Based on a couple great threads recently, I thought it might be fun for us to weigh in on our opinion on what makes a system sound great.

Here’s my list, ranked, from what I think are the most important items to aheive sonic success. Most are free or included with Axiom speakers.

1. Having a symmetrical room at least where the LCR channels are placed
2. Placing main listening position on centerline of rooms long axis
3. Using correct ratios of listener to speakers and seating distance to display size
4. Having a room with controlled decay times
5. Having a room with a low noise floor
6. Having an AVR or 2ch processor with advanced tuning capabilities (that corrects impulse response)
7. Having multiple subwoofers
8. Having an AT screen to hide speakers from viewers if possible
9. Having speakers with wide dispersion
10. Having speakers with smooth frequency response

Nice to haves:

11. Having a room minimum >2000 cu ft
12. Dolby Atmos/Surround Upmixer
13. Outboard Amplifiers
14. Having matched LCR channels
15. Diffusion

What are yours?

I only have #4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 15 in my main listening room. Yet it sounds great!

As long as someone a) has a great recording, b) listening to at least 5.1 upmixed audio on neutral full range speakers, in a c) typically furnished living room with rugs and curtains, it's going to be a good audio experience.

I think stereo listening is far more demanding of good room symmetry and acoustics, in which case I'd agree with your list.

It's a good list Trevor.

I'll add - having a equipment that matches your taste (warm, flat, natural, etc). And I'll second what Hambrabi mentioned, having a good source is important.

But I'll quibble on a couple of the items on the list. I don't think I'd include the AT screen, as while it enhances the experience, it doesn't enhance the sound. Unless what you're getting at is using a vertical center with a projector for a home theater system; then I agree.
And really going out on a limb, I don't think multiple subs is as important as the others; at least for a system used for music. (I'll be hearing from Mojo, I'm sure.)

In general I’d say everything you listed is desirable … but for some reason, I can’t prove, I bet you could meet all of them and fail to have a great sounding system.

The first item on my list would be
1) someone who is interested and invested in creating a great sounding system

Over time what needs to be done to make it great will vary but in general I agree with 4, 5, 9, & 10 on condition: the acceptance specs are reasonable.

On the other items … I’ve had pretty good sounding rooms which didn’t meet 1,2,3,6,7,8, 10-13,15 (14 I’m on the fence … depending on what you mean by matched)
But they might have been improved if they where implemented.

I just have not put together enough rooms to have a formula. For me … experimenting is key.

On ranking … which I think is your real question
I’m at a loss … as over time I’ve discovered what I believed to be important sound wise was not as important as I thought. Or perhaps not as important in that situation. I think a lot of this stuff varies with each case because your ears and brain compensate for quite a bit. Or it might be that in some cases I was more critical than in others …

You have more experience with multiple setups in various conditions… which makes your ordering quite interesting.
It’s very different then I would expect … but I’m not sure I could come up with an order that I’d be happy with.

I can justify my order later, but I’m curious what each of your items and order would be? I dont want to jump the shark yet.

I was going to PM Trevor agreeing and commenting on his second point, "Placing main listening position on centerline of rooms long axis" but was unable as he has blocked me.

I've been on this site since 2002 and have observed its decline. I love Axiom speakers, Ian and the folks at Axiom. Nevertheless, I think it's time for me to withdraw from posting on Axiom forums.

Trevor, That's exactly what I don't think I can come up with.

I guess at the moment I may be behind you in discovery ...
For example ...I still think frequency response is somewhere at the top of the list. But I can't prove it as I do not have enough information on what any speaker's frequency response really is ... (see "Manufacture Charts" below). So unless I measure it myself, which is a bit of an overwhelming task to do right, I have nothing to use to evaluate ranking.

Another example from my family room would place room centering and symmetry much lower in ranking even though I'm a true believer in it ... how am I supposed to deal with that??

On other issues, my memory of past setups is fallible, in that I didn't necessarily evaluate them, scientifically. I for sure didn't listen critically for all the stuff on your list (if I did any at all). I can give you general opinion of what Issues I think are important. But I'm not sure I could rank them in any scientific way. As I see it, there are many fallacies in attempting this kind of ranking. Each list item my effect the ranking of every other list item. For example having the speakers centered the room might change the ranking of the effectiveness of diffusion higher or lower. So, to do a study you'd have to subjectively evaluate a single point against each fixed setup of every other point.

In general, my current thinking, is coming up ranking would be at best be unsupportable opinion. Sorry, if that's not the answer you were looking for ...



Manufacture Charts
I can not use the stuff posted on manufactures websites as it's more marketing then useable data
My reading tells me there is a very good correlation but an understanding of psychoacoustics is needed to see it.
So, all manufactures play some games to make their chart look more palatable to the untrained eye. They also do not post comparable apple to apple charts ...

This makes the charts somewhat unusable. 1) Ever noticed that the vertical axis of most of these charts spans 120db. That compresses the information your interested into a much flatter line where 3db is too small to read. 2) few post what smoothing was used. 3) what frequency response is being shown (on-axis, listening-window (which probably is measured differently by each manufacturer), or something else). I'm not even sure that all charts from the same manufacturer are even comparable ...

I for one would be disappointed if you left 2x ...
The one request I'd like to make is that you leave yourself an option of coming back (don't burn the bridge).
I.E. don't make a hard statement which you feel you need to honor. That way you can return, if you so desire, and just be a long lost poster we are happy to see again.

I’ll expand on my own deep insights with my deep biases.

1. Good recordings matter.
- Corollary 1: Most recording decisions don’t have anything to do with the limitations of CD (16/44) and have everything to do with decisions made by the recording engineer, artist, and/or the streaming site.
- Corollary 2: Music is emotional, so form factor (LP, tape, CD) tactility (physically handling media), or competitive consumption (“look at the size of my collection”, bit rate, codecs, branding, etc) trumps actual listening and psychoacoustics.

2. Frequency response matters.
- Corollary 1 : There’s such a thing as good enough. Once you reached a certain level (say, Olive score > 6.5 with sub) you’re done, end game achievement unlocked. Stop grinding and buying loot boxes.
- Corollary 2: Most loudspeakers don’t have a good neutral frequency response, and therefore aren’t good enough.
- Corollary 3: Most people are fine with non-neutral speakers because Veblen goods always trump good sound.
- Corollary 4: Audiophiles think they want good sound, but look for it in the wrong places (DAC’s, cables, cable risers, power conditioners, Hi-Res, etc).
- Corollary 5: Beefy power and big speakers are only a consideration if you listen above 80 dB. I don’t, but maybe you do.

3. Any room with do.
- Corollary 1: 5.1+ music listening beats stereo beats mono. The fewer the channels, the more room acoustics matter.
- Corollary 2: A subwoofer levels the playing field.
- Corollary 3: Sophisticated EQ and DSP can make a difference.

The only audio brands I trust is Angstrom, Axiom, Dutch & Dutch, Ethera, Genelec, Infinity, Joseph Audio, Neumann, Revel, and Sonos. The rest, they either don’t care or you don’t know what you’re getting.

Oh rrlev! So careful in your assesment! Take a leap. Lol. I get it. So much going on and every setup has its own challenges and strengths. P.S. stop being so humble. Smarty pants. Lol.

2x6 Dont go! Its just a mute function so I could resist getting drawn into that other business. Dont take it to heart. Put your response up here! We will benefit for sure from your input.

Hambrabi, I agree about biases. Mind if I play devils advocate in your expansion?

Great Recordings- I get it. Garbage in garbage out. Not sure the media itself can be the judge of a good sound reproduction system. I agree you dont stand a chance with a poor recording.

Frequency Response Matters- Agreed. A designed to measure neutral speaker is important. In practice, tuning a speaker to behave as well as it measures is not a good or realistic presentation in my experience. A klippel measurement does not illlustrate a real presentation when a speaker hits a room. This is one of the reasons I find it interesting when Erin or Amir measures one thing and experience another… sometimes “bad” measurements sound fine or vice versa.

Any Room will do- I like your “bigger they are harder they fall” gumption! I agree within reason. Starting with a good foundation sure makes life easier.

Ok. I will justify my ranking.

I will keep it point form so it is easier to get through and maybe even readable! Lol. If you read through, I hope it makes sense how each items makes the next one better or even possible in some cases. It's a cumulative effort. Many of these factors can be pre-planned, and don't cost money.

It is a case of 1+1=3 when each is added up. If you do all of them, you end up with a superlative and predictably awesome result -because you can make it exactly as you like and learn a pile in the journey!

1. Having symmetrical room for at least LCR channels
-even and predictable L\C\R SPL output and frequency response at upper bass frequencies. Channels match.
-even boundary loading and predictable front\side wall cancellation
-even energy and matched timing from 1st reflections
-soundstage has even weight across pans from L-->R in a stereo configuration
-center image stays centered over a broad frequency range. No drifting.
-easier to integrate into subwoofers when front channels are equally room loaded

2. Placing listener on centerline of long axis
-same time arrival and amplitude from lateral reflections off of side walls
-1st and 2nd order length room modes are forced to a lower frequency -crossed to subwoofer range
-more flexible seating arrangements when it comes to spacing from back wall in small rooms

3. Correct Listener to speaker and display size ratios
-distance between speakers should be roughly 0.85x the distance from the speaker plane to listener plane
-distance from display surface should be roughly 1.15x screen diagonal to seated eyeball at MLP (this ratio allows speaker ratio above to work for speakers to flank screen in AT setup)
-listening plane should be roughly a multiple of 0.32x (large room) or 0.2x (small room) room length from the back wall.
-Front L/R channels should be a ratio 0.2x or 0.32x from the side and front walls but be dissimilar distances from boundaries respectively. Thirds and fifths. Still relevant.

4. Controlled Decay times
- targets: AV room RT60 300msec Hifi room RT60 450msec
-shortens the in room decay of transient peaks in program material.
-increases perceived system dynamics.
-improves overall room SPL handling. Can listen much louder without fatigue.
-when the decay of listening space is shorter than that of the program material the psychoacoustic affect is your room is ignored by your brain and the recording becomes your frame of reference for size\space\distance. -incredibly important for multichannel movie and live 2ch recording realism. You are there!

5. Low Noise Floor
-improved impression of overall dynamic range of source material
-improved system headroom (need less power to overcome distractions)
-improved dialogue and effect intelligibility at low levels

6. Advanced Tuning Capabilities
-Ability to time align channels to each other to match time arrival of direct sound across entire frequency range (multiple drivers) Globally matched impulse response
-Ability to properly delay speaker channels to allow for subwoofer latency and timing alignment
-Ability to properly phase align subwoofer to main L\C\R channels at the crossover frequency
-Ability to sweeten, fatten, warm, or otherwise modify the response to suite taste or room environment
-Ability to add notch filters to reduce the effects of cabinet resonances, room modes etc.
-Ability to compensate for AT screen material over a targeted frequency range if required (perf screens)

7. Multiple Subwoofers
-increased overall system headroom and dynamics
-reduction of room modal effects and increased flexibility in multiple listener placement
-improved transient attack (contingent on room decay above)
-improved overall system integration (contingent on proper advanced tuning above)
-removal of any overhang or drone associated with subwoofer "slowness" (contingent on time\phase alignment above)
-ability to truly frighten\startle listeners when called upon in movie soundtracks

8. Having an AT screen
-hiding visual cues that confirm where sound is coming from
-spatial qualities are enlarged (width of soundstage is increased to wall boundary)
-ability to use and hide acoustical devices. Bass traps in corners, diffuser on front wall. etc.
-ability to deploy a vertical center channel to match L\R channels
-overall tidy and professionally integrated room appearance. No clutter, subs, wires, or boxes.

9. Wide Dispersion
-option to use diffusion instead of absorption at early lateral reflection points
-improved apparent source width
-improved intelligibility and clarity for listeners off axis
-easier to integrate multiple speakers into seamless and realistic soundstage ie. L\C\R

10. Smooth and Neutral Designed Frequency Response
-ability to deploy speakers in room with no EQ or tuning required
-greater ability to tune with DSP without losing headroom or creating distortion

11. Room Greater than 2000 cu.Ft.
-increased distance from listeners to lateral surround channels. Less hotspotting.
-room for deployment of subwoofers away from front wall
-room for deployment of large front soundstage speakers
-room for false wall employing AT screen
-greater flexibility for larger seating and more listener positions

12. Dolby Atmos\Surround Upmixer
-when combined with a controlled decay time, room dissolves away to create 3D suspension of disbelief
-channels should fire across listening area into absorption to avoid confusing late reflections (of generated reflections!)

13. Outboard Amplifiers
-increased headroom for dynamic passages without distortion
-ability to easily turn off L\C\R channels independently while tuning\aligning subwoofers without unterminating
-ability to upgrade in a modular fashion as technology moves onward. ie. AV processors.

14. Having Matched LCR channels
-increased dynamic headroom over phantom center
-increased intelligibility of dialogue for listeners off axis
-seamless transition of sound when pans happen across front soundstage
-similar response and boundary loading of front soundstage

15. Diffusion
-ability to reduce room decay time without reducing overall energy. Generally.
-ability to enlarge apparent boundary locations (side walls)
-ability to add depth to visual cues when combined with an AT screen. Almost like a Diorama. (front wall)
-reduces the pin point affect of small speakers used as LCRs (front wall)
-creates enveloping ring of sound around listener (rear wall)

I can make any system sound more addictive by tossing the furniture out of the room, placing the speakers along the long wall and forming an isosceles triangle with the MLP. Depending on the speaker, I may have to crop the bass with prejudice. Then I bring the furniture in until it sounds just right. Whatever furniture is left over gets burned in the firepit over beer while the speakers are blaring in the background as the ol' lady howls like a banshee.

Agreed. Even for movies.

Exceptions taken?

What do you guys think is worth looking at. Is it the order or the items themselves?

Trying to learn from you.

So would it be best to calculate your main viewing/listening position first then work backwards to speaker placement? Based on a 120" diagonal screen it looks like the viewing position would be roughly 12 ft at 1.15x but for a 16x9 120" screen the calculation for best viewing is 15 feet. I guess my question would be would everyone with similar sized screen have the same viewing/listening position regardless of room length/width? Or do you have to account for the room size first?

I admit I don’t view your list as applicable to my situation. Because of my room configuration and (OCD towards minimalist design), anything less than 5.1 channels, compact loudspeakers, wireless digital streaming playback, and compact equipment would be a suboptimal experience.

At the risk of starting a flame war, maybe what I really wanted was a sound bar system. Channel separation of a 4 foot bar is fine for my listening position, but even at the low volumes I routinely listen to, I don’t think I’d jump ship until neutral audio is the default configuration, there’s no wireless dropouts, the apps are seamless, and subwoofers reach 30 Hz with no midbass hump (or better yet, you can choose your own outside their ecosystem).

But I went with audio separates because I was enthusiastic about home renovations (just like everyone else since 2020) and I reacquainted myself with Axiom through their YouTube channel. Voting with my dollars felt like I was voting for the underdog, science, Canadian jobs, and sticking it to China! I still view the traditional audio business as a sinking ship that will die with the baby boomers, so maybe Axiom will find a way to survive?

There are always going to be like myself who would never go the way of the sound bar. I enjoy the flexibility and options of building a system. I'm the same way when it comes to cars. I purchase cars that are fun to drive and that have lots of options for mods. Wireless systems would be a possibility. Even in a smaller room I think I would prefer m2s or m2ow with a sub over a sound bar package.

I always consider room size and listener location first based on modes. Then speakers. Then screen. It is way easier with an AT screen because sightlines for off axis viewers arent an issue if LCR is behind.

I usually draft the room with furniture to ensure it “works” as a living space wise before I submit for review.

Admittedly, I skip this drafting step if the owner doesnt need reassurance. Just use math instead.

But Trevor, I thought room nodes and ideal audiophile ratios were myths, unless you place a single speaker in one corner and your listening position was in another corner of the room.

https://www.harman.com/documents/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt3_0.pdf
(See page 18)

I'd still argue that frequency response is king for consumer loudspeakers, and we can tackle the low frequency room issues with furnishings, EQ, and one or more subwoofers.

https://youtu.be/5dSXPsIJrhc

(He talks about headphones, but if you like Andrew's straight talk on YT, you'll like his too: hitting the target frequency response matter more than anything else; distortion doesn't matter until it does, so just add powaaaah!)

Out of curiosity I double checked my L/R speaker placements and decided to try to get as close to 3:5 ratio as I could. This involved sliding the front speakers back about 3” from where they were sitting. Wow. The imaging and soundstage really opened up and the towers virtually disappeared. Even my six year old said “daddy that sounds better.” Currently my MLP is at 16’ 4” in a toon that is 20’ wide. I have the towers 4’ from the side walls and 29” from the rear wall to the front tweeter. Which leaves about 12” of space from the back tweeter to the wall.

IHambrabi, in a rectangular room modes are predictable, measurable and defeatable. But to beat the modes you must have at least 2 opposing subwoofers. Ideally 4. If you dont have that option (few do!) , placing the listener at a behaved area outside of a peak or null is a must.

Floyd’s point in the powerpoint is multiple subwoofers and where -not modes dont exist or exhibit behaviour in rooms. He is saying a “golden ratio” room size (1:1.6:2.6) or similar is not a must for reproduction.

A perfect speaker, without regard for the other items first, in my opinion, guarantees nothing. Wasnt this the case for people who bought based on Olive score?

I watch all of Andrews videos too. Great fundamental stuff.

I've read two differing opinions with a single subwoofer. Some say to place it in a corner and others say not to.

I think it depends on how what you're looking for in a sub. If it's a flat response ... probably best to stay out of the corners. If you want more boom (for movies or like the boom for your music) putting it in the corner maybe the way to go ... just MO

I've broken every rule in the book except the MLP isosceles. That includes placing my 800v4 at almost the mid-point of the wall behind my MLP. It is absolutely awesome!

I've tried many other locations and surprisingly it sounds very, very good at all of them. Some locations though excite my gas fireplace's fundamental resonant frequency more than others.

I haven't been able to shift my sub around much yet. We haven't finished the wiring across a few walls so I have limited outlets to plug the sub up to. We've been working on the conduit throughout the basement to allow new wires or to replace wires to all speaker locations and also up to the projector location.

My understanding is that oposing subs centered on the wall is one of the better arrangements. I think you once said that you had two 500s up front a the 800 centered in the back which sounds like a great arrangement to me intuitively …

Mojo, now whenever you post something like “excite my gas fireplace …resonant freq” I find I always have more then one interpretation pop into my head … not a pleasant picture …

If you measure the phase response of a speaker or subwoofer you will find placing them away from room boundries leaves the signal intact. Phase plots cycle correctly. Pushing them into corners or against boundaries has the effect of removing phase coherence. Phase plots have incomplete cycles and polarity jumps all over.

Ie. The input signal cannot match the output, and the output cannot be made to match other channels easily at the crossover frequency. The result? High output with low choerence and random cancellation. Not to mention exciting all room modes.

“Boomy” and “slow” bass.

I have an install coming up with a recessed EP500. I will measure it to see what a baffle mount does.

Would it affect anything to set it in a horizontal position? I can’t leave it in its current position bc it’ll interfere with the screen. Thought about getting some fat dots and setting it on its side.

That’s what I’m planning, sub horizontal under the screen. It must be somewhat ok, since Axiom gives you that option, but I always wondered if there was any negative effects (moving driver closer to the floor). I’ve tried it in this position and it sounded fine.

My next step in sub-room integration is to learn more about how Trever is doing it. Best I’ve done is set my 4 sub levels to match the main speakers. I need to learn more about phase, measurements and how they relate to practical adjustments … I.e. just get more applied experience … theory only goes so far.

Alan also mentioned that years ago when I ask about pushing a sub up against a wall. Want at least a foot behind it if not two. But you do the best you can with the space you got … sometimes it’s just not practical.

I may try orea feat underneath it. I imagine they would grip well enough not to move due to vibrations.

I’ve used Axioms foam packing material for laying my 600s on their sides … worked great.

Good idea. I have some of that laying around.

This fellow explains how I do it in an easy to follow format. I default to 80hz for center frequency and once one sub is set, I phase align the other subs to it with their phase dials if not equidistant to the mlp. Measurements are at the MLP for measurement reference position for all traces. Since my setups are usually symmetrical I use the left channel with nearest sub and go from there. The left channel and right channel are phase aligned by default in a symmetrical setup. If both subs are on the front wal, say at 1/4 points, the same delay (distance) setting can be used in the AVR. If different, you can do sub at a time. In the end they should sum.

This guy is excellent and is much more experienced than me hands down. He has great content in general.

Part 1

https://youtu.be/5leb1k4LUA0

Part 2

https://youtu.be/KrtjzzyB9g8