel would be enough on the M5HP to gain the benefit of those HP drivers?

Thanks, Ian.

Cam

Does the inceiling M3 sit below as well?

I will be installing 4 Inceiling M3s soon (once I paint them) and from what I can tell the only thing below the drywall is the trim ring and mesh screen.

The in-ceiling does not sit below the ceiling plane but they are also not likely to be used as any of the front main speakers.

Just curious, thanks.

Now I'm imagining having a theater with an elevated bed as the single listening position, with the screen and main speakers on the ceiling.

I have to say I'd disappointed that there's no frequency graph yet.

And on a different note, my order doesn't show up in my account even though its been billed. Has anyone seen Ian boarding a plane to Tunisia? (It's possible I ordered it without using an account; but the romantic in me would like to think the M5 is a con and Ian's absconding to Africa or South America to start a white van speaker distribution center.)

Shipments appear in "My Account" once shipped or about to be shipped (typically when a tracking number is available)

What center would you pair with the m5hp's?

The VP160 would be best. Or the VP160HP if you are running your centre as large.

Or a 3rd M5 as vertical center if your space can manage it. That would technically be 'best'.

Actually, I am curious - I've read about and experimented with vertical centers and in my (very limited) experience have found it to sound great and better than my existing horizontal center. Therefore I have been running a vertical center and am continuing the tradition as I try out the new M5's once they ship.

However a question for Ian/Axiom - have you ever done double blinds on vertical centers? I'm curious if the logic and my personal (possibly biased) opinion actually pans out in true double blind testing?

It would definitely be the vp160 route, no way to get a vertical center under my flat screen with out it being ridiculously high...

Three identical front speakers is the best but generally not possible. An acoustically transparent screen is normally the only way to do this practically.

Any update on the frequency response graphs?

Yeah, yeah, stupid question.... but will the M5HP in-wall speakers work with a 2x4 stud framed wall? The specifications state they have a depth of 4.3", so I assume not.

Thanks

They are deeper than the M22's (89mm) 3.5"so it seems they are better suited to 2x6 construction, good catch.

The plan is to have them be able to work in a 2x4 stud wall with 1/2" or more wallboard.

I want to preorder a pair, but I definitely need them to fit in my wall. Are there spacers/filler pieces available for in-wall speakers?

I will take a look at the actual CAD drawing on Tuesday and see how it came out. How thick is the board on your wall?

It's 1/2", Ian. Thank you very much.

M8HP would be A KILLER .. i double dare Ian to put it together. I will buy
Steve
Coboconk

Thankfully this month is almost over the anticipation is growing.
Can't wait to try out my new QS10s!!!

Did you get a chance to look at the CAD drawing, Ian?

Thanks

I did, the depth required in the wall is 3 7/8" so it will work when we include your wall board thickness.

+1

(M5's for me!)
+1

So put that together and you have proof these will go to 11!

I like that they're always working n the next thing. Keeps me excited abut logging in. Lol.
But seriously who wouldn't want a triple driver sub?

How about 6?

Would it be a dice'n?

So...March 3rd.....I think we've been more than patient!
Have they shipped have they shipped have they shipped? I want my Axiom shipping notification!!!!

Seriously though, now that we are close I am really looking forward to reading the impressions on the M5's and QS10's.

Also would still like to see the FR curves posted.

Can't wait the anticipation is growing bigger and bigger.

Is there a certain size room the QS 10 is suited for .My room 18 x 18 x 7 .I have 2 QS8S. 2 QS4S that I would replace with QS10s .Also I have centre VP 150 and was looking to upgrade to the vp 160 or the 180 what would be the best option .

Thank you
Bob M

Bob, seems the VP160 gets a pretty solid vote around here for center channel. What are you using for left and right channels up front?

VP160 all the way! If you want omnis for surrounds, QS10s for sides and trade in your qs4 and QS8 for the 10s. You don't need rear speakers. I hear no difference between 5.1 and 7.1 in my space.

l second that, i went through all the trouble of running wires and hiding them and hanging my M2's and i dont miss them at all. It bugs me having them siting in the closet .

Well my plan is M80S or 100S depends on budget .My room is 18X 18 X 7 I would like to keep one set of QS8S would Q10S work on the back wall .I using a pair of Madison sound home put together speaks that are surprisingly very good .My goal is to add a bryston 3 channel am or the ADA 1450 .I should have purchased speakers in January when the prices were very good .Do the amps ever go on sale ?

Thank you
Bob M

The vp160 is good...just ummm Make some room for lol

Yes it looks bulky .

Will he v160 be ok with the ADA 1450
Bob M

The factory outlet has lower prices.

The ADA1250-3 channel will provide ample power for the front speakers and it will work great with the VP160.

Mojo are you meaning go to ,,Axiom?

Go to the following link.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/factoryoutlet

Click on the deals link at the top of the page. there is factory outlet , bstock and refurb.

And here for your M100s, M80s or VP160.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/deals/b-stock

I'm running my V.P.160 through a 3 channel ADA1250 with my M80s it's a great combo. Much deeper than with my A.V.R. alone. As all Axiom speakers are tested with many times the recommended ratings, I suspect you'd be fine with even the ADA1500.

It comes to more of a how far are the speakers from your spot and how loud do you like it to be.

I don't get to crank it when anyone's home though when I'm alone you bet.

Reference level quick clean and shower or meal after work all the way.:

Look...stop paralyzing yourself with analysis that you can't possibly comprehend and just buy something...mmmmmmkay?

The agonizing is the best part.

Yes you are correct I think and think drives my wife nuts .

Bob

Win Win

Choose your words wisely, my friend .

Poor Cam! It all started with you over-analyzing your Denon AVR 3801 receiver and the addition of a power amp.

Anyone receive their pre-order yet or get confirmation that its shipped? Figure its mid-March, and the product pages no longer say pre-order / shipping in March that maybe some have slipped out the door...

-pd

I've been wondering the same thing. Haven't heard a word.

I'm waiting to hear confirmation and ultimately user reviews before I potentially place my order.

I called in because I am waiting as well and I think next week or the following they will look to ship out.

The pre-order pricing just disappeared from the M5 page, so I imagine production will be starting pretty soon.

I notice the prerelease pricing earlier this week.

To cool now I'm getting more exited can't wait!!!

Production begins on Wednesday. We will be doing the bookshelf and on-wall versions of the M5HP and the QS10 first so we should see some shipping at the end of next week or the following Monday. The M5HP in-wall is still two more weeks out as we have not yet finished the injection tool for the cabinet and the stamping tool for the grille.

YAY, Three cheers for the Axiom fam.

Hip Hip Hooray.

Nice. I have taken the M3s off the stands in anticipation and swapped the M60v4s back in.

That said I ordered a custom finish so probably have a few extra weeks to wait.

I've decided to go with these as my entry into hifi audio. Can't wait!

Can someone confirm if in fact custom finish orders will take a few extra weeks?

A custom real wood finish needs to be custom machined then go through our paint booth which adds a few weeks. Custom orders we have now will be a bit faster than normal as all the machining is happening this week.

6 cents
I must add also that this website for a Internet based company needs to be updated with current product information. That should be one thing that is consistantly done. It is lacking, pictures of products 10 years old. YOu are selling v4 products and the EP500, EP600 subs still show v3 subs and it's been 2 years or more. The reviews Professional and reviewers are of Version 2 of most of the product lines. Time to get some new reviews done and get rid of the old like the old.
I am trying to sell this EP350 sub its 3 months old because I was about a month late in the return. Time goes fast on trial, but I tell the potential buyers go to the website for tech specs and reviews and they say it's all old new even the pictures

Since the launch of the new website we have a pile of things to fix and update. There is a priority list that is being worked through every day.

Sorry, Ian that came off all wrong.
I'm just saying there's alot of out dated reviews and pictures etc.
I do not mean to be demanding or you should do this or that. I just refer everyone who inquires to the website for info. Actually when friends ask about speakers I say Axiom.
It is my fault I fell asleep at the wheel when it was time to return the sub. 30 days goes by real fast.

However, I do think for the higher line of speakers, specially real wood, you should have a better quality input selector

I'm the guy that asked Axiom to stop advertising the LFR DSP boxes as having a 12v trigger. I also questioned why the M100's had the same weight specification as my LFR1100's. That changed too. For a web based business it seems like a lot of lack of attention. On the forum I've been told my rear array has an impedance of 8 ohms. The product page says 4 ohms. Can I get a definitive answer on this? I also find it funny that the LFR1100 product page has a useless standard or high powered selection. And of course there are only 2 ports on the back of a LFR1100, not 3 as advertised.

The in ceiling M3s have no mention of aimable tweeter or manual.

BTW Axiom's website is far from bad. We research and spec out products/systems based on other larger brand's websites. Often the links in their pages are broken or product info is incomplete or outdated. This is where finding user feedback is very helpful. The forum is valuable for this.

In a perfect world a full time social media person would also be highly versed in audio and Axiom's product line. If I was Axiom I would reach out to a certain longtime, helpful, knowledgable forum member as an example.

Try finding any meaningful information on a tv manufacturer's website, like whether its hdmi 2.0a etc and AVR's are no better. You can find any decent specs like what is the line level output on the preouts. Its just plain lazy, there are plenty of people who want and understand these specs.

Looking for advice on placement 2 PAIRS OF QS8S .Presently one pair is 3 feet above my head and 5 feet apart on the back wall above the couch.Second pair same height as back speakers 3 feet in front .Just wondering if this is the best spot.7 ft ceilings .

RJ

It sounds right. The one piece of advice I'll give you about QS8s is don't trust the receiver calibration. Turn up their level until it sounds right to you.

Great thank you .Yes I need to check again just replace 2 pairs of QS4S .Hoping to replace my VP 150 with VP 160 AND A PAIR OF M80S .


RJ

Good choice on both of those models!

True, however tv manu. and Axiom speakers ..... one is I can go to most any Best Buy or electronics store and for the most part get upto date information. Most part as most will go to the website anyways. But,they also have paper information etc. However, Axiom is 100% internet based and the only way to get up to date info ..... and for the " LOve" of Axiom is on the website.
This is there main medium of advertisement and information, spec etc this should be the most updated. I know, you can pick up a phone and dial 1 - 800 but, how many get to the point, they look on the site and say of look at that it's got ports and click their gone , or old specs/pics. and I hate the look of those cheap $3 plastic inputs on $2000 speakers. Hell get qaulity looking ones and charge an extra $20 nobody will notice the price $2000 or $2020 . They will notice the outside first and see quality finish, quality speakers and a quality input. It takes just one piece that looks cheap for people to think, ok the whole thing is cheap.

$2,000 speakers? I think those same, cheap-looking speaker terminals are used on the $10,000 Bryston Model T.

Why spend money improving the aesthetics of a component that is infrequently handled let alone seen?

I am curious about these input comments. Are we suggesting it would be better to have the binding posts mounted to a metal plate, have them sticking straight out, and change the colour to clear with a hint of red and black somewhere?

My comment was to confirm I prefer the ones used previously (v2 and early v3) to the black and red ones used in my last purchase.
I recognize it won't effect anything but the first time I saw them it did feel like a step backwards, a lesser quality product on an otherwise upgraded product.It is petty but it was noteworthy.
FWIW I wish the posts on my receiver were as good as those on my speakers.

I think you are referring to the move from clear plastic with a little ring showing the red and black to full out red and black plastic. We did this to make the positive and negative much easier to see as a lot of times this connection is getting made while hanging over the top or side of the speaker and with poor lighting back there. Having one speaker out of phase makes things sound ugly so anything to avoid that happening is a good thing.

Yes brwsaw I agree. The current ones just look cheap, like we would find on Yamaha or Sony speakers.
I like these in the link.
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/437722779.html

As for some comments, no aesthetic's do not mean better sound etc, I just think once you take a nice M80HP or 60HG or the M100 your top line of product a better input terminal or even option goes a long way. Details, details. Little things. Some people would look at that and think well that looks real cheap, loose winding plastic nuts what else was cost cut on the inside. It's like putting a Porsche shell on a VW Beetle motor and frame.

I think even if flush mounted for the HP and LFR series.
Standard speaker line well standard input
I like the way the back of the Image T3s are

Even Energy Speakers have a better input
http://www.energy-speakers.com/images/common/V-6-3-T/addl/V-6-3-T_18.jpg

If this the case then I find taht looking over the top of the VP180, now the VP160 it is hard to see the input terminals becasue they are embedded.
I have to lift the speaker up so I can see. That said red is on the left side looking at the speaker.

I find this all very curious. Perhaps we need a poll. In my opinion; it is one thing to change something to make it look better, but to change it to make it look better at the expense of its function is another. Also, considering it is located on the rear of the speaker where it is generally not seen after the initial hook up means we changed something to make it look better, while we sacrificed its function, and no one sees it anyway. We would be sacrificing its function in four ways:

1. Harder to tell the positive from the negative.

2. The metal plate increases the chance of a shorting both during hook-up and after if there are stray stands.

3. Having the binding posts sticking straight out means banana plug connections stick way out.

4. The risk of damage during shipping goes up.

I am not disagreeing that it would look better with a metal plate and clear nuts, I think it would and that makes it important to consider. But reducing performance or functionality for aesthetics has not been the Axiom way and I am leery about changing that philosophy.

I am going to weigh in here. The clear knobs with the red and black bands piss me off. I look back there, cant see which terminal is which. I have to go look for my flashlight which i cant find till i find my glass's. While looking for my glass's i find my coffee i put down while watering the plants, which is now cold. I have to go to the microwave warm up my coffee,by this time i forgot why i was out here to begin with or what i was looking for. I go back to my theater realize i need a flashlight so i can connect my speakers and the whole thing starts over. So just make the knobs red and black so i can see them.

If this is a daily ritual, I can see how the clear terminals would piss you off.

It is a daily ritual for me, at least some days... thanks for the setup

... and I think I prefer the new red/black to the older clear ones. I just finished putting the M3's back on the stands (I had them inverted on top of the M60s) and went back to M60s again.

Then again I don't believe I felt the clear ones looked particularly "sharp". I'll go and do a walkabout (I have a pretty good sampling across 10+ years of Axiom product) and confirm that.

I wouldn't make any changes that made things worse. Do no harm...
The color change was a bit of a shock but it really is a non issue. I just liked the feel of the clear ones.
Maybe it was the combined detail of the rings, gold, etc. The solid colors kind of remove that from a first impression.

hmmmmmm
Yeah point on the metal plate and shorting the connection.
How about flush mount though on the high end line
Point taken on the sticking out also, it would make it 2"
However if they were counter sunk and straight, not on a angle
they would protrude a bit more that one can see peaking around and not moving the speakers.
I like the look of the clear ones however, maybe more depth of the red/black ends 1/8" thick on the end.

oh and if the Black or red markings were on the ends and not up towards the from for the nut it would be easier to see

Personally I'm not too concerned over the plastic binders as I use on-walls so they are completely hidden anyway. However it is a nice feeling see the gold connectors inside the clear plastic for a feeling of quality when you do the initial hookup. I'll maybe have more of an opinion when the M5HP's arrive.

Speaking of which, are there any updates on what's shipping from Axiom now between the M5's and QS10's? I'm still anxiously awaiting my shipping email and doing my best to be patient!!!!!

Not one word, and there's only three days left in March. Hmmm...

Mine are custom finish so I'm not expecting them until some time in April. I'm going to be out at Boomershoot! in the second half of April so maybe I should ask the nice Axiom folks to hold onto them until I get back...

Received my Zone AMP + M3's yesterday. When the driver showed up I thought I was getting some M5HPs and/or QS10's as well but nope . I was told that shipping for the M5 and QS10 is expected to start this week (Today/Wednesday).

The newer M3's are a bit different from my old v2 version ones. I see what you all have been talking about now about the clear connector vs the red/black ones for the speaker wires. Also, I didn't know that the newer speakers have magnetic grills my old ones didn't . Having both an old v2 and the new M3 side by side I think the red/black is quicker to hook up at a glance by having the color front in center instead of a ring lower down on the connector.

Some days I think it's worth updating to v4 just to get the magnetic grills. I smile every time I remove or replace them.

BTW I think at least one of my Axiom pairs has the clear binding posts but I haven't found them yet.

So far the oldest ones have solid brass with a thin red/black ring, which looks sharp but I remember being a pain to hook up because I was usually looking end-on when plugging cables in and that was the one angle that did *not* allow you to see red/black. Ended up resorting to "red right returning" or some such thing.

Easy Red = Right side
also move the red ring from the back to the front.

I just think they look cheesy/cheap. If for only the HP line they should be better quality. And flush mount.

And another thing 6 screws to hold the drivers
6 for the 6.5" drivers and
5 screws for the 5.5"
I know I am getting picky lol but, just think little things details go along way.
Somethings to say oh yeh thats the HP line look better input terminals, 5/6 screws.

Isn't the 4 screws that are currently used for the drivers ample.
Less to worry about coming loose and re tightening.

Though I've only had V.4 Axioms and the Qs10 will be my first H.P. version. The bold colours of the connectors seem fine and as others have said less chance of misconnecting and being out of phase or worse shorting?

I know i already spoke on this but i think ian realizes that some of us are getting older and focusing close up is a real bitch. I know people that have had 20/20 vision all their life and have now hit their 50's and have to wear reading glass's. I say make em florescent.

Listening to vinyl makes one deaf and blind.

10 years from now the speakers will have a big fresnel lens with LED illumination mounted over the binding posts. And maybe another one over the Axiom logo.

Sorry, for making some suggestions

Just thought somethings a little different make the High end line stand out above the Standard line.

I guess we can all go back to the plain Hyundai accents.'


I'll not make any more ridiculous suggestions again

You raised a fair point; don't worry about the dumb comments from people like me, we're going to make them anyways.

Key point seems to be that making them better looking would be great but that it's also important to maintain decent visibility of the polarity colour coding.

the pot was boiling you just lifted the lid

We lost a few days in the crossover production due to some missing parts. That has been rectified and production is happening right now.

Having just introduced my son to Wayne's World the other night I will simply say, Schwing!!!!

Thanks for the update Ian.

Cheers and audio bliss to all,

Do I spy a vertical cross-brace?

Thanks for the update, Ian. I've been a customer since way back when, and it just seemed unlike you guys not to have heard anything. Hoping for wonderful things from my QS10's.

Here is a look at the guts:

THAT is sweet!

It sounds fantastic, right?

TIGHT TIGHT TIGHT!

oh yah!

Hell yeah, baby!

We need a video of the full assembly process, start to finish.

I'd like to know the factors that led to the window brace.

Whiny customers like us were asking for it

Ian, thanks for the pics and congrats on getting the M5 into production.

Yeah, but I'm sure the decision was backed up by good science. I'd like to know what that science was.

Happiness glad to see our pre orders, keeping the production busy.
Can't wait to experience and see the reviews to come..

The refurb store will fill up with M22s and M3s! I suppose Alan will buy them all since he's so in love with them.

I'd like a pair of each...

I dont know much about speaker design, but I do know adding bracing is a more efficient way of reducing panel resonances than adding material thickness.

I'm pretty sure that's would be the reason behind the braces.
If you peek at the youtube vids of Andrew from Axioms and Bryston's production ventures there's a bit more insight into the designs.

The goal with bracing is to keep any cabinet resonances well below the audible noise floor; which we become more sensitive to as the frequency goes up, peaking at around 10k.

The QS10 is moving along now too.

Excellent! I cannot wait to get my hands on these m5hp's.

Awesome, keep the drip feed going Ian! It's helping with the wait.
However once the new speakers arrive several people may be absent from the forums for awhile...

Ok

I'm just saying for a top of the line product a little more goes along way.
And if those wing nuts, just move the ring from the front to the end. As most pointed out, it's not like they need change them every week. The inputs now look so cheap, there floppy and loose.
You don't see Porsche going to GM for door handles, or a paint job. Or Rolls Royce going to China for a cheap chrome plated Phantom or Angel thing.
I think even flush mounted and better wing nuts. I hate trying to get my wire in the darn holes underneath also.
Which is one reason why I said straight out. Also, now I got banana plugs on the back it is easier, but if the went straight out without counter sunk then this whole I can't see the red ( Right side ).
I just mentioned 5 or 6 screws because it looks more detail into the product top line.
Heck I'd even come up with a fancy logo ..... Axiom HP .... that silk screened on instead of glued on;) I think they even need a new name for the top of the line like the did with the Vesallo.

That's all folks ........

Actually if I can find interchangeable nuts I will, even a input plate

I am surprised to see the QS10 isn't a one-piece assembly. It looks like the top and bottom are separate pieces.

I now see the M5HP is of the same design.

For the QS10 those dividers are keeping the 6.5" air space separated from each of the top and bottom 5.25" air spaces.

These are going to sound AMAZING! I don't even need to hear them to know that.

1st order Butterworth for the lower x-over and 2nd order Linkwitz-Riley for the upper x-over?

Maybe, but I'm losing confidence given the glaring absence of a freq/resp graph.

I know my ear will be the primary determining factor and I'm still anxiously waiting for mine to come; but when I push Axiom on other forums I usually wind up pointing to their response graph. Being the first speaker without one at this late date is worrisome.

I hear ya Cork. We've pinged about the FR graph awhile back, and given these are now in production you'd think it would be posted.
Also 'shipping in March' has turned into at least April. Not bashing, but just expressing concern & waiting angst.
I've had nothing but great experience so far with Axiom and am inclined to believe this will continue with the M5HP's.

A frequency response graph really tells you nothing.

I got my tracking numbers for the M5 today. Should be arriving on the 11th.

Awesome news Chris! Thanks for the update. Looking forward to comparing notes on impressions.

Cheers,

Received shipping notification for m5 with a 11th delivery as well.

Received my tracking yesterday.

Ian,

Are the in-wall M5's ready to ship?

Thanks,

Cam

Come on QS10s.

Arg the anticipation of joy.

Looks like mine will be in today!

Dang, I take it you have the standard bookshelf inbound? I have not seen tracking, but in my case I ordered 3 on-walls so perhaps they have not shipped.

-pd

I also ordered the on-walls. Debbie (Axiom) will send you shipping notification with tracking info as soon as they ship. I've not received my notification email yet either. I only refresh my inbox every 3 minutes or so showing great patience.
I'd checked earlier in March and Debbie said they were on track for March shipping, but then Ian updated with the slight delay in the forums, so it looks like they slipped into April. However the notifications are going out, so should be any minute now! Wait for it....refresh....wait for it....refresh

Cheers,

Someone at FedEx really had their foot down. Initial estimate put them at Tuesday, but I received my M5HPs today. I'll put them through their paces this weekend.

I'm planning on doing the same.

Just received my M5 as well. First thing I noticed is they don't fit the FMS stands . They will probably need a different base to fit. Sound good so far.

Hi flashtro, Ian commented about the FMS stands earlier in this thread (page 4 in my browser):


Cheers,

These are noticeably wider than the M22 speakers. Very early in testing but the midbass is a noticeable upgrade and these are more power hungry than the m22.

The graphs are online....

We knew when the product page was first up that the M5HPs were going to need almost twice the power of M22s to reach the same SPL.

Initial impressions? Are they the new boss bookshelf?

Can't you tell from the photos, the frequency response plot and the impedance curve?

Lol. Nope. Good for a stink check though.

The curves look textbook. The impedance curve suggests once your amp runs out of gas there will be screaming treble and no bass. Use a ballsy amp if you listen loud.

Hi Serenity_Now,

I couldn't agree more. Regardless of the impedance curve, once your amp runs out of gas you will get the distortion of amp clipping meaning it is time to turn it down or get a bigger amp with good dynamic headroom. After speakers with problems in their family of curves I would say this is the biggest reason for bad audio.

Listened to the M5HP quite a bit over the weekend with some music and a few movies. They definitely sound a bit better to my ears than the M22 they replaced. But with that said, the M22's still sound fantastic. They also seem like they could take more power than I'm feeding them easily without issue. One thing I noticed is if I turn my receiver up as loud as it will go with the M22's I start to hear some distortion and harshness that make me want to turn the volume down, for whatever reason I didn't hear the harshness from the M5HPs. I can't quite put my finger on what exactly is happening but my VP150 also sound better now with blending with the M5HP not sure why voices sound clearer in movies but it may just be in my head.


Are the replacement tops for the FMS stands to fit the M5's available? I couldn't find them listed on the website anywhere. The current base on my FMS stands are too small to fit so currently using some DR PRo monitor stands.

I'm not experiencing the needing 2x power to reach the same sound volumes levels (in perceptions as least) as the M22 but maybe Im just not using amps in that high of a range or playing at volume levels where that would be the case in my normal usage of playing music and movies it seems just about as loud as the M22's except when maxing the volume out .... the M22's sound perceptively louder but I think it may be mostly the added distortion/harshness that I'm hearing with the M22's at max that I don't hear as much of with the M5HP's at max. I'll need to test it with a SPL meter to see if that's the case or not. Also, I don't have a particularly powerful amp/receiver.

I have never been able to max the volume with any of my Axiom speakers (M2s, M3s, & M22s). They all get stupidly loud in my rooms well before they get to max.

If you are getting distortion, you are probably driving your amps into clipping. That is not good for your speakers...

TAM

I'm giving the m5hp's about 120 to 140watts per side from my receiver and my initial thought on this is it's not enough. With that type of power the M22's got super loud. I'm experiencing more sibilance or harshness at louder volumes with the m5hp and i think it's because the watts I am giving them isn't enough. I need more testing time. I did not have the time I wanted to this weekend.

Me thinks the watts you are giving them are not clean. There is no way you can give them 120 to 140 clean watts from a receiver. Absolutely no way!

The M22s are easier to drive. Do you have the speakers crossed over to a sub?

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr7008-av-receiver-test-bench#b4C1MIjP0jUFIuAi.97

Yes, my speakers are crossed at 90hz.90 down going to a fathom f113.

What a behemoth!

If you are driving only 2 channels, then it could be the music you are feeding the speakers contains distortion that is revealed by the M5HP but not the M22 or your receiver is pooched or Axiom messed up the M5HP.

If you are cranking up the power to 120 to 140 W, your receiver is running out of headroom. At 120W, you have less than 3dB of headroom. I can't find any photos of the capacitors to judge how much headroom the receiver may have but it's pretty crowded in that chassis and I am sure there isn't much capacitance.

Take a look at the capacitor bank in the ADA-1500 and you will see what I mean. Or one of the Bryston power amps.

http://bryston.com/images/products/28B3/L_4.jpg

Maybe you can retrofit one of these cap banks into your audio system

http://scott-eng.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/poleline-gallery-06.jpg

I made more progress last night. I reviewed all configuration and even though I had audyssey turned off the front and left channels were set as -7db and -6.5db. I reset the entire receiver and I am in much better state now. These speakers are amazing and the receiver gives me enough power and regular listening volumes but I am still seriously considering giving them more for them to reach their full potential in the future. My axiom m80 v4's are running from an external amp now so I know there are differences giving speakers more watts and dynamic headroom.

Nice to hear. Interested to know your thoughts on M22 vs these as I'll be making the same switch once I receive mine.

Wonder how Chris made out over the weekend with his.

Shipping notification any day now, right Axiom?

9:27 AM - spiroh posts "but I am still seriously considering giving them more for them to reach their full potential in the future. My axiom m80 v4's are running from an external amp now"

9:28 AM - M5HPs are sitting upside-down on top of no-longer-connected M80s and are enjoying the external amp

Spiroh, I was ready to trade in my M80v2 for the M5HP. I would be interested in your thoughts between the two.

LOL. That will be my next step but I have to unmount the M5HP and get them moved over to the other location. I promise I will do that soon.

I think the 'stupid loud' you hear IS distortion. I did a test with a 100 watt per channel receiver connected to my M3's vs a powered 210 watt per channel monitor speaker. My hearing perceptions were that the M3's sounded louder with less power but did not sound bad at all. However, putting them up on a Sound pressure level the monitor speaker pair tested higher even though my perception was they were quieter but I think it was due to it having so much more power it was not distorting and I think my ears at least interprets distortion that is not horrible as being louder.

So I set up the M5HP, M22v4 and my Axiom m80 v4 to my Marantz 8802A pre/pro out to the D-Sonic M3-4000 amp. I used pure direct mode and turned off my sub on the pre/pro. I played 6-7 songs I use for sound quality testing. As far as sound signature I really cannot tell much of a difference which I am not surprised about. Keep in mind my M80 and M22 are v4 and not the older versions. When I upgraded from the m80ti and the M22v3 I did notice subtle differences to the v4 versions. The m22's are a lot more efficient than the other 2 and also lack the low bass of the others. For a bookshelf speaker the M5HP has nice impressive bass coming out of it. After making the adjustments to the receiver I am mostly getting enough output where I think I can get by without getting an external amp for the office but we'll see. The M5hp's will be staying in the office and the M22 re-purposed for something else. The m80's will be staying in the theater room. I am very pleased with these speakers.

Dang... and still no love for the on-wall orders...

-pd

Just something more to add as I am doing more testing, the extra bass I am getting on the M5HP over the M22 is making it a more complete speaker. I'm really digging these now! I think the receiver settings were for sure holding me back.

Would you trade the M80s for the M5HPs? Do the M5HPs give you a better experience than the M80s?

Mojo, I don't know about that one. One is a full tower speaker and the other a bookshelf. I definitely would not replace my m80 v4's for the M5HP's for my theater room in my situation. They sound very similar and I think the M80's probably have even more bass than the M5HP. The M5HP has one 6.5HP driver but the m80 has 2 standard 6.5 drivers. I think the surface area of the M80 will beat it here. Both are excellent but I do like the version 4 axiom speakers a little better than the previous models. I did not compare the v2 but I did the ti and v3 editions.

I have a feeling the M5HP is an upgrade over my M80v2 particularly since I am now taking full advantage of the family of curves (I am in a 4800 ft^3 reflective room in the far field). I use a sub (EP600v2) as well. Maybe I will never know.

I'd be curious to know after some extended listening to the M5HP if you find yourself wanting to swap out the M22 for M5HP in your other space. I listened to the M22ti and couldn't stand it. I know you have the M22v4.

Final compare from me regarding these. Last night I spent 2 hours or so and I was switching between the M22 and the M5HP in the office, only using receiver power. Take this only as my thoughts on this since I am no expert. The midrange imo is a tiny bit better than the M22 bookshelves. The bass is also better giving me more options with the sub integration. I had the M22's highpass set at 90hz with these I can go down to 70hz easily if needed. Is there a huge difference between both sets? No, but it's enough of a difference for me and they are staying in the office and I will not be pursuing external amps. I'm extremely happy with this set. Love them.

Thanks for the comparison thoughts Spiroh.

Spiroh, would you recommend folks spend the extra money to buy the M5HPs over the M22s?

Personally, yes I would if you have over 100w to give. This is not a knock on the M22's though since they are amazing and I've had v3 and v4 versions. I just think with the added bass the M5HP's are a little more complete.

I got mine today and wasted no time getting them hooked up. The short of it is - I like them a lot! I clearly hear fuller mids and more low end as compared to my M22s, and the difference is not subtle. I'd like to compare them directly against the M3s too, but my son absconded with those. Going only on memory, I'd say the M5s are big league M3s.

Being use to the M22 I went back and forth whether I liked the M5 more or not, but I'm now nearly convinced I will given more than 90 minutes play time. My only hesitation is I only got to compare them on blues, rock, and jazz before the network adapter on my receiver crapped out. I would have liked to compare them using classical too, where the flatness of the M22s might win the day (but I'm way too lazy to go dig out the CDs).

The side by side was done in my 13'x14' "music room", but the M5s are targeted for my home theater room where I think they'll be ideal. I ran them at 100, 80, 60, and 40hz, with and without a sub. While they get low, I don't think you'd want to use them without a sub. At this point I'm going to keep the crossover at 80hz, but getting a much richer sound at that point.

Also, I had no problem with volume using a Yamaha RX-V671 receiver (so nothing out of the ordinary). I did have to crank it a little more to get to 87db, but still had amp capacity when I stopped. Of course, this was still in that 13'x14' room; a larger room might be enough to trip over into dedicated amp teritory; we'll see when I put them in the 14'x22' theater room (which has a similar RX-V673 Yamaha).

Hadn't had a chance to share my initial thoughts until now.

The first thing I noticed is that the highs of the M5HPv4 sounded better than the M22v3s. I don't mean more clear, but a better, continuous sound stage. I listened carefully to make sure it wasn't just more diffuse, with some panning sounds, and they still track beautifully. The v4 tweeters are worth it, and as soon as I get a chance I'm going to call to see about upgrading my old VP150v2 for a new '160.

The next thing I noticed, is they were not as loud as the M22s, and the VP150 was over powering them on multi-channel audio. So I went and adjusted the trim levels. The M22s were at -5.5dB. The M5HPs needed to be brought up to -0.5dB to equal the -0dB level of the VP150.

That sorted I tried some louder music playback. Some real bass heavy stuff that was lacking on the M22s. The M5HPs definitely go lower, and even if they don't have much output at 10 Hz, they don't complain when attempting it.

"The M5HPs definitely go lower, and even if they don't have much output at 10 Hz, they don't complain when attempting it."

This is exactly where I have a problem with my Dreamcatchers. Even though I have them crossed over to my sub at 80Hz, if I play too loud, they bottom out.

While the M22ti and the M3ti don't bottom out, they just don't sound good. The M5HP, with the v4 tweeter, the mid-range and the HP driver, high quality cross-over, improved knowledge about the family of curves and improved enclosure design I am sure fixes all the problems I heard with the M3ti and M22ti.

Yeah there's no replacement for a subwoofer even with these but in Pure Mode (no sub) these bump pretty good. They shake the logos from the speaker grill and even my desk. I am just so extremely happy with these speakers.

I agree with you regarding the M5's tweeter sounding better. But I don't think it's just the v4 aspect; I think it's also the fact that they're crossing them over at 2.2 kHz instead of the 3.5. I think that is tending to smooth out the high end.

Likely right. Probably somewhere around the legacy cross-over point, the mid-range stops acting as a piston and starts to flex.

Originally posted the above post on the 6th, but unfortunately didn't get a reply. Hopefully someone will see this and respond.

Thanks

We are shipping QS10s and M5HP on-walls this week. If all the final tooling detail goes well then M5HP in-walls will be the week after.

Coolness can't wait to try the new Q. Suspense!!!

I don't know why anyone still uses pure modes, and direct modes, it makes every speaker sound the same and sound like @#$@$ - especially on a receiver. Turn that off, crank that bass and see what these puppies can do!

...and yes I've been away for a while, life is full or surprises.

Any on-wall folks get tracking numbers yet?

-pd

None for me. Still 2 days left on the week. Fingers crossed.

Hi all. Not a regular on this board but thought I'd just mention that I got the tracking info for my real wood finish M5s. If anyone is curious what they look like in natural maple (semi-gloss) I can post pics when they arrive.

Of course more important is what they'll sound like. Thinking about what I'll be queuing up

I've recently been listening to ambient piano works like those of Harold Budd's. Harold Budd and Cocteau Twins' The Moon and the Melodies is a great album. Ulver's, and Dead Can Dance's catalogs but mostly the really lush albums like Shadows of the Sun and Dead Can Dance's most recent. Jazz of course is always good to audition speakers on. One of the liveliest albums I know, with incredible dynamics, good for auditioning, is John Zorn's Naked City. Some old school progressive rock perhaps, Gentle Giant and King Crimson (just their debut album, nothing after that).

What have you all who have received yours been listening to?

Welcome to the family. What are your current speakers and yes to pics we all love pics here ?

Basia
Drunk on love nice jazz bass riffs
also on London, Warsaw, New York ..... Ordinary People
thnen some Selena for deep bass
Chain Smokers couple songs for tight punchy bass

Since I moved I only have a pair of desktop speakers (Audioengine A2), a pair of Grado headphones (SR325e paired with an entry level tube amp and DAC combo), and for on the go listening yuin pk2s.

In my basement collecting dust are my old nothing to write home about JBL Northridge series bookshelfs and center that at one point I had hooked up with a surprisingly capable (given the price) Atlantic Technology sub for home theatre use. Properly calibrated this setup did movies quite well, again, for the price. But I'm far more critical when it comes to music, and these did not do anything for music.

I'm thinking of getting a pair of M5s for a 2.1 system using a 5 watt per channel SET tube amp. I see they are rated at 90db in room and 86db anechoic. I have a pair of M3s (rated at 92db in room, and 88db anechoic) which are a terrific match for the 5 wpc amp.

Ian, do you think the M5s would be a good match for a SET 5 wpc tube amp?

I think it should work but the best way to know would be to try it. It would be really helpful for us if you gave it a go as we would then have the answer the next time the question comes up.

Hi Ian, any updates on shipping of M5 on & in walls and QS10's? I didn't hear any action on that last week.

Cheers,

2x6, if you are field testing these for Axiom and providing detailed data, make sure you get a discount! LOL

Ha! Ian's post made me smile and yours made me laugh.

I'd be glad to field test the M5s, but I don't think I am capable of producing detailed data. My only test instruments are two aging ears connected to a brain, heart and soul.

That's the thing about music, it reaches and arouses all of our most human faculties.

Yes, I feel that irresistible impulse rising and when I am unable to resist, I will give Ian a call and report to you all!

Phil, does your SET tube amp employ negative feedback?

If I lick my fingers and touch the glowing fire bottles, will that give me a hint as to whether my SET employs negative feedback?

Yes.

"The circuit has negative feedback, and you can see it in the schematic, where connections from the secondary winding of the output transformer go back to the input. The use of negative feedback may be responsible for the rising frequency response. We have talked about negative feedback on many occasions, and this circuit is an easy way to show what it looks like."

I think your tongue would prove to be a better indicator.

Yes, Dr. Emilio Lazardo, from the 9th dimension, taught me that trick. "Lick the output transformer," he said.

Then the output impedance of the amp will be acceptably low across the entire frequency range and the amp's output voltage will be well-controlled. This is a good thing. It means the amplitude response of the connected speakers won't be affected by your amp.

It tastes so much better when stoned.

HA!

Received my M5s earlier than expected

A little dinged up however (one corner on each, and the cover plate for one of the tweeters shifted in shipment and probably caused the dome to cave in.

As promised though, some pics below. And I'll post my impressions on the sound shortly, but initial thoughts are that I'll need something better to drive them, haha. Not that my entry level Harman Kardon can't at all. Some tracks certainly shined.

Those look excellent

I'm looking to get a vintage adcom 5800 and use my existing receiver as the pre pro. Thoughts on how that might work would be much appreciated.

Main concern with something like that adcom is fan noise.

I had my M80s connected to an old Crest Audio VS900 was fantastic
though the fan was annoying it will raise your noise floor quite a bit though it should be great. and once you turn it up the fan can disappear for a while.

Have since moved to one of the ADA amps so no longer an issue for me. But I didn't mind the fan noise so much.

You could remote locate your gear. Cleans everything up and leaves zero noise floor from case fans, hard drives, transformers etc. Once your gear is remote located you can add ups filtering/protection to your investment. When you go seperates my advice is to plan long term and consider expansion, cooling and protection. This means a gear closet or rack with active cooling. Not too daunting or pricey once you look into it. DIY all the way.

Wow those M5's really do look nice in that finish Dawid.
My on-wall M5's just arrived yesterday. I've only unboxed one so far just to see it. Looks great, exactly what I was expecting, matches my previous black oak on wall M22's just fine. Have not had time to hook them up yet, will do that over the weekend and post back next week. The power bracket looks a bit fiddly to get a solid speaker wire connection - does anyone have any tips or tricks with that??
I'm sure that'll work itself out quick enough. I do like the cloth bag they come in now.

Blind AB testing will not be possible, however I'll do my best to give a level unbiased opinion vs the I/O M22's I have in place now. And there will be pics :-)

Cheers,

Just came back from vacation (drove to Idaho for Boomershoot); M5HP's were waiting for me in the driveway. It was about 2am when I got home so only had a chance to listen for a few minutes so far but first impressions are *really* good.

The speakers are much larger than typical Axiom bookshelf speakers, which is good to see. Not saying that all of the Axiom bookshelf speakers should be larger, but it's nice to see at least one seriously big bookshelf. I always felt that was a hole in the product line.

Bass extension seems decent and smooth; enough for any of the tracks I played and I was picking tracks with deep bass. The speakers definitely like power - with a (200 WPC into 8 ohms) Adcom 555 amp I was running close to clipping levels and the sound was both "sufficiently loud" and very clear.

Not sure what the right words are to describe what I heard, but in the very good systems I have really liked in the past there was a combination of tightness, flatness and ability to handle power/volume which somehow resulted in a slightly different sound from what you heard on lesser systems. I heard that on the M5HPs and was really happy about it.

Will post some pics over the weekend and do some speaker swapping to confirm what I think I am hearing.

Welcome home bridgman, hope blowing stuff up was as fun as it sounds and you still have all of your appendages! :-)

I couldn't resist and took a slightly extended lunch break working from home office today and messed around with my one unboxed M5 OnWall for center channel only. I mostly ran some calibration pink noise & signal sweeps to get a feel for it. Quite impressed so far. Was surprised to find my previous calibration levels still held and it was level matched at the same offset to my in/on wall M22's. I was expecting I'd have to bump it up a few db.
Also learned my dog likes to howl along with pink noise and signal sweeps! LOL.
The M5 On wall does extend lower than my M22's as expected, although they are surprisingly not far behind. I demo'd a short Wall-E scene from Disney WOW disc (track 9 in the Experience section for those with the disc) and the punch from Eve's blaster arm made me jump the 1st time I had it cranked. So far so good. Can't wait to get all 3 pumping up front. More to come when life and wife permits...

Cheers,

Oh nice - you have (the first ?) on-walls. I imagine a lot of people will be following your posts as you get them set up. Sounds like you have a good dog there - although I imagine the singing must affect the results a bit ?

Boomershoot was really good; very well organized and lots of fun. It was a long drive (three days each way) but worth it. The opening fireball failed to ignite (the explosion blew out the road flares before they could ignite the gasoline so we all got drenched in gas instead) but everything else worked as planned.

The fireball setup is different (bigger) every year so it does go wrong sometimes - this one was 50 pounds of explosive & 34 gallons of gasoline, so the road flares should probably have been placed a lot further out.

Normally it looks something like this... 2015 opening fireball

Did a bit more listening to the M5HP's this morning with a focus on jazz & acoustic instruments. I am really liking these speakers - they seem to pick up a lot of what I liked about the Sierra-1's (more natural acoustic piano sound, tightness/clarity on complex passages) without giving up any of the things I already like about Axioms.

OK, started the first speaker-swapping (between M5HP and M60v4) and ran into the usual "D'oh !!" discoveries.

Some (but not all) of the difference in perceived tonal balance seems to have been caused by different relationships between drivers and ear height. The M5's are on fairly tall stands and so the midrange driver is roughly ear level, while the M60s are on short (5") stands which bring the tweeter to ear level.

The first big difference I noticed from switching in the M60s was the impression of more treble and a more dynamic sound from the M60s. Moving my head up and down several inches allowed me to reproduce a good part of that difference with the M5s (by getting my ears aligned with the M5 tweeter), but the obvious question was what that meant I should do with the setup. First thought was that I might need to take a chainsaw to the M5 stands, but then I remembered that I was planning to put the chair on casters, lifting it by ~5" and making it about the right height for me and for the M5's.

That won't help with the M60s though... I would hate to have to buy LFR's or M100's just to get the right tweeter height

Stepping back 15 feet or so eliminated most of the impact of ear height so the two speakers sounded more similar, but there was still a slight but noticeable difference in tonal balance between the M5s and the M60s, with my preference being for the M5's.

The M5's are definitely less efficient than the M60s. The level control on my receiver is not marked in dB but from previous testing with an SPL meter it felt like "a few dB" of adjustment was needed to match levels.

There were still some cases where the M60s seemed to have too much bass as set up in my room while the M5s seemed "just right". The "too much bass" was only on certain notes so probably still need more bass trapping if I can find a place to put it.

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that my listening area may be too small for ideal placement of larger speakers - raising the M60s a few inches helped but not completely. It occurred to me that my next step probably should have been playing with port plugs in the M60s rather than buying new speakers, but I still really like the M5s so no regrets.

Anyways, next thing I am going to try is pulling the M60s even further into the room ("stupid far") to see what difference that makes. IIRC when I started playing with room acoustics in this house I originally oriented the system across the living room and found the M60s sounded best almost 4 feet from the wall, but the bass was incredibly uneven (seemed to be a function of the long cathedral ceiling) and so I ended up having to rotate everything 90 degrees which gave me the current setup.

In case you are wondering why no pics, my ISP's servers seem to be in a pissy mood and are not allowing me to upload or download anything. I will note that the grills are shaped differently on the M5HPs, with a slight angle to the top and bottom edges. I like it. The wood finish is Knotty Pine with clear semi-gloss finish, and looks extremely good.

Rather than moving the M60s further into the room, which would have introduced other listening challenges, I plugged the lower rear port on each M60 using a pair of old (but clean) socks for each speaker. That seems to have had the desired effect, eliminating the "too much bass on some notes" problem and bringing the sound of the M60s closer to that of the M5HPs.

The change in sound from plugging one port on each speaker is fairly significant, enough that I'm going to try taking the speakers off the 5" stands and putting them back on the floor, albeit tipped up a bit with 1" wood under the front feet to point the tweeters up at ear level.

EDIT - yep, that worked. Bass levels still seem right, and tilting the M60s rather than lifting them gets both midrange & tweeters pointing to ear level. The differences between the speakers are now much more subtle, so I guess I need to start comparing them all over again. That's going to have to wait a while, unfortunately, and I really should get a speaker switch box going first.

And yes, I should have tried plugging a port on the M60s a long time ago.

The M5HP seems like a really important addition to the Axiom product line, filling a gap between M3/M22 and M50/M60 that has existed since the M40 was dropped.

The M40 was really a music-only speaker though, while the M5HP fills a gap for both HT (with sub) and music (without sub) applications.

(Skip to the last few paragraphs if you just want to cut to the chase!)

All, here’s a summary of initial impressions of the M5 HP On-Wall speakers compared to my existing in/on wall M22/M2/M22 LCR combo. These are accompanied by 4xQS8 and an EP500 for a 7.1 system. Powered by a Pioneer SC-05.

Since I had to physically change out speakers and connections any kind of unbiased blind AB testing was not going to be possible. Consider this a totally subjective biased expression of my opinion.

It had been awhile since I’d done any critical listening of my system so I pulled out some of my favourite discs and spent some time reacquainting myself. We watch movies often and I play PS4 with my son and watch TV, however to concentrate on audio subtleties is not something I’d done in a while. So I checked the existing calibration was still correct and then launched into a personal review of audio awesomeness with my W series.

My existing system (see album link below) is the discontinued in/on wall version of the M22 (called the W22 back in the day). The W series has more cabinet volume so has a bit better bass response than the traditional on wall versions sold currently. That is what led me to Axiom in the first place as I was looking for deeper extension from on wall speakers without breaking the budget - also the unique design of the QS series for surrounds was another draw. I first built my system with W22’s and W150 for center channel duties. However after a year or two I became interested in exploring vertical center channels and switched out the W150 for a W2. You can read my listening report on that comparison here. The short version is that I will always have a vertical center channel when possible. Anyway, enter the release of the M5HP OnWalls and I have my chance to go lower in Hz, more capable power handling in dB and to have 3 identical LCR speakers for my front sound stage. But could they be as good as my existing combo?

Before I say anything about the M5’s I first of all have to say how amazing my existing system sounds (to my ears anyway). So much so that as I was reviewing things to listen to for the comparison I began to worry I’d wasted time and money on the new purchase of M5’s without even having heard them yet!

Disclaimer - keep in mind anything I say below is describing shades of grey and is not a black & white difference, no matter what superlatives I may get carried away with

Before listening to the M5’s I also level matched them to be equal to the W’s and with the rest of the system so front to surround/sub balance was as close I could make it.

I started with the often used but still great Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds at Radio City on BR. I listened in particular to the piano in ‘Out of My Hands’ and presence of the guitar in ‘Grace is Gone’. The piano had a slightly more natural sound and greater presence to it with the M5’s. The W22’s sometimes put the piano more forward and less balanced on certain phrases. In Grace is Gone the ‘body sound’ of the guitar had more depth and impact and the high end ‘twanginess’ of the higher guitar notes was somehow smoother and more controlled than the W22 (which still sounded fantastic!)

Another piece I like is the drum battle track ‘Batalla de los Tambores’ from Godsmack on the Changes DVD (yes I said DVD!!). In particular the opening sequence where Sully is playing the bongos against Shannon on the full scale drum set, I find the bongo to drum balance a bit tricky. Here was a more obvious difference where the bongos had much more presence on the M5’s. I find the bongos a bit ‘soft’ compared to the volume of the full drum kit in general in this track, but the M5’s made them more clearly defined. Then later when things get busy the M5’s were able to keep things overall a bit more clear.

In the Porcupine Tree ‘Anesthetize’ Blu-ray, the title track ‘Anesthetize’ has some amazing tom’s by my favourite drummer Gavin Harrison. Here, like the bongos from Godsmack, the M5’s had more snap and impact to the tom strikes. When the track really gets going with the full band it can get a bit busy and lose cohesion if I have my W22’s cranked too high – however the M5’s were able to take the volume without ‘compressing’ the sound and the treble just sounded smoother again. Not sure if this is the v2 vs v4 tweeters, but a nice improvement.

Lastly I used the opening sequence to the 2009 version of Star Trek Blu-ray movie as I did when comparing the W150 to W2 several years ago (see link above). The same improvements applied again but this time from the W2 to the M5 – dialogue, presence, smoothness. Again, the natural impact of the loud brass ‘blasts’ was better with the M5’s shortly after the Paramount logo leaves the screen. I did not check off axis this time around. I did have my wife join for this part - always good to keep the budget committee on your side! My wife could hear the improvements as well so she was sold on keeping the M5’s.

Here’s a link to related photos.

Sorry for the marathon post, but the summary is that the M5HP OnWalls are staying and will be properly & permanently mounted. They are able to play louder and more cleanly with better bass extension, clarity and a smoother high end than my W22’s and W2. Again, this is not black and white, but is a nicer shade of grey .

If cost is a factor I think anyone would be very happy with M22 on-walls (with a good sub of course), but if you want that little bit extra, the M5HP OnWall’s are a nice upgrade.

I have a lot more to learn and experiment with these speakers, however the introduction was good enough to commit to the long term!

I patiently await the arrival of my M5HP OnWall's...

-pd

Hurray

Finally got that wonderful Email saying my QS10 have shipped {Standard Boston Cherry} Should reach the West Coast Friday.

Can't wait
Come on Fed Ex

Nice writeup; glad to hear the new speakers are working for you.

The pictures helped a lot re: relative size of W22 vs the new speakers - looks like the M5HP on-walls get their volume from being wider & deeper rather than taller as I had expected. Thanks for including the video of your dog singing along with the pink noise tests - I don't normally watch animal videos but I loved that one.

I had missed your earlier post about M2 vs VP150 center channel but enjoyed reading that (plus associated comments) as well.

@pdermody - I feel your pain - they must be shipping soon! Are the M5's replacing existing on wall speakers for you?


@brendo - Excellent! Looking forward to hearing about the QS10's. they may be on my hit list next. While tesing the M5's my wife actually asked if there were matching surround speakers for the new ones.

@bridgman - Thanks. I hope some people find the writeup useful. I don't usually do animal videos either but this was an exception.

I had more details but had already written a novel so decided to end where I did. However male vocals in particular also sound better with the M5's. I searched out Morgan Freeman movies on Netflix to test this. Even Dave Matthews voice on the talking between songs had more depth as well.
Another plus is simply having the exact same speaker for LCR I think makes for a more seamless front sound stage. I have much more listening and tweaking to go with these but wanted to get something out there for anyone trying to decide on M5's vs M22's. Your M60 comparo is very interesting reading too.

Cheers,

Nah not replacing anything, they are for a new dedicated room for audio/video - well I should say semi dedicated as it serves another purpose as well... I ordered 3 as I wanted a matching center as all of them will be behind a 120" AT screen.

I have another Axiom setup in the living room consisting of M80Ti's/QS8's (2003 vintage) with a VP160 and a older SVS 20-39 PC+ sub. There use to be a VP150 in that mix but I finally upgraded it as I couldn't ignore how bad it sounded anymore (maybe something wrong with it, not sure - never sounded right but life happened and I ignored it beyond warranty)

That said, I did just get my tracking numbers so with any luck maybe I can set them up this Sunday and have a listen.

-pd

Excellent on the tracking numbers! Since you're behind an AT screen, just curious why you chose on-walls instead of full size model?

Space

Small converted room, and trying to maximize the throw of the projector.

-pd

Makes sense. Looking forward to reading what you think of them. I hope they've arrived safe and sound.

Love hearing the positive impressions of the M5HP OW speakers. Out of curiosity - when did you guys place the orders for your speakers?

I ordered 4 pairs (sides, backs, 4 atmos heights) on Jan. 18 & 19 but I haven't received any indication of when they will be shipped. I'm eagerly awaiting their arrival so I can complete my new home theater and really enjoy it. I've put a hundred hours on the new projector, but haven't been able to enjoy a full 3D immersive (Atmos) sounding movie without any surrounds :<

Received my QS10s yesterday set these beauties up right away, so far have one mounted and the other on a shelf with the old soup can trick.

Audessey sees them as 40Hz though it tends to see all my speakers as large.

Wow didn't realize how much info I was missing with only using monopole as surround in 7.1.

Also picked up a set of the F.M.B. to properly mount my M22 as front heights super happy with that decision wider and higher placement made big difference for me so far. Much larger sound stage.

Need more movies and tunes still. Only a few hours in so far,

I haven't seen any love for the in-walls. Are in-wall speakers unpopular or unfavorable?

From an install point of view

Its hard to get their locations perfect unless care is taken in the rough in process. This means pre locating seating, screen, and sub locations to account for room modes. Retrofitting in-walls into existing rooms usually means modifying studs to get the channel to agree with its reciprocal channel.

Then you are bound to their location from an acoustics/tuning standpoint. If there is something wrong with a location, like an obvious peak in response, you must use EQ to fix it. Moving the speaker isnt an easy option.

The huge positive is how clean the final install looks.

Thanks Serenity. There is only one spot for them in my small bedroom, so if there aren't any other drawbacks....

So that raises an interesting question...

I finally got the imaging "just right" on the M5HPs by playing a bit with separation and toe-in. For M5's fairly widely spaced the best setup seemed to be with speakers toed in about 2/3 of the way between "straight ahead" and "pointing at the listener".

I imagine there is no way to play with toe-in with in-wall / on-wall speakers, so is the idea that you just keep the separation small relative to viewing/listening distance enough that straight-ahead works well ?

That seems to be the way that most systems I see are set up anyways by virtue of typical room and TV size - with speaker separation maybe 1/2 of the viewing/listening distance. My speakers are set up in a pure muic system and are quite a bit further apart - a bit over 6 foot separation and ~9 foot distance from baseline to listener.

Cam, what kind of distance & separation were you thinking about ?

I agree with you Bridgeman (bet you dont hear that too often ) toe in is almost always necessary and i couldnt imagine not being able to toe my speakers. I find it helps by keeping sounds from reflecting off the boundary walls and improves imaging.

There's a first time for everything

I did a bit of experimenting last night, moving the speakers closer together to find out where the imaging "popped" without toe-in.

Turned out pretty well - moving each speaker in less than a foot was enough. So while 6-6.5 foot separation at 9-10 foot listening distance definitely required toe-in, moving the speakers in to ~4.5 foot separation at the same listening distance worked fine without toe-in.

Probably could have gone up to 5 feet and still been OK but I didn't test with enough different material to be sure. If I were cutting holes in walls I would go with something like (listening distance >= 2x separation).

My impression from seeing pictures & real world systems is that most people installing in-wall systems tend to do this anyways just because it looks right. This is also probably just a 2-channel issue anyways, since with 5.1 or similar you have a center channel filling the gap between mains.

I did move the speakers back to 6.5 foot separation with toe-in again after experimenting, since (a) that gave me a wider soundscape which seemed a bit more accurate eg. when listening to grand piano, and (b) the speaker interaction with the room seemed a tiny bit better as well.

While lying in bed, my head is 9 1/2 feet from the wall, and the spots where I was thinking of installing them (blue circles) are 12 1/2 feet apart.

I just had a custom built-in installed (shown at the right edge of the picture). Prior to that, my right channel Paradigm monitor 9 sat in the corner of the cubby that the built-in was framed into, which would be about two feet to the right of the blue circle. When I did major renovations and installed the French doors, we ran speaker wire from my Denon 3808, up and over the door frame, to the floor (basically right below the blue circle).

Thanks for the help.



http://i564.photobucket.com/albums/ss81/Quadcam99/2017-05-09%2019.15.59_zpsbtbibsfc.jpg

Thanks Cam. Agree that the blue circles seem like the only good place for the speakers. With that separation though I would be thinking really hard about toeing them in a bit.

The in-wall speakers are fully enclosed so it should be possible to make an angled frame that sticks out from the wall a bit (maybe 1.5-2") on the outside edges, with a cutout for the speaker that would allow use of the existing clamps, but it seems like a lot of work when it would be easier to get the same result with on-wall speakers instead.

For on-wall you would just need to mount the power bracket on an angled block (30 seconds work with a miter saw) but you would want the blocks to be supported by a wall stud rather than wallboard. I *think* there would be studs available where you want them but not sure. There is always the old trick of using a thin piece of plywood to bridge between where you want to mount and where the stud is.

I guess the main downside of toed-in on-walls is that the outside edges of the speakers would end up almost 6" away from the wall, which would be OK on the left but which might interfere with access via one of the doors on the right hand side. I *think* it would be OK (in which case a floor or hinge-mounted door stop would be all you need) but not 100% sure.

Thanks again, dude. I thought the on-wall speakers were much thicker than the 4.75" stated on the product page. Your suggestion just might work. I'll do some measuring with a caregiver or my mom tonight or tomorrow, then report back to see what you think .

One thing I thought of is rather than having a door stop mounted as you suggested, would it be possible to hang the speaker on a thin piece of wood or metal that's hinged to the wall. That would allow for optimal toe-in adjustment, but then there's the weight of the speaker, and the chance of the door being opened before the speaker is put flush against the wall. Maybe Ian could comment on the hinged idea.

Cam

I'm not Ian, but I really like the hinge idea.

You could also hinge a larger panel with a cut-out for an in-wall speaker and have it recess into an opening in the wallboard, but I suspect you are going to get better LF response from the on-walls anyways due to the larger enclosure volume.

I just did some measuring, and the edge of the door is 3 1/2" from the wall, so on-walls would really interfere with the door. The other thing is that there's no way that each speaker can be placed at equal distance to left/right on my listening position. This is frustrating because I need something to work. If I could please get some other suggestions, I would greatly appreciate it.

can the doors open the opposite way. that is not a really good pic for me, it looks confusing are you using a special lens

There's a good chance that the equal distance left/right issue can be handled with balance control. I haven't played with that for a while but my recollection was that it worked OK - will do some testing. If it works I might shift my speaker placement slightly off-center as well because that would let the speakers go in much more convenient locations.

Will think about door interference some more. From looking at the picture my first impression was that the door would be able to open at least 60-70 degrees even with a toed-in on-wall but I don't know how well that would work for access.

Another option IF the balance control option works OK would be to move the right speaker to the left - wouldn't necessarily have to be enough to clear the door, just enough that it didn't have to be toed in. That way only the left speaker would need to be angled.

Ian, if you see this could you comment on LF response of in-wall vs on-wall and bookshelf ? Right now the frequency response numbers in the specs seem the same for all three, but they look a bit like initial copy/paste numbers rather than actuals (I'm assuming LF would be impacted at least a bit by the smaller enclosures).

I'm working with the assumption that without a sub Cam would be happier with the sound from on-walls than in-walls but I don't really know how big the difference would be.

Hey Cam you have a unique install situation. I would recommend not installing in walls in your room. Since you spend a lot of time in bed, you could in theory build a system around a nearfield multichannel bedpost setup. This would require smaller speakers mounted around your frame integrated into the bed posts themselves. This way you are guaranteed the same result, wherever your bed is setup. Since your listening distance would be reduced, you can get away with much smaller and lower output enclosures. This would save money as well.

A 4 poster with taller posts at the top of the bed would be your path to modular atmos with a quality HTIB package. An inverted U shaped setup at the foot of the bed would allow an articulating TV mount and your speaker locations. If you were smart about it your costs would be similar to what you are thinking of doing with inwalls. Less hassle as well for tweaking later.

11/4" emt conduit bent at a local electrical company would be a cheap and sturdy post setup. We have the odd dad get us to bend up hockey posts.

Hi Bridgman,

The LF of the on-wall and in-wall benefits from the boundary effect but that is not enough to equal the LF output from the bookshelf model.

Fixed that for you.


Thanks Ian. I'm going to pretend I knew that at one point but just forgot

I did a bit of testing to simulate Cam's wall-mount layout with my M5's - right hand speaker in fairly close & pointing straight ahead, left hand speaker "way over there" and toed in significantly.

Worked better than I expected (eg better than my results with speakers closer together but not toed in at all) although only maybe 8/10 for imaging compared to current location. I ended up getting best results by only partially adjusting the balance control and letting the soundscape spread further to the left... thought that would be odd but the result seemed pretty natural.

All that said I think Serenity_Now's idea of smaller speakers mounted more closely could work even better than anything we have discussed so far, although you probably would end up wanting a subwoofer to cover the lower notes.

The sub will be a tough one. Smaller speakers will mean a higher crossover point. This means more modes are affected and Cam's head is near a wall in bed. Dual opposing sidewall subs at mid bed might be a good compromise. Little guys like ep125 would work well.

Might end up being easier than that... if the sub is sufficiently close to the listening position then I *think* that means you don't have to worry about being in a node.

The "subwoofer as end table" model.

I was thinking "EP100 under or beside the bed"...

Sounds like we've got a plan. Cam, get the beer cold. Busy weekend ahead.

Interested to see what you end up choosing and what you like with your new setup Cam.

Pdermody & Icehawk - did you get your M5 OW's? I'd like to know I've got company out there!

Since we are supposed to be getting 2 days of rain this weekend I plan to make some progress on drywall repairs so I can properly mount the M5's soon.

I keep being amazed at how low these play for an on wall speaker. My MCACC calibration saw these speakers as 'large'. However I am playing with crossover to see what I like best. I also use pure direct mode just for fun to mess with straight stereo full range signal playback with no sub. Fun stuff.

Hey bridgman, have you had to roll up your pants yet.

Sorry for the big quote...
Is it possible to move your bed to the left? You could close up the gap between your M5's.

D'oh !!

That's the kind of thing I always miss...

That said, the light pattern on the wall suggests a window to the left of the bed.

This might sound like a crazy idea, but how about mounting the speakers on the wall behind the bed rather than in front of it ? Your ears won't care.

The speakers would probably have to be toed in quite a bit to get the best imaging but there is probably room for that. Might even be possible to use bookshelf speakers on small shelves fastened to the wall...

Have many people received the QS10 speakers yet? We are mid May now and I haven't heard anything at all from an order back in January when it was charged. I was under the impression they were originally scheduled in April but still seem to be waiting. Wonder have there been production problems with them?

brendo got his 10's but otherwise haven't heard from anyone else for the on-wall M5's or QS10's.
You'd figure Axiom would be caught up with pre-orders by now. Did you check with Axiom for an update?

Hey guys. Thanks for the suggestions, and sorry for my absence and late reply.

I like the smaller speakers + subwoofer idea, but I don't really have room for a sub (well, I could put one under my TV, but my receiver would have to sit on it). I also can't mount the speakers behind my bed because it's an outside wall, and I don't want to mess with the vapor barrier etc. Annnd my bed can't be moved to the left because I need the space for my wheelchair. I did think about mounting them just below the ceiling, but the M5's won't fit above the french doors.

Imho the m2 at the end of your bed would be just about right.

Hey brwsaw. The M2's are too small. I need something that'll be close to what I am getting with my current Paradigm's.

Hmmm... Could they be mounted horizontally above the door? Or would that affect their performance negatively?

I got my QS10 speakers two weeks ago. However I am still waiting for the "stand tops" for my FMS QS stands. Yesterday I was told that they might be ready to ship by mid next week. Looks like I will be past the 30 day trial period by the time they are completely set up.

I'd be willing to bet that Axiom would extend your trial period if you give them a call or email.

I can extend that offer now. We will make it 30 days from when the stand tops arrive. They will be right after the in-wall tool is out of the machine, which looks like tomorrow. Then they have to get prepped and finished, so next week your stand tops will be shipped.

Thank you, Ian. I appreciate the extension - but I'm sure I will love them. Truth be told I have never returned any Axiom product (they're too good). I'm sure the QS10s will play nicely with my M100s, VP180, EP800 and ADA1250 amp.

How high are your ears and whats the ceiling height?
Someone into automating might drop them down from the ceiling (at the right height and with the ideal seperation).
Or spread out from the sides/end of the bed like a power extension mirrors on a big rig 18 wheeler, for wide loads.
I haven't heard the M2, I will own a pair asap. For you...30 day trial. Just saying.
End of bed = 6' away and 6' apart.
This might be a dumb question but whats on the wall behind you?

Edit #3..Does your bed move often? Maybe custom height stands could be mounted/installed on/into the floor?

My ears are about 3 feet off the floor. My bed never moves, and I don't have the room for floor stands.

The picture below shows the opposite wall (behind me). The bedside table (on my right) can't really be home for one of the M5's because wash basins get placed there regularly. I also can't have anything directly behind my bed because my caregivers need to get in there to move me up in bed, wash my hair etc. The only thing I can think of is mounting both M5's on the wall with two FMB's behind me as Bridgeman suggested (blue dots). I just really dislike having to disturb the vapor barrier.

Thoughts? Will they still sound perfectly fine if they're slightly behind me? Hopefully Ian will see this and comment.

Thanks again, everyone.

I've seen monitor stands similar to yours with 3 (or more) arms. Designed to hold multiple monitors you should be able to find one that would essentially replace the one shown, be moveable, etc.
Like any stand you would want to watch the overall weight limitations but that said you could mount a speaker pair instead of additional monitors.
You'd gain in that its already aimed/leaning towards you. You wouldn't need them to be adjusted too much or too often.
Just an idea.

M2's might be big for that location size wise but would still be my first speaker of choice in this case.

I wouldn't have any reservations trying a pair of axioms PC speakers either. The first axiom speakers I ever heard happens to be the smallest I now own. It impressed me and personally I'd be excited to try them if I had a similar layout.

I'm not sure I'd install behind unless you go with a surround type setup.

In ceiling maybe.

I'm going to have to call, I haven't heard anything in regards to my QS10's still just says processing since January.

I would greatly appreciate feedback from Ian regarding mounting the speakers about a foot behind my head, in the placement shown above. I don't have room for stands in front of me.

Thanks

Hmmmmm. Unfortunate Ian hasn't replied. I've asked for his input twice now, and both have gone unanswered. I value his input.

Imho I think a mod could/should move this conversation to its own thread.
Hopefully everything is alright and Ian's just missed it.

No, they wont sound perfectly fine. Google "sound localization" and think about where humans have evolved to hear sound from. They will sound like surrounds in a theater setup. The difference is they will be hard panned sounds without front soundstage channels to anchor to.... The HRTF is going to shadow any sound from summing to create a front soundstage. Just nebulous late room spatial cues without direct sound for precedence.

I have no business replying.... But I do know laying between two channels as a stereo pair will not sound like a normal stereo presentation. Angled ceiling LCRs would be better, but you will have to think about aligning your phantom image with the display image if you hope to use them for multipurpose.

Thanks, Serenity. That does make sense. Looks like in-walls would be best, if they can be tweaked somehow to allow for toe-in.

It's never easy figuring stuff out to work with my disability or situation.

Hi Cam,

There have been some great suggestions here. I am liking the ceiling mounting the best if that can work. We could make brackets that would hang M5HP Bookshelf from the ceiling angled down towards you. It would be best to get them as low as possible without the risk of someone hitting their head on one.

Thank you very much for the reply, Ian. I like your idea. I just hope that two speakers hanging from my bedroom ceiling will look unsightly.

I'll try to do some measuring with a caregiver (finding time for non care related stuff is hard).

Again... thank you

Ian you guys rock.

You definitely need a like button.

I want some.
Lol.

Is it possible to put the M5 on a FMS24? I did some measuring, and it would get the tweeters just below the mid point on my TV, and if I wanted to move the M5s to surround duty later on, the FMS24 would let them clear the arms and back of my couch.

We made a modified top plate for the stands that centres the M5HP properly. It is easy to change the top on existing stands.

That's great news. I don't have any stands yet (my M5HPs are sitting on top of two dead (non-Axiom) subwoofers). I don't see a place on the FMS page to specify which top plate is required.

I'll probably wait until next week and order the stands and a sub at the same time.

Is there any feed back or review on the QS10S
RJ

I haven't seen any yet. Would also like to see some third party reviews of the M5HP - IMO it would review EXTREMELY well. Not a sea change from previous Axiom speakers but one more step of refinement in the v2->v4 direction.

I haven't had a chance to A/B them with my Sierra-1's yet but I have compared the M5's with a few other speakers and so far they seem to split the difference really well between what I liked about Axioms and what I liked about the Sierras... and that's getting pretty close to "as good as it gets".

There is a review coming of the M5HP on SoundStage in the next few months.

They look great...how do they sound?

Interested in comparison between Ascend Sierra 1 and M5HP. What are your thoughts? Thanks

What do you think of the M5's now? Very interested in your long term evaluation. Thanks

Love them. In fact, I might be in the market to add an amp to give them more juice. Btw, here is the review from soundstagehifi

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1130-axiom-audio-m5hp-loudspeakers

Spiroh, where is the center image? Is it in front of the drivers, in the plane of the drivers, or behind the drivers? How is the soundstage depth?

I have this setup in my office. I got better imaging and sound by having the speakers tilted in facing about 1 ft in front of me. Depth is good, no complaints there. I'm currently running them off a Marantz SR6009 and it can get plenty loud with good bass impact but at some point i would like to get a dedicated amp for them but it's an office so that might be overkill LOL.

Might there ever be signature versions of M5,M100 etc that would have thicker cabinets,die cast drivers and cross-over upgrades? I am a long time Axiom user and have really loved them but I have eaten from the evil Bryston tree and the Mini-T is a stellar performer. I am guessing the difference are the above mentioned items. I think the HP drivers have trickled down but will anything else come along??

The Mini-T has an 8" woofer compared to the M5HP. It's also twice the price of the M5HP. Why would Axiom want to position its products like Bryston when both Bryston and Axiom have good things going with their respective product lines?

Sorry Mojo, I don't follow you, are you talking about the Bryston A series of speakers?

I think landru is looking for the trickle down effect of the tech used in the Bryston line . As mojo said it wouldnt make any sense to go up against yourself(Bryston) , since Bryston paid good money to have Axiom design and build the speakers for them, so Axiom would have to buy back that tech in essence. If you like the Brystons buy them, or just buy the Axioms if its out of your reach.

The better question would be what does some of those items give? A thicker cabinet? Die-Cast drivers? A different crossover?

Apart from having a much heavier speaker, I don't see the point. A die-cast driver likely makes any sound improvement or I know that Ian and Andrew would have put that into their speaker offering. It might look good on paper, but little to gain.

The last you listed was a different crossover. That is where you get into the meat and potatoes. If you followed Axiom, you would know that they are one of the few companies that actually test speakers and work with a full 360deg family of curves to know how the reflections off axis will impact the sound coming out the front. They have played with their crossovers from the V3 to the v4 to get them better. If you wanted a better sounding speaker, then why don't you look at the LFR as then you are effectively moving into an active pre-processor that interacts with the crossover to get perfect timing and a real true sound out.

I do sometimes wonder if I could trade in some Axioms for a pair of Mini-T's

Numerous significant improvements have been made over the years in all the drivers, enclosures, electronics and cross-overs. Also new products like the M5HP, VP160, LFRs, Air have been introduced. The subs now are an entirely different animal. Then there's also the Family of Curves and improved quality control.

Axiom's HP drivers are cast. There are definite performance advantages of cast over stamped when a "larger" motor structure is necessary.

Also note Axiom has "beefed up" the bracing in most of its speakers. See the YouTube videos. Cross-overs have also improved.

I've been following Axiom's work closely. I don't believe any of these changes were inspired by marketing. I think when Andrew came on board Ian finally got the help he needed. The LFR and Model T projects likely catalyzed some new research that led to the changes.

When you step back and look at what Axiom has done over the last 8 years, it's actually quite amazing!

Craig Chase says the M5HP with a sealed Axiom sub is on par with the best $10K speakers he's heard. So maybe that trio is better than Mini-Ts.

It wouldn't surprise me - crossing over at 100 Hz or so would knock off the worst of the bass bump and the rest of the frequency response is pretty good.

Mini-T

M5HP

I messed around with port plugs without much success, but I should probably try the official ones instead of random foam bits I had lying around.

I still have an overwhelming urge to take a Sawz-all to one of my M5HP pairs and extend the cabinet a bit to lower the tuning frequency by about 15 Hz (I can live without being able to play loud), but they both have such nice veneer I can't bring myself to do it. Besides, I don't have time and I keep forgetting the math.

Axiom's FR curves are a few years newer than the SoundStage ones and look flatter - guessing there might have been some tweaking over time.

My recollection is that Axiom's published curves generally come pretty close to SoundStage's if the same year of speaker is measured, although I guess they may do different things for handling the lowest frequencies.

Thought I remembered someone saying that both chambers were good down to ~80Hz or so, but Axiom has a "subwoofers in space" tower and I don't know what NRC does (but I bet it involves a government-sized parking lot.

I should probably bite the bullet and try some LFR's - they probably have some of the Bryston goodness as well as all the omni goodness - but I still really want to be able to separate all that stuff out in my own head.

I guess I could try LFR's and turn off the amp powering the back half... hmm.

The NRC reported a 9dB swing in the listening window amplitude between ~80 to ~160 Hz. Also the impedance magnitude above 1 KHz looks very different from the one published on the Axiom site.

Ian says the chamber at the NRC will almost never be accurate below 150 Hz as they can’t write a correction curve for each model. He put the tower up so he could measure each model in 4pi and then write a chamber correction curve that was accurate for that model. Even then it is only truly accurate at the amplitude you write the correction for. As for the impedance curve, he says maybe the ferro fluid was not up to temperature. Temperature and ferro fluid is a big deal. When he worked at the NRC, he had to remove all the tweeters from the samples and make sure they were in the front of the car or he would lose a few hours warming the magnets up on heaters.

Very interesting about the ferro fluid. I have noticed and reported on these boards what I believe to be ambient temperature-related changes in my listening sessions. The ferro fluid may be one of the reasons.

LOL - so there is something to this "speaker break in" thing after all

I'm kidding !!!

Seriously, thanks for the post - fills some important gaps in what I remember.

How our brain interprets sound is ultimately a chemical process which is impacted by more than anyone currently understands. Intestinal peptides for example play a big role and those are controlled by your lifestyle (eating, exercising, sleeping, etc). When we figure out exactly how our brain interprets sound, we won't need room correction; we'll be able to "take a pill".

So all the votes are in. The M5HP is a winner. My M5HPs, with their front baffles placed 5 feet from my front wall, render a completely 3D, holographic soundstage behind them across the 20 foot width. In my 4200 cu. ft. room, the M5s acoustically "disappear". Listeners who inspect the back of my M5s are shocked to find nothing more than puckered sphincters.

Every v4 product I have is truly spectacular.

I was listening to the difference between my M5s and M100s this morning. The M5s carve these super sharp images in the soundscape behind them and at the same time, acoustically disappear. The images from the M100s are bolder, bigger and more dynamic and don't disappear as well acoustically unless I turn up the volume a bunch. Also as I've said before many times, the M100s sound closer to reality. It's real tough to choose between them.

Alan, help me. What do I do? Do I go to active LFRs?

I would be very nice to your M5HPs and enjoy them

That's wise advice, John. My problem is v4 has introduced me to the wide, deep, layered and nuanced soundstage I've been looking for since around 2012. I can't see how this experience can be further improved with passive cross-overs. I maintain Axiom has taken the current architecture as far as it can. I want to believe active speakers will heighten the experience and LFRs more so.

My experience with omni-directional speakers from Bose, Mirage and KEF has not been good though. I don't want the so-called "stereo everywhere" effect but I can see how certain applications benefit from it. I want stereo at my MLP only and I want that stereo stage to be as wide, deep and layered as it can possibly be with sharply defined images and blackness (silence) in between with audibly invisible speakers. I get that with all my v4 and find that both my M3 and M5 disappear. The M100 disappears less well but it has the advantage of higher fidelity (instrument and voice realism).

This disappearing act is vastly important to me as is the soundstage I described. Power handling and dynamics are secondary. I would gladly take an M3, with its lower fidelity, over an active LFR, if that M3 was better in the disappearing act and soundstage departments.

I also have some emotional concerns about even trying LFRs or active LFRs. I hold both Ian and Andrew in very high regard. I have very private reasons for feeling this way about them but let's just say you'd have to be in product design, like me, to fully understand why. If I listen to the active LFRs and they offer no or only a minor improvement in the features I really care about, I will be shattered. Shattered because this journey with the Family of Curves, the LFRs, and now the active LFRs, was a long and painful one and most likely not over. For it to lead to a dead end with active LFRs would be too much for me.

I can take the blue pill and happily live with my passive v4. I can take the red pill, go down the rabbit hole and emerge in some warped space-time that will scramble my emotions. I suppose maybe there's a green pill that will lead me into active but not LFR land.

Yep, that all makes sense.

I'm taking a bit of a chance with the LFRs, not because I have any doubts that they will be very good at what they are designed to do, but just because I'm not sure how closely my listening preferences align with their goals.

That said, I'm going into this knowing what to expect and am apparently OK with that, so we'll see how it goes. The safe/smart thing would have been to go with M100's, but the LFRs kept calling to me.

Having Ian tell me I needed LFRs every time I stopped by didn't help either

I am finding that I have less and less time for "sit in one place" listening these days so I'm hoping that "decent soundstage across a wider area" ends up being a good tradeoff against "sharpest imaging when sitting in exactly one spot".

I need to get rid of the current listening chair anyways... the big poofy arms are messing with imaging to the point where I have to perch precariously on the edge of the seat cushion for best results... so I'm guessing it should work out OK on balance.

I would not be surprised to see active M100s at some point.

Your empathy is comforting.

I see. So you want to graze around your house as opposed to sitting at your MLP. You sound like Slimpikins who grazes while maxing out both his Anthem M1s and needed the outboard Bryston crossover for his Ts so they don't ignite.

Are you going active LFRs?

Actually I do want to sit in the MLP - I just rarely have time these days. I was kinda hoping I wouldn't have to retire just to get a few minutes of free time every now and then, but starting to wonder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjf5pdJJ44Q


Yep. I'm not entirely sure about the wisdom of spending even more before having a chance to figure out if I actually *like* the omnidirectional sound, but who can resist pre-order pricing ?

Ian's recommendation was to dedicate my 1500-4 to the woofers (using only 2 channels) and add a 1500-8 for everything else... so that's what I did.

I wonder if Ian's speakers are knotty pine too ?

Forget about retiring. There are active LFR2200s down the road. You know? The ones with drivers gracing the outboard sides of the cabinets. The ones that will have even more refinement in The Family of Curves. You can picture what's after the 2200s.

There is no wisdom in any of this. It's as Feynman said, all about the pleasure of finding things out.