Seriously?

I mean, I don't want to go on a rant here or anything, but if this is true, it's PC run amok.

Censoring art, especially music, is just not cool, man.

I guess old reruns of All in the Family will never be seen either. Oh the times they are a changin.

Gotta say, I wince every time I hear that line (and I always have), but I love the song, and I love Mark Knopfler.

"Canada has broad human-rights policies".

HA! Yeah, equal opportunity exists; give me a break.

Anyway, here's an article from the Toronto Sun -Gay celebs weigh in on censor .

I will say that the thought that the word nigger (used by a black person) is somehow analogous with the word faggot (used by a heterosexual person), is wrong. The former was the intended target of the word they're using, but the latter is someone of a different sexual orientation.

That aside, I do think it's unfortunate that words hurt people (there's an ideal that needs to be abolished). But, I do think it's important to not use words that could possibly offend someone, if only one person; it's just humane.

On censoring the song, the movie is blatantly wrong, and censorship sucks! Enough said!

So let's get rid of the word "faggot", we'll say "homo" instead. Once "homo" get's used too much we'll ban that and use another word or phrase ect....the *context of what is said, is far more important than the words themselves.

Banning songs because of the use of the word faggot is so gay. Tipper Gore is laughing somewhere right now.

Just another example of to much government in people lives. Soon to happen here given they way things have been the past couple decades.

Yep. Although, the limitations of state power rest in the hands of it's populace.

When the majority are sheep...........

I always have, too, Ken.

But I don't deny that I used the word when I was a kid, and every other kid I know did also.

Regarding the song, I hear it being said in this context of the lyrics: "I'm acting like a child because you're getting everything handed to you and it's all coming easy for you, so I'm jealous and angry".

In other words, I hear it like Knopfler is a character and didn't write the lyrics first-person.

Archie Bunker said things that also made me wince, but I don't hold Carrol O'Connor responsible, because he's playing a character who, by using such rhetoric, forces us to confront issues.

Anyway, because of that, the lyric doesn't bother me in the same way it would as if said with venom.

I agree with you, Mark, it's definitely an in character song.

Perhaps the sensible alternative would be bleeping or otherwise obscuring it for radio play. And yes, I do see that word as equivalent to the n-word, and I would be shocked (and appalled) if I heard that on the radio in a song by a white person.

And yes, I ran around as a kid quoting the line from Blazing Saddles "A laurel, and hardy handshake for our new town... " as a kid until my mother mentioned that it just might not be the best thing to say.

You always have to look at the silver lining....maybe they'll get rid of 90% of the (k)rap music out there 'cause they like using the "n" word, lol.

There's a silver lining to rap music being around, too. It gives you a punching bag.

Most of the OTA radio stations down our way have always left the verse out of that song whenever they play it. 'What's It Like' by Everlast can really be humorous whenever the radio stations edit what they deem to be the bad words sometimes, especially whenever they replace the words with coo-coo clock or whistle like sounds.

To completely ban a song without any editing is ridiculous.

Speaking of that, I aleways found Sandler's "piece of £€{> car" to be a lot funnier in the radio edit.

Lol...good one, Charles!

Speaking of censoring....when Alanis Morrisette was popular, they used to bleep "chicken shit" out of her song yet other songs like PJ's "Jeremy" they played "harmless little f*ck" without a second thought(here, anyway).

Hey Adrian,

Couldn't agree more. The definition of the word "music" or "song" suggests actually singing, and that "music" contain a melody.

Rap isn't singing; it's chanting, and it isn't music 'cause there's no melody.

I was just discussing the "Money for Nothing" ban with an old friend in London, Ontario, this morning. He did point out that on the phone-in talk show he heard on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Canada's state-supported radio/TV broadcast network), all the usual racial slurs were used by a caller and not bleeped, which is to the credit of broadcasting in Canada. Even the f-word goes unbleeped in Canada. The caller, who was African-Canadian said his mother told him, "They're just words; get used to it."

It's a complex issue. I used to maintain that "All in the Family" reinforced entrenched prejudices in people who viewed it and there is considerable scientific evidence to back that up. I never bought the argument of Norman Lear, who created the show, that it forces viewers to confront these issues. When my son was little, I didn't like him watching it because I thought why expose him to all this ugliness? He'll find out soon enough. .

Regards,
Alan

Oh, they bleep Jeremy here. I think there's an AIC song where they don't bleep shit--or didn't use to.

Hell, NIN's Closer is played on the radio here--bleeped.

Ken, my friend; I wholeheartedly agree, and that's exactly what I was getting at when I said-



If a white person uses the n-word in music, or whenever, I'm shocked, appalled and disgusted, as I believe it's wrong (freedom of speech prevails though). But, if a black person wanted to use the word, it's perfectly acceptable, although I do find it deleterious.

Basically, what I was getting at, is if a homosexual wants to use the word faggot, or a black person wants to use the n-word, it's fine. But, if a heterosexual person, or a white person wanted to do the same, it's appalling because the derogatory term wasn't originally intended for them, and in these examples, it was created by them.

I hope I'm making some sense .

Now you are!

I'd be happy if they implemented one long bleep for Justin Bieber's et al. songs. Oh, wait, that's censorship too . HMMM, how to get rid of that little puke's ear poison?

The little puke, he's a millionaire, I think it works we just need Mark to resing it this way.

Oh. Now I get it! You little 'tards wait 'til I'm away to talk "faggot" crap. I'm tellin' Craig, too!

Several states are considering re-editing Twain's Huck Finn, et al, to take out the 200+ instances of the "n" word. Time and place, folks, time and place. A marker of historic time and place.

Hey, let's hold Rubens accountable for sexism, and our forefathers for thinking slavery was OK. And let's hold Freud accountable for getting so much of it wrong.

And, All in the Family is being pulled from (ancient) syndication in many American markets because of the racial and ethnic slurs being currently un-p.c.

As for the word "faggot," I prefer, gifted, artistic, sensitive or "you no good filthy co_ _su_ _er."

Depends on what I'm doing when they say it. (insert smiley face)

I respectfully disagree. I believe there are social/cultural circumstances which should be considered. There's all kinds of music from all over the world (some of which isn't commonly known and possibly never heard because it's tribal music etc.) that quite possibly wouldn't fit into that category.

I know nothing of the subject, but I briefly scanned over an article on Wikipedia regarding the definition of music , and it states that-

"How to define music has long been the subject of debate; philosophers, musicians, and, more recently, various social and natural scientists have argued about what constitutes music. The definition has varied through history, in different regions, and within societies. Definitions vary as music, like art, is a subjectively perceived phenomenon. Its definition has been tackled by philosophers of art, lexicographers, composers, music critics, musicians, semioticians or semiologists, linguists, sociologists, and neurologists. Music may be defined according to various criteria including organization, pleasantness, intent, social construction, perceptual processes and engagement, universal aspects or family resemblances, and through contrast or negative definition."

In the article, there are many purported definitions, and I would adhere to the Social Construct definition -

"Post-modern and other theories argue that, like all art, music is defined primarily by social context. According to this view, music is what people call music, whether it is a period of silence, found sounds, or performance."

Again, I have nowhere near the experience that you have, Alan (it's literally limited to a quick read of said article), but it's just my 2¢.

Rap may not be singing, but it is music. I don't like it, you don't like it, but you can't deny that some people DO like it. It's like saying romance novels aren't books.

Music ain't music just because someone calls it that and neither does art become art for the same reason, imo. If a person sneezes on a sheet of bristol board, hangs it up in the Louvre and calls it art....well....

Well, it's a good thing you're around so we know when things are music and when things are art!

I find it funny all you white boys have such guilt about the word nigger. Where the hell did you guys grow up, white bread world.

Before you fellas get dead in my ass, I have a black sister in law, nephew, niece and my niece is dating a black man. These guys don't get no where near as upset about the use of the word as you guys do.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Mark Twain did that by fiat (if that makes sense ) too (probably due to public outrage).




Now that's f'in funny!

What about- A gifted, artistic, sensitive, filthy co_ _su_ _er.? I would venture to bet that that's one hell of a compliment .

If the "sneeze-on-bristol board" makes it to the Louvre, Ken, pm me....I can save you the fare to Paris! HECK!! I can even make you an original piece of art like that myself. Afterall, it was my idea...and I'm calling it..."Art".

Rick, buddy, I don't know if you're referring to me, but I could honestly care less what anyone has to say. Even though I find that word disgraceful, freedom of speech prevails.

As a juxtaposition to your family experience and the use of the word nigger; my best friend is brown, along with his brother and obviously his mother (my second mother). They absolutely abhor the word, and my best friend has actually been called it twice before.

I think it's important to not apply our experiences with our close friends and family, to the rest of society. You guys know very well that I could care less if somebody called me a gimp, but I don't think that you guys would walk up to someone else with a physical handicap and call them a gimp.

I don't know any of your family members, but it would be interesting to know if they would be accepting of the word nigger if it came from someone else that they didn't know, or was used in a distasteful way, which was the case with my best friend.

Rightly so, I don't think any black person would take kindly to a random white person coming up to them and kindly saying "excuse me nigger, could I ask for your assistance", rather than "excuse me sir/ma'am, could I ask for your assistance".

That's just my perception of things, my friend; I'm quite possibly wrong.

Peace.

Just wanted to point out that although I was using the n-word in this discussion with no ill intent, it's been in the back of my mind that I actually typed it, and typed/said it today more times than I have in my lifetime.

That's how much I despise the stupid word, I guess. It's the one word that really bothers me, and I imagine this will stick around for a while.

F@*K!

Webester defines the word music as:

a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity

b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony


I am no fan of RAP and it pains me to write this but based on this def. Rap is indeed music.

And that just SUCKS!

pn

I disagree with wheels about groups being able to use words that are negative to their group in a non negative way. That argument would rely on everyone in that group not being offended by that word. But there are black people who are sickened by the n word no matter what the source.

I think people should use any word they can think of. Forming full sentences, however, should be left to the privileged.

Ur so LEtist.

Most days I am proud to be Canadian, but there are exceptions. Banning a 25-year-old song because it doesn't reflect 21st century conventions seems like make-work at best and an attempt to rewrite history at worst.

Then again, before the ban some radio stations were editing the song (and many others) based on their own perception of what their audiences would accept -- but now it seems that more stations are playing the song unedited in protest. Not sure that is a win for anyone.

I guess this is what we have to do to make news between elections... and maybe distraact people from the F-35 vs Super Hornet debate

Excellent conversation.

MY point is that there is a huge difference between how individuals or corporations CHOOSE to act with respect to perceived social norms, and what the Government lawfully IMPOSES upon the populace.

We can and should hold individuals responsible when they fail to show dignity and respect towards people or groups. You can choose not to listen to or buy products that offend you. You can choose to not be offended. You can choose to take action.

However, trying to outlaw words or ideas is stupid, IMO.

When Negro people began demanding they be referred to by other terms, Black, Afro-American, African American, etc., I had hoped that they'd do the right thing and adopt the ugliest epithet they had (the "n" word).

I always imagined Nancy Regan having to ask that we give to the United "N-word" College Fund. Watching, powerful, wealthy, lipless white people (northern Euro, I mean) squirm every time they HAD to say it would have been awesome!

Kinda like QueerNation, NWA, or Dykes on Bikes. Though, I have to admit that I was totally freaked out at a TV show (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy) using that word in its title. I got over it.

What I wish, is that all minorities could use derogatory slurs from other minorities (sorry heterosexual white guys). I sometimes envy my 1/2 Jewish- 1/2 Italian friends, and I'm super jealous of all the nasty things my black gay friends can say openly----especially the ones with disablities.
Lucky Basterds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaFy0x_Uixo

P.S. Not directed at anyone in particular.

Lampshade, as an example, if I may, I'll use my life as a disabled person to explain my view.

In society, it's unacceptable and rude to refer to someone with a physical disability, a gimp, or retarded (ignorant people, and there are many, assume that someone in a wheelchair is mentally incapacitated to some degree ) which is correct IMO.

Now, IMO, just because I adhere to that principle for society as a whole, doesn't mean that I have to adhere to it personally. I don't believe the aforementioned words should be directed to other people (that someone may not know), because they're offensive, but my friends and family use them with me all the time. I can almost guarantee that if you were my friend, you'd do the same because I find it funny, and humor is a way that gets me/us through life. In a way, we've created a pidgin or dialect because we only talk this way amongst ourselves, so it's not offensive, and my friends and family would never talk to someone else with a disability, the same as they do with me.

Fundamentally, I just don't think it's fair to pontificate what's right or wrong for any given group of people. To a lot of people (not me), it's empowering to reclaim a word that is used to belittle them.

Very apropos to this entire discussion, here's an interesting conversation from Russian Television on political correctness. Near the end, one of the gentleman mentions, as I did, a general formulation for the use of derogatory terms, and who should have the right to use them.

Peace, my friend.

Well put Cam!

If another Marine calls me a “Jarhead” it’s a term of endearment. If a stranger, especially a Soldier, Airman or many Sailors say that, it might end up in a fight.

In line with your comment about people viewing people disabled as “mentally incapacitated” I had a run in with the “facilitator” of a human relations seminar at my last workplace over that. They showed a video of a woman, in a wheelchair, with a group of coworkers out at a restaurant. During the vignette the waitress deferred to the woman’s coworkers to order for her though she was not in any way mentally disabled. During the “facilitated” discussion following the vignette people were asked how to respond to such a situation. The universal answer, and the one the “facilitator” was looking for, was to show your indignation to the waitress and immediately correct her behavior. Having been physically disabled for 8 months following a motorcycle accident had a slightly different, though apparently unpopular, opinion. I said that it “was not my right to don my caped crusader outfit and drag my coworker out into the limelight making an example of the waitress just because her behavior made me feel uncomfortable.” I said “I would let my coworker handle the immediate situation and after all was said and done I would tell her how I felt and let her know that I would support any action she would like to take whether that be file a complaint with the manager, leave the restaurant, do nothing or anything else. The “facilitator” got red in the face and started wagging his finger at me saying “NO! NO! NO! At which point Larry, someone I’d met previously, helping him solve a UNIX problem, who was permanently in a wheelchair from a skiing accident threw his hand up in the air. The “facilitator” quickly called on him, probably seeing an out for himself. Larry said “Dean’s absolutely right! I’m never so insulted as when people think I want them to stand up for me simply because I can’t stand up myself. You should have seen the look on the “facilitator’s face, I wish I had a camera.

Self righteous people suck. Worse than that they scare the hell out of me. It’s where Nazis and Bolsheviks come from.

Ding, ding, ding, winner...

Whats that word? Oh yes, context. The complaintant missed it and the government board ignored it entirely, so now we have a silly ban.

For what its worth, I'll keep my government. I'll trade off a few silly song bans so I can keep my exellent quality, high value, universal health care.

Dean, sadly I'm not surprised by the opinion of the human relations coordinator. I would postulate that there was some sort of protocol he was following, as I have come across many guidelines for organizations that are supposed to educate or assist people, but instead they set people back.

I commend you for speaking up, and hope Larry keeps on advocating! It's all too commonplace for people to sit idly by and not question people in head positions of social services; some of whom don't have anything in common with the people they're advocating for because they sit behind a desk all day. And the most unfortunate aspect I've found, is that a lot of people with disabilities are intimidated. I for one don't fit into this category (surprise surprise) and constantly advocate on my behalf, as well as others.

Keep up the good fight, my friend . And keep a camera handy so you can videotape the next time you interject !

Well now that I’ve dragged myself into the 21st century and gotten a smart phone that’s a very good idea.

Wheelz,
How might a new visitor to this forum react to your avatar? Some will laugh. Some won't care. But somebody might be deeply hurt by it. You saying that it is ok because you are in a wheelchair (I apologize if that is not the case) to me is flawed.

Couple of quick thoughts.

1. If it is perfectly acceptable for person of one race to use a given word, but it is unacceptable for a person of a different race to use the very same word, is that not racism?

2. I can make any word you choose ("n**" or "African-American, "gay" or "F**," "honky" or "Caucasian") sound like an insult or a compliment.

(I'm Caucasian so I'm allowed to actually type the entire insulting word "honky" with impunity)

3. I have a little trouble with labeling someone who uses a racially unacceptable word as a "racist." Can we really equate someone who uses an unacceptable word with another who would chain a human being to the back of his pickup truck and drag him down a road to his death? Both may have a racial bias, but one goes far beyond the concept of bias.

4. While there has been progress (from the viewpoint of someone born in 1945, great progress), we are never going to solve our racial problems until we start talking and listening, REALLY listening, without judgment, to each other about how we feel. Can we put on the other fellas shoes and really try to understand how it feels to be him? I hope so.

5. Music, traditionally, by definition, must contain 3 things - rhythm, melody, and harmony.

"The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre."

By the traditional definition, rap is not music. The changing of the definition of music to include forms which are not music is already taking place as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread.

But, I hope those who embrace this change will understand and forgive those of us who are older, believe in the traditional definition of music, and are weary of the constant changing of the rules if we do not support what we consider the usurpation of fact.

And before you dismiss my words as "old guy" blah blah, let me remind you that rule changing is a relentless, ongoing social procedure. Before too long it will be YOUR rules that will be changing. And, while supporting some of these changes, like us, you will not be happy about many of them.

Lampshade, in all the time that I've spent in the hospital, and of all of the disabled people I have befriended, I don't know one that would be offended by it. Everyone I know would consider it as acceptable because I'm disabled, and in essence, poking fun at my own disability.

Ideally though, it's a form of freedom of expression that transcends everything. Somebody could have a NAZI swastika as an avatar, and although I wouldn't like it (and in this example, hopefully everyone would despise it), that person still has the fundamental right to do so.

Regarding my avatar specifically. If somebody would be deeply hurt by it, especially after finding out that I am disabled, then I honestly think that's pathetic and they have bigger fish to fry.

Cull the bluenoses !

Here's something to ponder....

Take the show "Family Guy" for eg. Consider the character of "Joe" (cop in the wheelchair) who is often the butt of many over-the-top, and I'm quite certain, offensive jokes to some handicapped persons by the other characters on FG. Now, if the character's lines were written by someone with a disability, does that mean that any concerns by those handicapped viewers are unfounded and they should accept it? would they feel different if the writer(s) were not handicapped?

I find this show(generally) funny, however, sometimes they go so far overboard it doesn't make sense and really is unnecessary as the rest of the show is quite funny. I saw an episode the other day that involved a child with cerebral palsy and they joked about how you don't see many victims of cb with grey hair. I immediately thought of my neighbours who have an adult son with the condition, and thought they would be very offended by such a comment. For the record, I'm quite certain they don't watch Family Guy, but that's not really my point. Where do we draw the line? do we even have a line or do they(we) keep changing the goal posts?

Cam, your posts often show you’ve done a lot of reading about various topics that also interest me and more importantly that you’ve spent time thinking about them as opposed to just blindly adhering to what you read. I only wish university truly fostered such thinking rather than paying lip service to it.

I especially appreciate your take on civil liberties which my travels of the world reveal most of us in the “West” take for granted. Over my life one of the most encroached upon is free speech which so many seem to feel should be curtailed lest it hurt some ones feelings. What a pathetically weak civilization we would have, perhaps are breeding, where no one should ever have to suffer or deal with having their feelings hurt. It’s one of the main reasons I noticed for other peoples disdain of “Westerners” . . . our self indulgent naval-gazing and ensuing guilt perpetuating the idea of “The White Man’s Burdon.” It will be interesting to see what our cultures evolve/devolve into as we continue to fight over temporally limited resources rather than expanding the resource base to raise the standard of living for everyone.

On another note, IMO the real measure of a person is not really how they acquit themselves in day-to-day life but how they handle life’s challenges, especially what for most would be adversity. Learning to laugh at and poke fun at oneself if a valuable and healthy tool. Since my motorcycle accident I’ve often wondered how I would respond to a permanent physical disability because based on that experience I’m not sure how well it would turn out. It’s very inspiring to meet someone who presses on and continues to grow rather than allow them self to wither away in all aspects of life. Cheers to you Cam!

The moral compass is constantly changing.

Man in the Box... here, they usually cut it back to just the consonant sounds - shh-t still sounds the same.

I've also heard an edit, dunno if it was Layne that rerecorded the line as "rub my nose in spit!"

Bren R.

Adrian, I don't watch Family Guy, but my sister is a devoted viewer of the show and quite frequently posts clips of Joe on my Facebook wall, and I find them all absolutely hysterical. From my experience, it's easily a minority of people in the disabled community that would find something on the show disparaging (I honestly can't think of one person that I know or have met).

Regarding where do we draw the line, I can't really say because nothing bothers me.

When you mentioned Family Guy and how some disabled people might be offended, you reminded me of the cartoon Quads that is an adult cartoon they used to air on the Toon Network. The cartoon is based on the life of a quadriplegic named Riley, who lives with friends with various disabilities. The show plays on a lot of stereotypes, but also truisms (I can relate to the ones concerning Riley), and could also be considered offensive by some. I, however, think it's absolutely hilarious.

Here's part one of three from the episode Let The Gimp Games Begin. I encourage you, Dean and others to at least watch all three parts of that episode and let me know what you think. Pay close attention to the lyrics of the song at the opening of the show . Too funny!

Don't do a background check of the show! Or at least not until you formulate an opinion about it.

Cheers

Dean, yes, it does seem that you and I have a lot in common. I have a voracious appetite for knowledge, and expanding it, but have a long way to go to catch up to you (and others on the forum), my friend. I've learnt a lot from your posts (as well as others), and will continue to.

There's a lot of people on this forum that I have great respect for, and you are one of them. Thus, your compliment carries a lot of weight, is greatly appreciated, and won't soon be forgotten.

Cheers right back at you!

OK, a bit more info on this...

1. Turns out the decision was made by a self-regulating group set up by Canadian broadcasters, not an actual government group.

2. The relevent government group (CRTC) has asked to have the decision revisited and retracted if possible.

Yay for having classic rock fans in the federal government.

If they really want to get rid of "Money for Nothing", the gov't should take a look at most of it's civil servants.