LAPD to ban
metal flashlights
OK...is it me, or is this the stupidest thing you've ever heard? Isn't the issue that cops are beating people on the head, not what they doing it with?
Rather than banning metal flashlights, how about stopping the cops from beating people?
That's a lot like the ban against chewing gum in Singapore. They ban gum because people throw it on the ground. Doesn't it make more sense to ban throwing it on the ground?
Spiff - your insight is correct and your analogy is apt.
However, if you take the mechanism of abuse away from people, the problem is easier to manage. Telling a cop to stop hitting people on the head might not stop him from doing it (especially if he's got a prior disposition to do so). In fact, most people don't need to be told not to abuse others. The Singapore analogy definitely highlights the fact that those in charge, (while not ignoring the issue), are not addressing it head on either....
I think that this ban can also be compared to a ban on assault rifles. No, people shouldn't need to be told not to take an uzi into a mini-mall. But some people are crazy enough (we'll call it pre-disposed) to do just that. One solution - tell people not to do it, and then when they break the law, clean up the mess (and mourn the dead while you're at it). The second solution is to take the assault rifle out of the hands of the crazed individual. While this abridges some freedoms and potentially some rights that he may have, you've effectively eliminated the problem of the uzi/mini mall affair... I'm sure that the relatives and loved ones of the victims of our mini mall melee would prefer the latter solution.
Ultimately, this doesn't address the issue head on. If a guy is crzed enough, he'll find another tool to kill a bunch of people at the mini mall if he is that determined, just like a cop will find something else to beat criminals (and innocents) over the head with. But, if you make the cops or the lunatics jump through a few more hoops, you might jar some sense into these people.
So, while I agree with you in regard to the absurdity of removing metal flashlights from policemen's hands while not directly addressing the issue that maybe we should get some anger management counselers on the scene - the tools and methods that they are implementing cut to the chase. They provide a profolactic solution to a problem which cannot be solved without great cost, the expenditure of great energy and (very likely) the re-ordering of certain people's mindsets (not an easy task).
Anyway, rant over. Interesting catch.
i own 2 Mag-lites.. very functional items.
i agree with both of ya'll.. goes back to the same ole question.. is it the gun that kills, or the person firing it??
food for thought!!
bigjohn
Excellent point. I guess the issue that bugs me isn't so much that they're taking away the big MagLites, but that they're not going after the abusive cops. The next time a cop beats the crap out of somebody who's clearly been subdued already, they need to lock him/her up and throw away the key. Then the next cop might think twice before venting their frustration out on someone's head.
Spiff - without a doubt, the powers that be need to punish those cops who act inappropriately. However, putting a guy in jail doesn't undo the fact that some poor schmo just got his head caved in by a maniac with a badge and an 8 pound flashlight.
To reiterate my point: if you take the flashlight out of his hands, maybe he won't hit at all. Maybe he'll hit with something less violent, or maybe he'll have to go look for something violent to hit him with, and in the meantime, come to his senses. In these last three scenarios, the victim is better off.
In truth, the law is trying to PROTECT victims as a first level of defense. As a second level of deterrence, the law will PUNISH the wrongdoing cop. If PROTECTION is your main goal, and PUNISHMENT doesn't serve to protect, only deter, then the primary goal has failed.
No, cops shouldn't hit people on the head. But they do. If it were me, I'd rather be hit on the head by something softer and lighter, AND see the cop get punished rather than take my licks with a heavy-weight flashlight, and revel from my hospital bed about the fact that some low-life cop is being reprimanded or jailed.
Now, hold on just a darn minute here.
I object to the generalization that most/all of the people getting bonked by police flashlights are "victims" who don't deserve it. I also object to asking police officers to keep the peace without giving them the tools to do so.
How many of you would actually be willing to do field police work in return for the compensation offered? You deal with the absolute dregs of society on a daily basis while putting your life on the line in return for a middle-class existence.
OF COURSE police officers should not be allowed to brutalize innocent people. The penalty for doing so should be many times what it would be for an ordinary citizen.
But taking away flashilights because they have the potential to be used inappropriately does not make me feel safer, and does not help these public servants do their important jobs.
When flashlights are outlawed, only criminals will have flashlights.
Ummmm....can't the police pistol whip someone as easily as they could use their flashlights?
They've also got those handy wooden night sticks. That's part of the reason I thought taking the flashlights seemed foolish.
In reply to:
is it the gun that kills, or the person firing it??
Answer: The person uses the gun to kill, ie both of them.
Take the gun away and at the very least its slightly less likely that person will be able to kill.
No I'm not saying take all guns away, but I am for gun control.... and yes I'm a conservative.
Chris Rock had a better solution: No gun control, but charge ridiculous amounts of money for ammo. Like $500 per bullet.
In reply to:
and yes I'm a conservative
REALLY?? i hadn't figured that out yet!!
as a member of the NRA, they want me to be against ANY and EVERY form of gun control, but i aint. i dont need, nor does anyone else need, these assault and uzi type guns. they serve no functional purpose. and unless the govt does something here pretty quick, the assault weapon ban is fixing to run out in septenber. but, i do believe that i have the right to have handguns and game rifles with no sort of restrictions.
bigjohn
Yes, cops can still pistol whip people and can still use their billy clubs. But police officers have to file reports each time their guns are drawn (I'd love to see that report: 23:14 hours, pistol withdrawn from holster; suspect detained through use of pistol "whip" technique...).
Also, billy clubs are actually MADE to club people with. That is their purpose. Guns are made to threaten and inflict harm or defend if necessary. These tools are essential to protect the safety and to maintain the authority that police officers have.
Guns have to be metal (ceramics notwithstanding). They have to contain bullets. Billy clubs have to be appropriately "billy-club-ish." Flashlights, on the other hand, don't have to be metal and are meant to do anything more that cast light. If plastic can do the same thing, then why is this such an issue, especially if it takes another means of abuse out of the hands of bad cops without hindering the ability of good cops to use the flashlight for what it is meant for.
As I said in my first post, you aren't going to eradicate abuse by creating penalties - in all likelihood, these cops probably believe that they are above the law in this respect. Second, you aren't going to eradicate abuse through other means (pistol whipping) without a paradigm shift in the mind-set of abusive cops. Therefore, why not take some temptation away from those abusive cops by replacing their metal flashlights with plastic ones? If it leads to one less beating without any loss of reliable performance by the flashlight, then it is an undeniably good thing.
If cops begin pistol whipping or billy-clubbing people instead, then the problem will only have shifted. But this shift is indicative (in my mind) of the fact that the behavior CANNOT be regulated or eradicated (i.e. these abusers are going to find something with which to beat people, no matter what). I don't know what the next step is (b/c you can't take guns out of cops hands, and there probably is no good substitue for a billy club - except mace or tasers), but it seems that taking huge, heavy metal flashlights is a step in the right direction, if only a small one.
I was thinking about this one, and it seems to me that the cop will have to swing the billy club harder in order to do the same amount of damage. I mean, it's wood, not a 6 D cell-containing-metal flashlight. Sure, you can kill someone with it. But not as easily.
In reply to:
Chris Rock had a better solution: No gun control, but charge ridiculous amounts of money for ammo. Like $500 per bullet
So you can have lots of gun owners with absolutely no shooting experience? That is not a good solution. One of the problems with gun ownership is that people who own them don't know enough about them.
I have a concealed carry permit, and I own 4 handguns. I frequently go into a part of the city that is adjacent to a very high crime area, and I also frequently carry lots of money. I feel strongly that I have the right to defend myself using any means possible if I am made the victim of, or am about to be the victim of, a violent crime.
I have no problem with there being some kind of educational requirement and background check before being allowed to carry a firearm. Statistics show that wherever concealed carry laws are enacted, violent crime rates go down. The kind of people who are going to apply for a permit, take 8 hours of instruction, pay a fee, and submit to a beckground check are extremely unlikely to cause a problem.
We require people to get a license before driving a car, so why not require one in order to operate a firearm? You would have to take an approved class, and a test, as well as a background check before you could get your license, and you could just show yur license to the vendor in order to purchase a weapon. I know the NRA would say that that is the first step toward gun confiscation, but to me it makes good sense.
Mark
Hope that people "licensed" to have guns, we'll
behave better then me licensed to drive my "Diablo"
I have a friend who has a friend who's theory is that the government won't try to take away our guns, they'll just stop allowing bullets to be sold to the public. He actually buys some bullets with every paycheck, vacuum seals them and stores them for future use. It's an interesting theory.
The whole gun ban thing is pretty moronic anyway - like criminals care if it's illegal to have a gun. We just need to start shooting more criminals.
Pete
wow - that'll liven up this thread a bit, won't it?
And this friend who is stockpiling bullets - wouldn't it make more sense just to sve up your money, then buy a whole bunch of bullets all at once? You could save time and vacuum bags that way, I'd suspect. What some people will do in response to conspiracy theories astounds me.
I personally think a little healthy paranoia is probably a good thing but, your friend's friend's actions seem a bit over the top. I'm not a gun owner, but isn't it reasonably easy to make ammuntion? If so, how would the government stop you from doing that when they can't stop folks from cooking up some crystal meth?
jr
I know jack about guns except what I read in Harry Turtledove novels, but I think that modern ammo is a bit more complex. If you're just using slugs or shotgun shells, I think it would be easy. But jacketed armor piercing ammo would be a bit more difficult.
WOW, all right..
guns, armor piercing ammo, and crystal meth!!!
now we are gettin somewhere
bigjohn
Hehe. I'm having a flashback to my childhood in small town Iowa!
jr
i just saw some show the other night talkin bout how bad the meth prob is out in rural america.. iowa, ohio, indiana, illinois, n & s dakota, nebraska, and wisconsin..
weird.. ya normally just think of farming and religion when i think about that part of the country.. never figured meth to be a prob out there..
oh yea, and i just watched some dvd on a band called slipknot.. real heavy, thrash kinda metal music.. i kinda liked it.. anyway, some one told me they were from iowa also?? a bunch of freaky dudes!!
bigjohn
you gotter' BigJohn, they're from Iowa. The most amazing thing about them is that 2 of the members of Slipknot did some fantastic work with a band called Stone Sour (both before and after Slipknot made it big). Check out the song Bother - has a great early-grunge/ballad sound to it.
sid- thanks for the stone sour bite.. i will go check them out..
i cant say that i liked everything that i heard from slipknot, some it was just too fast and aggressive for me.. but as a whole, i thought it was pretty good, in a different kind of way.
i cant say i am into the whole dark, creepshow type image.. but hey, everyone thought KISS was freaky when they first came out also!!
bigjohn
Stone Sour is certainly nothing like the freak-show that is Slipknot, that I can assure you. I actually seem to recall some big uproar, whether from fans or the band, when the 2 members were going to perform in Stone Sour without their masks on. Maybe I just imaginged that story too.
Damn hi-jackers!
The cops have a difficult job to do. Sometimes they get emotionally overwrought and there is the loyalty to each other which is both a problem and a plus, but by and large they are good people. The pieces of crap which they are shown beating certainly aren't.
The knee-jerk liberal reaction to identify with the criminal is lame. I taught school in the California Youth Authority for 5 years and have lots of first hand experience dealing with criminals, albeit in the 15-25 year old range. They don't need any help from us to make their jobs as criminals any easier or less painful.
.
agreed, i hate those hi-jackers also..
for real, i agree with what you are saying. it always seems that a whole police force is attacked because of the actions a of a few bad cops.. or maybe a few good cops, that just got caught up in the action. the TV, and paper is only gonna cover the story that they can make controversial.
if a cop does bad, you are gonna hear everything about him.. but you are hardly ever gonna hear about the cop who arrests drunk drivers, and gets guns off the streets, and helps kids avoid drugs, and solves crimes, and chases down burglers, etc.. you will never hear about that guy til he retires, then he might get a 4 sentence paragraph in the public news section of the paper?? where is the justice in that!!??
bigjohn
But BigWill,
Aren't the cops who are beating people up without a justifiable reason criminals in their own right?
I am not trying to associate with criminals. To the contrary, I think that cops need to use force and shoudl be authorized by law to do just that in appropraite circumstances. I also abhore the media that paints the whoel police force as corrupt or as racist or as abusers because of a couple of bad apples.
Instead of associating with criminals, try to associate with victims. What about the guy who is in fact innocent? (And I don't care how often this happens - just as long as it a single innocent person get beaten, this argument holds true). In relating to him, I think that if avoiding the unjustified abuse of innocents is stopped, deterred, reduced, anything - it is a good thing. If that means taking metal clubs that shine light from people's hands, then so be it. Their plastic ones will illuminate just as well as the metal ones.
Furthermore, I don't believe that this hampers, in any way, a police officers ability to subdue an offender who justifiably requires a beating. That's what tazers, billy clubs, pepper spary and bullets are for.
Who cares about their damn flashlights? I'm sure the cops couldn't care less whether they carry Mag-Lites or rubberized Chinese flashlights. That whole thing is a shallow attempt to placate the black community.
"Aren't the cops who are beating people up without a justifiable reason criminals in their own right?"
It is obvious you haven't spent much time with hardcore criminals. To equate the career criminals with the cops who "lose it" after a high speed pursuit that endangers the lives of innocent bystanders is silly. You can argue that point if you like, but I know you know better.
i think if they switch to plastic flashlights it would cost the taxpayers more money.a plastic one would not hold up as well when dishing out a beating,and to keep replacing them could get expensive
re-hijack
I live in Nebraska, I can say we do hear about meth labs getting busted somewhat often around here and in Iowa. But I really don't know anyone that DOES meth.
Oh ya those Iowan's are strange folk too.
That's a funny clip. Thanks for the link.
I think every state should outlaw big metal flashlights. Flashlight manufacturers are constantly turning out bigger and more powerful Big Metal Flashlights. Soon, gang members will outshine our poor overworked law enforcement officers. I understand there are even semi-automatic BMFs that can fire a beam EVERY time the button is pressed. Some video game entusiasts have reported hundreds of beams per minute! Sad and shocking news.
Some hope on the horizon, though. Congressman Ben "Just Say No To Vaseline" Dover wants to emulate the European Union and ban any and all electrically generated lights. He also wants to issue reflective eyeglasses or "shades" to our dedicated policeman. Let's hear it for the Congressman!
I'm TitaniumMan and I approve this post.
Who is TitaniumMan? The alter-ego of a forum member who knows how to spell?
Flashlights!
What an interesting topic!
As interested as everyone here is about HT and Electronics, yall should check out this place:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php
You would not believe the wonderful world that exists beyone MAG!
There have been several threads over there (you can guess) about this subject.
My goodness! This thread is spawning newbies faster than you can say "fresh meat"
ROTFLMAO, that candlepower site IS a forum dedicated to flashlights. And it appears to be pretty active. Go figure.
I wonder if over in the flashlight forum, people are going "are you kidding me? People are talking about speakers?" while we do this same over here.
It's like an alternate universe.