LFR1100 Active

Posted by: Ian

LFR1100 Active - 03/30/19 05:18 AM

As some of you already know we have been working on an Active version of the LFR1100. The advantage to the active version is twofold. Since we have a DSP for each speaker controlling the five groups of drivers (Front Low, Front Mid, Front High, Rear Low, and Rear High) we are able to create a more refined family of curves in the "Spinorama" to achieve a new level of accuracy. There is also the advantage of being able to achieve a higher maximum dynamic power reproduction by eliminating the internal crossovers and being able to dedicate an amp channel to each of the five driver groups. It is very exciting to see it finally coming to fruition.

Posted by: brwsaw

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/30/19 02:09 PM

Like
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/30/19 03:07 PM

Wow ... once you have experienced a dedicated amp for each set of drivers with no crossover, regular speakers just won't "do."

The problem is we love our 1100's. Ian, you are a troublemaker.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/30/19 03:19 PM

I need M5 and M100 to LFR upgrade kits.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/30/19 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By craigsub
Wow ... once you have experienced a dedicated amp for each set of drivers with no crossover, regular speakers just won't "do."

The problem is we love our 1100's. Ian, you are a troublemaker.


Oh please Mr. Chase. Describe for me what I will experience.

I've written out the Laplace transforms for active and passive speakers on the napkins in front of me and clearly see how poles and zeros will shift on the root locus. For the life of me though, I can't resolve the synaptic response eigenvalues to determine my emotional response.

So please tell me. Will I experience a rhapsodic rapture?
Posted by: CV

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/30/19 07:00 PM

Can't wait, Ian. This will be a fun road to go down.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/30/19 07:36 PM

I want to go down this road too! Charles, please take me with you.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/31/19 01:37 AM

I see the LFR1100 has gained a rear sphincter.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 03/31/19 09:40 AM

And it will reach 124dB in room at steady state and up to 129dB peak! I think at 130dB, the covariant quantum fields that comprise our universe start to break down. LOL!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/01/19 10:36 AM

According to the product page, these will offer pin-point imaging while expanding the soundstage.

With my non-LFR v4, I swear one can be fooled into believing I have surround on most songs when in 2.0 or 2.1. I haven't tried with movies.

With the LFR Actives, do I need the 160 and QS10? Do I really need an 800?
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/01/19 02:50 PM

Think you'll have to come out with a 10 channel amp to go with.

Or perhaps put the active crossover in a 5 channel amp ... that way one can get each closer to the speaker ... or just put the whole thing in the speaker. Unless you need both channels to process the LFR signal ... (which I'm thinking might be a real possibility)
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/01/19 08:45 PM

Ian, how is the directivity on those active LFRs? Are you able to get the listening window and sound power curves to pretty much lie on top of each other?
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/02/19 03:24 AM

Hi rrlev,

An ADA1500-5 per speaker would work really well. Since there is one DSP per speaker the amp/DSP combo can be over by each speaker. I did think about putting the DSP and an ADA1500-5 in the speaker. It would save a lot of wiring as you would just need to plug each speaker into the wall. Our 4in1 Transmitter/pre-amp/AxiomAir could send the information to each speaker wirelessly.



But the speaker would have to get quite a bit taller to house all this amplification and the DSP. As it is you could still use the 4in1 Transmitter/pre-amp/AxiomAir and have the receiver mounted in the DSP for each speaker so the wiring would be minimal, just 5 short speaker wires if the amp is near the speaker and the interconnects from the DSP to the amp.
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/02/19 03:43 AM

Hi Mojo,

Yes we are. It is pretty cool to have this much control in the design phase. The flip side is the mathematical nightmare of all those curves coming together. You have five distinct radiating patterns to work with to give you the final result at each 7.5 degree increment in the Spinorama. Since adjusting one affects all the others you can kind of get the picture.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/02/19 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By Ian
Hi Mojo,

Yes we are. It is pretty cool to have this much control in the design phase.


Then we're all in big trouble. We all need to upgrade to LFR actives.

Originally Posted By Ian
The flip side is the mathematical nightmare of all those curves coming together. You have five distinct radiating patterns to work with to give you the final result at each 7.5 degree increment in the Spinorama. Since adjusting one affects all the others you can kind of get the picture.


Yes, that's why we need one driver to rule them all. But it's so much fun to play God with speaker systems. smile
Posted by: MatManhasgone

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/02/19 03:54 PM

So if I popped my head in next Thursday, could I see a working demonstration? Just Wondering??
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/04/19 02:14 AM

Hi Matt,

A week or two later would be better if you can swing it. Right now everything is at my place.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/04/19 12:35 PM

Win win
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/04/19 01:11 PM

Mat, what Ian isn't telling you is that he blew the sh!t out of the test gear Andrew gave him. He hooked up 5 ADA-1500s to each LFR. When that "worked", he jumpered the ADAs for bridged mono mode and launched the HP drivers across the room with smoke trails and tendrils of voice coil trailing behind them. At least that's how the dream I had last night went.
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/07/19 03:54 PM

Lol
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/07/19 05:30 PM

He really is running 5 ADAs per active LFR1100. It's a good assumption they're bridged. He must have them 50 feet apart and sitting at least that far away. I'm sitting 10 feet away from my M5s which are 10 feet apart, listening to Burning Down the House through my puny Pioneer at -10 and it's more than enough to rattle my rib cage. Clean too!

One ADA-1000 is more than enough for my M100s for either music or movies. That's at 13 feet away with the M100s 12 feet apart in a 4,200 cu. ft. room. With the ADA-1000/M100, I can turn my Onk up to 0dB and it's loud and clean! It's pretty cool but only tolerable for songs that are relatively quiet with huge swings. A real treat.

The 1500 is absolute insanity. I cannot shut it down and it brings the M3 and M5 to their knees. I am sure I could ignite the M3 with it and while Ian said to give the M5 all the 1500's love, I can't bring myself to do it. Not the M100 though although I am sure it's pretty close and the voice coils are gasping for air. Those HP drivers are looking like Marty Feldman's eyes. I had my muffs on and this time ear plugs as well but can still hear the huge, enveloping sound. The hairs on my arms were standing up like a werewolf in heat. LOL!
Posted by: MatManhasgone

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/10/19 09:26 PM

Well, let's face it. Active LFR is a costly proposition. I guess there are going to be those who money doesn't really stand as an object when it comes to sound, but the question to be asked is would those people also not be part of the snobbery that would question the pedigree of Axiom and just buy into some more well-advertised brand that has better name recognition with their other snob minded acquaintances.

I have a pair of LFR1100s. I find that they do play quite well and can give me a whole load of enjoyment. I have tested an ADA1500 with my setup in my room and found no real advantage over the ADA1000 that I currently own.

I got an email from Axiom offering me to move up to Active. Why would I go on blind faith that it will be that much better? I know the side of diminishing returns and now that at this point in the curve that getting a small fraction better sound can cost quite a large investment in cash.

It comes back to the so misquoted statement that I made. The improvement in sound I got from going from an older set of speakers, in my case a pair of Energy C3, to a set of M3v4 speakers was gigantic. The M3 are about $600. The improvement from the M3 to M100 is there, but not 4 times better considering the cost of the speakers are over four times the price. If you moved to the LFR1100 your cost jumps up well over 10x the price.. do you honestly think you are getting that much jump in sound? Yes it is bigger and envelops you more. But it is a night and day better sound like going from a 12" black and white TV to a 100" 4k laster projection?

If I was to trade in my LFR1100 for an active system, I would want to take a listen with a blind A/B comparison to say yes I can hear an improvement over what I have now and it's worth the extra cash out of my pocket to get that sound.

I am just outside of Dwight for the next 4 days. If Ian wants to sell me on going Active, then show me what it can do.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/10/19 10:29 PM

Well...let's see. The M3s can take 200W average and 800W peak. The M100s can take 600W average and 2400W peak. Not 4 times better but certainly 3 times...if your application calls for it.

The quality of the lows, mids and highs of the M3 cannot be compared with the M100. Once you hear the two beside one another, it's like night and day. A novice would very quickly pick the M100 over the M3. In fact, many novices have at my place. The 100s are more than 4 times better in this department.

You need twice the amplifier power with the M3 to get the same SPL as the M100.

The soundstage and imaging of the M100 though is definitely not 4 times better than the M3 but it is wider and taller. This is an amazing feat of engineering on Axiom's part. You will get very similar imaging and soundstage from the least to most expensive speaker. That soundstage and imaging is holographic! As you move up, you will get improved width, improved fidelity across the entire audible range, improved micro and macro dynamics and improved dynamic range. But the character of the entire family is the same. Bravo!

As for the LFRs, I don't know because I've never heard them.

If I had LFRs, I'd trade them in for the actives and if the actives weren't better in my space, back they'd go. I am willing to wager though, the active LFRs will image significantly better!

P.S. The 1000 can drive the M100s very loud and clean but it gives up long before the 1500. The 1500 also does a better job with the lows if playing the M100s full band. Of course this is all academic if your application doesn't need that kind of power. This is probably quite the same with the LFRs as you've found.
Posted by: bman84

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/10/19 10:47 PM

How does one actually power all of those ADA's? I thought I was going nuts with building 4800W of circuit capacity into my media closet.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/10/19 11:03 PM

If you are talking about powering a pair of the active LFR1100, you could use two, 5-channel ADA-1000s. That's likely no more than 1800W. That may work well for a medium size room or even a large room if you don't want to open it up too much.

Recall the nominal (average) power is far less than the peak. The breaker can take peaks without tripping.
Posted by: MatManhasgone

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/10/19 11:13 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Well...let's see. The M3s can take 200W average and 800W peak. The M100s can take 600W average and 2400W peak. Not 4 times better but certainly 3 times...if your application calls for it.


So by your logic, a 600hp BMW M5 is a far better car to drive than my 140hp Kia Niro. Yes, it is far more expensive and has better specs all around, but put them both on an LA freeway in rush hour and I bet you'd far prefer the Niro as it gets to use the HOV lanes. Power is meaningless unless you are in an environment that lets you use it.

Originally Posted By Mojo
The quality of the lows, mids and highs of the M3 cannot be compared with the M100. Once you hear the two beside one another, it's like night and day. A novice would very quickly pick the M100 over the M3. In fact, many novices have at my place. The 100s are more than 4 times better in this department.


I just call utter bullshit on that! Yes the M100 can produce a lower low. But the mids and highs are not that far off. Again, I gather that you when doing your demo are following the Spinal Tap and running your amp to 11. At realistic listening volumes in an average sized room, the two are not that far apart. Not everybody wants or has the need to listen at 100db of sound. And I think that is why I can't seem to take most of your sound rants seriously as I feel you are living in your own world that the vast majority of the rest of the population simply don't.

I still don't see the point of spending my money unless I know that it will give me something in return.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/10/19 11:37 PM

I suggest you read my posts a little more carefully.

The M3 and M100 are indeed on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to fidelity across the entire audible range. That holds true at any SPL from -25 on my Onk and up. Of course this depends on how critical you want to be about fidelity but I can tell you those who have listened to mine side-by-side are not at all critical when it comes to sound, and they immediately pick the M100. Not so between the M3 and M5 but even there, when they listen more closely, they pick the M5.

If you're familiar with my posts, you'd know I don't listen loud. All my buds listen even lower because they're quite sensitive to SPL.

As for my posts, I lived for almost 12 years with my shitty v2. I have great reason to celebrate over my v4 which are at least an order of magnitude better than v2. How about celebrating with me?
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/11/19 02:40 AM

Hi Matt,

I would be careful not to confuse the cost of the amplification with the speakers. For $5,700 you get both omnidirectional speakers and two fully balanced DSPs capable of controlling 10 individual channels. In a smaller room where you would not be throwing a party, two ADA1000-5 amplifiers would be loads of power for the LFR1100 Actives. You already know what the passive version of the LFR1100s can do so I would think of it from the perspective that for around $700 more dollars plus some extra amp channels you can take things up one more notch. And beyond that I would put out the challenge that you may not be able actually buy a better sounding pair of speakers for any price.
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/11/19 02:49 AM

Hi bman84,

As Mojo mentioned it is all about the available peak power to avoid any possibility of amp clipping no matter the dynamic range of the source material. The actual continuous power consumption will be easily handled by a normal wall circuit. This said, I don't think you would want to turn on all the amps at the same time or the inrush current may cause the breaker to blow. There is a lot of capacitance there to handle those dynamic peaks looking for an initial charge.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/11/19 10:48 PM

Oh my... I just noticed these are ready. Given that I haven't had time to unpack and set up my LFR1100's yet I am thinking hard about trading up to the actives. I have always been a big fan of bi- and tri-amping, although one of the attractions was being able to crank the volume up until the bass was clipping without frying the tweeters. I don't do that no more... trying to save the last of my hearing.

I ordered a 4 channel ADA1500 with the LFR's, so thinking about maybe using that for woofers and front mids then adding a 6-channel ADA1000 for the rest.

I always used to run larger amps for the lower frequency channels so that might be an option here as well, but don't know if ADA1000 and 1500 have compatible gain and polarity (ADA1000 is 1.2v for full output while ADA1500 is 2V for full output so it seems promising).

Originally Posted By Ian
This said, I don't think you would want to turn on all the amps at the same time or the inrush current may cause the breaker to blow.

I feel stupid asking this since I own a (still in box) ADA1500, but are the ADA power switches mechanical or electronic ? Thinking about the situation where you get a power outage then power comes back on again... although I suppose in that case the caps might maintain enough charge to limit the inrush. I guess that leads to a "do you only turn ADAs on when using them or leave them on 24/7 ?" question that belongs in another thread.

Yes, email already sent to Debbie.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/11/19 11:29 PM

Originally Posted By MatManhasgone
It comes back to the so misquoted statement that I made. The improvement in sound I got from going from an older set of speakers, in my case a pair of Energy C3, to a set of M3v4 speakers was gigantic. The M3 are about $600. The improvement from the M3 to M100 is there, but not 4 times better considering the cost of the speakers are over four times the price. If you moved to the LFR1100 your cost jumps up well over 10x the price.. do you honestly think you are getting that much jump in sound? Yes it is bigger and envelops you more. But it is a night and day better sound like going from a 12" black and white TV to a 100" 4k laster projection?


Totally fair question. There is definitely not a linear relationship between cost and performance, and the knee of the curve is somewhere around the M3. Past that you get continued improvements in sound quality plus the ability to fill larger rooms (or play more loudly) but you are definitely dealing with diminishing returns per $$ and your money is getting you nuances rather than night-and-days.

One of the reasons I was so excited about the M5HP was that IMO it gave Axiom a "this is as good as most people are ever going to need" bookshelf speaker, which I felt was a gap in their lineup previously.

That said, if you do have a large room to fill then going to larger speakers does give you more than a nuance in benefits. For a smaller room it gets tougher to justify going much past M5HP or M60 from a value perspective, although the larger speakers are still going to sound better even so.

Going from regular to LFR is arguably another expensive nuance, but one I definitely wanted to try.

Since I don't play my system very loudly these days I don't expect to get more than another nuance going from passive to active crossovers, but (a) I grew up on active crossovers - talk about a mis-spent youth - and (b) I really like the work that Ian and Andrew have been doing and am really interested in the possibilities that come from doing the active crossover in a DSP rather than a few op-amps.

Bottom line - do I expect a big difference between passive and active LFRs ? Nope. Do I expect some interesting nuances which I might or might not find really desireable ? Yep.

I do agree with your point about being able to listen to the speakers... the "internet direct" model works exceptionally well with smaller speakers but starts to get a bit strained once you are talking about LFR1100s and a stack of electronics that comes up to your waist. It probably would be worthwhile for Axiom to set up a listening room with a permanent set of LFR's that can be A/Bed with other speakers from their lineup for a while, just so more people can see and hear what they can do.

If you are not able to connect with Ian while you're up in the area and I do go ahead with trading to the actives, I would be happy to haul them out to your place so we can A/B them with your speakers.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 12:18 AM

John, I've discovered some very interesting things in my listening sessions with the M3, M5, M100, 1000-3 and 1000-5.

First, when watching movies, the mains don't matter. Surprise! I can't hear a difference between any of the above models in 5.1.

Second, when watching movies, the external amps don't matter. Surprise! My Onk is more than good enough for my 4,200 cu. ft. room and 13 foot MLP.

Third, for 2.1, the speakers matter a lot - a lot more than external amps. As I've said umpteen times, the soundstage and imaging are very similar between these three models and that's where it ends. The M5 is worth every penny over the M3. It is more than twice as good. No one I know wants the M3 when they hear the M5. The difference between the M3 and M100 is very stark. Not so between the M5 and M100 but when one listens closely, one hears things they can't unhear. The hand claps in Unsquare Dance sound like hand claps on the M100. On the M5, you know they are hand claps but they sound less human. You'd never know they can sound better than the M5 until you've heard the M100! My buddy (and Ian knows this) listened to my M5s numerous times and was very moved with the sound. But when he heard the M100s, when he heard those hand-claps, he wanted to buy them off of me. Then his wife stepped in and we all know how that ends.

Fourth, if you want the realistic sound of M100s, you better have a big room or they will boom like the dickens. You can plug the ports, apply XT32 and they'll still boom. Besides, plugging the ports changes their character. This is why I find the M5s to be the sweet spot. They work in big or small rooms and they sound excellent enough.

Fifth, for 2.1, external amps can matter. If you are planning on running the gain around 0, even the M3 sounds better with a 1000 but I wouldn't recommend running an M3 that loud because it's at the limits. If you're running M5s, the 1000 may not be enough for some songs unless you're sitting 8 feet away. And if you're running the M5s that loud in 2.0, you will hear distortion because a single HP driver can only go so far. If you're running M100s, the 1000 can be very good and anything more is for longer listening distances than mine or for very short periods of listening otherwise you will go deaf. Even the 1000 though has its limits and I can shut it down before the Onk pre-amp, M5 or M100 give up. That's where the 1500 comes in and can take the M100 right up to its compression limit.

Sixth, even in a largish space like mine, with M100s, I can live with my Onk with no regrets. Not so with M3s or M5s because in 2.1, they don't have the 'nads for some very dynamic material.

Posted by: bridgman

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 03:02 AM

Yep, that pretty much matches my understanding although I have not yet had a chance to listen to M-100's. The jump from M3 to M5HP is significant, and going to tower speakers makes a difference when you need to fill a large room.

I am very happy with my older M60ti's for HT and have no plans to ever replace or upgrade them. I do need to get off my butt and hook up the new UDP-203 via analog to the HK630 so I can have 7.1 and then wire up the M2ti's as rear surrounds, but that's as far as I ever expect to need to go.

That said, I haven't even been up to the loft (where the HT is set up) in a couple of months.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 05:19 AM

I don't know what's going on with you, man. Where are your priorities? LOL.
Posted by: bman84

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 10:10 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
John, I've discovered some very interesting things in my listening sessions with the M3, M5, M100, 1000-3 and 1000-5.

First, when watching movies, the mains don't matter. Surprise! I can't hear a difference between any of the above models in 5.1.

Second, when watching movies, the external amps don't matter. Surprise! My Onk is more than good enough for my 4,200 cu. ft. room and 13 foot MLP.


Strange. I would have thought that movie tracks could be just as demanding as music, especially with sounds like gunshots/explosions, and dynamic classical scores. Maybe it's the center channel that matters most here.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 10:36 AM

Bman, you got that right about the center channel. I measured 16 times the power going into my 160 vs the M100s in a GOT dragon destruction sequence. I had 8W going to the M100s and 128W to the 160.

Also, it could be there's so much going on in movies, it's hard to be critical compared to 2.1 music.
Posted by: bman84

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 10:46 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
GOT dragon destruction sequence.


Solid test material! 16x the power is pretty insane. That's a good point about critical listening as well. Holds especially true in when a lot of surround activity is present.
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 12:55 PM

I find the maturation of Axiom to be interesting. When I first heard Axiom speakers in 1989, visited the factory and met Ian in 1990, joined this board in 2002, the basic premise was low cost, high quality sound. Real wood? Not a chance as the value is on the inside! Expensive speakers over $2k? Not a chance as that not be in line with the company mantra!

Now, dont get me wrong, I think the new products are exciting and could open the company and products to new fans. I have enjoyed the version updates and introduction/removal of new models (anyone still have a Sherwood receiver or the M40's - not to mention the original, non ASW AX3's that I first purchased)?

I think it is a great company, with solid leadership who are not afraid to push the envelope of busy and refine/design wonderful products! I cant say that LFR's and a stack of amps is something I have the desire to own anymore - that boat sailed with my Reference 3a Suprema's and Simaudio Moon amps in the 1990's, but I am glad the options are now there for those who do. Having heard the LFR's, EP800's and the ADA amps at the last Axiom anniversary party, I can say I wish they were around when I was heavily into gear as the end game - where now I simply enjoy the music/movies.

Congrats to Ian and team!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 01:35 PM

"I find the maturation of Axiom to be interesting."

Indeed! One of the qualities I love about Ian is his hunger for knowledge. Another is his incessant drive to adapt to that knowledge and create new frontiers.
Posted by: CV

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Bman, you got that right about the center channel. I measured 16 times the power going into my 160 vs the M100s in a GOT dragon destruction sequence.


I'm hoping an active LFR180 will follow before long, even if it means even more channels of amplification to think about.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
I don't know what's going on with you, man. Where are your priorities? LOL.

Yeah, it's not like me to leave speakers unopened (or listening rooms unmolested) for even a day let alone a few months. Who knows... maybe I was subconsciously waiting for the active LFRs.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By CV
Originally Posted By Mojo
Bman, you got that right about the center channel. I measured 16 times the power going into my 160 vs the M100s in a GOT dragon destruction sequence.


I'm hoping an active LFR180 will follow before long, even if it means even more channels of amplification to think about.


Charles, what the hell are we gonna do, man? All this audio innovation and addiction to pornaudio is gonna kill us!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By bridgman
Originally Posted By Mojo
I don't know what's going on with you, man. Where are your priorities? LOL.

Yeah, it's not like me to leave speakers unopened (or listening rooms unmolested) for even a day let alone a few months. Who knows... maybe I was subconsciously waiting for the active LFRs.


If you can wait a tad bit longer, Axiom is working on new drivers. Apparently Ian was babbling during his nightly 2 hour nap and fortunately Amie was able to record him. He recited a recipe for quantum foam which they've been able to formulate in the thermo-forming machine. It excites quarks at the Planck scale for the ultimate resolution!
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 10:10 PM

Can anyone tell me what kind of standby power each axiom DSP consumes?
How about a 5 channel 1500 axiom amp?

If I shut off or turn on power to the wall outlet which supplies the DSP and Axiom amp does it power down it power down and up gracefully?

Just wondering if leaving the active LFRs on all the time consumes a lot of energy and if it does would it make sense to switch it off remotely.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 10:50 PM

I'd say 10W for each ADA and DSP.

As for your second question, I'd direct that to Axiom. They may have an inrush current limiter that only functions off the trigger input or power switch.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 11:14 PM

Charles, regarding the LFR180, if we are to have active LFR1100s, don't you think we should have active LFR180s that have dual HP woofers on the front left and right?
Posted by: CV

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 11:38 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Charles, regarding the LFR180, if we are to have active LFR1100s, don't you think we should have active LFR180s that have dual HP woofers on the front left and right?


It makes sense to me.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/12/19 11:47 PM

Originally Posted By CV
Originally Posted By Mojo
Charles, regarding the LFR180, if we are to have active LFR1100s, don't you think we should have active LFR180s that have dual HP woofers on the front left and right?


It makes sense to me.


Heh heh. smile
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/13/19 12:11 PM

Mojo,

10W sounds like a lot for a D amp ... is that a measurement??
The DSP box should be way below that ...

Also I take it that's when the amp's triggered
What is it when not triggered?

Rich
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/13/19 12:13 PM

Never quite got the LFR center channel thing. Are we not trying to localize sound to the center of the screen??
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/13/19 12:31 PM

Rich, it was an educated guess on my part from the stand-by spec Axiom gave for the DSP subs. I'll see if I can dig up the manual. It's not on-line.

Regarding the LFR centre, I expect the sound will still be localized to the center but it will sound wider and more dispersed like in a movie theatre. Perhaps it's only best for larger rooms like mine...dunno...I've never heard it. It's one of those mysteries Ian created, tucked away on the site, waiting for someone to discover it and yell "Eureka! It's freakin' amazing!!"

I want it!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/13/19 12:37 PM

Nothing in the manual on stand-by power and it's a PITA to try and measure it safely.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/13/19 03:18 PM

I think the idea is to try and provide a smooth continuum from left through center and right, rather than having only right/center/left positionings (oversimplifying obviously).

When I went from VP100 to VP180 I found that the center signal was now "wider" (not a surprise) and that the result seemed much more natural and true to the video (that was a bit of a surprise) as a result.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/13/19 03:21 PM

"When I went from VP100 to VP180 I found that the center signal was now "wider" (not a surprise) and that the result seemed much more natural and true to the video..."

Ditto when I went from 150v2 to 160v4. Plus, much higher fidelity and understandability.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/14/19 09:23 AM

Did you all notice the five position BGC switch on the active LFR DSP? Since there are 2 DSPs, the boundary gain can be adjusted on a per LFR-basis. This might come in very handy.
Posted by: Andrew

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/15/19 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By rrlev
Can anyone tell me what kind of standby power each axiom DSP consumes?
How about a 5 channel 1500 axiom amp?

If I shut off or turn on power to the wall outlet which supplies the DSP and Axiom amp does it power down it power down and up gracefully?

Just wondering if leaving the active LFRs on all the time consumes a lot of energy and if it does would it make sense to switch it off remotely.


Your best bet for minimal power consumption and longevity would be to use a trigger to put both amplifiers in standby mode when not in use, or turn them off altogether using the rear switch.

Each DSP consumes approximately 9W.
An ADA1500-5 in standby mode (trigger off or front panel button turned off) consumes approximately 20W.
When turned on and active, the ADA1500-5 will consume approximately 90W at idle.

Thanks,

Andrew
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/15/19 12:40 PM

I love the sound of toroid magnetostriction on the 1500 in the morning. Therefore I always turn it off to get that small joy in my life.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/15/19 08:23 PM

So LFR1100 Active uses 60W even when off ...
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/15/19 09:00 PM

Indeed. 58W to be exact.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/15/19 10:14 PM

Are the DSPs tuned for each speaker? Which is what I'd expect on a high end active crossover.

Over time the DSP code is bound to improve. How will these updates be handled?
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/15/19 10:34 PM

Just reread Andrews comments ...
think I understand

Front power switch is similar to trigger off (20W consumed in standby)
The rear power switch is completely off (0 Watts)
Is that correct?

Does the amp shut down and power up gracefully when using the rear switch?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/15/19 11:04 PM

Yes.

I've had no problem with turning the rear switch on. I've tried it with two 1000s and one 1500. There are no clicks, pops, farts or burps. On the 1500, when you turn it on, you will hear the pleasant sound of magnetostriction in the 30 pound toroid that graces the innards.

I have noticed when the rear switch is turned off on the 1500, and the front switch is still on, for about 753 msec, I hear a high frequency squeal in my VP160 as if someone quickly choked a squirrel. It surprises me every time, and every time I have to remind myself I don't house any humans or squirrels in my 160.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/24/19 07:26 PM

Being sensitive to phantom power (especially if it's over a watt, no less 58W) I'd like to propose that:

A) the DSP have a trigger which shut's it down completely ... and if there is any chance that there might be a transient on its output then the DSP also have a trigger out which shuts down the amp before the DSP (and turns it on after the DSP is settled).

B) the Amp shut off completely after say (10min). I can only guess that this is not being done because the power supply takes a while to come back up. For people who want instant on then maybe this option is switch selectable.

Thoughts?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/24/19 07:55 PM

What you're asking for is doable but it increases part count and complexity.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/24/19 07:59 PM

relay (preferably latching) or have a separate power module (TI makes a few single chip supplies which can efficiently supply what's needed at a few mW of cost)
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/24/19 08:21 PM

Mojo,

You edited your post and left my answer hanging ...

in any case ... for the few parts it takes the product is greatly improved ... if you care about wasted energy ... not to mention paying for it (but I guess in the winter it's just adding needed heat) it's a no-brainer ...

Rich
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 04/24/19 08:36 PM

Rich, I edited while you were posting your answer. It's actually not as simple as you proposed but yes, it can be done.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/04/19 11:28 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo




I have noticed when the rear switch is turned off on the 1500, and the front switch is still on, for about 753 msec, I hear a high frequency squeal in my VP160 as if someone quickly choked a squirrel. It surprises me every time, and every time I have to remind myself I don't house any humans or squirrels in my 160.


This begs the question - how many squirrels have you heard being choked? laugh
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/05/19 12:08 AM

Never seen one choking on a peanut? It must be Andrew's sense of humour designing a turn-off circuit that sounds like that. smile

https://youtu.be/xOcVuWMP9t8?t=15
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/15/19 03:30 PM

I hope Ian is OK. Last I heard, he was bruising his corpus callosum trying to integrate the various driver curves for the active LFR1100 in the digital (DSP) domain. I hope he hasn't blown a brain lobe!
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 10:05 AM



All is going AWESOME!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 10:27 AM

OMG! The Listening Window and the Sound Power are ONE! Ian, you did it! You will go down in the annals of speaker history!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 10:38 AM

It's so beautiful. I can't stop looking at it. 2.5dB attenuation per decade!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 11:55 AM

I'm still looking at those damned curves. I can't believe the Directivity Index is practically zero across the entire audible range.
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 02:11 PM

Hi Mojo,

Bringing the curves together like this is working in the blind listen testing too. The realism factor has gone up another notch. I am really looking forward to getting this version back down to my place.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 02:30 PM

You don't need to listen to it to know it's full of goodness. I mean, look at those curves. Compared to the passive 1100, they are far superior. I have no idea how Mattmanhasgonebutisbackdroolingandskeptical can possibly live with his passive LFRs!
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 05:45 PM

Ha ... so letís widen the window ... 20,25,30 degrees? I mean measurement window ... how wide till you see a reasonable deviation.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 05:55 PM

Even more questions
What is the test setup .... you need to have walls to reflect off of ...
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 06:45 PM

Nope. No walls needed. "Just" the Axiom anechoic chamber, a turntable, signal generator, mic, and waveform recorder.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 08:47 PM

Originally Posted By rrlev
Even more questions
What is the test setup .... you need to have walls to reflect off of ...


If memory serves, there are two curves posted. The red curve is the on axis curve. The blue is the average response of curves at 7.5 degree increments in both the horizontal and vertical plane, or 48 measurements in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

It is also done in the chamber to keep any effect of the sidewalls, floor and ceiling from occurring.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 10:19 PM

The red curve is the Listening Window and the blue is the Sound Power. The Listening Window is 0 to +/- 30 degrees horizontally (phi plane) and +/-10 degrees vertically (theta plane). The Sound Power is a weighted mean of a number of curves: Axial Response, Listening Window, and Early Reflections.

I don't think Ian has ever said publicly what the angular resolution of those measurements is. And for all I know, Axiom may extend these curves beyond the nominal angular ranges I've described. The weights for the Sound Power are Axiom secret sauce.

The recipe is right below. You and your whole family can sing it to the tune of "We Three Kings from Orient Are":

We six curves of Axiom are
30 years old we've come so far
every one eighteenth pi rad, an anechoic curve we add
of spinorama data not scalar.

Refrain:

O curves of tone and SPL
curves with similar shape and flare
gentle slope, low Q nope
perfect sound these curves foretell.

Direct sound real flat without any gain
"Axial Response" that is my name
simple content, most important
over all curves I reign.

Repeat refrain

A "Listening Window" nine curves mean am I
0 to +/-30 degrees across, 10 degrees down, 10 degrees high
within a dB, these curves must be
for listeneners to joyously sigh.

Repeat refrain

Image width, stability, timbre to tame
+/-40, 60, 80 across and 50 down and high's the game
most that we hear, bounce from quite near
"Early Reflections" is my aim.

Repeat refrain

A speaker's signature doth we take now
weighted mean of 70 curves is how
downward tilting, no broad wilting
"Sound Power" curve art thou.

Repeat refrain

The "DI" curve is the cash cow
the "Listening Window" from "Sound Power" take away now
closer to zero, it's a hero
listeners will procalaim a big "Wow!"

Repeat refrain

One last curve is for finesse
"Early Reflections" from "Sound Power" we minus
lateral prophylaxis, from far-off axis
"Early Reflections DI" shows polar bias.

Repeat refrain

Low DI with curves smooth and similar
disperse the sound as not to be insular
audio pornography, via sonic holography
sharp images spaced out renders them singular.

Repeat refrain

Axiom's direct radiators sound great when they're played
sound power declining 3dB per decade
if that DI, is a bit high
constant, low DI LFRs can be yours via trade.

Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 11:36 PM

I thought that the listening window measurement is the average of 4 off axis measurements 15 Degrees left, right, up, and down from center. Iím sure someone will set me straight if I got that wrong ...
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/20/19 11:47 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Nope. No walls needed. "Just" the Axiom anechoic chamber, a turntable, signal generator, mic, and waveform recorder.


Iím sure itís done in the anechoic chamber but Iíd bet two walls of the chamber need to be covered (at least partially) or you would not be able to measure the Omni directional effect
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/21/19 12:12 AM

All the chamber walls are covered with sound-absorbing material which renders the walls acoustically invisible and hence why I said "No walls."

You don't need reflections to measure the omni-directional effect because the effect is "encoded" within the curves. When you place the LFR in a room, the speakers interact with the room and the omni-directional effect within the curves is decoded thanks to your ears-brain system in that room.

The Listening Window is (traditionally) a mean of the curves I described but as I said, Axiom may be extending the angles to more fully characterize the speaker response.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/21/19 01:35 AM

Hmmmm .... We need to know the setup to understand what we are looking at. The curves from the front firing speakers alone or the curves from the front combined with the rear reflections. Iíll bet that the off axis measurement is not going to improve much if only if itís the front alone. If the curves are synthized from the front and rear being measured separately (I.e. the rear driver needs to face the mic) then itís not much of a measurement. If itís a real measurement .... how would you propose to measure it.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/21/19 01:42 AM

It's the curves from the entire speaker. You put the speaker on a turntable and rotate it horizontally and take measurements. You rotate the microphone for vertical angles. The measurements are frequency sweeps across the audible range. You generate 234,389 curves and drink your face off and smoke the good stuff for 20 days straight to make sense of all of them. Then when you do, you go to the DSP and tweak all the filter coefficients, and then go back to the chamber and do it all over again until you have the angelic curves Ian posted.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/21/19 01:58 AM

Iím going to bed ... I think you should reread my post
BTW I do undstand what Ian means when he talk about the spinorama
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/21/19 02:04 AM

You want to know how the rear measurements are taken and integrated with the front. smile
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/21/19 02:57 AM

I will see if I can clarify these two measurements. The Listening Window and the Sound Power, or Total Radiated Sound Power, are the two main curves in what has been coined the ďSpinoramaĒ. Both these curves are averages of a "family-of-curvesĒ, or amplitude response graphs, measured in an anechoic chamber. The Listening Window will always be an average of a group of curves centred around the on-axis curve. The Sound Power will always be an average of curves taken in all directions around the loudspeaker in an anechoic chamber. Exactly which curves are used, at which degrees of steps, and using which weighting will vary a bit depending on who is doing the measuring and when. This type of research began in earnest in the 1970ís when Dr Floyd Toole began comparing various anechoic measurements to strictly controlled listening tests at the National Research Centre (NRC) in Ottawa, Canada. I was fortunate enough to have been involved in this research at the NRC for eleven years. Over the years we were able to refine the importance of the various measurements taken based on the results from the double-blind listen tests. The magnitude of this research is daunting as you need to verify consistency in the double-blind listen test results across many people and environments. A handful of companies have continued the research since the NRC days, Axiom being one of them. API being another one, which is where Andrew was before Axiom. API, because of the Mirage line, did a lot of research into the nuances of omnidirectional loudspeakers on this research. When Andrew first arrived at Axiom it was really interesting to chat about our various findings since the NRC years. Following this time Version 4 was born.

For a conventional front-firing loudspeaker the Listening Window should be linear across the frequency band and the Sound Power should have a consistent tilt downwards from 0 dB in the low frequency to around -10 dB at 10 kHz when compared to the Listening Window. For an omnidirectional speaker the way to read it is a bit different as now you have the ability in the design phase to bring the Listening Window and Sound Power closer together. In order to maintain a proper spectral balance, you cannot just bring the Sound Power curve up to match the Listening Window, instead both need to move towards each other. By creating the LFR1100 Active we had an incredible amount of control over the five driver sets which allowed us to experiment with making the Listening Window and the Sound Power the same. I think you will love the result!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/21/19 12:28 PM

"By creating the LFR1100 Active we had an incredible amount of control over the five driver sets which allowed us to experiment with making the Listening Window and the Sound Power the same."

This statement is telling us actives alone won't yield a null Directivity Index. We need active LFRs to experience Nirvana.

I'd really like to understand, in terms of soundstage, imaging, etc what the qualitative differences are between passive, active and active LFR.
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/22/19 02:13 AM

The best way to look at it would be the quality of the Sound Power curve. Whether it is Active, Passive, or omnidirectional will only matter in so far as it can aid in making a better Sound Power curve. The Directivity Index is essentially the inverse of the Sound Power so a good Sound Power means a good Directivity Index too. Unfortunately, Sound Power data is very difficult to get on loudspeakers as it is generally never measured, likely because you require an anechoic chamber to measure it and it is a lengthy process to measure and calculate. In the design process getting a linear on-axis and Listening Window is pretty straightforward. But getting a nice Sound Power as well is a lot of work.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/22/19 08:31 AM

Let's address the "active speaker," and why it's so good. The first active speakers I auditioned were powered Advents in 1979. They were astonishingly good, especially in contrast to their passive brother, the larger Advent.

If one reads a lot of higher end articles on speakers, one will find a lot of love for single driver, "crossover-less" speakers.

Removing the passive crossover removes a lot of components that color the sound.

The problem with the single driver speaker is they typically cannot handle an off axis response above 5000 Hz nor do bass below about 70 Hz.

With the active LFR-1100, all these compromises disappear. The 3 6.5 inch woofers get their own amp, as do both sets of 5.25 inch mids and both sets of tweeters.

The DSP will bandwidth control the response to each driver, which means, for example, a hard kick drum at 40 Hz won't tax the amp's ability to present the mid range material.

This delivers the best of all worlds - in fact - a pair of Active LFR-1100's, ADA-1500's to run them and a pair of EP800's would make for a state of the art speaker for well under $20,000.

Ian - something to consider - can you add a subwoofer out to the DSP box? You could tailor the crossover point to the best match with the 1100's. Perhaps even a choice of 30 Hz when run ported or 50 Hz when run sealed.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/22/19 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By craigsub
Ian - something to consider - can you add a subwoofer out to the DSP box? You could tailor the crossover point to the best match with the 1100's. Perhaps even a choice of 30 Hz when run ported or 50 Hz when run sealed.

Uh-oh... now you've done it.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By bridgman
Originally Posted By craigsub
Ian - something to consider - can you add a subwoofer out to the DSP box? You could tailor the crossover point to the best match with the 1100's. Perhaps even a choice of 30 Hz when run ported or 50 Hz when run sealed.

Uh-oh... now you've done it.


You are right - no overnight post from Ian. Can't you see it now? "Amie, that's IT, now they want a SUBWOOFER out on the DSP!!! We are out of here!" laugh
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By craigsub
We are out of here!" laugh

LOL...c'mon Craig, we have all partied at their house, would anyone want to leave that behind???
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 12:03 PM

It's not a house. It's Colquhoun Audio Labs!
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 12:53 PM

Like
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 01:20 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
It's not a house. It's Colquhoun Audio Labs!

Have you been there Mojo? He has both...and a boathouse, errr...band house!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 01:29 PM

Sounds like quite the place. Unfortunately I have never had the pleasure. I have put myself up for adoption though. I'd make a good anechoic chamber slave. smile
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 02:35 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
I'd make a good anechoic chamber slave. smile

Yeah...that place is really difficult to spend any amount of time inside...cool to view when Ian was giving us the a demo, but not easy to hang out inside!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 05:04 PM

I'll gladly suffer through sensory deprivation to play with Axioms all day.

I'd like to stick my head in an anechoic chamber. Just my head. To hear my neurons firing. It would be, as Jim Morrison called it, a "bright midnight".
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 06:19 PM

Originally Posted By Ian


All is going AWESOME!


Originally Posted By Ian
The best way to look at it would be the quality of the Sound Power curve. Whether it is Active, Passive, or omnidirectional will only matter in so far as it can aid in making a better Sound Power curve. The Directivity Index is essentially the inverse of the Sound Power so a good Sound Power means a good Directivity Index too. Unfortunately, Sound Power data is very difficult to get on loudspeakers as it is generally never measured, likely because you require an anechoic chamber to measure it and it is a lengthy process to measure and calculate. In the design process getting a linear on-axis and Listening Window is pretty straightforward. But getting a nice Sound Power as well is a lot of work.


So, I'm still trying to get my head around this chart, Di, and widening the sweet spot

First, letís figure out what Di really means Ö because my understanding and my intuition donít seem to align.
If I understand it correctly the directivity index is the difference between these two curves (I think Di actually uses the on-axis response as the reference instead of the window but the window works). As they approach each other this index gets smaller Ö and at zero I think you supposedly have a perfect omni-directional speaker. Intuitively, I find that hard to to believe Ö the LFR is a perfect example Ö as a dipole, even if you could control all the drives perfectly, you are radiating along a single axis. As one approaches 90 degrees off axis youíre gonna loose the highs as they are more directional. Now you can make that up in the sound power curve by cranking the rear firing highs so they average out the sound power curve but thatís not going to make your speaker omni-directional Ö

Now my next question Ö the sweet spot ...
I sort of understand if one ignores the delay coming off the rear and side walls the rear levels will boost the missing frequencies. I can also see that the way pressures add works for you to fill in evenly. I'm kind of guessing that getting the rear firing speaker to put in the energy to fill in the spectrum as if it were omni directional may give you the frequency intensities you need to correctly fill the missing info to widen the sweet spot. But what about the delay


P.S.
I'm assuming, guessing, the sound power curve in the plot is sound power converted to dbSPL at the listening windows mic distance.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 08:16 PM

You can automate the sound power measurement... the magic words are Arduino and openbuilds (or equivalent)
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 08:49 PM

DI is the difference between On-axis or the Listening Window and the Sound Power. Some manufacturers use On-axis and others use the Listening Window. I am assuming Axiom uses the Listening Window because that is what they publish. Recognize however that it's up to each designer to interpret the results as they see fit. So Axiom may use the On-axis curve to tailor the DSP filters in order to make the Listening Window "better".

"Omni-directional" is only in the context of the curves I describe in my poem above. Don't interpret "omni-directional" to mean you can sit directly in between the plane of the speakers, or behind them, and experience Nirvana. You have to be somewhere between the speakers and at a distance where the direct and reflected sounds can be heard (diffuse sound field) which may be 12 feet or more away depending on the room and the distance between the speakers. On this point, Ian has said measurements are taken circumferentially. I think this is well-beyond the SAE spinorama standard which includes the angles in my poem. It's just another example of Axiom wanting to characterize their speaker system as much as possible so they can eke out every last bit of performance.

The DSP compensates for the delay between front and rear drivers.

The Sound Power is indeed the SPL in dB at 1 meter away. I don't know how far the mic actually is.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 10:03 PM

Thought sound power is in watts and independent of pressure or distance from the object. Although related to both ... if you know one you can get the other.

I skipped your poem but Iíll have another look
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/23/19 10:26 PM

Omni directional, ideally, is to radiate evenly in all directions. If I had a perfect one Iíd expect to hear the same response curve no matter where I stood. A really good one would sound great no matter where I stood. A lousy one would sound equally lousy no matter where I stood. BTW I know you know I know you know ...but to be clear we are talking mono here. smile
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 12:01 AM

Sound power can be converted to sound pressure as you say. I think though sound power is a convenient yet incorrect term because it is sound pressure that is directly measured and not sound power. But it's really tomatoes, tomatos, potatoes, potatos.

Axiom certainly didn't say they're ideal omni-directional radiators like a pulsing sphere. Just wait though. Ian will make them more ideal by putting drivers on the top, bottom and sides...LOL!

They're omni-directional to the extent they need to be in order to satisfy the spinorama.
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 02:34 AM

I had a chat with Andrew yesterday about the sub-out. We think this is a good idea. We can also add a switch to the DSP that would allow you to set the High Pass crossover for the LFR to match the subwoofer. It would be for use with at least two subwoofers (right and left) as there is one DSP per channel.
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 09:54 AM

Ah yes, the perfect 360-degree sound radiator. We are a still a long way off from that. I wonder how you would mount it in the room? The response curves of this device would all be identical and would need to have a similar downward tilt like we see in the LFR curves. As to how it would actually perform, all I can say is I would love to be in that blind listen test!

For the purpose of loudspeaker measurements, the Sound Power is in dB SPL. We run the measurements with the mic located two meters from the loudspeaker and then use 2 watts to bring us back to 1 watt/1 meter. The response curves that make up the resulting Listening Window and Sound Power all have their own unique characteristics but with similar trends. In the case of an omnidirectional the 90 will have the maximum downward tilt. In a conventional front firing the 90 will tend to look like the Sound Power. Technically an LFR is a Bipole design but the linearity of the front and rear off-axis responses make it operate more like an omnidirectional.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 11:23 AM

Thanks Ian.

Just curious, why does the Listening Window need a downward tilt in the first place ? I am starting to suspect that one of the reasons I keep gravitating to the bookshelf speakers is that they tend to have a flat-ish LW while the larger speakers tend to have more of a downward tilt.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 11:30 AM

Because the mids and highs are enforced within the room lending a flat in-room response rather than a boosted response.

Now this of course depends where you sit in relation to your speakers. If you are sitting near-field, you are receiving mostly direct sound and hence an attenuated mid and high response. If you are sitting in the diffuse field, the response is flatter.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 12:04 PM

Originally Posted By Ian
Ah yes, the perfect 360-degree sound radiator. We are a still a long way off from that. I wonder how you would mount it in the room?

like a pendent lamp ... a chain from the ceiling. Back when I was an undergrad I worked as a tech for the Dept of Electronic Music at the University of Illinois ... the head of that department designed a pair of round faceted speakers that looked to be over a meter in diameter with drivers pointing in all directions. I saw and heard it once in a concert (with a drummer) but the music was one of his compositions and ... "electronic".

Originally Posted By Ian

The response curves of this device would all be identical and would need to have a similar downward tilt like we see in the LFR curves. As to how it would actually perform, all I can say is I would love to be in that blind listen test!

I'm missing to reason to the downward tilt to the curves as I thought that only had to do with matching the sound power of a bipole ... and ditto on being included on the blind test.


Originally Posted By Ian
Technically an LFR is a Bipole design but the linearity of the front and rear off-axis responses make it operate more like an omnidirectional.

In the listening window with walls in place ...

Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 12:35 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Because the mids and highs are enforced within the room lending a flat in-room response rather than a boosted response.

Hmmm ... makes sense ... and answers my question to Ian
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 12:44 PM

Originally Posted By Ian
Technically an LFR is a Bipole design but the linearity of the front and rear off-axis responses make it operate more like an omnidirectional.

In the listening window with walls in place ...

Exactly!
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 01:47 PM

The interesting concept for me is the idea of designing a speaker which is designed to interact with a room rather than making a perfectly flat one. To make this work you must be delaying the front signal to get the rear signal to your ears at the same time (with in the time window of human perception). The key must be distance from front wall because any other path would be unknowable and probably too long.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 05:14 PM

Originally Posted By Ian
I had a chat with Andrew yesterday about the sub-out. We think this is a good idea. We can also add a switch to the DSP that would allow you to set the High Pass crossover for the LFR to match the subwoofer. It would be for use with at least two subwoofers (right and left) as there is one DSP per channel.

This is interesting for 2 channel music to get a perfect crossover match ... but for movies one would probably want to use the processor/receiver outputs. This allows one to use the LFRs low frequency output as part of the base room smoothing equation with the subs. Or is that the thought for when the DSP high pass is off?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/24/19 05:16 PM

This concept of a speaker playing nice with the room comes from the 50s. Bose was the early pioneer who exploited the concept mostly with a lot of marketecture. While everyone, including me, laughs at the Boses, there were a lot of things he did right. I can drop my 601 series III in any room, and to the untrained ear, they sound great! In fact, if you have an open concept, and are listening to music while grazing around, they are terrific! One of the things he did right was to kill the bass. In any typical room, bass is very difficult to wrestle with and that just turns off people who want to just "plug and play". I've lent my Boses out to four different friends over the years and they love them dearly. Of course then they listen to my v4 and are blown away with what they've been missing.

The rear LFR drivers enforce the "Early Reflections" curve. When this curve is brought up closer to the level of the Listening Window, magic happens! You get an enormous sound-stage and wrap-around with virtual images to die for. It's not as simple as just slapping on some rear drivers though. The front and rear drivers have to work in concert across the mids otherwise you get attenuation in the response. Bose knew that too. That's why his "free space array" at the top of the 601s has multi-directional tweeters yet a mid-range that points forward. He could not control mid-range reflections using analog means so he chose to reflect highs only.

Like you say, there is a delay somewhere but I can't be sure where or how much. I say that because those rear drivers are also reflecting off the front wall. To understand where you need to add a delay and how much that delay should be and for what frequency range(s), you really need to characterize loudspeaker behavior all the way around. Then you look at the curves and decide what you need to boost, what you need to attenuate, what delay needs to be added and of course that is some of the secret sauce right there. The DSP makes implementing all that so easy.

Here's the poem sung to the tune of "We Three Kings from Orient Are". This is my interpretation of the spinorama from stuff I've read mostly from Floyd Toole:

We six curves of Axiom are
30 years old we've come so far
every one eighteenth pi rad, an anechoic curve we add
of spinorama data not scalar.

Refrain:

O curves of tone and SPL
curves with similar shape and flare
gentle slope, low Q nope
perfect sound these curves foretell.

Direct sound real flat without any gain
"Axial Response" that is my name
simple content, most important
over all curves I reign.

Repeat refrain

A "Listening Window" nine curves mean am I
0 to +/-30 degrees across, 10 degrees down, 10 degrees high
within a dB, these curves must be
for listeneners to joyously sigh.

Repeat refrain

Image width, stability, timbre to tame
+/-40, 60, 80 across and 50 down and high's the game
most that we hear, bounce from quite near
"Early Reflections" is my aim.

Repeat refrain

A speaker's signature doth we take now
weighted mean of 70 curves is how
downward tilting, no broad wilting
"Sound Power" curve art thou.

Repeat refrain

The "DI" curve is the cash cow
the "Listening Window" from "Sound Power" take away now
closer to zero, it's a hero
listeners will procalaim a big "Wow!"

Repeat refrain

One last curve is for finesse
"Early Reflections" from "Sound Power" we minus
lateral prophylaxis, from far-off axis
"Early Reflections DI" shows polar bias.

Repeat refrain

Low DI with curves smooth and similar
disperse the sound as not to be insular
audio pornography, via sonic holography
sharp images spaced out renders them singular.

Repeat refrain

Axiom's direct radiators sound great when they're played
sound power declining 3dB per decade
if that DI, is a bit high
constant, low DI LFRs can be yours via trade.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/25/19 12:35 PM

Rich, I don't know if these active LFRs will work in Massachusetts with that funny electrical code of yours...LOL!
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/25/19 03:46 PM

The laws of physics may be a bit different down here too.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 05/25/19 06:00 PM

Yeah...you pilgrims brought different laws over.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 06/30/19 06:20 PM

Not pilgrims ... politicians... the law of physics or anything else work only as they declare them to ... at least according to them
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/08/19 05:49 PM

That's the lovely benefit of democracy. You have the freedom to choose your own pains.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/08/19 06:15 PM

Off Topic
Actually the people who are hurt the most are the ones who believe ... a lot of people only listen to or only have access to one side of an issue ... so to them it's obvious what is right even if it's not true (or not the whole truth). To them they see the hand waiving a carrot in front of their face while not seeing or understanding that they will lose so much more.

This combined with a broken government is going to be our down fall if not corrected soon. .... a bit depressing ...
Let's get back to audio ...
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/08/19 06:31 PM

Perhaps that is better than having so much choice, which people misinterpret as greater freedom, that it becomes a distraction rather than a benefit.

By the way, my last comment applies to audio too. You can tell by my signature how distracted I am. smile
Posted by: brendo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/09/19 05:13 PM

So back to audio...

What is the actual difference? Between going Active and just Bi Amping?
I get there's an external crossover. Can you adjust the crossover to your own liking? Or is it each set of particular drivers needs to be powered? In their own ranges?

Would using a lower power Amp. or Tube Amp. for the highs be advisable? Similar to Bi Amping.{Tweets use little power}

I've heard some darn impressive results from Active configurations bigger dynamics and body more open.

But aside from having hundreds too thousands of Watt's per speaker. What would really be the most beneficial reasons?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/09/19 06:06 PM

Brendo, the net effects of digital, active cross-overs are about a 3dB improvement in sensitivity, improved imaging, improved soundstage and improved micro and macro dynamics.

The 3dB improvement in sensitivity is a result of the elimination of the traditional analog, passive cross-over. Yes, that's right, half the power you sink into a speaker is turned to heat by the traditional crossover. Put 250W in, 125W of that goes into heating the room as a result of the crossover. frown

All the other improvements are partly due to much greater control with the spinoroma (family of parametric) curves. The DSP gives the designer a lot of freedom to "flatten this" and "boost that" in a more granular manner. Phase response can also be improved. So can transient response although there is a trade-off there between transient response and frequency response. Then there is also the greater control that an external amp can have over the driver directly with the traditional crossover eliminated.

Your questions about the type of amp and the power required are very good. Axiom I am sure will eventually publish specifications for its driver arrays to make sure that customers can marry them up with their choice of amplification. Or maybe not although that wouldn't be the Ian we know who likes to give customers choice. I suppose Axiom could introduce amps that make the most of their active line and leave the present ADAs to the legacy (analog crossover) speakers. I really believe a new line of amps would make the actives shine even more and that's all I'll say about this publicly. Nothing wrong with the ADAs for the current lines though and in the interim for the actives.

I have no doubt the actives will sound significantly better. I know first hand what havoc analog filters wreak on a design as environmental conditions and part specs (due to tolerances) change. Active filters don't suffer from these limitations. You hear about better crossover parts and all that is true and I've witnessed it on the v4. But, no matter what you do, those parts drift particularly when you're pouring gobs of current into the speaker. If you listen closely, you can hear the effects. That's not your ears objecting to the SPL; that's the speaker objecting as it shifts from its design limits!

Axiom is just starting to scratch the surface with actives. Actives are a geek's haven! Ditto with LFRs.

I'll also add in here that Ian has been obsessed his whole life with eeking the maximum possible performance from his existing driver architecture. No one's told me this - all you have to do is watch what he's been doing and it's pretty darned obvious. That's another reason why he's one of my heroes. I think the actives will open up an entirely new area of research for Axiom. There is stuff happening inside those drivers that actives will naturally expose. I am not saying there's anything wrong with the drivers. I am saying that more knowledge will be gained about how to make them even better. This is the nature of scientific inquiry and the pleasure of finding things out.
Posted by: brendo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/10/19 07:30 PM

That's where my confusion comes in. At some point there's still an external crossover. So wouldn't that need a chassis for the heat? Plus still limit the drivers to their desired ranges?

I also believe that the ADA Amps are Axioms own specific custom design. Around the time I became an Axiom customer 2013/2014 the blog had some in depth articles and some you tube vids. regarding creating their own design and the differences of typical class D and the ADA.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/10/19 08:19 PM

Originally Posted By brendo
That's where my confusion comes in. At some point there's still an external crossover. So wouldn't that need a chassis for the heat? Plus still limit the drivers to their desired ranges?

I also believe that the ADA Amps are Axioms own specific custom design. Around the time I became an Axiom customer 2013/2014 the blog had some in depth articles and some you tube vids. regarding creating their own design and the differences of typical class D and the ADA.


The external crossover handles everything as a digital "preamp" that separates the signals. We are talking less than a volt in terms of power at this point.

A passive crossover is taking the high powered signal from the power amp, which is where it loses the 3 dB.

In the case of the Active Speakers, each woofer/midrange/tweeter is connected to the dedicated amp that already has the response curve for the crossover sent to it from the DSP.

There are no resistors, capacitors, extra wiring nor anything else between the amp and the speakers.

Another benefit: If one is listening to music with powerful deep bass and female vocals - The mids are delivering the vocals, which won't have the amp being taxed by the deep bass.

Headroom will increase, no signal will be lost. It's all good science.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/11/19 02:19 AM

To add to Craig's comments, it is the high currents and voltages and heat liberated from the voice coils that cause part specs on the traditional crossover housed inside the speaker cabinet to drift. When those specs drift, amplitude, phase and transient response are all negatively impacted and the effects are audible.

As Craig said, the voltages and currents in the DSP-based digital filter are a lot lower. The signal voltages the DSP deals with are no larger than about 7 Volts and currents are much less than an Amp...likely one tenth of an amp. Contrast that to over 100 Volts and 40 Amps (sourced from an amp) that an analog crossover has to deal with. On top of that load, the voice coil of an HP driver reaches 200 degrees C. Some of that heat gets excreted through the sphincters, some is radiated off the glorious aluminum dust caps and the remainder is trapped in the cabinet and affects the performance of the crossover components (and the voice coil itself). These nasty effects don't take place inside the DSP box.

The DSP can also bring benefits that Axiom isn't currently exploiting. For example, by monitoring the temperature of the voice coils, the digital filter coefficients can be adjusted to compensate for the rise in resistance of the coils (as much as double) due to temperature.

As for the ADA amps, within the present industry paradigm, they are a very good value particularly for multi-channel.



Posted by: wschwartz

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/11/19 06:24 AM

What about the "active" technology, e.g. Apple's HomePod, that listens to the in-room audio and adjusts output in real time? I wonder if Axiom has experimented with that, and what it could contribute to Axiom sound.

I also still wonder if Axiom has tested the HomePod and can shed light on what Apple has, and hasn't, accomplished with their active tech in such a small package.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/11/19 04:35 PM

wschwartz, that's exactly where Axiom is heading. The road there leads to active speakers first. Can you not see Ian's product roadmap in your mind's eye? smile
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/12/19 07:13 AM

Hi wschwartz,

The claim from Apple is that "an internal bass-EQ microphone, analyzes and compensates for the effect of the room on the bass response". The problem with this is that the microphone would need to be on you for this to work. Further you would need some sort of known bass sound to be produced by the speaker and received by the microphone to make the correction.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/12/19 08:48 AM

The best method for perfect bass that I have found to date is with Audyssey XT-32. Here are the caveats:

1. Make sure you can bypass the main speakers and only have the subwoofers eq'ed. Marantz allows this in both the 7700 and 8800 series pre-amps.

2. Make sure you follow instructions at all listening positions.

3. Make sure you select "bypass mains" in the menu.

4. Double check whether you used dynamic eq or not. Dynamic eq sets a great house curve for movies, and can be fun on AC/DC style rock, but for the most accurate, deep bass, set it to flat.

Doing the above has our EP800's flat to 11 Hz in room (yes we measured it and posted the curve at Home Theater Forum) without the EQ interfering with the performance of the main speakers.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/12/19 02:05 PM

My Onk's implementation does not allow me to by-pass the mains. I think the answer is a new pre/pro. smile
Posted by: brwsaw

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/13/19 01:50 AM

Originally Posted By craigsub
Doing the above has our EP800's flat to 11 Hz in room.


New item added to my bucket list
Posted by: BBIBH

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/13/19 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By brwsaw
Originally Posted By craigsub
Doing the above has our EP800's flat to 11 Hz in room.


New item added to my bucket list


Yeah, that is definitely impressive!
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/13/19 09:40 AM

Craig
Do you have any treatment to control base?
Any pictures of your room?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/13/19 02:09 PM

It's 25 x 24 with 8.5 ceiling and not treated.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/under-1000-subwoofer-review-thread.343857/%3famp=1446124323?espv=1
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 07/13/19 02:19 PM

This is also good work by Craig. 19 months in, I continue to be very happy with my 800v4.

https://www.hometheaterforum.com/communi...2/#post-4451495
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/10/19 02:23 PM

Spec says the active has a 4 ohm impedance... is that for all 5 inputs? The graph looks like itís left over from the passive with two curves ... guess front and back (I assume the lower one is for the front ... )
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/10/19 05:08 PM

Axiom has not announced the specs for each driver array. I am very curious. I think those triple HP woofers will be good to 1000W average and 4000W peak.

Regarding the amplitude response, Ian posted it on these boards. The Listening Window and Sound Power are one!
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/10/19 10:35 PM

I'm wondering if the front woofers impedance is way less then 4 ohms .... in that case you may get your wish ... but ... depending on the answer your average amp may not play nice with them.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/10/19 11:51 PM

The triple HP woofer array is 4 Ohms and I think it might dip down to 3.2 Ohms in the bass region. This is no problem for an ADA-1500.
Posted by: Ian

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/19/19 06:14 PM

We have posted the correct Frequency Graph in the Specifications section of the product page for the LFR1100 Active now. Just need to do the Impedance Graph so it shows all five driver sections.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/19/19 07:04 PM

Hot damn. Those curves signify awesomeness! Craig, you're one fortunate dude.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/19/19 07:08 PM

Thanks Ian... do you have the nominal impedances for the 5?
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/19/19 08:46 PM

What's needed are impedance curves and nominal and peak power levels for the driver arrays so listeners can decide on appropriate amplification for the wee beasties.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/19/19 09:24 PM

Actually at the moment Iím trying to figure out where my amps should go. High Impedences makes it easier to put all the heat in a well ventilated closet (I.e. use longer speaker cables).
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/19/19 09:57 PM

Those woofers are gonna pull 12A nominal and 25A peak. If you're going with separate amps, I'd say put the woofer amps by the LFR. Otherwise wire them with that 0000 cable I posted. smile

On the other hand, you should try to keep the signal cables as short as possible to minimize interference. I think you should hire a P.E. to investigate this and come up with stamped drawings.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 10:55 AM

I figure if the wire resistance is < then say 1/100 of the nominal speaker impedance then I'm probably in pretty good shape (damping > 100).

So for an 8 ohm speaker 12AWG copper wire is good for about 25'. Run two in parallel for 4 ohms ... etc (easier/cheaper In most cases than getting wire below 10 AWG). So for the price of a 500' spool of 12 AWG copper speaker wire I'm in business as long as there are not too many 2-4 ohm connections to be driven.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 11:31 AM

I think you should get the Laplace transforms of the amp outputs, speaker inputs and cable and do a transient and spectral analysis. If these are not available, just run an impulse response to get the transfer functions. Otherwise, how could you possibly sleep at night?
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 11:42 AM

Mojo,

Peak amperage numbers (and wattage numbers) are fun to throw around and I guess for those of us who like to push our systems to their limits there might be some merit to justify designing to them smile ...

For me, I think I'd be hard pressed to hear the distortion introduced by the speaker wire even if the damping fell well below 50 at some frequencies .... (just run the voltage divider math and convert that to db down and I think you'll see what I mean).
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 11:50 AM

Originally Posted By Mojo
I think you should get the Laplace transforms of the amp outputs, speaker inputs and cable and do a transient and spectral analysis. If these are not available, just run an impulse response to get the transfer functions. Otherwise, how could you possibly sleep at night?
Mojo you have the gift of gobbledygook. A double speak man extraordinaire.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 12:18 PM

I am working on software right now that does what I described above. Not for audio gear though.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 02:09 PM

Mojo, I'm just having fun with you having fun ... My hat is off to you ... it's definitely first rate high class gobbledygook ...

Think gobbledygook is defined something like ... "sound like official tech speak without any real content" (although knowing you're working on something real gives us some context).

The problem with all that fun is that it could shut down people if they don't know you're having fun. Also sometimes the thread topic gets lost if there is too much of it. (but the latter seems to happen around here anyway ... gobbledygook or not smile )
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 03:48 PM

All that stuff I said up above is real math. Axiom uses some of it in their DSPs. Sometimes I make up stuff to keep Alan Lofft on his toes.

You are correct that if these boards are to be used for knowledge only, I've been grossly negligent. I learned from the best like MarkSJohnson, pmbuko, Ken.C, medic8r and others.

Back to the topic at hand...impedance...which incidentally can be calculated by the FFT of the impulse response. laugh
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 06:47 PM

Mojo I believe you. And I believe everything you said about your programming project. All I was sayin, was when you take meaningful words from one context (in this case your project) and stick them some place else (like this thread) without setting context then you get gobbledygook....
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 07:42 PM

All that stuff I said is real and you can do it on your audio equipment. It just sounds like gobbledygook...LOL! My project has 83 people working on that gobbledygook alone. I wish it was audio; it would be far easier.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By Ian
We have posted the correct Frequency Graph in the Specifications section of the product page for the LFR1100 Active now. Just need to do the Impedance Graph so it shows all five driver sections.


These speakers may just make winter tolerable.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
Hot damn. Those curves signify awesomeness! Craig, you're one fortunate dude.


Life is good. The Magico dealer who tossed me out for challenging him to a double blind test between his $250,000 Magico/McIntosh system to my $15,000 LFR-1100 based system will probably not even let me in the store.

And I was REALLY nice, too!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 09:34 PM

That would be a very interesting comparison. Who do you speculate would come out on top?
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 09:40 PM

Originally Posted By Mojo
That would be a very interesting comparison. Who do you speculate would come out on top?


The Magico speakers were quite good - But they didn't seem to live up to the hype. It is hard to even speculate - The store is 100 miles away from my place. It was funny though, when I explained that Axiom makes Bryston's speakers, and that the Bryson line up is worth looking at, the manager just got irritated.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 09:51 PM

Hmmm...would that Magico set-up be 16.7 times as good as the LFR set-up? Where's Mattman?
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 09:51 PM

High end audio seems to be a lot like high end anything else only more so ...
One pays a very large tax for ďpride of ownershipĒ which should not be confused with performance
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 09:57 PM

Axiom is high end audio. They sound like high end audio.
Posted by: craigsub

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 10:07 PM

Originally Posted By rrlev
High end audio seems to be a lot like high end anything else only more so ...
One pays a very large tax for ďpride of ownershipĒ which should not be confused with performance


This is true - high end audio is probably the worst. This store also sells Goldenear - the dullest sounding high end speaker I ever heard. Before he got pissed at me, the manager and I had a laugh that over half of their Goldenear speakers sold were based on reviews and the customers didn't even listen to them.

The Magico stuff is ALL about snob appeal.
Posted by: rrlev

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 10:24 PM

Mojo ... let me see if I can narrow that down ... esoteric high end ... usually highly marketed, usually visually stunning with fine workmanship and over the top materials, usually in limited supply, sometimes lunatical in function, and always priced beyond the reach of the typical guy (at least with any sanity) as the price justifies its value ...

maybe someone else can come up with a better def
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/20/19 10:30 PM

Hmmmm...yeah...high end is not necessarily synonymous with high fidelity.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/21/19 12:13 AM

I'm chilling with my M50s by candlelight while thumbing my new Opinel no. 8. Low end audio has never sounded so good!
Posted by: Mojo

Re: LFR1100 Active - 08/21/19 06:45 AM

I'm looking again at the curves Ian posted. They're a real piece of work. Declining 3dB/decade from 100Hz to 20KHz.

Besides this, I still can't get over the fact that each active LFR will be capable of somewhere between 124dB and 130dB dynamically at 3 feet. The ADA-1500 should easily be able to deliver the requisite 4800W. The 1500 I have is peaking out at 2800W on my M100s and those of course have an analog crossover which presents more load. As I've said before, that 2800W I'm measuring may not be a true peak due to my meter.