A couple of weeks ago, my daughters were having a front yard camp out party. About 11:30 pm they came tearing into the house shouting "Dad, there's a whole pack of coyotes out there - must be 50 of 'em".

I explained to them that they must be hearing foxes. We live between Winston-Salem and Greensboro, and although we are in the woods, there are no coyotes around here.

Next night, my wife wakes me up about 5 am and drags me out onto the screen porch. The sounds were hair raising. It sounded like someone was slaughtering puppies. I would estimate maybe 75 yards up into the woods was the distance. I could make out 5 or 6 different voices - not 50.

Later that morning when we had all gotten up for the day, one of my daughters found a youtube video of coyotes at a zoo in Texas that sounded just like what we had heard.

That night around 10 pm, we heard them again, slightly further away and in a different direction. This time in addition to the dying puppy sounds, we heard the more traditional "cowboy movie" howling.

I have an outdoor cat that I am pretty sure is on borrowed time. I bring her into the garage at night but......I also have a 50 lb German Short Haired Pointer and a 60 lb Black Lab mix that stay in a dog lot duirng the day but come in at night. The hope is that if one of the beasts gets into the pen, between the 2 dogs they can hold their own.

I hadn't heard the coyotes in 3 weeks, but last night around 10 the slaughtering puppies were back and close to the dog pen. I grabbed my turkey gun, loaded some #4's in, grabbed a light and went out to fetch the dogs and hope the cat was around. It is not unusal for the cat to have scaled the dog lot fence and be in the house with the dogs. She was not there but came running up a few moments later.

Some of you must have had experience with coyotes - anyone ever try shooting them? Any recomendations on a long gun? I have the Mossberg for turkey hunting and pistols for fun but no rifles............Rob

If you live near the Mexican border, might want to make sure what type of Coyotes they are before shooting!

That Mossburg will do the trick. You could buy a slug barrel for it and that would devastate those beasts. These Hornady slugs are awesome.

Here's a thought, don't shoot them.

Coyotes are found far and wide across North America, usually alone but sometimes gather in small packs (not nearly as large as wolf packs). They are typically scavengers and shy away from humans but do hunt small mammals (mice, young or cornered rabbits, whatever is easy).
Much like other scavengers, they will come for garbage and yes, those who think cats need to be outdoors may also lose such small creatures.

If your dogs bark and are of any size, it is unlikely the coyotes will bother them. If they have a pen/dog run, they are that much safer.

But for the sake of not being another human trying to define their idea of nature, leave the coyotes alone unless they pose an obvious threat directly to you or your family that cannot be deterred with something as simple as a fence.

An altenative is to contact a local conservation authority possibly to trap and relocate them.

They have a season for hunting them here in IL. You should check your local ordinances about taking coyotes.

They sure as heck aren't on the endangered species list here in IL, that's for sure.

Volvos are good for taking out foxes. My wife hit one in her S40 doing 60+ mph a couple of years ago. Nearly vaporized the fox. Didn't do anything to the car.

As wid says, we have a *lot* of coyotes in Illinois. A month or so ago, my wife had to catch a red-eye flight for a business trip. Since I live in the middle of nowhere, we had to leave home around 3am and drive for an hour or so to get her to the airport. We were *amazed* at the number of coyotes we saw on the road. In the 2+ hours of driving, there and back, I saw probably 15-20 coyotes along the road at that time of night. Some were tearing apart a freshly-killed deer carcasses (ones apparently hit by a car - not that the coyotes killed it), while others were just standing at the side of the road. Sometimes alone, sometimes in packs of 3-4. But they were just everywhere. Really bizzare. I've heard tales from folks that live outside of town that raise chickens/horses/cattle of problems with packs of coyotes. They are not considered a harmless nuisance around here.

We are glad that our two cats are strictly indoor pets.

There's coyotes scattered around here in Peel Region, I've never seen more than one at a time, but years ago, a man walking his dog on the biking paths here, had his pet attacked and killed by a pack of coyotes. I'm guessing it was a small pack but it's surprising they attacked with the owner there as generally they stay well away from people. Personally, I'd call up the town and have them remove/relocate them, but I live in semi-urban type area.

My suggestions would be not to kill them. What you heard sounds very normal. They are usually out at night/early monring so my suggestion to you is to keep your dogs indoor once it starts getting dark. Things that will attract them is other animals especially a female dog that is in heat and garbage. Keep your dogs inside once its dark, kids supervised and make sure the area around your house is free of any garbage.Surrounding farms with chickens and other animals will also more likely to attract them to your area. Those are some good preventative measures.

I hear coyotes all the time, I see them cutting out in the road in packs as well. This summer we even a single coyote that wanders our field in the day time (this is not usually a good sign). I have gone out there and the thing seemed very skidish and was aware of every little noise in the surroundings, I kept my distance of course and it just wandered off. It had a beautiful coat.

Did ya ever wonder what would happen if a NASCAR stock car hit a coyote at 130 mph?

Wiley couldn't run fast enough...

Beep, Beep!

I've heard of grilled chicken....I've heard of grilled salmon, pork, steak and a whole lot of other things, but never have I heard of grilled coyote.

Yeah.....the full choke would have to come off

That turkey barrel should be able to reach out and touch a few of them too. They put a pretty tight choke on those.

One of the local TV stations (WXII12.COM - that is wxii12.com) was interviewing a NC Wildlife Ranger a couple of days ago. Quite coincidentally, in the background - a field next to a housing development - a coyote took down a deer. The cameraman did not capture the take down but he did get on the action immediately after. The coyote had the deer in the classic choke hold in an attempt to suffocate it. Something - probably the interview - spooked the coyote and it let go of the deer and took off. You can see the deer jump up and I don't think it was full grown but it did not have the spots of a fawn either. One thing is certain, it was much bigger than a rabbit. Te video is still on the website - scroll down and look on the right side for it.

Additionally, I have a friend that lives near me that has Weimeraners. Her largest is a bit overweight at around 80 lbs. Her dog was attacked - presumably by more than one coyote a couple of years ago and barely survived the attack. 80 stitches and multiple drainage tubes.

Further the Wildlife service here also cautioned about leaving children under the age of 12 unattended and that adults should be careful when crouching (like when weeding the garden) as the lessened presence could be considered as vulnerable thereby provoking an attack.

I am as big a nature lover as anyone - that is one reason that I live in the woods. I do not want me or my wife to have to look over our shoulder everytime we crouch outside the house.

We have a similar story - We know a man that was walking his dog at dusk near a wooded area. A coyote sprang from ambush, attacked and killed the dog - while the owner was holding the leash. I would think that when they are in a small "pack" that they are probably bolder than when alone. I can assure you that I was doing my best "rear guard" impression last night when I was bringing the dogs in from their lot to the house.

I think one of the things bothering me is the close proximity to the house and the fact that familiarity has apparently bred contempt within the coyotes towards humans.

My kids are both in college - but there are neighbors with small children. Additionally there is a cow farm through the woods where I hear the coyotes. My land borders the cow fence. They used to have a donkey - haven't seen or heard it in a year. I have heard that a donkey will rasie the alarm at something like a coyote. They also used to have guinea hens - I'll have to listen to see if I still hear them.

Yes, I had a "rabbit kill" in my yard last winter. Strange thing is, up until (at least) when we moved to Florida in 85'.....we had none. I also have noticed we now have sea gulls, egrets, gray herons, humming birds, etc., I don't recall seeing, or hearing about back in the day, either.
Hmmmm, the animals are moving around the country, too.

Goes to show ya that the environment has been cleaned up to the point these species are making a comeback here in IL. I love seeing the different hawks too.

My brother works for the park district and he has reported seeing what he says is a wolf where he works. Now that's something else.

The state of Florida has issued 13 permits to hunt and kill Burmese Pythons in the Everglades, seems like the pet snakes that irresponsible owners set free have reached some very huge sizes and now it's time to clean up their mess. The state is actually talking about banning the Burmese Python in Florida ... I wonder if they'll ban crackheads also, that would be the place to start.

While working I've noticed several coyotes in the past year or so, something I've never seen in Florida until then. I did see a Florida panther about two years ago, that was cool.

It's hard to understand someone getting some of these pets that they know will become difficult to look after down the road(certain snakes, alligators, some types of turtles ect). For some animals raised in captivity, it's difficult for them to survive in the wild when they're let go, not so much the reptiles though.

Do I see a pair of snake skin cowboy boots in your future, Rick?

We have a lot of coyotes on PEI now. They are not native and only came across the ice in my lifetime to make a home. Rabbits are starting to make a comeback but they were almost wiped out and foxes starting getting very bold as their food stalks started to be shared by the competition.

Coyotes will definitely hunt larger prey than their wiki inscriptions might imply and can be a serious pest. Locally, we have had a serious issue with cats, small dogs, old large dogs, sheep, calves, basically anything that two or three of them could drag down.

Farmers have countered by renewing the age old practice of keeping a donkey mixed in with the livestock. Donkeys kick coyote ass, literally. Lamas also became an odd but common sight as they seem to share a donkeys hatred for coyotes. Actually, now you see herds of lamas where before people would stop to take a picture of one.

Last winter I had an unusually big one wander through my backyard on his own. It was the first time I saw one up close. I've always assumed they were thin and mangy looking as often described but this guy was well fed and had a relatively nice coat. Only his coloring and his long, rabbit hole poking snout let you know for sure he was a coyote.

I haven't owned a gun since high school but there is a continuous bounty on them here and if they keep getting this bold, I might invest in another.

I assume you have seen this shocking photo? Snake! If not for the wide reporting and photo I would never have believed it.

As for the coyote problem, you are entitled to deal with it. If the suburban tricks like a fence or stay in after dark don't work for you, you have the right to discourage their interaction with your family and pets. You can pick up a cheap/used .22 LR rifle for varmint control that won't make your back yard sound like a battle zone but gives you the power to reach out and touch the rascals.

I'm a nature lover too, but growing up in "the sticks" near many wild and domestic animals, you just have to accept the balance of nature now requires human interaction at some level. On the other hand, perhaps this level works best for you:

And heck, who does not like mounting a $12,000 night vision scope on a military grade rifle to...clear the cobwebs from the brain?

That jives with my experience. There is a retired Police Officer that bought a farm just down the road from where I work. He raised exotic goats, cattle and sheep. To protect his herds he got a couple of Great Pyrenese dogs. Great Pyrenese were originally bred to protect sheep from wolves. He told me that since he got the dogs, he has stopped the coyote predation that was decimating his young animals.......Rob

Zim,
I knew I could count on you for a well thought out and considered response. I laughed out loud here at work when I read the "clear the cobwebs from the brain" comment. ALso your comment about "checks and balances" certainly rings true. Deer are overrunning the area of NC where I live. I like to see them as much as the next person, but natural checks and balances are way out of whack and the number of road kills is growing dramatically. Maybe that is part of the "new order checks and balances". I think the same thing is happening with the coyotes.

My father-in-law tells me I need a bolt action. I asked him about a mini-14 - he said he would rather have the accuracy of the bolt action?......

Was it Tony sitting in a chair cradling a AK47 in his backyard at night or was it Furio his bodyguard?....anyhoo there was a storyline of a bear roaming their backyard throughout season 5 and this thread reminded me of that. Kind of makes me want to watch that season now. One of the best seasons of Sopranos along with 1 & 2.

Here in Illinois? That's interesting because I have met people that *claim* to have seen wolves over by the Pike & Calhoun county areas (north of St. Louis - between the Illinois & Mississippi rivers - very rural area). I don't believe it, but I have met more than one person that has a story about it.

Of course, there are plenty of folks that believe in Bigfoot too.

There's been the occasional bear sighting around the Toronto/GTA over the last few years with one coming as far down as Hamilton a couple of years back and just North of T.O. in Barrie. I'm near 30 mi NW of Toronto and they have found bear droppings in this area but no sightings. Some cottagers, esp in the Kawartha area out Peterborough way, have reported cougar sitings, can't remember if the gov't was reintroducing them or not, but they had preyed on people's pets according to my neighbour who owns a cottage out that way.

Well, maybe the wildlife is turning the tables....they've decided to encrouch on HUMANS for a change, lol.

There are large numbers of coyotes living in the park across the road from my house. I don't see them very often, in fact it's possible that what I am seeing is the occasional wolf (the ones I see seem to be the wrong size and color for coyotes).

If you can keep your pets inside at night that would sure help.

Don't think I would feel comfortable shooting a coyote with a 22LR; that seems too light for a clean kill. The standard coyote rifle seems to start with .22 centerfire, and the most common seems to be .223 assuming there is still any ammo available in North America. A shotgun would be very effective as long as you weren't too far away, so ideal for the ones that get too close and don't seem to be scared away.

That's no lie. I have a hard time finding 9mm and when I do it's double the price it was last year.

Was it this year or last when people were stockpiling ammo? are they enforcing new restrictions or something now?

Come on, where is your sporting spirit - no fun if it is not a challenge. And .223 is combat ammo, so I tend to avoid that if you have neighbors. I used to shoot snakes with my Dad with a .22 pistol from a boat. It did not count unless you hit them in the head. Shooting a dog sized animal in the head with a rifle barrel and a scope is easy. Basically, what I'm trying to say is:

General Dodonna: Well, the Empire doesn't consider a small one-man fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense. An analysis of the plans provided by Princess Leia has demonstrated a weakness in the battle station. But the approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station. Only a precise hit will set off a chain reaction. The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use proton torpedoes.

Wedge Antilles (Red 2): That's impossible! Even for a computer.

Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.

We all now a Womp Rat is just a coyote from along time ago, in a galaxy far far away, so this is a reliable source.

It started last year. Then when the new administration came to office it really got bad.

It's amusing because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The fear was that the Obama administration would pass laws restricting the sales of certain kinds of guns or ammo, which would make it hard or impossible to buy. So people started stockpiling. That created the very shortage/acquisition difficulties that they feared. Not because of an evil government, but because of their own actions. Yay.

I'd still like to shoot the sh**!@#$$A$$!!!** that shot my last dog at the back of our property. Someone is gonna hate me for this, but we got tires of the dumba$$ Americans that showed up with their 3030s to take pot shots at squirells without permission. Hmmm, two rants in 10 minutes. I'm a mite cranky tonight!

Actually, most of those "stockpiling" ammo, are just trying to beat the price increases, and rumoured huge tax increases. How do I know? It's easy, I've been in several gun shops, and the local big box stores, and talked to people who know.
Sadly, hoarding is all too common, when people hear of pending large price/tax increases, or
coming shortages, on almost ANY products.

No prophecy...........not too amusing, imo.

Yeah, and another thing not too amusing is that even some of our local LE departments have been having supply problems.

A lot of the problem is the manufactures didn't see this coming. I have heard it will take a couple of years to catch up. One other MAJOR reason for the shortage is the war effort.



Anyone, American or not, that uses a "3030" for a squirrel is a "dumb-ass".

Sorry to hear about your dog.

I'm sure it is a small minority of gun owners, but they sure manage to piss a lot of people off. The dog thing happened a long time ago, but it still gets my riled sometimes.

That would be my greatest concern if I were a hunter: the 1 out of 20 guys who sees something move, 'shoots first then checks what he just killed after the fact' or the other guy with the high powered rifle firing across the lake at something he "thinks" is a moose. There's definately some people out there who shouldn't be allowed in the same time zone as a fire arm, like the yahoos out west who posted a video on Youtube shooting ducks, inc hatchlings "for fun" in a local pond.

"Cheney's Got a Gun".....

I spent many summers on a cattle ranch in Nevada pushing cows, mending fences, putting up hay and growing up the cowboy life. Coyotes, as well as jack rabbits, were devastating to crops and livestock. The rabbits would decimate a field, and the damn coyotes would kill the new born calves. Needless to say, I killed a lot of coyotes and jack rabbits. Coyotes are not the easiest critter to shoot. Good luck with the 22 and shotgun. You’ll never get close enough to use either. I’ve hunted for better than 30 years and I’ve never seen a critter as evasive as a coyote. The damn things will be trotting along through the sage brush two hundred yards away at 2:00 in plain sight, disappear, and then pop up behind you. They must have some sort of sixth sense that they can tell a human has a bead on them. They drop to their bellies and crawl amazingly fast, then poof – their gone. The only way I was ever successful, was long range shooting over 200 yards with a mini-14. As soon as I saw one, I’d give the horizon a quick look for anything I didn’t want to shoot, then I’d just start shooting. Most of the time the coyote was out of range, so I’d have to make a dust cloud and adjust elevation. – I also found that using a scope hindered my reaction time, so I used peep sights.

All that aside, I don’t think you need to fear for your family. Coyotes are extremely skittish and they do not grow bolder in packs like some of the Aussie critters and wild dogs do, which are very dangerous. Coyotes will kill your chickens and anything else you have running around though.

Unless you keep roadrunners, right?

What you want BWAAAH, is a nice good EAT'N CHICKEN!!

Michael,
I had never heard of coyotes being in packs at all - I alway thought they were solitary. So I theorized that this may be a mother with this year's litter. I am not really worried about my family - except the pets. My wife is a bit preturbed over the comment the NC Wildlife group made about not crouching. She likes to work in the flower beds and is concerned that she is making herself a target.

I actually looked at the mini 14s on line yesterday despite my father-in-law's advice to get a bolt action. Ruger markets it as a couple of models - one of them called the "Ranch" model. There is a picture of a coyote next to the mini 14 on the website. Unfortunately, there are no great site distances here - so if I was even got a shot op, It would be a quick chance. The peepsite would be easier to acquire the target than if I got a scope. Of course, now that I am pondering a rifle, my wife is telling me it is just another "toy"......

Honestly, I think the whole crouching comment is ludicrous. Coyotes will not come near a human, regardless of the “profile” they make. Unless you have some strange neighbors that have befriended them and they’ve become very used to humans, I wouldn’t worry about that comment.

The mini I used to have was a stainless model with folding stock, came with a 20 round clip and used standard 223 rounds. Some models shoot NATO 7.62X39 rounds, but don’t get those. They aren’t worth a crap over 50 yards. I was able to get a few 40 round clips before they were banned too. With coyote shooting, they just move so darn fast, I couldn’t ever get more than one shot off before they’d disappear with a bolt action. That’s why I used the mini. There is no recoil, it shoots very accurate up to 300 yards, and with 40 rounds at your immediate disposal….. well – enough said about that.

No if you are looking for a hunting rifle, that’s an entirely different discussion.

Mike,
Nope - not really looking for a hunting rifle - more what folks call around here "varmint gun". I don't think the mini is exactly what folks have in mind but I think it will suit my needs just fine......Rob

Why didn't you say you were willing to look at a mini-gun. Check out the coyote carnage in this video using a mini-gun on the open plains. Mini on Coyote duty

I guess we know what they do with the "Cash for Clunkers" trade-ins now.

Take a look at this link. My theory: We have traditionally been told that Coyotes heat rabbits and small game. After seeing the footage on a local News Broadcast of the coyote taking down the whitetail and now this.....
http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr/9000/9338811/Coyotes_kill_woman_on_hike_in_Canadian_park
There is a new super strain of coyotes out there - Possibly in response to the release of the new Twilight movie next month?

A very sad story for sure.

Pro tip: don't hike alone.

Or carry a .357....

Check the "Acme" catalogue, although most of their equipment seems geared towards roadrunners.....

I started out to the woods yesterday and met my neighbor driving down the road. He asked if I had heard the coyotes the other night "must have been 20 of 'em" - which I think is a bit of an exaggeration. I did go back to the house and pick up my Ruger GP100 though.......

That's a nice revolver.

Mine is essentially the same....S&W 686 Plus in 6" form....

I'm familiar with the 686, my nephew had one for a while. It too is a nice piece.

I just picked up a Browning Buckmark Camper, like brand new, for $100. It was dropping a mag; so after researching it there was a grip screw that was the culprit. Put some fingernail polish on the screw, tightened it up and just like new again.

Mine shoots water, and it's accurate at a slightly greater range than clown flowers. Good luck to any coyote that tries to get the better of me.

Especially if the pack is sporting clown flowers.

ie....never bring a clown flower to a water gun fight....

Mark, I'm going to have to commission a painting of that. Seriously.

OK, but you had better show it to us.

"And, it was on velvet.

And, it was good."

Yup. And....I don't have retarded sexual behavior either.

After much research, the purchase of a Ruger 10/22 DSP "for self defence against small rodents" and the near-purchase of a Remington 870 Express Compact Tactical (nobody should live in the country without a pump gun) I concluded that my 12 gauge over/under plus a pocketful of #4 buckshot was all I needed to deal with a hypothetical hostile coyote pack.

Mostly they just sit out in the park and howl for a while at sundown, which is just fine with me. Hopefully they'll eat all the little animals that would otherwise obey centuries of genetic programming and move into my basement for the winter.

I went to the local Gander Mtn and spent some time playing with a Mini 14 the other day. It should probably be considered for standard issue for "critter defense".

Don't have any coyotes here, so take this FWIW.

What about something in .223 or .243? Ammo is usually easy to get, shoots flat, minimal recoil, lots of models and platforms to choose from especially if you go .223.

.223 if you are planning on keeping the pelts, .243 if you don't.

Carbine style if you are up close, bolt action if they are further out.

Oh, and shotgun for really close!

Yep. If I were hunting coyotes I would be looking at a .223, and a Mini 14 would be high on the list.

In my case I have no intention of hunting them, just making sure I have a plan for the day that they outgrow their food supply and decide to move further up the food chain. If they're not really close then everyone is happy.

How about recommendations for a good anti-aircraft gun?

Saturday morning I watched the bald eagle swoop down and take my neighbors new cat. It's a very small cat, although not a kitten, but the eagle lifted it like it was just another fish that I usually see him carrying. After the initial swoop I could see him struggling with the weight but it looks like he was going to make it to wherever his dining spot is.

He's watched our much bigger cat a few times but ours just stares back at him and says "bring it on!". Hopefully, he doesn't.

I would recommend the Phalanx Gun.

NICE. Except for blowing probably about $200 per second in ammo.

Up to 100 rounds PER SECOND!!


drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.........

We do live near the local Police shooting range. About once a year they are out there with automatic weapons - except for the sound of a 12 gauge pump ratcheting a shell into the chamber, there is nothing like the sound of a machine gun to get your attention.

They also fire a weapon from time to time that must be a 50 cal. sniper rifle. Very distinctive sound to say the least.

The Canadian Forces are using those .50 MacMillan sniper rifles in Afghanistan and have been successful over 1 1/2 miles. A friend sent me an email of some baddies getting pinged off from over a mile away, across a valley from one mountain to the other(Afghanistan). I think the shells on these rifles are a few inches long!

MacMillan Tac-50

We used to call them R2-D2 with a hard-. The rounds are made up of some very nasty stuff that I don’t think I can divulge. You did not touch them with bare hands without fearing what might happen to the boys downstairs…..

I took a buddy rifle shopping the other day. I have plenty of rifles and need another like I need another hole in my head. He didn't buy one, but I ended up buying one....go figure. I walked out with a Browning Titanium A-Bolt, chambered in the 325 WSM. I’ve never held a rifle that fit like this one and as light either. It can’t weight much over five pounds. I’m looking forward to shooting a few rounds through it in a couple days when the scope shows up.

Mike, nice little inexpensive item to pick up, eh? That certainly looks like something great to carry, but 5 1/2 lbs in 325 WSM? When you put those rounds through it, you might feel it a bit more than if you got it in say 7mm-08.

5lb rifle in a WSM? That's gotta give the old shoulder a nice punch! Heck, I don't think I'd do .270 Win in a 5lb gun. Sounds like a killer sheep gun though.

The first time I heard them, I thought they were mortars being fired. I wondered why the police would be using mortars Later I surmised it must be sniper rifles. Again I wondered why the local police would need a sniper rifle unless they were just playin around.

Your local police was probably just using bb-guns connected to a EP500!

From the Wiki.

Two Canadian snipers of the same Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI) regiment sniper team made the longest recorded sniper kills in history with this weapon in Afghanistan, during Operation Anaconda, in the Shah-i-Kot Valley. On a March afternoon in 2002, Master Corporal Arron Perry killed an enemy combatant from 2,310 meters (2,526 yd/1.435 miles) and Corporal Rob Furlong killed an enemy combatant from 2,430 meters (2,657 yd/1.509 miles) with 750 grain Hornady A-MAX very-low-drag bullets.[2][3] This is the longest-ever recorded kill by a sniper in combat, surpassing the mark of 2,286 meters (2,500 yd/1.420 miles) set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock during the Vietnam War.

Edit: Oops I see you had a link to this anyways. Oh well, I'll leave it here to save a click. The precise geometry to take an accurate shot at that distance and aim a hand controlled weapon to what must be the tiniest fractions of a millimeter is simply staggering. Add in calculations for wind that will undoubtedly change over the course of 1.5 miles and you have to wonder if there is some luck attached to that unprecedented skill.

I hunt with a Weatherby 340 now. I dread pulling the trigger on it even though I put a brake on it. Now, instead of just hurting me, it makes me deaf too. I can still remember when I first bought the thing. I mounted the scope and went to the range to sight it in. I fired a round and thought someone just hit me in the shoulder with a bat. I couldn’t believe it kicked that hard. I thought it must have been me not holding it right, so I racked another round in and lit it off. Damn thing not only kicked just as bad the second time, but now I was really feeling it. I threw the rifle in the truck, took it to my gun smith and had them put the Answer System on it (spring recoil pad and brake). The recoil is OK now (30:06 like), but now it’s horribly loud and painful to shoot without hearing protection. Ear plugs and hunting don’t mix well….

The WSM rounds were initially designed to provide magnum performance, but with reduced recoil. At least this is what I’ve been reading after I bought the thing. I’ve heard about them, but never really read up on them as I had no intention of buying another rifle. The 338 is probably the most used rifle in Alaska, but it drops too quick for me, which is why I shoot the 340. I’m hoping the 325 performs well so I can dump the 340. I’ll report back after I fire a few rounds through it. I’d hate to have to put a brake on this one…..

It has always seemed to me that your weapon kicks harder when you are practice shooting than when you are shooting at game? I turkey hunt - I did switch from the 3 1/2" magnum loads to 3" High Density loads as I dreaded practicing. The last turkey I shot did not show up where I expected, so I had to shift position when he walked behind a tree. What I was too excited to realize is that he but of the shotgun was now resting against my cheek. When I pulled the trigger, I didn't realize that the stock had "kicked" me in the face. I jumped up to run make sure the turkey was done for, staggered and almost fell on my face. Literally stunned, as it were. One of my more embarrasing moments.......

Oh most definitely. Between the adrenalin and excitement, you are both distracted and pumped up. Recoil is non-existent. I hate target shooting with hunting rifles. I use a very nice gun vise to sight them in, then any ‘target’ shooting I do is standing and shooting something that gives me a sense of satisfaction that I hit it, like an unopened can of Bud Light. The noise however is another thing. Even out in the boonies, when I fire a round through the 340, I am tone deaf for quite a while. That’s not a good think in Alaska because a round shot in many parts of the state is a dinner bell for brown and grizzly bears. Not hearing them comeing to find dinner is not a good thing.

I couldn’t help but chuckle at your story with getting whacked by the shotgun. I have a scar above my eye from a scope. Back in the day before I found out that everyone was lying to me about “how good sheep and goat meat tasted” I bought a custom ultra light mountain rifle. With scope it was about 6 pounds and chambered in a 30-378 Weatherby. I never did get used to this rifle. It just never felt right to me. Well anyway, I stalked a ram all day and finally got a shot off. I was so excited I just pulled up and fired without taking the time to position the rifle and got scope bit, bad. Sold the gun after that……. I don’t hunt sheep anymore either. I think the meat tastes like crap. I think everyone just says it’s good because they put so much effort and money into bagging it they don’t want to admit the truth.

michael_d,

My friend shoots a 325 WSM, but in a regular A-bolt, so the gun is a good 3lbs heavier with bi-pod. Pretty good kick on that one so I'd imagine you would want a decent hold on the 5.5 pounder. Sucker does hold a line good though. I'm a wuss when it comes to recoil, so .270 Win in a 7lb rifle is about all I'm good for. After 20 rounds or so I'm starting to think aobut the recoil a little, so I just pack up at that point.

Ding, Ding, Ding! What is depleted uranium Alex! What do I win?

depleted uranium bullet

Speaking of "Scope Bit" - when I was a rookie (at the ripe age of 38), my buddy that introduced me to Turkey Hunting invited me to his place. He has all manner of weapons - so we were shooting all kinds of firearms from pistols, derringers, rifles and semi autos. Towards the end of the day, he breaks out his .50 cal Black Powder with scope. He lets me pack it and offers no advice on shooting - I guess he wanted a good laugh. Any way, we had a target set up about 150 yds and he suggested that I steady myself on the well housing. I sorta squatted down and had no idea about gun positioning. I sighted in and squeezed it off. BOOM! the scope cut me "good" and the recoil rolled me onto my back. He was doubled over laughing. I did hit about 1 inch above center though.

Did it look something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD-KaUl_olo

I'll have to wait till I get home. Can't view You Tube here at work.

I wouldn't shoot that damn thing for anything.

Yeah, Rick; them .577s can kill at both ends.

I was surprised by how low my recoil threshold turned out to be. Most of my friends hunt with 30-06's but I always found the recoil was just high enough that I would flinch a bit after a few shots, so I went with a .308 and a heavier rifle (just over 10 pounds with scope) since I figured most of my shooting would be at targets anyways. Even then the recoil seemed a bit higher than I liked.

I tried 150 grain bullets while sighting in for this year's deer hunt, rather than the 165-180 grain I had previously been using, and that seemed to reduce the recoil just enough to reach some kind of personal comfort level. I guess there's a reason so many "dream rifles" are chambered for milder cartridges like 257 Roberts, since they give about the same level of recoil in a lighter rifle while still being pretty effective on most of the animals we are likely to hunt outside of Alaska.

Presumably finding time to get out and shoot more than once a year would help too

John, also consider these Remington loads , for example in .308 .

Thanks. It’s been snowing non stop the past few days (close to 40 inches yesterday), so I’ve been enjoying some time off from work plowing my yard, over and over again. I still haven’t gotten a chance to fire the new rifle. So when you say “pretty good kick”, please prime me and compare it to say an -06.

577 Nitro…… Good grief. Not sure why anyone would want to shoot one. I think I’d be scared for life and flinch shooting a 22 after getting clobbered by that thing.

John – I haven’t paid much attention to the recoil rounds. Do you know if they have the same muzzle velocity as ‘regular’ rounds? How is it they get their claimed recoil reduction? I had just assumed it was through less powder.

AFAIK the managed recoil rounds use a lighter bullet (125 gr) at roughly the same muzzle velocity as the 180 grain. The bullet seems to be different from the regular 125 CoreLokt PSP; Rem says it's designed to open reliably with lower impact velocity.

They refer to the 30-30 a few times but the bullet weight & velocity seem closer to 7.62x39 with a hunting bullet than to a typical 30-30 load.

A couple of sites mentioned a comment from Rem that their "special powder" contributes to the lower recoil, maybe a faster burn rate so that the bullet can accelerate just as quickly with less powder and a lower overall gas volume ?

JohnK, thanks for the reminder - I had seen the managed recoil loads before then promptly forgot about them.

Then again, I imagine some people would rather be seen buying frilly underwear in 2XL than buying "managed recoil" cartridges :

(make sure nobody is within earshot, talk to clerk) I'D LIKE TO BUY SOME (lean close, speak in lower voice) managed recoil (back to normal voice) CARTRIDGES FOR MY 308 WIN

Mike, there aren't any more miracles in firearm ballistics than there are in audio technology. Sure, if you look at the Remington tables(I linked just a few in .308), if the bullet weights are the same, the velocity is much lower. For significant recoil reduction there has to be lower velocity, lower bullet weight, or a combination of both. As John B. pointed out, they say that the bullets have been redesigned to expand well at the lower velocities. They also emphasize that they're for typical situations where shots are under 200 yards.

I guess if you were hunting in the "wide open spaces" you could use a modified double rifle that fired one .577 Nitro at the target and a second, simultaneously, in the opposite direction.

That’s what I thought. Too bad…….. I reckon they’re for folks with buyer’s remorse. Folks who buy an 06 who probably should have stuck with a 308. Doesn’t make much sense to me though. I buy a caliber for its ballistic characteristics and what I plan to do with it.

It isn’t just bullet weight and powder that effects recoil though. There are other factors that contribute to it. I have a little 280 Remington Winchester Featherweight that will wake you up real quick firing 150 grain rounds.

I finally got a chance to look at this and I LOL'd - literally. THAT is exactly what it was like. What are they shooting - a Rhino gun?

.577 Nitro Express.

michael_d,

Been awhile since I shot the 30-06 (180gr bullets IIRC), but would have to say that the 325 WSM has a snapier recoil AND has more push, if that makes any sense. The 06 would feel like a shove whereas the the 325 WSM was more like a hard slap. However, I am recoil sensitive, so .270 or .308 is about as much cartridge as I can handle out of a 7-8lb rifle.

My brother-in-law was up a couple of times this week; after the first time he found that his trailer tire had gone flat. He called me before coming up the second time and asked me to look around in the driveway and yard to see if there was something sharp sticking up.

It had just gotten dark, so I grabbed a flashlight and searched around in front of the house. Nothing there, so started walking up the driveway towards the road. Didn't see anything sharp there either, but I did notice a lot of fresh saucer-sized canine footprints (canine footprints the size of a saucer, not footprints from a saucer-sized canine). After a rapid "tactical withdrawal" back to the house I followed the footprints around and concluded that a couple of animals with wolf-sized feet were hunting rodents in my woodpile.

I still had a couple of hundred feet of driveway to check, but the footprints were *really* fresh (it had been snowing all day) so some kind of moral support was required. I headed down to the gun room to pick up said moral support and found that the battery had died in the door lock. No problem, it's a standard LaGard electronic lock, just flip open the battery cover under the keypad and...

... no battery cover. Crap. Fire up the computer and start downloading pdfs until I find one that seems to match my keypad. OK, keypad slides up... check... battery is in the back... check... replace battery... check... enter combination... door opens. Woot !! Shotgun... buckshot... flashlight... spare flashlight... out we go. No sharp things sticking up from the ground, just coyotes and the occasional wolf howling in the distance.

The shotgun turned out to be handy anyways. We were unloading furniture from the trailer and Rob's dog was driving us crazy trying to get us to throw a stick for him. One round of buckshot took care of that problem...

Rob walked around with the shotgun for a minute, tracked an imaginary bird in the air, pulled the trigger, and the dog ran off looking for the bird for the next 10 minutes while we finished unloading the trailer.

That's how it read AFTER you edited the post? That second sentence couldn't come soon enough!

...dog comes back ten minutes later with imaginary duck, drops it at Rob's feet....AAaaarruuhHH?

That particular dog has been known to snatch birds out of the air before Rob has a chance to shoot them, so none of us would have been particularly surprised if he had come back with a real bird.

Sorry about the cliffhanger there, Mark; if it's not already clear from my other posts, dogs are regarded very highly in our families, and often get first dibs on the good seats. Some years ago we built a "pecking order" list for the family and I was extremely pleased that only one dog appeared ahead of me on the list.

My household contains one wife, one husband and one dog, the good news is that I too only have one dog ahead of me in the pecking order of my family ... one cat also.

Yeah, I knew that John, but in my half-delirious state it threw me for a moment!

That was the primary reason for editing. I felt the original post lacked excitement