...for their HT speakers that is. They are a great value proposition and the service couldn't be better. Anyone who reads the forums for awhile can't miss that there are many satisfied customers.

I would not recommend Axiom for their subwoofers though. They seem overpriced and perhaps new models ship before they are fully tested. Again you just have to read the boards to confirm that. It seems to me their reputation and P&L might have been better off to stay out of the subwoofer market altogether. It's just an opinion and that's why I posted in the water cooler.

What do you think?

Bill

Kill him!!!



Nah, you certainly shouldn't recommend anything that you don't have confidence in. To be sure, the EP800 amp issue was a doozie, but Axiom has done right by their affected customers. The ones who are forum regulars have posted so.

Also, many forum members agree with you that the subwoofers are on the expensive side, and have voted with their wallets by buying other brands. You'll often see SVS and Hsu recommended as alternatives (although perhaps not as much as in the past).

I don't agree that they should not have entered and/or should leave the subwoofer market altogether. Subwoofers are speakers -- which Axiom excels at making -- and amps -- which Axiom has proven to be more than competent at making -- all in one box. Seems like a natural marriage, to me.

While the troubles I've encountered with Axiom's subwoofers makes me think they are priced a little above where they should be, I agree with Peter that they should certainly still be in the game. I think they do have something unique to offer in their DSP subs, and I look forward to continued refinement of their ideas. On the other hand, that could get expensive. Maybe they should stop with the EP800.

Even though I am an SVS sub owner I still recommend Axiom subwoofers, the ones I have heard and know they work well. For some cost is not an issue or they want all their speakers to match aesthetically, for this reason alone Axiom needs to be in the sub market to ensure sales to certain individuals.

I really enjoy the way Axiom's subwoofers sound, but for me the extra cost was the main reason I went elsewhere.

I have had my EP500 for five years now, never had an issue with it. It actually works a little too good. I would love to get a 2nd one, but it fills my 16' x 24' x 9' dedicated HT room with so much clean, tight, musical bass, my wife won't let me, she doesn't see a need, and frankly, I am not necessarly conviced it would make that much difference either. I have never regretted any Axiom purchase, but the EP500 is always a topic of conversation when I have friends over.

I can't imagine what a 600, 800 or even multpiles of these sub woofers would be like in my room. But I guess everything is relative.

paul

I've wrote many times about how I feel about Axiom subs, I would look elsewhere, and did, for another brand.

As for their speakers, I think they are a heck of a deal for the money.

I suspect there as a large part of the buying public that picks up the whole system from on vendor.

Its not always about absolute performance. If it were, everyone would be building their own sub.

I agree Fred. I think my next sub would be a DIY.

If someone is new to audio or is just looking for audio companies I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Axiom. They are a competently run organization employed by some fine people and have some great products to boot. I do agree that the subwoofers are priced high and I have even mentioned this in the Axiom customer survey. I believe there are ways to remedy this without slashing the MSRP. I have recommended to them different pricing structures for multiple subwoofers and allowing savings to be passed onto the consumer in these instances. The more subwoofers purchased the greater the savings. With all the acoustic research that is out there on the benefits of multiple subwoofers, it is not only great business to encourage customers to buy multiple subwoofers but it also based on the notion of providing the maximum/best performance as well. The company benefits and so does the consumer.

My 2 cents.

I've owned 5 different Axiom subs since the beginning, and have never had a problem. Well, I did have to replace one amp, but that was due to shipping damage, hardly Axioms fault. They have all performed great and I don't find them expensive in comparison and the finish matches my other Axiom speakers.

In regards to the EP series, I don't see other manufacturers offering the same technology using DSP controlled chips with the same power.

Axiom has had a little problem with some of the amps, but with the introduction of Andrew Welker the new design engineer who came from API, they have already addressed this issue.

Bill, to be fair, if you follow other forums, all subwoofer manufacturers have issues with their subs, including SVS, HSU, ED, etc.

350v2, 2 350v3's, EP500v1, EP500v2, EP600v2

C'mon guys....Axiom speakers as we all know, in addition to great sound, are well known as a good value.
I don't think they sat around and said: "subwoofers...let's make them really expensive, and unlike the rest of our products". They cost, what they cost to produce, and sell, due to the same economic realities they face with all the other products.
IF, they are guilty of anything.........it could be said, there may have been a "rush to market" with the new series.

Larry (fanboy)

Now, THAT'S funny! (without being snarky, too)

A Axiom DSP controlled subwoofer does not necessarily equal greater performance over a non DSP competitor sub. Though I imagine the DSP section/technology adds significantly to the cost to produce. There are many ways to design a subwoofer and there are plenty of non DSP subwoofers that perform extremely well and at a lower cost.

Paradigm does, the DSP series and they are considerably cheaper. The 3200 can be bought for nearly half the price of the 500 or the 3400 for $300-400 less than the 500. I think that is the only real competition. I have not seen any other manufacturers using DSP, but do they need to? The EP350 works incredibly well, doesn't use DSP and is priced right in comparison to the competitors.

Maybe Axiom needs to bring out non-DSP versions of the 600/800 for those that want to experience the upper end of Axiom subs without the higher costs associated with their DSP technology.

OK, I hesitate to wade into this thread, but a couple of things.
1. It seems somewhat impolite to post this on Axiom's own forum. That may not be the case, but that's how I feel.
2. How's the fit and finish on these other subs? I'm sure in several cases it's quite good, but I imagine that plays into it.
3. Where are the other subs manufactured? While Axiom does own and operate a factory in China, I believe that what is manufactured there is the smaller drivers for the regular line. Amps are hand built in Canada, the cabinets are assembled in Canada, and I believe the 12" drivers are also built in Canada. You're going to pay for that--that's just the way it is. Don't like Chinese manufacturing? Don't complain when stuff built in Canada or the US costs more.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I haven't heard most of the other subs. I've heard a couple of SVSes, and they were quite good. I own an EP350v3, which I got on eBay from Axiom for less than retail, so I understand the cost sensitivity.

The Axiom subs are higher priced as compared to their competitors. You cannot argue that point. As far as impoliteness goes, this is a forum... I expect everyone to speak their mind. I also think that Axiom would want to hear candid opinions to make their products even better.

To be quite honest, to me anyway, I don't really care where they are built as long as I get a quality product for a fair price. I paid a premium for the EP800s and I know it. I did it because I like the way the company operates, I love their products and more importantly their support, and I will pay more for a speaker that I know I will get support from.

To be quite frank, I feel that there is better bang for the buck out there as far as subs go (SVS and HSU are perfect examples). I chose to stay with the company that I respect, and maybe help support them in their endeavors to make a truly world class sub. Also, in my case for sure, Axiom lost a good deal of money in shipping charges alone to make my EP800s right. And if they do fail in the future (which is entirely possible), I know they will be there to make things right.

I have heard other subs, and they are just as good as Axioms... Some even better (though VERY few compete with the EP800). I'm hoping that will change (and I'm helping to support the change).

Well, I guess I should have used the word I was going to use initially: impolitic. I'll concede your point about people speaking their minds.

I don't see this thread as bashing their subs or being impolite to the company. I feel it is the opposite, in fact quite a compliment to the company that their customers actually care to give constructive criticism. There have been some excellent suggestions in this thread already. This type of feedback is a great way for companies to be able to understand their customer base, their needs and possibly use such information as indicators to develop new product/service for the future and more importantly the ability to provide it at the correct time to meet the needs. This type of thinking and approach is vital to growth and stability and imo very valuable.

I agree with Ken's original post.

In the interest of full disclosure, when I was in the market for a $600 sub 6 years ago, I ended up with an SVS. A major factor in my decision was that I wanted a down-firing form factor. Since then, I have heard Axiom subs and been very favorably impressed.

Here's my problem - I have no idea how many subs Axiom sells. We - as forum-dwellers - only see their business through the lens of what is posted here, not through production and accounting. So, I really have no idea what percentage of defects we're talking about here. And I will add the old adage that it's not what happens to you, it's how you respond that matters.

In addition, we all know that once something is posted on the internet, it never goes away and it takes reasonable scrutiny to ascertain the credibility of each individual message. The concept of free, broad-based publishing implies new responsibilities for both author and reader relative to our freedoms. Bill, have you heard Axiom subwoofers? The more often something is repeated, the closer it gets to Internet Truth regardless of its origin.

Finally, from a Cosmic perspective, I'm trying to do good. I absolutely want to hear about positive experiences regardless of manufacturer. If we're having asset-based (rather than deficit-based) conversations, people can more easily draw their own conclusions. I want Axiom to do well because I enjoy and appreciate their products, their people and their business model. I don't see how perpetuating the "Axiom subs are not a good value" opinion on the Axiom board does anyone "good".

+1 Tom and Ken!

Actually Dr. a DSP sub can give you better performance as it won't distort at 120-125dB's like non-DSP subs, to me that is worth the small increase in price. Not to mention the controlled frequency response provided by the algorithms in the chip.

Sirquack you missed my point entirely. I am talking about comparing a DSP sub vs a non DSP from different manufacturer.

Of course if take out the DSP on the Axiom sub it will decrease its performance. Some subs will benefit with this technology more than others. There are benefits to DSP but it doesn't mean a non DSP sub will be inferior (comparing models in similar price ranges of course)

If you feel the DSP is in fact worth the extra money why did you go with non DSP subs on you last purchase. Just wondering.

Axiom's subs never even get close to 120db let alone 125(maybe the 800 does, I haven't seen anything yet).

The idea with DSP is not only for high db's, you get smoother response over the entire frequency range but so do many other manufacturers that are not using DSP, which was my point in asking if DSP was really necessary.

It really depends on the driver being used and its measured characteristics/performance and the overall performance the engineer wants to achieve with the design and parts being used.

To say there are "similarly good" subs compared to Axiom subwoofers that are cheaper or in some cases substantially cheaper is a factual statement. Its not bashing or perpetuating Axiom subs are not good value.

Got my first EP 500 (in veneer) in Nov. It died two weeks later. The only problem was living w/o it 'til the replacement amp came.
Axiom was tres cool about it. Even sheduled phone time @ my convenience to talk me through the dismantle (though I had already completed it myself w/o problem).

Odd that the replacement shipped to me was the previous version. (Turnaround was very quick ---their dime(s)). But, since the trim and other controls hadn't been on my newer version, AND those controls eliminated the room resonances I had thought were possibly a slow recovery time on the woofer, I was happier than before.

They even sent me a free QS8 replacement driver that I said I may have damaged myself during the install.

It's not my first sub, but until I have the money for a 6500 sq.' house and a JLA Fathom f212, I'll be quite content.

I believe as a whole system, inclusive of the sub, Axiom cannot be beat for the price, quality and service ... I'd do it again in a millisecond.

I'm very happy with our EP600, thank you very much.

Rick: Without thinking any more about it---me, too!

Living in Alaska, they are a better "bargain" than the others. I have been quoted upwards of $500 to ship a sub to me from HSU and SVS of similar size and weight of the 600. I keep waiting for Axiom to dump the free shipping here, but they haven't yet, so I'll keep buying stuff from them till they do.... Looking forward to adding the two Vassalo 500's to my HT and seeing how well they play with the 600 this week.

The EP500 goes lower than the Paradigm's. The EP500 also has more power. Those differences may not be worth the delta in price to everyone, but I mention it because you need to compare apples to apples when talking about price.

For Canadians, the EP600 and EP800 are not that far off in price when compared to SVS:

EP600 landed cost $1957
SVS PC Ultra 13 landed cost $2089
EP800 landed cost $2542

The EP600 and PC13 are comparable, the EP800 is an upgrade over either one.

Nothing in life is free. "Free shipping" is having the cost of shipping/handling/insurance and other overhead (packaging materials) incorporated into the MSRP instead of having substantial charges added on afterwards. I agree with policies such as this because it shows that the manufacturer is upfront and honest about its pricing/prices and not trying to backdoor any inflated charges onto the consumer. I would hope they would never change that policy.

Great points made on the shipping costs folks.

The 500 plays to 18 and the DSP 3200 plays to 22 going by the specs, I would be willing to bet many would take the DSP price over the EP500 and give up the few hz difference or you go for the 3400 which hit 19 and still costs less. This is why many say Axiom is over priced. SO far as power goes, like you said earlier it depends on the design, wattage specs doesn't mean alot.

Said it before, I'll say it again. The Axiom subs are built in North America. Paradigms are built in China. Your choice.


Err, that came off a little rough. I'm just saying that one pays a premium for a product manufactured here--there's no way around it.

My DSP3400 says "Made in Canada" on the serial decal. I know "made in" can mean different things where manufacturing is concerned, as components may be made somewhere else but assembled in North America for instance. I don't really know where Paradigm's drivers and amps are made, but I'd hazard a guess that it may be their cabinets that are actually made in China, like many other speaker companies have done, but their drivers/amps are made in house. This may have changed over the years of course, to keep costs down, but I don't know for sure.

From what I've heard (from sources that may or may not be rather biased, truthfully), final assembly is in Canada, but the rest is China.

While I agree with you that you pay a premium for North American made products I would guess Axiom sources the components for the electronic section from China or elsewhere and are assembled in house. The subwoofer drivers are definitely made in Canada. The website shows the steps in assembling a Axiom subwoofer driver. I am sure Axiom has specialized in cost effective production and equipment into cabinetry and have increasing economies of scale for the standard vinyl finishes. I can understand having to pay a premium for non-vinyl finishes because of the extensive and specialized labour that is required.

Where Axiom really benefits in my opinon with North American manufacturing and assembly is quality control - quality control initiatives and more control over how it is implemented.

Are you sure? When I did my Axiom visit two years ago, Debbie was just on her way to China to do training in electronics assembly. I am fairly certain that was for amps.

From what I can tell, subs are the most competitive part of the market. There has been a lot of technical innovation in the last 5-7 years and there are lots of good, competitively priced sube out there. It is what it is...

Axiom has two factories. One in Canada and one in Shanghai China. It should be noted that they actually own the factory in China, which is quite unusual and was a feat that took Ian a great amount of time and effort to accomplish. They make all the components at their factories, right down to the wire connectors. During our last customer counsel meeting, we discussed this and it was noted that Axiom does not advertise this fact and they should consider doing something in the future to explain it in more detail; as this thread shows, - people care about the subject.

Without going into a very long winded philosophical discussion regarding the concept of “quality”, in which my views mirror’s Robert Pirsig’s, quality of goods manufactured is most greatly influenced by the management and oversight of the facility and personnel performing the work. Just because a product is manufactured in China, does not necessarily mean that the product is, well…junk. Junk is manufactured right here in good ol’ North America too. Because Axiom does own the factory in China, they have control over the facility proper, including the environmental conditions, cleanliness, machining, etc. Ian spends a great deal of time at this factory as well. China’s boom in manufacturing the past decade has outpaced its ability to establish or adopt a globally recognize quality standard, such as ISO 9000. They will eventually and the price of goods will rise with it. But…that does not mean that you can’t buy a product made in China that does not have a very high level of quality. You just need to do your homework.

Excellent post michael_d.

Thanks Mike, that was very informative.

I appreciate hearing the body of responses. There are a lot of interesting points made.
1. Total product cost including shipping is more competitive in Alaska and Canada than in the continental USA.
2. Some customers do want all their speakers to have one brand. Some customers don't care.
3. Some loyal Axiom customers are willing to pay a premium and endure multiple product replacements because they have confidence that Axiom will be there to make things right.

Just to clarify it's pretty much the DSP subs where I've followed threads that indicate Axiom shipped product early. SRoode made the point Axiom lost a great deal of money in shipping charges alone to make his EP800s right.

I really do appreciate the Axiom speaker line and the amazing customer service. When I decide to upgrade or add HT speakers Axiom will be my preferred chioce.

The EP600 was on my short list when choosing a new sub 9 months ago. It didn't make my final cut but might have if:
1. it had been a bit less expensive and
2. if I weren't lurking and reading threads about Axiom sub DSP issues at that time.

Axiom has an internet based direct selling approach which seems to be very successful for their line of speakers. I hope they achieve a similar level of success with their subwoofer line.

Bill

Nobody here has suggested that. I was aware (and impressed) that Axiom owned its facility in China before I bought my system. I was also aware that Axiom designed its own drivers rather than OEMing them from someone else.

I remember when people had this same sort of conversation about goods manufactured in Taiwan. I still own a no-name table saw who's fit and finish is every bit as good as the 'North American' brands sold for twice the price at the time. Ian clearly figured out the value of manufacturing in China some time ago, and has taken the important step of maintaining control of the process.

In the end it is about a quality product for the right price. There seems to be a lot more competition in the subwoofer market all the way from DIY to manufactured to OEMed (Outlaw) than there is in the speaker market.

AV123's MFW 15 is an example of what happens in this type of market. The MFW15 is a good design missing the type of quality control Axiom works very hard to maintain. It was damn near a killer product... with absolutely no margins. Margins for some of the best DIY drivers out there are also very thin. Kevin Haskins of Exodos has written as much on one of the forums.

After all that rambling, I had a hard time deciding on a sub, but ended up going for the EP350. It may not be the same 'steal of a deal' that the M80s are, but its still a very competent sub. I got my money's worth.

Yep.

Consider buying one on the used market at Audiogon or Canuck Audio Mart.
The prices on used speakers are considerably less (often 30-40% less than new cost) and Axiom has honoured the warranty in the past if a fault of the unit was due to a flaw in the making or design (e.g EP800 amp).

I think it's all about the HT aspect of a system. If there are instances when all of the drivers are firing simualtaneously, I'd rather that they were designed as a "set." They were built to function together, tested that way and with a somewhat compromised (reconciliated?) goal to begin with (HT and Music reproduction).

I've sub'ed my old Snells for my M60's. They just don't do as well when used for HT. That thinking is what made me buy the ep500. If I had the space I'd have a nice $6k pr. right next to my 60's with their own monoblocks and pre-amp. That'd also render the sub less important (for music), 'cause $6k speakers shouldn't be asking for that much bottom.

Even some great mfr.'s out there really only take their well-established and well-received towers and throw in a couple of under R & D'd "surrounds" and a "front." Now you're shelling $10k and up for something that was never really designed as a suround system. Great music---HT, ah, not so much.

Researched, shopped online and real time for 6 months. Lucky enough to have 2 audio high-enders within 25 miles.

If you're not committed to spending twice as much or more, the differences are likely to not be significant enough to justify the added costs.

Enjoyed reading through this thread.

I am definitely happy with my ep500 and really want to trade up my ep500 for an ep800 at some point.

I think it would be very strange if axiom sold speakers but not subwoofers...

I bought my EP500 over the competition for a few reasons.

First, Axiom offered a 5 year warranty SVS was 3 years and HSU 7 on the sub and only 2 on the electronics. Since I didn’t know if I would ever end up with a real job (I was on temp orders) I wanted as much purchase protection as possible.

Second, I was sick of speaker shopping after 3 months and if I had to do a return because I didn’t like the Axioms I only wanted to deal with one company.

Third, when I first posted here about making an Axiom purchase several people recommended SVS and HSU might get me “more bang for my buck.” Not only did Axiom let those statements stand but no fanboys shouted them down. So partly out of respect for allowing dissenting opinion (something many other companies squash) I figured what the hell.

Now that the first issue, warranty, is no longer salient I would consider all options if getting another sub.

However, for the price I would be more inclined to go with 2 EP500s/PB12-Plus/ULS-15 or something comparable rather than 1 EP800 as I believe I would benefit more from multiple subs than one more powerful one.

Since the EP800 would, in room, give me 125dB while two EP500s should give me 123dB (Is +3dB a fair estimate for adding a second sub?).

Anechoic (+/-1.5) the EP800 goes down to 13Hz to the EP500 18Hz. (people really finding much below 20Hz?) besides for $400 my Butticker goes down to 5Hz with 1000w beating the crap out of both of them w/o making the rest of the bass to strong. Ask Sean if it worked well for the rumbly scenes.

2xEP500s will help even out my bass 1xEP800 won’t. How about 4xEP500s vs 2 EP800s. I guess if price were no object 4xEP800 would be nice but I think that extra 5K-7k would rather be an even better projector.

Obviously everyone has there own preferences I try to prioritize mine toward what gives me the most utility value.

Also hardly recommend speaker brands to anyone anymore unless they have a very specific need. It’s just not worth the effort. However, if someone asks about them I highly recommend Axiom.

Can you even hear 13 Hz or does it simply induce vomiting and confusion?

Don’t know. They warn against it at work but even doing extended power runs on the engines 4+ hours has never caused me any problems while running ground. The ground shakes which is exactly what the Buttkicker feels like, but I have no way of know what frequencies it’s getting other than below 40Hz where the filter is set.

I am not aware of any material at the top of my head that hits down to 13hz in the subsonic region, though I'm sure there is stuff out there. You won't be able to hear it, just feel it.

Go over to avsforum and post that on the DIY Speakers and Subs forum. I dare you...

What will happen? "eek"

For reference, cross an AV123 fanboy with an Emo fanboy and you still don’t come close to the fanboyism of some of those DIYers. I mean you think the cognitive dissonance in a speaker purchase is bad now you’re talking about people who are making their own, and they are better at it than any of the “pro” manufactures out there in their not so humble opinions.

Some of the DIYers are really annoying, however I don't follow the DIY crowd all that much. Oh well. Nothing beats a good ol` 123 fanboy/apologist atleast in my experiences. The 123 fanboy is verging on extinction, so the DIYers or EMO can proudly take their crown.

Right, Dean; two widely separated(for room mode cancellation/minimization)subs provide a 3dB increase. Two very closely situated(within about 1/4 wavelength)subs for simply increased output level because of increased mutual support can provide about a 6dB increase.

Thanks for confirming that John. I was pretty sure I’d read about the 3dB part but must have forgotten about the 6dB if place together. Good to know that, not that more subs are very high on my priority list right now.

More subs shouldn't be high on my list, either, but if I can get by without having to ship so many subs back, all the better.

I'm kind of glad somebody brought up the DIY subwoofer community.

The tools, measurements and theory behind subwoofers have not only advanced, but also become readily available over the last 10-15 years. While on most days I am still smart enough to grasp my own limitations, I don't think it is ridiculous to assert that DIY'ers can construct subwoofers of professional quality. Available computer models are remarkably accurate, and - most importantly - the designer is only dealing with one driver and a very narrow, predictable, imprecise frequency response.

Subwoofers don't have to deal with baffle correction, crossovers, or - to a great extent - distortion.

I think this is a good reason why value-added technologies like Axiom's DSP are significant.

My contention is that subwoofer design is almost pure science (leading to commoditization and narrow margins), whereas loudspeaker design still requires quite a bit more art.

This thread has been on topic for a long time. Tagging on to Dean's comments, I went to the NHRA "4 Wide" top fuel drag races last Saturday in Charlotte. I had never been to a drag race before - and of course, they start with the lesser horsepower stuff first. I was not prepared for the Top Fuel boys & women when they came out. Each "car" "rocket" puts out 8,000 hp. At 4 wide the effect was nothing short of incredible. I am sure that there was some "stuff" in the 13 hz and below range here. To further heighten the effect, we stood at the start line - you could actually get quite close - when the light went green, the result was nothing short of indescribable. I am sure that either my eyeballs or my optic nerve vibrated as the entire scene sort of pixelated. I did not puke, BTW but I did utter a few expletives.

8000 HP?! I had no idea they were that crazy.

I thought it might be fun to watch on TV, but drag racing is intensely boring if you're not there.

They kept hyping the "4wide" as history being made. I have heard positive and negative comments about getting away from the standard 2 wide.

It is the first time I have been. It is not something that I would typically go to - by Brother-in-law got the tickets for my Christmas present. I actually had a good time.

John Force won and his daughter Ashley came in second. For all you "eye candy" guys who have heard about Danica, go to Google Images and search on Ashley Force........

How do they divide up the lanes in 4-wide?

They used to hover right about 6000HP and were limited to 500 CID when I was in the game a decade or so ago. It wouldn’t surprise me if they’ve been able to squeeze out another 25%. I never did build anything that would burn nitro, but did build a few pro-mods in the 700 CID / 2000HP range that ran on alcohol. Drive a sub 10 second car down the track once and you’ll forever be hooked on drag racing. Nothing quite like it and you’ll never appreciate just how much skill / talent it takes to keep that dam thing straight until you do. My first attempt was on a country road out in the middle of Texas. I immediately launched the car off the road, through a fence, over an arigation ditch and about half way through a field of ready to harvest alfalfa. Wasn’t any graceful way of sneaking away from that one……

I use to go to the drag races when the top fuel cars were in town when I was a teenager. I can smell the rubber and nitro when I think back on it. I remember that it is hard to watch anything slower than Pro Stock once you have seen the top fuel cars.

Oh, I'm sure it's a blast to drive (lesser to be there, but still!), but watching it on TV doesn't do it for me.

I worked with a fellow who tried oval track racing and said it was a lot of fun, too, but watching that type of racing is for curing insomnia, imho

Oh, I like oval racing, at least when it comes to Indycars. Well, as long as there's overtaking.

Left turn, left turn, left turn, caution, caution, caution, left turn, left turn......

Three left turns do make a right!

There were 2 lanes together then a concrete wall divider and lanes 3 & 4 together.

The Pro Stock guys seemed to be a bit more "driving" the car. The top fuel guys - it seemed like "hit the switch and hang on". The 1/4 mile times were in the 3.98 second range.

We got home in time to watch it on ESPN. TV doesn't come close to doing it justice......

I had gone to a dragstrip a couple of times years ago, and there is no way it can be captured on camera.

I mostly remember jet cars. Though the nitro ones had lower times, the jet cars would "blip" their throttles to edge up to the line and you would just feel it in your chest.

I put together a video many years ago with a Satriani soundtrack, but I couldn't mix everything louder than everything else as I wanted to!

I've never been to an F1 race before($200-500 per tick!!) but I've heard the same thing. People have no idea how loud and fast these cars can go, either in a straight line or round a corner until you see them live according to a former coworker of mine who used to travel all over the world to watch the races.

100% Threadjack.

99%....I always like to leave a little room for improvement

Hey, to rerail here....racing does SOUND better with some Axioms!!

The fuel cars aren't racing the 1000' track anymore?

I saw one of the four-wide drag races on TV a while back, too much happening too quick ... it was neat but I'd prefer the traditional two lane races if I were at the track watching. How neat would it be to get some db readings whenever a fuel car went by you, those freaking things are LOUD!

How 'bout them offshore boats, Rick. They're pretty loud too!!

Not *that* loud Adrian ... actually some of the turbine boats are relatively quiet, a 'cool' kind of quiet.

We are talking about offshore racing boats, right?

Yes. Maybe the sound carries a lot more on the water though. Sometimes on Lake Ontario you can hear them, but it's hard to see them as they're so far out.

I think a lot of it does have to do with the sound carrying so far on the water, we used to watch them on a small lake in central Florida and would actually take our boat within a couple of hundred yards of a straightaway and they didn't seem too terribly loud but yet whenever they are way out offshore you can hear them very well, just like you are saying.

I'm sure one of the smart guys will be along soon to give us the proper explanation.