As some of you already know we have been working on an Active version of the LFR1100. The advantage to the active version is twofold. Since we have a DSP for each speaker controlling the five groups of drivers (Front Low, Front Mid, Front High, Rear Low, and Rear High) we are able to create a more refined family of curves in the "Spinorama" to achieve a new level of accuracy. There is also the advantage of being able to achieve a higher maximum dynamic power reproduction by eliminating the internal crossovers and being able to dedicate an amp channel to each of the five driver groups. It is very exciting to see it finally coming to fruition.

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Wow ... once you have experienced a dedicated amp for each set of drivers with no crossover, regular speakers just won't "do."

The problem is we love our 1100's. Ian, you are a troublemaker.

I need M5 and M100 to LFR upgrade kits.

Oh please Mr. Chase. Describe for me what I will experience.

I've written out the Laplace transforms for active and passive speakers on the napkins in front of me and clearly see how poles and zeros will shift on the root locus. For the life of me though, I can't resolve the synaptic response eigenvalues to determine my emotional response.

So please tell me. Will I experience a rhapsodic rapture?

Can't wait, Ian. This will be a fun road to go down.

I want to go down this road too! Charles, please take me with you.

I see the LFR1100 has gained a rear sphincter.

And it will reach 124dB in room at steady state and up to 129dB peak! I think at 130dB, the covariant quantum fields that comprise our universe start to break down. LOL!

According to the product page, these will offer pin-point imaging while expanding the soundstage.

With my non-LFR v4, I swear one can be fooled into believing I have surround on most songs when in 2.0 or 2.1. I haven't tried with movies.

With the LFR Actives, do I need the 160 and QS10? Do I really need an 800?

Think you'll have to come out with a 10 channel amp to go with.

Or perhaps put the active crossover in a 5 channel amp ... that way one can get each closer to the speaker ... or just put the whole thing in the speaker. Unless you need both channels to process the LFR signal ... (which I'm thinking might be a real possibility)

Ian, how is the directivity on those active LFRs? Are you able to get the listening window and sound power curves to pretty much lie on top of each other?

Hi rrlev,

An ADA1500-5 per speaker would work really well. Since there is one DSP per speaker the amp/DSP combo can be over by each speaker. I did think about putting the DSP and an ADA1500-5 in the speaker. It would save a lot of wiring as you would just need to plug each speaker into the wall. Our 4in1 Transmitter/pre-amp/AxiomAir could send the information to each speaker wirelessly.



But the speaker would have to get quite a bit taller to house all this amplification and the DSP. As it is you could still use the 4in1 Transmitter/pre-amp/AxiomAir and have the receiver mounted in the DSP for each speaker so the wiring would be minimal, just 5 short speaker wires if the amp is near the speaker and the interconnects from the DSP to the amp.

Hi Mojo,

Yes we are. It is pretty cool to have this much control in the design phase. The flip side is the mathematical nightmare of all those curves coming together. You have five distinct radiating patterns to work with to give you the final result at each 7.5 degree increment in the Spinorama. Since adjusting one affects all the others you can kind of get the picture.

Then we're all in big trouble. We all need to upgrade to LFR actives.



Yes, that's why we need one driver to rule them all. But it's so much fun to play God with speaker systems.

So if I popped my head in next Thursday, could I see a working demonstration? Just Wondering??

Hi Matt,

A week or two later would be better if you can swing it. Right now everything is at my place.

Win win

Mat, what Ian isn't telling you is that he blew the sh!t out of the test gear Andrew gave him. He hooked up 5 ADA-1500s to each LFR. When that "worked", he jumpered the ADAs for bridged mono mode and launched the HP drivers across the room with smoke trails and tendrils of voice coil trailing behind them. At least that's how the dream I had last night went.

Lol

He really is running 5 ADAs per active LFR1100. It's a good assumption they're bridged. He must have them 50 feet apart and sitting at least that far away. I'm sitting 10 feet away from my M5s which are 10 feet apart, listening to Burning Down the House through my puny Pioneer at -10 and it's more than enough to rattle my rib cage. Clean too!

One ADA-1000 is more than enough for my M100s for either music or movies. That's at 13 feet away with the M100s 12 feet apart in a 4,200 cu. ft. room. With the ADA-1000/M100, I can turn my Onk up to 0dB and it's loud and clean! It's pretty cool but only tolerable for songs that are relatively quiet with huge swings. A real treat.

The 1500 is absolute insanity. I cannot shut it down and it brings the M3 and M5 to their knees. I am sure I could ignite the M3 with it and while Ian said to give the M5 all the 1500's love, I can't bring myself to do it. Not the M100 though although I am sure it's pretty close and the voice coils are gasping for air. Those HP drivers are looking like Marty Feldman's eyes. I had my muffs on and this time ear plugs as well but can still hear the huge, enveloping sound. The hairs on my arms were standing up like a werewolf in heat. LOL!

Well, let's face it. Active LFR is a costly proposition. I guess there are going to be those who money doesn't really stand as an object when it comes to sound, but the question to be asked is would those people also not be part of the snobbery that would question the pedigree of Axiom and just buy into some more well-advertised brand that has better name recognition with their other snob minded acquaintances.

I have a pair of LFR1100s. I find that they do play quite well and can give me a whole load of enjoyment. I have tested an ADA1500 with my setup in my room and found no real advantage over the ADA1000 that I currently own.

I got an email from Axiom offering me to move up to Active. Why would I go on blind faith that it will be that much better? I know the side of diminishing returns and now that at this point in the curve that getting a small fraction better sound can cost quite a large investment in cash.

It comes back to the so misquoted statement that I made. The improvement in sound I got from going from an older set of speakers, in my case a pair of Energy C3, to a set of M3v4 speakers was gigantic. The M3 are about $600. The improvement from the M3 to M100 is there, but not 4 times better considering the cost of the speakers are over four times the price. If you moved to the LFR1100 your cost jumps up well over 10x the price.. do you honestly think you are getting that much jump in sound? Yes it is bigger and envelops you more. But it is a night and day better sound like going from a 12" black and white TV to a 100" 4k laster projection?

If I was to trade in my LFR1100 for an active system, I would want to take a listen with a blind A/B comparison to say yes I can hear an improvement over what I have now and it's worth the extra cash out of my pocket to get that sound.

I am just outside of Dwight for the next 4 days. If Ian wants to sell me on going Active, then show me what it can do.

Well...let's see. The M3s can take 200W average and 800W peak. The M100s can take 600W average and 2400W peak. Not 4 times better but certainly 3 times...if your application calls for it.

The quality of the lows, mids and highs of the M3 cannot be compared with the M100. Once you hear the two beside one another, it's like night and day. A novice would very quickly pick the M100 over the M3. In fact, many novices have at my place. The 100s are more than 4 times better in this department.

You need twice the amplifier power with the M3 to get the same SPL as the M100.

The soundstage and imaging of the M100 though is definitely not 4 times better than the M3 but it is wider and taller. This is an amazing feat of engineering on Axiom's part. You will get very similar imaging and soundstage from the least to most expensive speaker. That soundstage and imaging is holographic! As you move up, you will get improved width, improved fidelity across the entire audible range, improved micro and macro dynamics and improved dynamic range. But the character of the entire family is the same. Bravo!

As for the LFRs, I don't know because I've never heard them.

If I had LFRs, I'd trade them in for the actives and if the actives weren't better in my space, back they'd go. I am willing to wager though, the active LFRs will image significantly better!

P.S. The 1000 can drive the M100s very loud and clean but it gives up long before the 1500. The 1500 also does a better job with the lows if playing the M100s full band. Of course this is all academic if your application doesn't need that kind of power. This is probably quite the same with the LFRs as you've found.

How does one actually power all of those ADA's? I thought I was going nuts with building 4800W of circuit capacity into my media closet.

If you are talking about powering a pair of the active LFR1100, you could use two, 5-channel ADA-1000s. That's likely no more than 1800W. That may work well for a medium size room or even a large room if you don't want to open it up too much.

Recall the nominal (average) power is far less than the peak. The breaker can take peaks without tripping.

So by your logic, a 600hp BMW M5 is a far better car to drive than my 140hp Kia Niro. Yes, it is far more expensive and has better specs all around, but put them both on an LA freeway in rush hour and I bet you'd far prefer the Niro as it gets to use the HOV lanes. Power is meaningless unless you are in an environment that lets you use it.



I just call utter bullshit on that! Yes the M100 can produce a lower low. But the mids and highs are not that far off. Again, I gather that you when doing your demo are following the Spinal Tap and running your amp to 11. At realistic listening volumes in an average sized room, the two are not that far apart. Not everybody wants or has the need to listen at 100db of sound. And I think that is why I can't seem to take most of your sound rants seriously as I feel you are living in your own world that the vast majority of the rest of the population simply don't.

I still don't see the point of spending my money unless I know that it will give me something in return.

I suggest you read my posts a little more carefully.

The M3 and M100 are indeed on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to fidelity across the entire audible range. That holds true at any SPL from -25 on my Onk and up. Of course this depends on how critical you want to be about fidelity but I can tell you those who have listened to mine side-by-side are not at all critical when it comes to sound, and they immediately pick the M100. Not so between the M3 and M5 but even there, when they listen more closely, they pick the M5.

If you're familiar with my posts, you'd know I don't listen loud. All my buds listen even lower because they're quite sensitive to SPL.

As for my posts, I lived for almost 12 years with my shitty v2. I have great reason to celebrate over my v4 which are at least an order of magnitude better than v2. How about celebrating with me?

Hi Matt,

I would be careful not to confuse the cost of the amplification with the speakers. For $5,700 you get both omnidirectional speakers and two fully balanced DSPs capable of controlling 10 individual channels. In a smaller room where you would not be throwing a party, two ADA1000-5 amplifiers would be loads of power for the LFR1100 Actives. You already know what the passive version of the LFR1100s can do so I would think of it from the perspective that for around $700 more dollars plus some extra amp channels you can take things up one more notch. And beyond that I would put out the challenge that you may not be able actually buy a better sounding pair of speakers for any price.

Hi bman84,

As Mojo mentioned it is all about the available peak power to avoid any possibility of amp clipping no matter the dynamic range of the source material. The actual continuous power consumption will be easily handled by a normal wall circuit. This said, I don't think you would want to turn on all the amps at the same time or the inrush current may cause the breaker to blow. There is a lot of capacitance there to handle those dynamic peaks looking for an initial charge.

Oh my... I just noticed these are ready. Given that I haven't had time to unpack and set up my LFR1100's yet I am thinking hard about trading up to the actives. I have always been a big fan of bi- and tri-amping, although one of the attractions was being able to crank the volume up until the bass was clipping without frying the tweeters. I don't do that no more... trying to save the last of my hearing.

I ordered a 4 channel ADA1500 with the LFR's, so thinking about maybe using that for woofers and front mids then adding a 6-channel ADA1000 for the rest.

I always used to run larger amps for the lower frequency channels so that might be an option here as well, but don't know if ADA1000 and 1500 have compatible gain and polarity (ADA1000 is 1.2v for full output while ADA1500 is 2V for full output so it seems promising).


I feel stupid asking this since I own a (still in box) ADA1500, but are the ADA power switches mechanical or electronic ? Thinking about the situation where you get a power outage then power comes back on again... although I suppose in that case the caps might maintain enough charge to limit the inrush. I guess that leads to a "do you only turn ADAs on when using them or leave them on 24/7 ?" question that belongs in another thread.

Yes, email already sent to Debbie.

Totally fair question. There is definitely not a linear relationship between cost and performance, and the knee of the curve is somewhere around the M3. Past that you get continued improvements in sound quality plus the ability to fill larger rooms (or play more loudly) but you are definitely dealing with diminishing returns per $$ and your money is getting you nuances rather than night-and-days.

One of the reasons I was so excited about the M5HP was that IMO it gave Axiom a "this is as good as most people are ever going to need" bookshelf speaker, which I felt was a gap in their lineup previously.

That said, if you do have a large room to fill then going to larger speakers does give you more than a nuance in benefits. For a smaller room it gets tougher to justify going much past M5HP or M60 from a value perspective, although the larger speakers are still going to sound better even so.

Going from regular to LFR is arguably another expensive nuance, but one I definitely wanted to try.

Since I don't play my system very loudly these days I don't expect to get more than another nuance going from passive to active crossovers, but (a) I grew up on active crossovers - talk about a mis-spent youth - and (b) I really like the work that Ian and Andrew have been doing and am really interested in the possibilities that come from doing the active crossover in a DSP rather than a few op-amps.

Bottom line - do I expect a big difference between passive and active LFRs ? Nope. Do I expect some interesting nuances which I might or might not find really desireable ? Yep.

I do agree with your point about being able to listen to the speakers... the "internet direct" model works exceptionally well with smaller speakers but starts to get a bit strained once you are talking about LFR1100s and a stack of electronics that comes up to your waist. It probably would be worthwhile for Axiom to set up a listening room with a permanent set of LFR's that can be A/Bed with other speakers from their lineup for a while, just so more people can see and hear what they can do.

If you are not able to connect with Ian while you're up in the area and I do go ahead with trading to the actives, I would be happy to haul them out to your place so we can A/B them with your speakers.

John, I've discovered some very interesting things in my listening sessions with the M3, M5, M100, 1000-3 and 1000-5.

First, when watching movies, the mains don't matter. Surprise! I can't hear a difference between any of the above models in 5.1.

Second, when watching movies, the external amps don't matter. Surprise! My Onk is more than good enough for my 4,200 cu. ft. room and 13 foot MLP.

Third, for 2.1, the speakers matter a lot - a lot more than external amps. As I've said umpteen times, the soundstage and imaging are very similar between these three models and that's where it ends. The M5 is worth every penny over the M3. It is more than twice as good. No one I know wants the M3 when they hear the M5. The difference between the M3 and M100 is very stark. Not so between the M5 and M100 but when one listens closely, one hears things they can't unhear. The hand claps in Unsquare Dance sound like hand claps on the M100. On the M5, you know they are hand claps but they sound less human. You'd never know they can sound better than the M5 until you've heard the M100! My buddy (and Ian knows this) listened to my M5s numerous times and was very moved with the sound. But when he heard the M100s, when he heard those hand-claps, he wanted to buy them off of me. Then his wife stepped in and we all know how that ends.

Fourth, if you want the realistic sound of M100s, you better have a big room or they will boom like the dickens. You can plug the ports, apply XT32 and they'll still boom. Besides, plugging the ports changes their character. This is why I find the M5s to be the sweet spot. They work in big or small rooms and they sound excellent enough.

Fifth, for 2.1, external amps can matter. If you are planning on running the gain around 0, even the M3 sounds better with a 1000 but I wouldn't recommend running an M3 that loud because it's at the limits. If you're running M5s, the 1000 may not be enough for some songs unless you're sitting 8 feet away. And if you're running the M5s that loud in 2.0, you will hear distortion because a single HP driver can only go so far. If you're running M100s, the 1000 can be very good and anything more is for longer listening distances than mine or for very short periods of listening otherwise you will go deaf. Even the 1000 though has its limits and I can shut it down before the Onk pre-amp, M5 or M100 give up. That's where the 1500 comes in and can take the M100 right up to its compression limit.

Sixth, even in a largish space like mine, with M100s, I can live with my Onk with no regrets. Not so with M3s or M5s because in 2.1, they don't have the 'nads for some very dynamic material.

Yep, that pretty much matches my understanding although I have not yet had a chance to listen to M-100's. The jump from M3 to M5HP is significant, and going to tower speakers makes a difference when you need to fill a large room.

I am very happy with my older M60ti's for HT and have no plans to ever replace or upgrade them. I do need to get off my butt and hook up the new UDP-203 via analog to the HK630 so I can have 7.1 and then wire up the M2ti's as rear surrounds, but that's as far as I ever expect to need to go.

That said, I haven't even been up to the loft (where the HT is set up) in a couple of months.

I don't know what's going on with you, man. Where are your priorities? LOL.

Strange. I would have thought that movie tracks could be just as demanding as music, especially with sounds like gunshots/explosions, and dynamic classical scores. Maybe it's the center channel that matters most here.

Bman, you got that right about the center channel. I measured 16 times the power going into my 160 vs the M100s in a GOT dragon destruction sequence. I had 8W going to the M100s and 128W to the 160.

Also, it could be there's so much going on in movies, it's hard to be critical compared to 2.1 music.

Solid test material! 16x the power is pretty insane. That's a good point about critical listening as well. Holds especially true in when a lot of surround activity is present.

I find the maturation of Axiom to be interesting. When I first heard Axiom speakers in 1989, visited the factory and met Ian in 1990, joined this board in 2002, the basic premise was low cost, high quality sound. Real wood? Not a chance as the value is on the inside! Expensive speakers over $2k? Not a chance as that not be in line with the company mantra!

Now, dont get me wrong, I think the new products are exciting and could open the company and products to new fans. I have enjoyed the version updates and introduction/removal of new models (anyone still have a Sherwood receiver or the M40's - not to mention the original, non ASW AX3's that I first purchased)?

I think it is a great company, with solid leadership who are not afraid to push the envelope of busy and refine/design wonderful products! I cant say that LFR's and a stack of amps is something I have the desire to own anymore - that boat sailed with my Reference 3a Suprema's and Simaudio Moon amps in the 1990's, but I am glad the options are now there for those who do. Having heard the LFR's, EP800's and the ADA amps at the last Axiom anniversary party, I can say I wish they were around when I was heavily into gear as the end game - where now I simply enjoy the music/movies.

Congrats to Ian and team!

"I find the maturation of Axiom to be interesting."

Indeed! One of the qualities I love about Ian is his hunger for knowledge. Another is his incessant drive to adapt to that knowledge and create new frontiers.

I'm hoping an active LFR180 will follow before long, even if it means even more channels of amplification to think about.

Yeah, it's not like me to leave speakers unopened (or listening rooms unmolested) for even a day let alone a few months. Who knows... maybe I was subconsciously waiting for the active LFRs.

Charles, what the hell are we gonna do, man? All this audio innovation and addiction to pornaudio is gonna kill us!

If you can wait a tad bit longer, Axiom is working on new drivers. Apparently Ian was babbling during his nightly 2 hour nap and fortunately Amie was able to record him. He recited a recipe for quantum foam which they've been able to formulate in the thermo-forming machine. It excites quarks at the Planck scale for the ultimate resolution!

Can anyone tell me what kind of standby power each axiom DSP consumes?
How about a 5 channel 1500 axiom amp?

If I shut off or turn on power to the wall outlet which supplies the DSP and Axiom amp does it power down it power down and up gracefully?

Just wondering if leaving the active LFRs on all the time consumes a lot of energy and if it does would it make sense to switch it off remotely.

I'd say 10W for each ADA and DSP.

As for your second question, I'd direct that to Axiom. They may have an inrush current limiter that only functions off the trigger input or power switch.

Charles, regarding the LFR180, if we are to have active LFR1100s, don't you think we should have active LFR180s that have dual HP woofers on the front left and right?

It makes sense to me.

Heh heh.

Mojo,

10W sounds like a lot for a D amp ... is that a measurement??
The DSP box should be way below that ...

Also I take it that's when the amp's triggered
What is it when not triggered?

Rich

Never quite got the LFR center channel thing. Are we not trying to localize sound to the center of the screen??

Rich, it was an educated guess on my part from the stand-by spec Axiom gave for the DSP subs. I'll see if I can dig up the manual. It's not on-line.

Regarding the LFR centre, I expect the sound will still be localized to the center but it will sound wider and more dispersed like in a movie theatre. Perhaps it's only best for larger rooms like mine...dunno...I've never heard it. It's one of those mysteries Ian created, tucked away on the site, waiting for someone to discover it and yell "Eureka! It's freakin' amazing!!"

I want it!

Nothing in the manual on stand-by power and it's a PITA to try and measure it safely.

I think the idea is to try and provide a smooth continuum from left through center and right, rather than having only right/center/left positionings (oversimplifying obviously).

When I went from VP100 to VP180 I found that the center signal was now "wider" (not a surprise) and that the result seemed much more natural and true to the video (that was a bit of a surprise) as a result.

"When I went from VP100 to VP180 I found that the center signal was now "wider" (not a surprise) and that the result seemed much more natural and true to the video..."

Ditto when I went from 150v2 to 160v4. Plus, much higher fidelity and understandability.

Did you all notice the five position BGC switch on the active LFR DSP? Since there are 2 DSPs, the boundary gain can be adjusted on a per LFR-basis. This might come in very handy.

Your best bet for minimal power consumption and longevity would be to use a trigger to put both amplifiers in standby mode when not in use, or turn them off altogether using the rear switch.

Each DSP consumes approximately 9W.
An ADA1500-5 in standby mode (trigger off or front panel button turned off) consumes approximately 20W.
When turned on and active, the ADA1500-5 will consume approximately 90W at idle.

Thanks,

Andrew

I love the sound of toroid magnetostriction on the 1500 in the morning. Therefore I always turn it off to get that small joy in my life.

So LFR1100 Active uses 60W even when off ...

Indeed. 58W to be exact.

Are the DSPs tuned for each speaker? Which is what I'd expect on a high end active crossover.

Over time the DSP code is bound to improve. How will these updates be handled?

Just reread Andrews comments ...
think I understand

Front power switch is similar to trigger off (20W consumed in standby)
The rear power switch is completely off (0 Watts)
Is that correct?

Does the amp shut down and power up gracefully when using the rear switch?

Yes.

I've had no problem with turning the rear switch on. I've tried it with two 1000s and one 1500. There are no clicks, pops, farts or burps. On the 1500, when you turn it on, you will hear the pleasant sound of magnetostriction in the 30 pound toroid that graces the innards.

I have noticed when the rear switch is turned off on the 1500, and the front switch is still on, for about 753 msec, I hear a high frequency squeal in my VP160 as if someone quickly choked a squirrel. It surprises me every time, and every time I have to remind myself I don't house any humans or squirrels in my 160.

Being sensitive to phantom power (especially if it's over a watt, no less 58W) I'd like to propose that:

A) the DSP have a trigger which shut's it down completely ... and if there is any chance that there might be a transient on its output then the DSP also have a trigger out which shuts down the amp before the DSP (and turns it on after the DSP is settled).

B) the Amp shut off completely after say (10min). I can only guess that this is not being done because the power supply takes a while to come back up. For people who want instant on then maybe this option is switch selectable.

Thoughts?

What you're asking for is doable but it increases part count and complexity.

relay (preferably latching) or have a separate power module (TI makes a few single chip supplies which can efficiently supply what's needed at a few mW of cost)

Mojo,

You edited your post and left my answer hanging ...

in any case ... for the few parts it takes the product is greatly improved ... if you care about wasted energy ... not to mention paying for it (but I guess in the winter it's just adding needed heat) it's a no-brainer ...

Rich

Rich, I edited while you were posting your answer. It's actually not as simple as you proposed but yes, it can be done.

This begs the question - how many squirrels have you heard being choked?

Never seen one choking on a peanut? It must be Andrew's sense of humour designing a turn-off circuit that sounds like that.

https://youtu.be/xOcVuWMP9t8?t=15

I hope Ian is OK. Last I heard, he was bruising his corpus callosum trying to integrate the various driver curves for the active LFR1100 in the digital (DSP) domain. I hope he hasn't blown a brain lobe!

All is going AWESOME!

OMG! The Listening Window and the Sound Power are ONE! Ian, you did it! You will go down in the annals of speaker history!

It's so beautiful. I can't stop looking at it. 2.5dB attenuation per decade!

I'm still looking at those damned curves. I can't believe the Directivity Index is practically zero across the entire audible range.

Hi Mojo,

Bringing the curves together like this is working in the blind listen testing too. The realism factor has gone up another notch. I am really looking forward to getting this version back down to my place.

You don't need to listen to it to know it's full of goodness. I mean, look at those curves. Compared to the passive 1100, they are far superior. I have no idea how Mattmanhasgonebutisbackdroolingandskeptical can possibly live with his passive LFRs!

Ha ... so let’s widen the window ... 20,25,30 degrees? I mean measurement window ... how wide till you see a reasonable deviation.

Even more questions
What is the test setup .... you need to have walls to reflect off of ...

Nope. No walls needed. "Just" the Axiom anechoic chamber, a turntable, signal generator, mic, and waveform recorder.

If memory serves, there are two curves posted. The red curve is the on axis curve. The blue is the average response of curves at 7.5 degree increments in both the horizontal and vertical plane, or 48 measurements in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

It is also done in the chamber to keep any effect of the sidewalls, floor and ceiling from occurring.

The red curve is the Listening Window and the blue is the Sound Power. The Listening Window is 0 to +/- 30 degrees horizontally (phi plane) and +/-10 degrees vertically (theta plane). The Sound Power is a weighted mean of a number of curves: Axial Response, Listening Window, and Early Reflections.

I don't think Ian has ever said publicly what the angular resolution of those measurements is. And for all I know, Axiom may extend these curves beyond the nominal angular ranges I've described. The weights for the Sound Power are Axiom secret sauce.

The recipe is right below. You and your whole family can sing it to the tune of "We Three Kings from Orient Are":

We six curves of Axiom are
30 years old we've come so far
every one eighteenth pi rad, an anechoic curve we add
of spinorama data not scalar.

Refrain:

O curves of tone and SPL
curves with similar shape and flare
gentle slope, low Q nope
perfect sound these curves foretell.

Direct sound real flat without any gain
"Axial Response" that is my name
simple content, most important
over all curves I reign.

Repeat refrain

A "Listening Window" nine curves mean am I
0 to +/-30 degrees across, 10 degrees down, 10 degrees high
within a dB, these curves must be
for listeneners to joyously sigh.

Repeat refrain

Image width, stability, timbre to tame
+/-40, 60, 80 across and 50 down and high's the game
most that we hear, bounce from quite near
"Early Reflections" is my aim.

Repeat refrain

A speaker's signature doth we take now
weighted mean of 70 curves is how
downward tilting, no broad wilting
"Sound Power" curve art thou.

Repeat refrain

The "DI" curve is the cash cow
the "Listening Window" from "Sound Power" take away now
closer to zero, it's a hero
listeners will procalaim a big "Wow!"

Repeat refrain

One last curve is for finesse
"Early Reflections" from "Sound Power" we minus
lateral prophylaxis, from far-off axis
"Early Reflections DI" shows polar bias.

Repeat refrain

Low DI with curves smooth and similar
disperse the sound as not to be insular
audio pornography, via sonic holography
sharp images spaced out renders them singular.

Repeat refrain

Axiom's direct radiators sound great when they're played
sound power declining 3dB per decade
if that DI, is a bit high
constant, low DI LFRs can be yours via trade.

I thought that the listening window measurement is the average of 4 off axis measurements 15 Degrees left, right, up, and down from center. I’m sure someone will set me straight if I got that wrong ...

I’m sure it’s done in the anechoic chamber but I’d bet two walls of the chamber need to be covered (at least partially) or you would not be able to measure the Omni directional effect

All the chamber walls are covered with sound-absorbing material which renders the walls acoustically invisible and hence why I said "No walls."

You don't need reflections to measure the omni-directional effect because the effect is "encoded" within the curves. When you place the LFR in a room, the speakers interact with the room and the omni-directional effect within the curves is decoded thanks to your ears-brain system in that room.

The Listening Window is (traditionally) a mean of the curves I described but as I said, Axiom may be extending the angles to more fully characterize the speaker response.

Hmmmm .... We need to know the setup to understand what we are looking at. The curves from the front firing speakers alone or the curves from the front combined with the rear reflections. I’ll bet that the off axis measurement is not going to improve much if only if it’s the front alone. If the curves are synthized from the front and rear being measured separately (I.e. the rear driver needs to face the mic) then it’s not much of a measurement. If it’s a real measurement .... how would you propose to measure it.

It's the curves from the entire speaker. You put the speaker on a turntable and rotate it horizontally and take measurements. You rotate the microphone for vertical angles. The measurements are frequency sweeps across the audible range. You generate 234,389 curves and drink your face off and smoke the good stuff for 20 days straight to make sense of all of them. Then when you do, you go to the DSP and tweak all the filter coefficients, and then go back to the chamber and do it all over again until you have the angelic curves Ian posted.

I’m going to bed ... I think you should reread my post
BTW I do undstand what Ian means when he talk about the spinorama

You want to know how the rear measurements are taken and integrated with the front.

I will see if I can clarify these two measurements. The Listening Window and the Sound Power, or Total Radiated Sound Power, are the two main curves in what has been coined the “Spinorama”. Both these curves are averages of a "family-of-curves”, or amplitude response graphs, measured in an anechoic chamber. The Listening Window will always be an average of a group of curves centred around the on-axis curve. The Sound Power will always be an average of curves taken in all directions around the loudspeaker in an anechoic chamber. Exactly which curves are used, at which degrees of steps, and using which weighting will vary a bit depending on who is doing the measuring and when. This type of research began in earnest in the 1970’s when Dr Floyd Toole began comparing various anechoic measurements to strictly controlled listening tests at the National Research Centre (NRC) in Ottawa, Canada. I was fortunate enough to have been involved in this research at the NRC for eleven years. Over the years we were able to refine the importance of the various measurements taken based on the results from the double-blind listen tests. The magnitude of this research is daunting as you need to verify consistency in the double-blind listen test results across many people and environments. A handful of companies have continued the research since the NRC days, Axiom being one of them. API being another one, which is where Andrew was before Axiom. API, because of the Mirage line, did a lot of research into the nuances of omnidirectional loudspeakers on this research. When Andrew first arrived at Axiom it was really interesting to chat about our various findings since the NRC years. Following this time Version 4 was born.

For a conventional front-firing loudspeaker the Listening Window should be linear across the frequency band and the Sound Power should have a consistent tilt downwards from 0 dB in the low frequency to around -10 dB at 10 kHz when compared to the Listening Window. For an omnidirectional speaker the way to read it is a bit different as now you have the ability in the design phase to bring the Listening Window and Sound Power closer together. In order to maintain a proper spectral balance, you cannot just bring the Sound Power curve up to match the Listening Window, instead both need to move towards each other. By creating the LFR1100 Active we had an incredible amount of control over the five driver sets which allowed us to experiment with making the Listening Window and the Sound Power the same. I think you will love the result!

"By creating the LFR1100 Active we had an incredible amount of control over the five driver sets which allowed us to experiment with making the Listening Window and the Sound Power the same."

This statement is telling us actives alone won't yield a null Directivity Index. We need active LFRs to experience Nirvana.

I'd really like to understand, in terms of soundstage, imaging, etc what the qualitative differences are between passive, active and active LFR.

The best way to look at it would be the quality of the Sound Power curve. Whether it is Active, Passive, or omnidirectional will only matter in so far as it can aid in making a better Sound Power curve. The Directivity Index is essentially the inverse of the Sound Power so a good Sound Power means a good Directivity Index too. Unfortunately, Sound Power data is very difficult to get on loudspeakers as it is generally never measured, likely because you require an anechoic chamber to measure it and it is a lengthy process to measure and calculate. In the design process getting a linear on-axis and Listening Window is pretty straightforward. But getting a nice Sound Power as well is a lot of work.

Let's address the "active speaker," and why it's so good. The first active speakers I auditioned were powered Advents in 1979. They were astonishingly good, especially in contrast to their passive brother, the larger Advent.

If one reads a lot of higher end articles on speakers, one will find a lot of love for single driver, "crossover-less" speakers.

Removing the passive crossover removes a lot of components that color the sound.

The problem with the single driver speaker is they typically cannot handle an off axis response above 5000 Hz nor do bass below about 70 Hz.

With the active LFR-1100, all these compromises disappear. The 3 6.5 inch woofers get their own amp, as do both sets of 5.25 inch mids and both sets of tweeters.

The DSP will bandwidth control the response to each driver, which means, for example, a hard kick drum at 40 Hz won't tax the amp's ability to present the mid range material.

This delivers the best of all worlds - in fact - a pair of Active LFR-1100's, ADA-1500's to run them and a pair of EP800's would make for a state of the art speaker for well under $20,000.

Ian - something to consider - can you add a subwoofer out to the DSP box? You could tailor the crossover point to the best match with the 1100's. Perhaps even a choice of 30 Hz when run ported or 50 Hz when run sealed.

Uh-oh... now you've done it.

You are right - no overnight post from Ian. Can't you see it now? "Amie, that's IT, now they want a SUBWOOFER out on the DSP!!! We are out of here!"

LOL...c'mon Craig, we have all partied at their house, would anyone want to leave that behind???

It's not a house. It's Colquhoun Audio Labs!

Like

Have you been there Mojo? He has both...and a boathouse, errr...band house!

Sounds like quite the place. Unfortunately I have never had the pleasure. I have put myself up for adoption though. I'd make a good anechoic chamber slave.

Yeah...that place is really difficult to spend any amount of time inside...cool to view when Ian was giving us the a demo, but not easy to hang out inside!

I'll gladly suffer through sensory deprivation to play with Axioms all day.

I'd like to stick my head in an anechoic chamber. Just my head. To hear my neurons firing. It would be, as Jim Morrison called it, a "bright midnight".

So, I'm still trying to get my head around this chart, Di, and widening the sweet spot

First, let’s figure out what Di really means … because my understanding and my intuition don’t seem to align.
If I understand it correctly the directivity index is the difference between these two curves (I think Di actually uses the on-axis response as the reference instead of the window but the window works). As they approach each other this index gets smaller … and at zero I think you supposedly have a perfect omni-directional speaker. Intuitively, I find that hard to to believe … the LFR is a perfect example … as a dipole, even if you could control all the drives perfectly, you are radiating along a single axis. As one approaches 90 degrees off axis you’re gonna loose the highs as they are more directional. Now you can make that up in the sound power curve by cranking the rear firing highs so they average out the sound power curve but that’s not going to make your speaker omni-directional …

Now my next question … the sweet spot ...
I sort of understand if one ignores the delay coming off the rear and side walls the rear levels will boost the missing frequencies. I can also see that the way pressures add works for you to fill in evenly. I'm kind of guessing that getting the rear firing speaker to put in the energy to fill in the spectrum as if it were omni directional may give you the frequency intensities you need to correctly fill the missing info to widen the sweet spot. But what about the delay


P.S.
I'm assuming, guessing, the sound power curve in the plot is sound power converted to dbSPL at the listening windows mic distance.

You can automate the sound power measurement... the magic words are Arduino and openbuilds (or equivalent)

DI is the difference between On-axis or the Listening Window and the Sound Power. Some manufacturers use On-axis and others use the Listening Window. I am assuming Axiom uses the Listening Window because that is what they publish. Recognize however that it's up to each designer to interpret the results as they see fit. So Axiom may use the On-axis curve to tailor the DSP filters in order to make the Listening Window "better".

"Omni-directional" is only in the context of the curves I describe in my poem above. Don't interpret "omni-directional" to mean you can sit directly in between the plane of the speakers, or behind them, and experience Nirvana. You have to be somewhere between the speakers and at a distance where the direct and reflected sounds can be heard (diffuse sound field) which may be 12 feet or more away depending on the room and the distance between the speakers. On this point, Ian has said measurements are taken circumferentially. I think this is well-beyond the SAE spinorama standard which includes the angles in my poem. It's just another example of Axiom wanting to characterize their speaker system as much as possible so they can eke out every last bit of performance.

The DSP compensates for the delay between front and rear drivers.

The Sound Power is indeed the SPL in dB at 1 meter away. I don't know how far the mic actually is.

Thought sound power is in watts and independent of pressure or distance from the object. Although related to both ... if you know one you can get the other.

I skipped your poem but I’ll have another look

Omni directional, ideally, is to radiate evenly in all directions. If I had a perfect one I’d expect to hear the same response curve no matter where I stood. A really good one would sound great no matter where I stood. A lousy one would sound equally lousy no matter where I stood. BTW I know you know I know you know ...but to be clear we are talking mono here.

Sound power can be converted to sound pressure as you say. I think though sound power is a convenient yet incorrect term because it is sound pressure that is directly measured and not sound power. But it's really tomatoes, tomatos, potatoes, potatos.

Axiom certainly didn't say they're ideal omni-directional radiators like a pulsing sphere. Just wait though. Ian will make them more ideal by putting drivers on the top, bottom and sides...LOL!

They're omni-directional to the extent they need to be in order to satisfy the spinorama.

I had a chat with Andrew yesterday about the sub-out. We think this is a good idea. We can also add a switch to the DSP that would allow you to set the High Pass crossover for the LFR to match the subwoofer. It would be for use with at least two subwoofers (right and left) as there is one DSP per channel.

Ah yes, the perfect 360-degree sound radiator. We are a still a long way off from that. I wonder how you would mount it in the room? The response curves of this device would all be identical and would need to have a similar downward tilt like we see in the LFR curves. As to how it would actually perform, all I can say is I would love to be in that blind listen test!

For the purpose of loudspeaker measurements, the Sound Power is in dB SPL. We run the measurements with the mic located two meters from the loudspeaker and then use 2 watts to bring us back to 1 watt/1 meter. The response curves that make up the resulting Listening Window and Sound Power all have their own unique characteristics but with similar trends. In the case of an omnidirectional the 90 will have the maximum downward tilt. In a conventional front firing the 90 will tend to look like the Sound Power. Technically an LFR is a Bipole design but the linearity of the front and rear off-axis responses make it operate more like an omnidirectional.

Thanks Ian.

Just curious, why does the Listening Window need a downward tilt in the first place ? I am starting to suspect that one of the reasons I keep gravitating to the bookshelf speakers is that they tend to have a flat-ish LW while the larger speakers tend to have more of a downward tilt.

Because the mids and highs are enforced within the room lending a flat in-room response rather than a boosted response.

Now this of course depends where you sit in relation to your speakers. If you are sitting near-field, you are receiving mostly direct sound and hence an attenuated mid and high response. If you are sitting in the diffuse field, the response is flatter.

like a pendent lamp ... a chain from the ceiling. Back when I was an undergrad I worked as a tech for the Dept of Electronic Music at the University of Illinois ... the head of that department designed a pair of round faceted speakers that looked to be over a meter in diameter with drivers pointing in all directions. I saw and heard it once in a concert (with a drummer) but the music was one of his compositions and ... "electronic".


I'm missing to reason to the downward tilt to the curves as I thought that only had to do with matching the sound power of a bipole ... and ditto on being included on the blind test.



In the listening window with walls in place ...

Hmmm ... makes sense ... and answers my question to Ian

In the listening window with walls in place ...

Exactly!

The interesting concept for me is the idea of designing a speaker which is designed to interact with a room rather than making a perfectly flat one. To make this work you must be delaying the front signal to get the rear signal to your ears at the same time (with in the time window of human perception). The key must be distance from front wall because any other path would be unknowable and probably too long.

This is interesting for 2 channel music to get a perfect crossover match ... but for movies one would probably want to use the processor/receiver outputs. This allows one to use the LFRs low frequency output as part of the base room smoothing equation with the subs. Or is that the thought for when the DSP high pass is off?

This concept of a speaker playing nice with the room comes from the 50s. Bose was the early pioneer who exploited the concept mostly with a lot of marketecture. While everyone, including me, laughs at the Boses, there were a lot of things he did right. I can drop my 601 series III in any room, and to the untrained ear, they sound great! In fact, if you have an open concept, and are listening to music while grazing around, they are terrific! One of the things he did right was to kill the bass. In any typical room, bass is very difficult to wrestle with and that just turns off people who want to just "plug and play". I've lent my Boses out to four different friends over the years and they love them dearly. Of course then they listen to my v4 and are blown away with what they've been missing.

The rear LFR drivers enforce the "Early Reflections" curve. When this curve is brought up closer to the level of the Listening Window, magic happens! You get an enormous sound-stage and wrap-around with virtual images to die for. It's not as simple as just slapping on some rear drivers though. The front and rear drivers have to work in concert across the mids otherwise you get attenuation in the response. Bose knew that too. That's why his "free space array" at the top of the 601s has multi-directional tweeters yet a mid-range that points forward. He could not control mid-range reflections using analog means so he chose to reflect highs only.

Like you say, there is a delay somewhere but I can't be sure where or how much. I say that because those rear drivers are also reflecting off the front wall. To understand where you need to add a delay and how much that delay should be and for what frequency range(s), you really need to characterize loudspeaker behavior all the way around. Then you look at the curves and decide what you need to boost, what you need to attenuate, what delay needs to be added and of course that is some of the secret sauce right there. The DSP makes implementing all that so easy.

Here's the poem sung to the tune of "We Three Kings from Orient Are". This is my interpretation of the spinorama from stuff I've read mostly from Floyd Toole:

We six curves of Axiom are
30 years old we've come so far
every one eighteenth pi rad, an anechoic curve we add
of spinorama data not scalar.

Refrain:

O curves of tone and SPL
curves with similar shape and flare
gentle slope, low Q nope
perfect sound these curves foretell.

Direct sound real flat without any gain
"Axial Response" that is my name
simple content, most important
over all curves I reign.

Repeat refrain

A "Listening Window" nine curves mean am I
0 to +/-30 degrees across, 10 degrees down, 10 degrees high
within a dB, these curves must be
for listeneners to joyously sigh.

Repeat refrain

Image width, stability, timbre to tame
+/-40, 60, 80 across and 50 down and high's the game
most that we hear, bounce from quite near
"Early Reflections" is my aim.

Repeat refrain

A speaker's signature doth we take now
weighted mean of 70 curves is how
downward tilting, no broad wilting
"Sound Power" curve art thou.

Repeat refrain

The "DI" curve is the cash cow
the "Listening Window" from "Sound Power" take away now
closer to zero, it's a hero
listeners will procalaim a big "Wow!"

Repeat refrain

One last curve is for finesse
"Early Reflections" from "Sound Power" we minus
lateral prophylaxis, from far-off axis
"Early Reflections DI" shows polar bias.

Repeat refrain

Low DI with curves smooth and similar
disperse the sound as not to be insular
audio pornography, via sonic holography
sharp images spaced out renders them singular.

Repeat refrain

Axiom's direct radiators sound great when they're played
sound power declining 3dB per decade
if that DI, is a bit high
constant, low DI LFRs can be yours via trade.

Rich, I don't know if these active LFRs will work in Massachusetts with that funny electrical code of yours...LOL!

The laws of physics may be a bit different down here too.

Yeah...you pilgrims brought different laws over.

Not pilgrims ... politicians... the law of physics or anything else work only as they declare them to ... at least according to them

That's the lovely benefit of democracy. You have the freedom to choose your own pains.

Off Topic
Actually the people who are hurt the most are the ones who believe ... a lot of people only listen to or only have access to one side of an issue ... so to them it's obvious what is right even if it's not true (or not the whole truth). To them they see the hand waiving a carrot in front of their face while not seeing or understanding that they will lose so much more.

This combined with a broken government is going to be our down fall if not corrected soon. .... a bit depressing ...
Let's get back to audio ...

Perhaps that is better than having so much choice, which people misinterpret as greater freedom, that it becomes a distraction rather than a benefit.

By the way, my last comment applies to audio too. You can tell by my signature how distracted I am.

So back to audio...

What is the actual difference? Between going Active and just Bi Amping?
I get there's an external crossover. Can you adjust the crossover to your own liking? Or is it each set of particular drivers needs to be powered? In their own ranges?

Would using a lower power Amp. or Tube Amp. for the highs be advisable? Similar to Bi Amping.{Tweets use little power}

I've heard some darn impressive results from Active configurations bigger dynamics and body more open.

But aside from having hundreds too thousands of Watt's per speaker. What would really be the most beneficial reasons?

Brendo, the net effects of digital, active cross-overs are about a 3dB improvement in sensitivity, improved imaging, improved soundstage and improved micro and macro dynamics.

The 3dB improvement in sensitivity is a result of the elimination of the traditional analog, passive cross-over. Yes, that's right, half the power you sink into a speaker is turned to heat by the traditional crossover. Put 250W in, 125W of that goes into heating the room as a result of the crossover.

All the other improvements are partly due to much greater control with the spinoroma (family of parametric) curves. The DSP gives the designer a lot of freedom to "flatten this" and "boost that" in a more granular manner. Phase response can also be improved. So can transient response although there is a trade-off there between transient response and frequency response. Then there is also the greater control that an external amp can have over the driver directly with the traditional crossover eliminated.

Your questions about the type of amp and the power required are very good. Axiom I am sure will eventually publish specifications for its driver arrays to make sure that customers can marry them up with their choice of amplification. Or maybe not although that wouldn't be the Ian we know who likes to give customers choice. I suppose Axiom could introduce amps that make the most of their active line and leave the present ADAs to the legacy (analog crossover) speakers. I really believe a new line of amps would make the actives shine even more and that's all I'll say about this publicly. Nothing wrong with the ADAs for the current lines though and in the interim for the actives.

I have no doubt the actives will sound significantly better. I know first hand what havoc analog filters wreak on a design as environmental conditions and part specs (due to tolerances) change. Active filters don't suffer from these limitations. You hear about better crossover parts and all that is true and I've witnessed it on the v4. But, no matter what you do, those parts drift particularly when you're pouring gobs of current into the speaker. If you listen closely, you can hear the effects. That's not your ears objecting to the SPL; that's the speaker objecting as it shifts from its design limits!

Axiom is just starting to scratch the surface with actives. Actives are a geek's haven! Ditto with LFRs.

I'll also add in here that Ian has been obsessed his whole life with eeking the maximum possible performance from his existing driver architecture. No one's told me this - all you have to do is watch what he's been doing and it's pretty darned obvious. That's another reason why he's one of my heroes. I think the actives will open up an entirely new area of research for Axiom. There is stuff happening inside those drivers that actives will naturally expose. I am not saying there's anything wrong with the drivers. I am saying that more knowledge will be gained about how to make them even better. This is the nature of scientific inquiry and the pleasure of finding things out.

That's where my confusion comes in. At some point there's still an external crossover. So wouldn't that need a chassis for the heat? Plus still limit the drivers to their desired ranges?

I also believe that the ADA Amps are Axioms own specific custom design. Around the time I became an Axiom customer 2013/2014 the blog had some in depth articles and some you tube vids. regarding creating their own design and the differences of typical class D and the ADA.

The external crossover handles everything as a digital "preamp" that separates the signals. We are talking less than a volt in terms of power at this point.

A passive crossover is taking the high powered signal from the power amp, which is where it loses the 3 dB.

In the case of the Active Speakers, each woofer/midrange/tweeter is connected to the dedicated amp that already has the response curve for the crossover sent to it from the DSP.

There are no resistors, capacitors, extra wiring nor anything else between the amp and the speakers.

Another benefit: If one is listening to music with powerful deep bass and female vocals - The mids are delivering the vocals, which won't have the amp being taxed by the deep bass.

Headroom will increase, no signal will be lost. It's all good science.

To add to Craig's comments, it is the high currents and voltages and heat liberated from the voice coils that cause part specs on the traditional crossover housed inside the speaker cabinet to drift. When those specs drift, amplitude, phase and transient response are all negatively impacted and the effects are audible.

As Craig said, the voltages and currents in the DSP-based digital filter are a lot lower. The signal voltages the DSP deals with are no larger than about 7 Volts and currents are much less than an Amp...likely one tenth of an amp. Contrast that to over 100 Volts and 40 Amps (sourced from an amp) that an analog crossover has to deal with. On top of that load, the voice coil of an HP driver reaches 200 degrees C. Some of that heat gets excreted through the sphincters, some is radiated off the glorious aluminum dust caps and the remainder is trapped in the cabinet and affects the performance of the crossover components (and the voice coil itself). These nasty effects don't take place inside the DSP box.

The DSP can also bring benefits that Axiom isn't currently exploiting. For example, by monitoring the temperature of the voice coils, the digital filter coefficients can be adjusted to compensate for the rise in resistance of the coils (as much as double) due to temperature.

As for the ADA amps, within the present industry paradigm, they are a very good value particularly for multi-channel.

What about the "active" technology, e.g. Apple's HomePod, that listens to the in-room audio and adjusts output in real time? I wonder if Axiom has experimented with that, and what it could contribute to Axiom sound.

I also still wonder if Axiom has tested the HomePod and can shed light on what Apple has, and hasn't, accomplished with their active tech in such a small package.

wschwartz, that's exactly where Axiom is heading. The road there leads to active speakers first. Can you not see Ian's product roadmap in your mind's eye?

Hi wschwartz,

The claim from Apple is that "an internal bass-EQ microphone, analyzes and compensates for the effect of the room on the bass response". The problem with this is that the microphone would need to be on you for this to work. Further you would need some sort of known bass sound to be produced by the speaker and received by the microphone to make the correction.

The best method for perfect bass that I have found to date is with Audyssey XT-32. Here are the caveats:

1. Make sure you can bypass the main speakers and only have the subwoofers eq'ed. Marantz allows this in both the 7700 and 8800 series pre-amps.

2. Make sure you follow instructions at all listening positions.

3. Make sure you select "bypass mains" in the menu.

4. Double check whether you used dynamic eq or not. Dynamic eq sets a great house curve for movies, and can be fun on AC/DC style rock, but for the most accurate, deep bass, set it to flat.

Doing the above has our EP800's flat to 11 Hz in room (yes we measured it and posted the curve at Home Theater Forum) without the EQ interfering with the performance of the main speakers.

My Onk's implementation does not allow me to by-pass the mains. I think the answer is a new pre/pro.

New item added to my bucket list

Yeah, that is definitely impressive!

Craig
Do you have any treatment to control base?
Any pictures of your room?

It's 25 x 24 with 8.5 ceiling and not treated.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/under-1000-subwoofer-review-thread.343857/%3famp=1446124323?espv=1

This is also good work by Craig. 19 months in, I continue to be very happy with my 800v4.

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/communi...2/#post-4451495

Spec says the active has a 4 ohm impedance... is that for all 5 inputs? The graph looks like it’s left over from the passive with two curves ... guess front and back (I assume the lower one is for the front ... )

Axiom has not announced the specs for each driver array. I am very curious. I think those triple HP woofers will be good to 1000W average and 4000W peak.

Regarding the amplitude response, Ian posted it on these boards. The Listening Window and Sound Power are one!

I'm wondering if the front woofers impedance is way less then 4 ohms .... in that case you may get your wish ... but ... depending on the answer your average amp may not play nice with them.

The triple HP woofer array is 4 Ohms and I think it might dip down to 3.2 Ohms in the bass region. This is no problem for an ADA-1500.

We have posted the correct Frequency Graph in the Specifications section of the product page for the LFR1100 Active now. Just need to do the Impedance Graph so it shows all five driver sections.

Hot damn. Those curves signify awesomeness! Craig, you're one fortunate dude.

Thanks Ian... do you have the nominal impedances for the 5?

What's needed are impedance curves and nominal and peak power levels for the driver arrays so listeners can decide on appropriate amplification for the wee beasties.

Actually at the moment I’m trying to figure out where my amps should go. High Impedences makes it easier to put all the heat in a well ventilated closet (I.e. use longer speaker cables).

Those woofers are gonna pull 12A nominal and 25A peak. If you're going with separate amps, I'd say put the woofer amps by the LFR. Otherwise wire them with that 0000 cable I posted.

On the other hand, you should try to keep the signal cables as short as possible to minimize interference. I think you should hire a P.E. to investigate this and come up with stamped drawings.

I figure if the wire resistance is < then say 1/100 of the nominal speaker impedance then I'm probably in pretty good shape (damping > 100).

So for an 8 ohm speaker 12AWG copper wire is good for about 25'. Run two in parallel for 4 ohms ... etc (easier/cheaper In most cases than getting wire below 10 AWG). So for the price of a 500' spool of 12 AWG copper speaker wire I'm in business as long as there are not too many 2-4 ohm connections to be driven.

I think you should get the Laplace transforms of the amp outputs, speaker inputs and cable and do a transient and spectral analysis. If these are not available, just run an impulse response to get the transfer functions. Otherwise, how could you possibly sleep at night?

Mojo,

Peak amperage numbers (and wattage numbers) are fun to throw around and I guess for those of us who like to push our systems to their limits there might be some merit to justify designing to them ...

For me, I think I'd be hard pressed to hear the distortion introduced by the speaker wire even if the damping fell well below 50 at some frequencies .... (just run the voltage divider math and convert that to db down and I think you'll see what I mean).

Mojo you have the gift of gobbledygook. A double speak man extraordinaire.

I am working on software right now that does what I described above. Not for audio gear though.

Mojo, I'm just having fun with you having fun ... My hat is off to you ... it's definitely first rate high class gobbledygook ...

Think gobbledygook is defined something like ... "sound like official tech speak without any real content" (although knowing you're working on something real gives us some context).

The problem with all that fun is that it could shut down people if they don't know you're having fun. Also sometimes the thread topic gets lost if there is too much of it. (but the latter seems to happen around here anyway ... gobbledygook or not )

All that stuff I said up above is real math. Axiom uses some of it in their DSPs. Sometimes I make up stuff to keep Alan Lofft on his toes.

You are correct that if these boards are to be used for knowledge only, I've been grossly negligent. I learned from the best like MarkSJohnson, pmbuko, Ken.C, medic8r and others.

Back to the topic at hand...impedance...which incidentally can be calculated by the FFT of the impulse response.

Mojo I believe you. And I believe everything you said about your programming project. All I was sayin, was when you take meaningful words from one context (in this case your project) and stick them some place else (like this thread) without setting context then you get gobbledygook....

All that stuff I said is real and you can do it on your audio equipment. It just sounds like gobbledygook...LOL! My project has 83 people working on that gobbledygook alone. I wish it was audio; it would be far easier.

These speakers may just make winter tolerable.

Life is good. The Magico dealer who tossed me out for challenging him to a double blind test between his $250,000 Magico/McIntosh system to my $15,000 LFR-1100 based system will probably not even let me in the store.

And I was REALLY nice, too!

That would be a very interesting comparison. Who do you speculate would come out on top?

The Magico speakers were quite good - But they didn't seem to live up to the hype. It is hard to even speculate - The store is 100 miles away from my place. It was funny though, when I explained that Axiom makes Bryston's speakers, and that the Bryson line up is worth looking at, the manager just got irritated.

Hmmm...would that Magico set-up be 16.7 times as good as the LFR set-up? Where's Mattman?

High end audio seems to be a lot like high end anything else only more so ...
One pays a very large tax for “pride of ownership” which should not be confused with performance

Axiom is high end audio. They sound like high end audio.

This is true - high end audio is probably the worst. This store also sells Goldenear - the dullest sounding high end speaker I ever heard. Before he got pissed at me, the manager and I had a laugh that over half of their Goldenear speakers sold were based on reviews and the customers didn't even listen to them.

The Magico stuff is ALL about snob appeal.

Mojo ... let me see if I can narrow that down ... esoteric high end ... usually highly marketed, usually visually stunning with fine workmanship and over the top materials, usually in limited supply, sometimes lunatical in function, and always priced beyond the reach of the typical guy (at least with any sanity) as the price justifies its value ...

maybe someone else can come up with a better def

Hmmmm...yeah...high end is not necessarily synonymous with high fidelity.

I'm chilling with my M50s by candlelight while thumbing my new Opinel no. 8. Low end audio has never sounded so good!

I'm looking again at the curves Ian posted. They're a real piece of work. Declining 3dB/decade from 100Hz to 20KHz.

Besides this, I still can't get over the fact that each active LFR will be capable of somewhere between 124dB and 130dB dynamically at 3 feet. The ADA-1500 should easily be able to deliver the requisite 4800W. The 1500 I have is peaking out at 2800W on my M100s and those of course have an analog crossover which presents more load. As I've said before, that 2800W I'm measuring may not be a true peak due to my meter.

just reread this....Your sales guy knows his main customer is not the type who trusts his own ears to evaluate excellence. Remember in this realm excellence is dictated by the price tag (and that someone somewhere said it was excellent)

No point in doing a bind test ... he obviously is not going to sell you.

the LFR would be of no interest to him as he could not sell it ... it’s not expensive enough to be any good and definitely not expensive enough to impress. He would probably lose a costumer just trying to convince them it was better then the $$$ speaker. Not only that but one Magico sales most likely brings in 10 to 20 times what an LFR sale would.

If you were that sales guy you’d probably throw yourself out

rriev - You actually just described why audio stores are almost extinct. They no longer serve the customer - they are merely looking for the quick buck.

As an auto dealer who also spent 2 years working in an audio store when audio was HUGE, I know how much we have had to change in the last 35 years.

For example, when our parent company (in my case, FCA) comes out with a new product, the manufacturer will bring the most esteemed competitors to what is known as a "ride and drive."

We get the chance to drive our competition's vehicles and compare them to ours. We have embraced a well educated consumer and LOVE it.

Audio, on the other hand, went to opposite direction.

More people get cars and really understand them. It’s easy to experience how well it accelerates, corners, etc. A lot of things about a car are easier to quantify (0 to 60 in xx sec) ... It leaves less room for snake oil ... it’s still there just not as blatant.

I think audio is much harder to understand. It not obvious to the average buyer what to even listen for (How many go into a store with test tracks of music in hand). It’s much harder to quantify and a lot of what is quantifiable takes some in depth understanding. How many of your friends understand what dB is and what it means to be 3,6, or 10db down. Even something as quantifiable as power is complex. A 200 watt receiver is what? Most assume 200 per channel all channel driven but that’s never the case (unless its stated)... There is a reason the snake oil is rampant.

Should add “into whatever speaker they happen to own” here.

It appears that the LFR-1100 actives will ship next week.

Europe is reporting pin-point imaging on a massive 3D soundstage with life-like micro and macro-dynamics. That's for the fully active bipolars. So the LFRs should be better.

Mojo - Can you direct to the article about bipolar active speakers in Europe?

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149861.260

Aug 26 post from Dario.

Thanks! It's going to be fun!

Is the barn ready for me and bLuLu?

No, but we have a pretty good tent - only 3 holes in the roof.

Seriously - my first experience with active speakers was in 1979 - it was a pair of Powered Advents. They were the Advent Largers with two 80 watt amps - one for the woofer and one the tweeter. There was NOTHING like it for clarity.

This system is going to be a challenge. We have two pre-amps available: The Marantz 7703 and the PS Audio Stellar Gain Pre-amp DAC.

As we get to winter, I may add a tube preamp. These speakers will pretty much be my winter audio product. They will get no special treatment. They are promising a lot, and better deliver.

Here is a link to the PS Audio Stellar Gain DAC / Pre-amp.

What is great about this unit is it brings an incredible amount of 2 channel performance for under $2000. It also elevates the OPPO players with its built in DAC (for CDs).

https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/ps-audio-stellar-gain-cell-dacpreamplifier/

The Advents did not have a digital cross-over. Why/how will this system be a challenge?

The challenge will be in comparing these speakers to live music. We do a lot of "live band" stuff in fall/winter. Jazz, college performances for our son and daughter... the LFR-1100's as active speakers have some pretty lofty goals.

Here are some quotes from the product page:

"The most realistic-sounding speakers ever? Indulge your wildest audio fantasies with these hear-it-all wonders.


Voices are crystal-clear. Cymbals shimmer and bass can be felt, not just heard."

The initial testing will be done with the PS Audio pre-amp and the LFR-1100 actives. Will the bass be felt? Can they reproduce my daughter's opera voice accurately?

"...have both a wide-open 3D soundstage and pinpoint detail. They provide the most immersive, transporting musical experience you have ever experienced."

Ian has said there is a very noticeable difference between the active and passive LFRs. This could be it, Craig. It could be the panacea you've been searching for.

Craig, I'd really like to know if there is an audible difference between your Marantz and PS Audio. BTW, do you know why Paul McGowan can't ever give straight answers to the simple questions his viewers ask?

Mojo - Not sure about Paul - I got my stuff from him in March, 2018, and was active on their forum for a while. It's an odd place - sometimes with posts getting deleted for no apparent reason. I haven't posted there in over a year.

The pre-amps will be swapped out, and a lot of other things done. This includes using the passive LFR-1100's as the rear channel in a 4.2 channel system.

I had mentioned to Ian that I preferred the LFR's without a center channel (ours is matched to the M100's) and he's planning on trying this out at his place with his actives. There are a LOT of ideas to pursue this winter.

Sounds like you need a sabbatical.

I find this idea particularly interesting. I'd love to get rid of my center.

My VP180 takes up valuable room under the screen. An LFR virtual center would free up that room and has the added benefit of raising the center image height to be the same as the LFRs.

Craig, have you created an active LFR1100 test plan yet?

The first thing will be getting the whole system organized and some pictures posted. We can't post pictures in threads, correct?

There's apparently a mystical way to post images in threads.

You can find all the magic under the "Forum Help" menu / "What UBBCode can I use in my posts?"

you will need a link to a picture off site ... and put

[img] link [/img]

Where you want your pict
Of course I've never tried it soooo ... lets try the red M3's



Much better then a lime mankini

I'd love to see those red M3s in lime mankinis.

Rriev - that is how I have always done it with photobucket. They changed their rules, so I need a different place to post the pics for the link.

Can someone help out the "un-nerd?" I need a new host.

I use Google Drive. I think some here use imgur.

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/gC3yaPU

[img] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CtzeL9f8mXd_Glgcbi9joxtTc8gp-z26/view?usp=drivesdk [/img]

Rich's method didn't work

Think you need a link to a picture file and not a page which displays a picture ...

I don't think that's possible with Google Drive.

FWIW, when I play Lucky Chops - Coco Live off of YouTube through my Chromecast Video, I can feel the bass in the stacked M100/M5 combo with the 800v4 off. This is at reference level (0 on my Onk) through the 1500.

I can feel it even more in PLII with the 1500 driving the M100/M5 and the 160v4 and the 1000 driving the dual QS10HPs.

Of course when I turn on the 800 in gut punch mode, it's a whole different experience.

Ian,

A couple of questions regarding the active LFR.

1. Is it recommended to send the same amount of power to all 5 speaker sections or more to woofer? If not equal can the sensitivity of the sections be adjusted to match amplifier power?

2. Related to Q1 could you use say a class A amp for the tweeter and midrange, and maybe higher power Class D for the woofer sections?

3. Can you comment on basic room setup and acoustic treatments since there is rear firing drivers?

4. If there is future upgrades to the DSP section can these be updated/downloaded in the field by the customer?

5. With the software flexibility do you envision that this speaker will be upgradeable?

Thanks,

Current happy Axiom user...but thinking of major upgrade:)

Steve

Hi Steve,

The amp power ratings can be different as long as the gain is the same. All of our ADA amplifiers have a gain of 29dB.

No problem to mix amp classes, again as long as the gain is the same.

For an LFR reflections are your friend. Unless you are experiencing a particular room problem, I would recommend no added acoustical treatment.

The software can be updated from a header on the DSP board. It is possible to do an upgrade in the field but we recommend sending the DSP box to us for code updates. We can check the output this way also to ensure it has the code properly.

Thanks

Ian

The active speakers are far ahead of others' products. I hope Axiom invests in understanding how the FOC can be adjusted to suit various placements within the room. For example, most everyone places them against the back wall with a bit of room to the side-walls. That placement impacts soundstage depth for sure and maybe even width depending on room size. Wouldn't it be amazing if the DSP could adjust the curves to compensate for non-ideal placement so everyone could enjoy a 3D soundstage? Boundary gain compensation is one thing but boundary stage compensation would be so revolutionary!

A big day today for Craig!

I'm gonna do it! I'm going active LFR1100s. I'm thinking natural, low gloss walnut.

Awesome!!!

Wow. Didn't see THAT one coming.

yup ... total blind side

Guys, I've now discovered Axiom's wood. Holy crap! All these years, I've just skirted by it. I'm going wood EVERYTHING! Geez, it's gorgeous. And those are just the photos. Wait 'till all my new gear arrives. I'll be all over it. My friends and BFF too! I really love what nature produces. And Axiom. If I could buy everything they made, I would.

Anyone have the number for Axiom Anonymous ...
think we have a bad case here

Naked real wood M5HPs (Rosewood, natural stain, piano coat), and a naked ADA1500. You never knew about their wood finishes?

That rosewood looks mighty fine on those M5s. And they need that 1500 because they're little Watt piggies. But they look and sound so damned good!

I knew wood was available but my priority always was performance over form. I'm so satisfied with the former that I've been thinking about the latter. I've also finally made my place my own so I look at my speakers in a new light.

Rich, you're right. Ever since I upgraded my centre to the 160v4, it's been one upgrade after another. That centre was like it came from a different company compared to the 150v2. That experience, Craig's reviews and Dale Rasco's measurements made me take a calculated risk on the 800v4. From there, I knew the M5s were winners from the soundstagehifi review, Craig's impressions and the curves Axiom posted. The QS10 was admittedly a gamble and then I was completely blown away when I heard both. Folks say "blown away" is being overly-exuberant and previous versions were similarly good and I proclaim BS on that at least comparing ti and v2 against v4. The M3, M50 and M100 purchases were all curiosity on my part. When I heard all these in my home, it hit me that Axiom figured out the speaker formula. This is beyond engineering. It's science. It demands the highest levels of respect.

So now I'm thinking walnut will look great in the main room for active LFRs and rosewood will add a nice accent in the living room.

Are you trading up or keeping everything?

Trading up. I'm really struggling about my QS10s and 800. I'm thinking of trading them in for real wood. My hesitation is that they sound so good, I don't want to mess with them, you know?

I'm also thinking of getting M22s in Rosewood to try in the living room. It bothers me that I haven't heard v4 M22s. It's really the only Axiom v4 speaker besides the M2 that I haven't heard.

Blair, my living room problem is eating at me:

- The M5 gives me wonderful detail. Broad soundstage. Can't do much about a lack of deep depth of soundstage because I can't move them too far into the room; but the depth is actually pretty good. Highs in that room were a tad too much but with some changes I've made in the room layout, the highs are now perfect. The big problem is the 2.0 bass. It's too much when I turn it up. So I can dial it down by 6dB and it's much better. But then I have to turn it up when I listen quietly. I have to make these adjustments via the Chromecast and it's a PITA.

- The M50 is wonderful in there. But I miss all the M5 detail...LOL!

- The M3 is great but when I crank it, I can hear it straining. Not a fault of the M3. With a sub crossed to it or at saner levels, it's just great.

- The M100, while terrific in the dynamics and detail (more so than the M5), just can't give me the imaging the M5 does. But damn, if I wanted to rock out upstairs and let the neighborhood know about it, that's the speaker to get.

So now I'm left wondering about the M22. It appears highly flat in the Axiom specs. This is one thing I really like about the M50 too. Since the M22 craps out at around 65Hz or so, it might tame the bass problems in my room while maintaining imaging, detail and soundstage.

At least this is how I am justifying the purchase to myself.

Blair, I could say fukitol for the living room and live with no soundstage or imaging by going to a Force or a Freedom. Then I could take it to my homies for a good time. But I know damned well, when I'm chilling in the living room, laughing at the show my neighbors put on outside my window, I'll wish I had some holography going on. You know what I mean?

Mojo, all I can think of is that you live in a nudist colony with all the entertainment you get out your window.

For the record, Mojo did say yesterday the Active 1100's would be his last speaker. Today, he's talking about getting M22's.

Hey Mojo ... Ian is working on a new ribbon design that will have quad opposed 10 inch subs (2 per side), a 1600 watt subwoofer amp ... Quad 6.5 inch woofers - Triple 5.25 inch mids front and back and a new, Colquhoun Labs Ribbon Tweeter array front and back.

Full DSP with 1500-2's (five of them) for a package price of $28,000.

A nudist colony provides far less entertainment than the hillbillies beyond my yard.

That was yesterday, Craig. Today I have a new speaker roadmap.

That speaker Ian is working on needs more cowbell.

Is it wrong to get a pair of speakers with different finishes for each?

Ebony and ivory ... Live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano keyboard ..

I was thinking walnut for the left and rosewood for the right.

Hard to resell them

Ok, how about rosewood for the faces and walnut for the remainder?

Forget the finish and just dress them up

Right. In mankinis.

With the new "I can wait 21 days" option, the entry price for Active LFR-1100's in real wood plus 2 ADA-1000-5's is $7962.

That is a shockingly good value!

Are they firing straight forward?

It don't matter if they're toed or straight. The best way I can describe it is, the M5s "paint" images behind them in a very uncanny way. I've found this effect is lessened if the tweeters are at ear height or above. I swear I can "see" the performers. Others have made the same comment. I get this effect both in the main room and living room although because they are pushed closer to the front wall in the living room, the effect is lessened.

As I've said before, those relatively small M5s have no business sounding the way they do in my relatively large room. Listeners are stunned to take off their blinders and discover such a small speaker throwing such a soundstage. They really are remarkable.

I'll just add that the M5s completely disappear sonically. I haven't been able to achieve that with the M100s.

This must be room specific?
My towers don't exist, don't give away their position. And with the right recording and no competing noise you wouldn't believe my discription if you hadn't experienced it before.
Disappearing has an interesting caveat in that when using the center during a 5.1/7.1 playback the audio seems off, is not located at the speakers(actor's) mouth as shown on screen. I hadn't noticed this before getting these towers.
Probably wouldn't matter if I wasn't 12' from a 9-10' wide AT screen.

It must be room-specific because the M100 disappear for Ian and I think Craig and of course you. I've tried everything in multiple rooms.

Its a long shot but have you checked the internal connections at the back of the drivers?
When mine arrived someone had reversed the wiring on one driver. Shouldn't be possible I know but it did. They had forced the smaller terminal onto the larger connection pin.

I haven't but it's a great idea. I did run a pink noise test and it was good. It's hard to believe there's a polarity reversal based on the imaging I hear. A world apart from the M80v2. Lol! I do run the M100 over the M5 in my main room.

Carbon fiber.

Hee hee...

It just hit me...
LFR makes sense for 2.0 AND in multi channel the Center IS the underline the most important. So they say.
Now I want to try.

Me too! Although according to Craig, a center is likely not needed with active LFR. But I want to try anyway before I die. I don't want to have that regret on my deathbed.

Rich, have you decided on amplification for the A-LFR1100?

The intro package was an offer I could not refuse ... An ADA1500-5 for each speaker

Go big or go home. I can't see you having any problems with that!

To clarify I meant only using the LFR center for mutli channel...the L and R would be non LFR.

Ha ... asked Ian about the other option listed

You know the "insane" one: 2 ADA1500-2 and a ADA1500-1 per speaker ...
He felt it appropriate for parties ...

So ... If you ever go to one of Ian's parties ... I would suggest you not stand anywhere close to the speakers without hearing protection and perhaps a fire extinguisher.

Those come with the subspace thermic injector option to shunt heat away from the coils via tetryon particles.

The setup for his boathouse party at the 30th anniversary was insane..live band through multiple M80's, will see if I can find the pictures.

Mike - and for the 35th, my actual pair of LFR-1100's were part of the PA system. If memory serves, there was also a pair of M100's in the mix.

It was pretty impressive for consumer loudspeakers to fill a room of 100 plus the way these 4 speakers did.

That's right, I remember that as well. We had the prototype Axiom Air connected to the ADA's and LFR1100's and dual 800's and people took turns using their phones to play music. I remember chatting politics and audio with you at breakfast!

Whenever Ian mentions "appropriate for parties" it's worth asking whether he is talking about indoor parties or parties where the listening area is a mid-sized lake.

When's the 40th?!?!?!?

The 40th is next year - not sure there will be a party.

The Brystonians are reporting the active Model T is beyond words. Outstanding clarity, pin-point 3D imaging and an immense, immersive soundstage.

That T however is not an LFR. I've seen the amplitude response chart and, unlike the active LFR, the listening window and sound power curves are not one. The T curves are also not as linear and don't quite decline at 3 dB/decade. It also appears to me from the specs, that the active LFR can reach higher SPLs and is a tad more efficient. This tells me the LFR is indeed the speaker that is likely to elicit a more emotional response from the listener.

I think it's a great gesture on Ian's part to discount the actives so much and give more people the opportunity to experience them in real wood veneer no less. I'm not sure another consumer speaker with this kind of performance can be had at any price.

I'm eventually going to replace the passive M5s with active M5s in the living room. I'll be using an ADA-1000-6 and a DSP that hopefully incorporates at least one subwoofer output. If the active LFR1100s are so much better than the active M5s, I will seriously consider upgrading the active M5s.

If those active M5s were available today, I'd buy them. Is there anyone else out there interested in these?

think if you really like the active LFR1100 that you maybe better off going to an active LFR660 then a active M5 (if they show up in the future).

That's a good thought Rich but I don't think Axiom will develop an active LFR660 or active M60. BTW, the active LFR660 would need as many amp channels as the active LFR1100.

I'm not sure I'd even try an active M60. John said he liked his M5 better than his M60. I can't explain it and I have no data or listening impressions to go by but I have this gut feel the M5 sounds more refined than the M60.

I have no doubt BTW I will like the actives more than any other speaker I've heard. I don't know however if they will fully satisfy my need for deep, wide and 3D-like soundstage with pin-point imaging. So I hope Axiom is working on the active LFR1100 successor. :p

Think Axiom could do well if for under a $1K they came out with a 10 channel amp that's sub 100W/channel.

If one did 75W/channel continuous into 8 ohms, all channels driven then the 4 ohm woofers could steal extra current from the other channels if they needed it (for 150W continuous or more depending on the Voltage on the rails). Given the extra efficiencies of active speakers I think this would be a great trade off ... and ...

I bet it would satisfy 95% of the people out there (i.e. those who listen at reasonable levels in moderately sized rooms) ...

Note: IMO this would be more power then 99% of receivers "spec'ed" in the 125W/150W range (it's amazing how one can get 100W/ch, 2 channels driven with a power draw at the wall of 60W ... one of the more egregious specs I've seen)

As a side note for Ian and Andrew (and I expect that they know this already) ... There are many really good inexpensive chips (like the TDA3255) which can do 2ch/chip at 100-125Watts ... and if your willing to drop down to half that ... 4ch/chip ... most of the cost in a unit like this is in the power supply ...

For a full-on experience, you need:

HP drivers: 700W x 2 channels --> 65V rails into 3 Ohms
mids: 175W x 4 channels --> 46V rails into 6 Ohms
highs: 30W x 4 channels --> 16V rails into 4 Ohms

That's a 2.5KW toroid to do the above and you are approaching the limit of a 20A outlet. The toroidal transformer cost for that beast alone is 300 bucks in large quantities.

Now if you are using a sub to off-load the LFRs, the equation changes quite a bit. You could probably get away with 50W x 2 for the HP drivers and go with a toroid of the size in the 1000.

It can't be done for $1000 and be profitable. Andrew, prove me wrong.

On the surface, that TPA-3255 chip looks absolutely awesome! And it's less than 10 bucks for 2000 pieces. I think Andrew should dig into that one.

Mojo, you have a way of twisting statements ...
I’m stating that a compermise amp may enable more people to try a smaller A-LFR like an active LFR660. And suggesting that for most people who are not going to crank their system it maybe a plausible way to make the jump. So ...

10 channels at a nominal 75 watts a piece would probably take a 900 to a 1000 watt supply.
There are other trade offs to save money like lowering the headroom to 2x instead of 3x. Or going with a really good switching supply keeping some extra storage capacity.for both headroom and extra filtering.. lower rails means lower heat and smaller heat sinks ... etc etc

Agreed, Rich.

I calculated I need no more than 446 peak Watts per channel in my large room at a 12 foot MLP.

There could be significant savings by combining the DSPs and "lesser" amps directly into the speaker. If Axiom can drive significant volumes, the A/Ds, D/As and DSPs can all be FPGAd.

I was thinking that both DSPs and Amp would be in the same box ... save on power supplies, cases and maybe DSPs ... although If you split them into two boxes then then we are talking about a 500W supply for each ... which could be a savings (Since I don't have any $ numbers I can't really say).

Putting them in the speaker works but in both cases ...

There is an advantage to a separate amp ... you can upgrade the amp without trading in the whole system. Also you get to use the 10 channel amp for something else if and when your upgrade/sell/trade in/retire the LFRs. It's gonna come in handy for that 11.4.14 channel surround system we are all going to have in a few years ...

Agreed. A lot of pros and cons. We need software-defined audio hardware.

One more thought on this. ... a “you have clipped” led which latches for a few seconds so you know that your playin’ it too loud ... maybe call it a “you need to upgrade” led

Rich, you can hear the silence when a channel shuts down.

Which channel is that ... there are 5 per speaker ... when the main woofer cuts out and you have a funny sounding speaker .... not so sure your gonna say...oh, I’m clipping? Maybe if one amp clips all 5 should shut down

Think most people would appreciate knowing they are asking too much of their equipment then to start worrying about what happened and is there something wrong with it (that’s how returns happen when nothing is wrong with the product)

You know which channel is clipping. It's the one that supplies the woofer. It's always the woofer because the HP woofer is a fat, greedy, little swine. That woofer array is 3 Ohms and gobbles 750W.

By the way, that's 750W average. 3000W dynamic.

Mojo, you're a knowledgable user ... a lot of people would suspect the speaker was bad.
A little bitty led might give them a clue as to what happened ...
(and it just a little logic off a couple of lines from the chip.)

Here's the thing, Rich. It may be possible to easily drive LEDs if there are any outputs left but that doesn't mean just because one can it should be done.

For a 1000-8, it's 8 drive lines (2 from each double-sided amp board), a common, 8 holes in the faceplate, more work for Andrew that takes him away from more important stuff, more work for manufacturing and more work for production testing. And it's not just 8 LEDs and their biasing resistors. It's also an MOV and cap to ground for each LED for static discharge protection because you know someone is gonna rub their socked feet on the carpet and discharge at least one of their fat fingers through an LED. You don't want that discharge current flowing back to the amp boards hence the caps and the MOVs will clamp what could be as high as a 5kV discharge to a safe level. On top of all that, that's 9 more wires in a unit that already has too many for my liking. Every wire is a potential radiating or conducting antenna.

I'd say all that would be worth it if it wasn't for the fact that it would only be used once to alert the listener. Once the listener knows about it, it wouldn't be needed again.

Something like this can be covered in the manual. It's very easy to perceive a protected channel even in my 5.1 set-up.

Oh ho ho. Rich is writing his rebuttal.

Put a network adapter in the amp and it could order the upgrade for you.

Chuckle...

I was thinking about what gotcha's were involved with a moderately priced amp which would clip at very loud volumes (moderate for you) and how that would be noticed by users. BTW A single led would light if any channel went into clip. (Think open collector)

As for reading manuals ... 25% of the world will tosses them with the packaging, 73% will throw them in a drawer for a few years before tossing them and 1.98% might read a a bit before they put it in that drawer to eventually be tossed in a ...

Face it not many love to curl up with a good manual at night ... even with a hot cup of cocoa ... I know Mojo ... it's hard to image ...


Note: Of the people who actually read about the speaker sounding funny if things clip ... 50% of them will forget and give the speaker a one star review for being flaky at loud volumes ... the others will probably blame the amp

Yup

A single LED is much better because it is bringing us ever closer to zero.

Regarding your question about how users would react, do you have an ADA? The first time mine went into protection, I was like "Whoa!" and my head popped up. I actually have never heard the kind of protection the ADA has. I knew it was protected but I didn't know what to expect. I was very pleasantly surprised when I realized what happened. Kudos to Axiom on that one!

It is difficult for me to imagine someone NOT enjoying a manual. I read them all with a very critical eye. I've read some excellent ones where you could tell some engineer who had real passion for the product and the industry s/he was in wanted to make sure users felt their passion through the manual...LOL! Most though are deplorable tripe.

BTW, there is a single LED on the ADA faceplate today. There are multiple LEDs inside the chassis. The power LED on the faceplate was evaporating my retina and Andrew fixed that. Nonetheless, I put a sticky over it because although no longer unsafe, it's still annoying to all.

BTW, do you want a lamp test switch to test that single LED? Otherwise how could you be sure that it's gonna light up when you push the amp too hard?

Agreed every manual needs at least one run through. I normally save all mine in a letter box. Regardless of type.

If you have an ADA just set the volume limiter in your AVR. I keep mine at reference as a precaution. Even at that level {Reference}I've not managed to clip or trigger my ADA1250. Thanks Mo, Good to know it will just shut off if ever overly pushed.

It temporarily cuts out very smoothly. No clicks or pops. Try it.

Made it up to see the fine folks at axiom last Friday. I picked up my 2nd EP500 and a pair of QS10s. . Next I'm looking for a prepro. Audio show is on in Toronto the weekend looking forward to just looking no purchasing. Ran out of Audio cash for a bit.

RJ

How do they sound, RJ?

Mojo ,
OK Have not had much time to give to listen to them for long.I did move the QS8s forward 3ft. Im thinking of moving the QS10s for side duty and QS8s in the back any thoughts on this? How much improvement do you feel a preprocessor would help Vs my Yamaha RX850A ? I see you are trading in all you gear.

RJ

I have never been able to get rear speakers to do anything for me. I've tried all kinds of speakers and types. One was 13 feet away and the other 11 feet. As you know, when I went from side QS8 to QS10, the difference was astonishing. Then when I powered the QS10 from an ADA-1000, that was another step up when I listened closer to reference levels.

As for your Yammie vs. a prepro, if your room is acoustically "good", then you may not hear a significant difference. I'm willing to bet though you have a low frequency-challenged room like the rest of us. When I got my Onk with Audyssey XT32, it was a huge upgrade. If you get a prepro with XT32, ARC or Dirac, you'll be in for a hell of a surprise. I hear ARC is much better than XT32. Your YPAO calibration is frankly at the bottom of the technical barrel.

You need to consider the bigger picture with this decision though. Do you have enough power and how can you be sure? If not, maybe you can get a Denon with XT32 for a relatively low price and think about getting amplification. If you have enough power, maybe put the money towards a better processor with ARC or Dirac.

There's another thing to consider though. When I went from v2 to v4, I found Audyssey made less of a difference. I still like it better with Audyssey engaged but it taught me that a more refined speaker plays nicer with the room. So maybe the active LFRs won't need EQ at all. So there's that but I know that doesn't make the decision easier for you.

Regarding power, I used to think I had plenty with my Onk because when I turned it up, it fatigued me and hurt my ears. What was doing the fatiguing though was not the volume but the distortion. The immense envelopment and emotion I get now with the ADAs is incredible.

Now that I wrote all of this, I seem to recall you have at least one ADA so you might have enough power.

Mojo,

I have the ADA 1500 3 channel powering the M100s and the VP180. I was thinking of the Marantz 8802A It is to bad everyone is far away. I am not as well versed in this type of audio . I am more than capable ion setting it up. I guess if it sounds good to me and my wife its all good. I do know if I buy a pre pro I will need another amp. ADA 1000 ok to run 4-6 speakers ? My Yamaha set all the front and QS10s to large I set them to small.
Question cross over settings. for all me speakers ? I will look later to see were they are set.
RJ

Mojo
I was thinking of a Parasound halo 5 preamp it has a home theatre bypass. Problem no were to hook kit up the ADA has take the only spot for a serrate amp.

RJ

Hang on. Before we work on solutions, let's first figure out what the problem is.

Set all your cross-overs to 80. It will be easier on your Yammie.

How far do you and the missus sit from the fronts and sides? And what is the length, width and height of your room?

Ok,
Room is 17' x 18' ceiling 7'.5".
Fonts are 11' from listening position
Backs are 30" above our head 6' apart (QS8s) just switched them around
Middle QS10s - 58" off floor 8' from from listening position.
I was just listening too the surrounds from The Yammie ugg not so good very flat tinny.
All speakers are set at 80hz now. subs does not show .Back of sub is set at max 150hz. What do you set the sub phase at?

RJ

I just set up all distances manually YPAO measurements are off. I measured and input the distances, Set all to 80htz.
RJ

You need to run YPAO so it can set the levels. Unless you do that manually with an SPL meter. You can always check and adjust distances later.

Not sure why the surrounds are tinny. Did they sound tinny with the QS8?

The sub phase is very location-dependent. There's a manual procedure to optimally set phase. You need an SPL meter and an 80Hz test tone. You play the tone on the M100 only, note the reading and then play just the sub. Adjust the phase so the sub reads the same as the M100. That's it.

Your 1500-3 is over-kill for your setup. You really need nothing more than a 1000-3 because your fronts are quite sensitive.

I would not get the Parasound in your case. I would get a receiver like an Anthem. It incorporates amplification that you can use for the surrounds. Most awesome is the ARC EQ built into the Anthem. You also get a high quality microphone unlike your Yammie. You run those measurements RJ, and I think all Anthem owners on here will tell you that it's gonna sound like a Sorcerer worked some magic on your set-up.

There may be other, similar options to the Anthem that I am not aware of. I know though Anthem owners are very happy. And they are Canucks to boot!

You may want to think about getting a 1000-4 for your surrounds at some later stage but I really dont think you'll need it with the Anthem for your room size and speaker distances.

And you don't need the Marantz. Just replace the Yammie with the Anthem.

BTW, that Yammie is powerful enough for your surrounds. I suggested the Anthem because of the ARC EQ which I think will clean up the sound immensely and put your system on an entirely different level.

Make sure your Yammie is not set to 4 Ohms. That could be why it's tinny.

Thanks for the reminder, I need to register! Sunday I will be at the airport, so I will drop in and wander around.

Mojo,
It is set to 8ohms- my Av will only go 8ohms or 6ohms.

Good, RJ.

Steve, I just noticed your photo of the naked 1500. It looks real clean under the cover. No cables snaking around all over the place.

Yes, I was amazed how tight things are under there!

I'm gonna have another cappuccino and celebrate the tidiness of that 1500.

I've been wondering for a few years now how Axiom sets up the spinorama for the LFRs.

The same way they do for the M100's.

I agree that makes sense from a system perspective. I would think though you'd want to understand the contributions from each of the rear and front.

That's what the measurements do.

I'd spin it as a system and take data. Then mute the fronts, spin it some more to get the data for the rear. Subtract the data from the two spins to get the front contribution. The subtraction has to take place on a per-curve basis of course.

That's what you meant, right?

No. You are measuring it as a system. The data is coming from the front and rear for the entire measurement. If you want the front contribution only, do a pair of M100's.

I do the spin for each driver set and the complete system. This is six spins for an LFR1100 Active. This gives a view of all the on and off axis responses in play. Then things get tedious as you need to work out how to combine these to give you both the on and off axis summing you are trying to achieve. As to how many more spins that will take is anyone's guess. For the LFR1100 Active it was around 80 with double-blind listen testing in-between a bunch of them.

Ian - Is the sound power curve as shown the complete system? Or is it the complete system plus the individual driver sets "spliced in?"

The sound power curve is the complete system, just as you would listen to them at home.

Thanks, Ian. The development protocols were outstanding.

I'm curious if the driver cross-over filter slopes for the active are more aggressive.

The best word for these slopes would be "customized", as we are after a combined off-axis response as opposed to a dB per octave. The amount of "customizing" that can be done when you are fully active is increased dramatically as you have a DSP at your disposal for every crossover point.

Aye, Ian. They are BESPOKE for the active LFRs! They have curves only an engineer or audiophile could love.

Craig, I need to know RIGHT NOW if I should buy a second set of active LFRs complete with dual 500s and ADAs for the living room?

YES!!!

Mojo ... you are one crazy dude ...

Why, thank you Rich.