Revel?

Posted by: AAAA

Revel? - 06/23/16 08:33 PM

Has anyone here directly compared Axiom products with Revel products sound wise?
Posted by: nickbuol

Re: Revel? - 06/23/16 11:48 PM

Crazy. I was just looking up the same thing earlier today, but for different reasons than you probably...

The Axiom M80s made a list of 4 great speakers under $4000 a couple of years ago:
Axiom Audio, KEF, PSB, Revel -- Four Terrific Floorstanding Speakers for Under $4000/Pair
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/24/16 05:19 AM

Yeah. Considering options. I think Bob mentioned auditioning Revel when he was looking. I know he ended up with 100s.

I'm saving for a no holds barred super system. My plan is to have enough money put away by the time I hit 40 to buy whatever I want. 34 now. Its fun to dream! smile

Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/26/16 08:32 AM

I'd be building a system around M100s or f208s. Where is that Bob hiding?
Posted by: bridgman

Re: Revel? - 06/26/16 01:52 PM

I had a chance to listen to a pair of Revel towers (maybe F12 but thought the number was higher) that were for sale used in a local audio store. Roughly same configuration as M60s except slighly larger woofers IIRC.

Didn't get a chance to do a direct comparison, was thinking about taking them home and giving them a listen (ie they sounded decent) but dawdled and someone else bought them instead. Initial impression was a bit less bass than the M60s and with that came the slightly "tighter" sound I associate with smaller speakers on a stand.

I don't have much luck comparing speakers unless they are in the same spot in the same room though... if the room is good or the music is good I tend to think the speaker is good too. Even then I get stuck in the "ok they clearly sound different but I have no idea which one is right or even closer to right" trap.

I'm still fiddling with the listening room and still hearing big changes even though the speakers are always the same M60v4s. I hadn't been happy with the sound recently then remembered I had temporarily put the glass-topped coffee table back. Removing it made a huge difference in both imaging and soundstage... started hearing sounds outside the speaker pair again, including some seriously WTF?? sounds *way* off to one side or the other. Soundstage width is one of the areas where v4's seem to be significantly improved over the ti's in my HT system.

It's amazing how little things make a difference - I had been reading a hard-cover book and realized that even having the book open on my lap made a small but noticeable change in imaging. I probably need to replace the big overstuffed chair with something smaller as well.

Makes you want to go back to headphones smile
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/26/16 05:37 PM

Thanks for sharing. smile I am really looking to put together a system capable of startle factor. A dynamic ststem capable of genuine fear and anxiety when called upon in certain movie soundtracks. Dread even.

My current system really sounds great. But huge and effortless dynamic capability is definitely lacking.
Posted by: bridgman

Re: Revel? - 06/26/16 06:10 PM

One thing that periodically surprises me is how much difference a big-ass power amplifier made each time I added one (this time going from HK 3270 receiver's 65WPC amp to a used Adcom GFA555 at >200WPC). It only allows the volume control to go a moderate amount higher before the clipping lights start to wake up, but that seems to be a very important handful of dB in terms of "slam" or whatever we are calling it these days.

At least with an HT system stacking up big-ass subwoofers gets you most of the way - I was always impressed with how effortlessly John <user name escapes me>'s 4-subwoofer system handled peaks that my system couldn't touch. IIRC he was running a mix of EP600s and SVS's to take advantage of their different strengths and weaknesses... I ended up copying that on a smaller scale by adding an EP500 to my SVS PC+ 20-39 and it does make a very nice difference.

EDIT - lightbulb moment... I was in PEI a few weeks ago and had a nagging feeling there was someone I should be looking up while I was there. Three weeks late, oh well...

I guess I successfully derailed another thread. Sorry about that crazy
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/26/16 07:03 PM

I'm using 150wpc seperates to drive the front 3 channels. The rest is driven by my 80wpc AVR.

Power on hand is not an issue (I hope! laugh ) I think it might be coming down to a higher spl design with more driver surface area. A future subwoofage upgrade is probably a good consideration.

I hope you had a great time on the island. smile Three weeks ago was a rainy spell if I remember.
Posted by: Ian

Re: Revel? - 06/27/16 06:51 PM

Hi Serenity Now,

I know what you are looking for. I love the same thing myself and my system delivers it. I really think you are way under powered to get what you are looking for. The key is loads of power for the dynamics which means not just a lot of RMS output but also lots of dynamic headroom above that. I am running my LFR1100s with a 4-channel ADA1500 which is about 700 watts RMS per speaker and lots of dynamic headroom above that. I use an ADA1500-5 for the rest of the channels and two EP800s for the subs.
Posted by: fredk

Re: Revel? - 06/27/16 08:37 PM

Originally Posted By Serenity_Now
Thanks for sharing. smile I am really looking to put together a system capable of startle factor. A dynamic ststem capable of genuine fear and anxiety when called upon in certain movie soundtracks. Dread even.

My current system really sounds great. But huge and effortless dynamic capability is definitely lacking.

Have you considered the LFR? Every time I listened to them over the course of the day I was at the Axiom I was more impressed. The clarity and presentation of the female voice was incredible.
Posted by: MatManhasgone

Re: Revel? - 06/27/16 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By Ian
Hi Serenity Now,

I am running my LFR1100s with a 4-channel ADA1500 which is about 700 watts RMS per speaker and lots of dynamic headroom above that.


OK, you have me very confused. with your chart http://www.axiomaudio.com/1500-amplifier it lists the ATA1500-4 at being 350watts at 4ohms and 325watts at 8ohms. I have the LFR1100 and running with the ATA1000-4 is shows me maxing out at 250watts. So do I have far more head room than I realize, or are you adding up the fronts and the backs into a single number?




Posted by: Ian

Re: Revel? - 06/28/16 03:08 AM

Hi Matt,

The RMS power available to each LFR1100 using an ADA1500-4 is actually 750 watts. The total continuous output capability of the power supply is 1500 watts. Each amp channel can output 650 watts continuous. There are two amp channels driving each speaker so the maximum continuous output is being set by the power supply divided by two.

For an ADA1000-4 the maximum output of the power supply is 1000 watts continuous and each amp module is 250 watts continuous. Using a 6 ohm number for the rear the maximum continuous output available to each LFR1100 is 437 watts. Since the capacitance available for power storage is lower in an ADA1000 compared to an ADA1500 the dynamic headroom multiplier is also lower but it is still pretty good. Good dynamic headroom above the continuous power available is basically a matter that everything in the chain is capable of short bursts of power way above their continuous rating combined with the amount of capacitance available for power storage. The dynamic headroom is very important when considering your real-world overall power available for playing back a soundtrack.

Pretty soon I am going to change my system to have one ADA1500-2 driving each LFR1100. This will take the maximum continuous power available to each speaker up to 1200 watts (using a 6 ohm number for the rear) and double the dynamic headroom available to each speaker. The goal is to never hit the limits of the amplifier no matter the power being requested during the maximum dynamics of the soundtrack. And a good soundtrack will have very wide dynamics.
Posted by: MatManhasgone

Re: Revel? - 06/28/16 06:39 AM

Thanks for that info.

And when you upgrade, if you want to sell your old ADA1500-4 for a really good price I'd be interested.. wink wink
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/28/16 11:24 AM

Thanks Ian. You are spot on with what I'm after.

So really I should be looking at a better power section. My eventual upgrade to Atmos with require an additional 2ch amp over and above my current separates. I think I will bump my current 2ch amp to side surround duty and get a new monster for R/L duty. Decisions. smile This route would be cheaper and less hassle for sure. Easier to sneak 1 box through the door..... laugh
Posted by: Ian

Re: Revel? - 06/28/16 03:01 PM

Amplifiers blend in so nicely with all the other gear the equipment rack. It is just getting them from the front door to the audio room.
Posted by: Jeff_in_the_D

Re: Revel? - 06/28/16 04:05 PM

I managed to bring in a pair of M3 bookshelves unnoticed! &#128515;
Jeff
Posted by: Jeff_in_the_D

Re: Revel? - 06/28/16 04:12 PM

Although with them now hanging on the wall their kinda obvious.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/29/16 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By Strider53
I managed to bring in a pair of M3 bookshelves unnoticed! &#128515;
Jeff


I wonder if the neighbors would notice me leaving the house in a rolled up carpet.... lol. I might try renting a pro amp and see how Uber power likes my mains. I have to decide between an ada 1500 and a QSC DCA 2422 if I go the mucho amp route. Either way I have some time to decide while I save and enjoy the summer.
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Revel? - 06/29/16 07:57 PM

Trevor, perhaps by the time you are ready for your dream system, a single driver speaker will be available that covers 80Hz to 20KHz. Otherwise, try to minimize the number of drivers and use a digital cross-over. Oh...and stay away from tubes, gramophones, reel-to-reel, cassette and 8-track smile.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/29/16 09:15 PM

Lol. You shit disturber you!

So I guess a 4head VCR (baller!) is out of the question for video too! whistle No fun at all...
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Revel? - 06/29/16 11:34 PM

serenity,

i'm using a krell fpb 300cx to power the front drivers on my lfr's and a kav 205a to power the rear drivers.

the 300cx is rated down to 2ohms @ 1200w per channel, the 250a is rated down to 4 ohms @ 500w per channel.

granted, you dont need that much power... but, to Ians comment about dynamic head room i thought i'd chime in...
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/30/16 05:24 AM

My speakers have never sounded as muscular as when I demo'd them on a huge $$ classe amp setup at the dealer. I had always thought it was just a good room we were in.

I thought I had a powerful setup. I guess it's all relative. smile One thing about this hobby. The more you learn the more you realise you dont know. Freaking hindsight biting me again.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Revel? - 06/30/16 09:31 AM

I'd tell you to enjoy what you have. I'm probably running more power than most.

Similar thing as cars.. Right? Every time i see someone with a gt3 cup car i wish i had one (kind of)...
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/30/16 09:53 AM

I'll just have to rent one and see if big #'s make a difference worth the outlay. And will report back as usual. Pro amps are super cheap to rent. $50/month.
Posted by: dakkon

Re: Revel? - 06/30/16 12:15 PM

The pro amps are quite popular with the dedicated theater room crowd. Very cost effective power.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 06/30/16 04:12 PM

Call me proactive.... It might rain saturday. grin

Rented a yorkville amp at 1800 a side.. My wife says "I hope you have fun with it. But I hope it doesn't make a difference." She knows me all too well. lol.

Posted by: Ian

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 04:41 AM

I have not checked the specs of the amp you have rented but speaking in general terms these sorts of amps tend to have no dynamic headroom and limiter circuitry, so the wattage rating can be tough to make a comparison with. Does this amp have two power cords?
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 07:34 AM

I think the quoted1800 is at 2 ohms. Its a class H 3 tiered rail switch design. One 15A cord on it. Havent hooked it up yet. Wanna be sure I dont cook something. Reading manual thoroughly.

8ohm 600w
4ohm 1000w
2ohm 1800w

This is with the 2ohm voltage limiting mode engaged. burst rated at 1000/1800/2500

1000/1800/NA 4ohm mode no limiting mode. burst rated at 1800/3500.

I will run it in limited 2ohm mode so I reduce the risk of letting the smoke out of my speakers.... I expect a noise floor when I hook this up. No idea how it will respond to my puny speakers.
Posted by: Ian

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 08:35 AM

What are you using for speakers?
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 08:56 AM

Mordaunt Short Mezzo 6's.

Amp in system and level matched. Running amp wide open (no attenuation) with preout level lowered to compensate. 1db volume changes correspond to 1db spl in room. All should be well gain wise. Slight hiss at 2' from speakers with no signal playing. Quiet at mlp.

Just starting to listen... I might get brave and go to 4ohm full voltage mode.

I am just barely lighting the second meter light at 75db. Its still asleep.

This is fun.
Posted by: Ian

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 09:23 AM

I would be careful doing this without a blessing from the speaker manufacturer. Our M80HP, M100, LFR880HP, and LFR1100s are designed to handle crazy power (regular M80s and LFR880s crossed into a subwoofer are good too). But most speaker manufacturers will not recommend you do this and the speakers will blow up.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 09:42 AM

Thanks smile

I am being very careful and will not go full voltage mode. This thing has scary power.

I no longer beleive all amps sound the same. At all. This one is ragged and a little bit slow sounding. (If that is possible.) But holy snap the power. It just sounds like its not even trying. This is what I want. I turned down the L/R preamp output by -6db. I didnt touch the sub gain level. This should mean under 60hz I am losing bass output in stereo mode. The bass sounds fuller and punchier. Everything sounds more impactful.

Uh oh.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 11:11 AM

I'm tempted to exchange the yorkville for 2 smaller studio amps at 560w bridged. They were all out when I picked this one up. This is just great. I want to try with a "cleaner" amp setup. This is meant for concert PA sound. It still sounds very good. I'm being fussy.

To all you Axiom owners in Canada-

Step 1: Rent an uber amp from long and Mcquade for a month and check it out. Pretty cool stuff even on my lesser speakers.

Step 2: curse me out and try to figure out how to budget for an ada 1500 setup. Like I'm doing.

BE CAREFUL. Lol.
Posted by: MarkSJohnson

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 11:41 AM

When you posted that you wanted gobs of CLEAN power, I was going to tell you to just buy the Axiom amp.

It's only money, and I like spending other peoples'! smile
Posted by: Mojo

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 12:17 PM

Speaker destroyer --> https://www.long-mcquade.com/26468/Pro_A...DSP_Control.htm
Posted by: bridgman

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 01:28 PM

It might be worth a quick check to make sure the amp isn't punching up the bass response a couple of dB but what you are describing seems to match what I'm experiencing with a known (or at least believed-to-be) flat-response amp.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 07/01/16 05:14 PM

I might take some measurements without subs involved to confirm before and after amps. AVR vs Seperate vs Pro Amp. I dont expect them to measure any differently than when I tested before. Depends on the weather tomorrow. So far you are on the money John.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 07/02/16 10:15 AM

One thing to note about this amp is the preout signal has to be as high as possible to avoid amplifying the preamp noise floor. I expect all high gain pro amps to be very similar. This could be an issue if mixing pro amps with consumer gear with lower gain.

I have made arrangements to try out 2 studio amps bridged at 560w/8 ohms each. For less rental fee ta boot.

The noise floor and seeming crosstalk between channels makes this a poor choice for critical listening. (Surprise) wink )My previous setup doesnt have the dynamics this yorkville does, but sounds like a scalpel by comparison. This is more like a cleaver. laugh A very enjoyable cleaver.

The measurements show no obvious embellishment of low frequencies with pink noise above the crossover point. I'm too nervous to run full range test signals (no subs) through my towers with this amp at reference level.
Posted by: AAAA

Re: Revel? - 07/24/16 02:17 PM

Went through the studio amps rental test. Junk. Neither of them would produce piano without audible distortion at certain frequencies... worse when bridged. What!? There is a 3ch ADA-1500 right now on sale in a used USA audiomart. Tempted. I re-rented the yorkville after reading how to properly set preamp and amp gain levels. Definitely making plans for a permanent high powered solution now. smile