http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167791,00.html
Somehow I'd like to discuss this issue
constructively. That being how many American's feel the rest of the world always expects us to give but that we never receive anything when times are tough for us (Katrina). I'm pretty much in the boat agreeing with the article above.
I was thinking the very same thing last night watching some of the coverage on New Orleans. Wow ! I think this might be the first time I have ever agreed with something I've heard on Fox.
oz
Dead Center on Target...
{Sound of crickets chirping}
WhatFurrer
Yes, interesting indeed. One point that probably should be made is that we are, as the aricle states, in fact a wealthy country; well, at least about two thirds of us are. And guess what group a lot, maybe most, of the people who are suffering the most fall under? And when I say "suffering" I don't mean loss of profits, I mean their personal lives and wellfare. I see no diference between a tsunami sufferer and a hurricane victim if they both come from the same economic classification. Their lives are at the same state of frailty and they are just as deserving of the entire Worlds attention.
There is a lot of debate in Canada about this. In theory we have offered a whole whack of support and been told "not yet" -- most people up here feel we should be heading down anyways even if we are not wanted, although part of the reason is that we don't trust our governments to tell us the truth about ANYTHING any more...
EDIT - For the record, I do feel this is as big a disaster (in the making at least; the real problems haven't started yet) as any in the world, and every bit as deserving of support. There over 500,000 homeless people in one place and they are going to need a huge amount of rushed in infrastructure to stay healthy.
On the lighter side, part of the problem is that all us other countries rely on USAF transport planes to move our search & rescue stuff around unless we charter from the Russians
The link doesn't seem to be working anymore. A new article took it's place, and they haven't updated the archive link. I think from your original message I have a pretty good idea of what the article would say though. Although help from elsewhere would be nice, I think the part about us being a wealthy country is correct. The 3rd world countries get the help during disasters, but the 1st world ones are expected to fend for themselves for the most part. That's just the way it works.
I also find it staggering that New Orleans will be pretty much closed for 3 months.
Here's the link again...It's called "The Silence is Deafening..."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168045,00.html
Zarak is correct although there are a number of 1st World Countries the US has helped out in the past...
I still hear only crickets...
WhatFurrer
I can't agree with everything in this article.
Our (Canadian) news stations this morning were advising people to contact the Red Cross and make cash donations. Food and clothing are not needed at this time there is no infrastructure to handle it. Hydro teams may go to assist and I believe some offers have already been made.
I can state for a fact that Canadians have already donated money to the cause. As much as Fox would like to believe otherwise; you are not alone on this one.
I believe that Fox is not referring to any countries in the North American hemisphere...
As the news channels have stated, disasters like this one bring out the best and the worst in people.
I know that as I have friends who live in New Orleans and love visiting the city as well as the Gulf Coast, I truly appreciate the support our Canadian neighbors to the north are supplying...
Thank you.
WhatFurrer
World support would certainly be a huge help but I do feel that right now is a great time for our own U.S. citizens that generally distance themselves from these sorts of disasters via CNN, ABC, Fox or whoever to step up to the plate and contribrute a little something, it will go a long way.
I agree with you all the way Rick.We do have to do something here.I will be making a donation to the Red Cross tonight.It may not be huge but if an few hundred thousand like us do the same thing it will certainly help out some.I called Gulfport Ms. home for 3 years when I was in the Navy.It's the least I can do to try and help.
The kids came home from school this afternoon with the information that the school is beginning to take donations for disaster relief assistance.
I imagine a lot of other parents around the country heard similar accountings from their childrens' schools.
We got our local (Burlington ON) paper tonight and there was an article on the relief efforts.
please ignore the "In reply to:", the following is a quote:
In reply to:
American Red Cross officials have advised it will be about two weeks before they know what help is needed, said the organization's district branch manager for Halton.
"People are reacting to the TV coverage, which keeps you up-to-the-minute and makes you aware of it," said Holm.
Holm said Burlington has a top Red Cross team that helped out following last year's tsunami disaster and the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.
The local Salvation Army's director of public relations and development said the organization's Ontario branches have emergency and community response vehicles available.
"We have at least six vehicles we'll be able to move in. I would not be surprised to see that teams will be deployed," said Major Byron Jacobs, who represents the Burlington, Hamilton and Niagara regions. "Our own teams will be organized and we're waiting for the appropriate moments to move in."
Local Salvation Army workers also helped after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Because the hurricane damage represents a long-term rebuilding situation, Jacobs expects they'll be called in again. He said there have been inquiries about donations and advised calling local Salvation Army branches at 905-637-3894 or 905-521-1660.
Burlington Hydro's President David Collie said the utility would be available to provide help if called upon.
Apparently Hydro One (Ontario's largest electricity delivery company) has also offered aid.
I imagine these offers of help are very widespread all across Canada. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse to death but I do want those of you south of the border to know that behind the scenes there are a lot of things going on.
Wayne, the author of the ariticle allows for he fact that efforts on our behalf may be underway of which he was unaware. It comes as no surprise that Canadians everywhere would want to help. Though I am safe, high, and dry, I'm grateful for the concern and efforts of our Northern friends for our situation. Thank you, all.
Ditto....as a Floridian within storm surge distance from the sea. Thanx for the "concern and efforts".....it could just as easily have been us.
'Though I am safe, high, and dry, I'm grateful for the concern and efforts of our Northern friends for our situation. Thank you, all.'
I'll second Jack's comments. Thanks.
I'll third that.
Good folks are good folks no mater where they call home.
http://www.irw.org/katrina/
Islamic Relief are calling for donations, and I know that there is a lot of sympathy for the Victims. As an Arab and a Muslim, I do distinguish between the actions of a government and personal tragedy to ordinary people. I do not agree with the actions of the American government, but I do not hate Americans. Human suffering is the same regardless of ideology and skin colour.
very cool. I know there are parts of the world the would say, we're getting our just desserts, but it's good to know that you can't stereotype everyone.
I agree with your general statement about the US giving but not receiving. While it isn't 100% true in all cases, the amount outgoing is way more than the amount incoming (unless you talking about illegal aliens entering the country and getting healthcare and governement financial support, but that is a different story). I am not talking just about money, but people support... People to help clean up, aid the sick and injured, rebuild. There will be some, and those people will probably get a few minutes in the spotlight because they will be so few that the reporters will be able to single them out pretty easily.
They won't be doing it for the publicity, they will be the true humanitarians. But why not more? Why won't other countries send help? I don't know. While not everyone in the world agrees with the United States' government, we are all still people.
I couldn't go and help out after the tsunami, but I gave money to groups that could. We are not weathly. I have a wife and 2 kids with just me working. Sure, compared to many other countries everyone on this forum would be considered weathly, but we don't have funds to go out to eat, our cars are getting pretty old, we don't wear the latest fashions, go out for concerts, pro-sporting events, or other larger ticket events. We just can afford to. But we can afford to give. Even my 11 year old daughter, who gets no allowance found that she could dig up $20 in spare change that she had been saving for years to donate to help the tsunami. Now that it is here in our own "back yard," I feel that we will have to try to come up with even more to cover the lack of support that we won't get from other countries.
If you are from another country, or even the US, and you don't give, that is your right. I will not think any worse of you as it would be obvious that you have your own life emergencies and situations that don't allow for you to give. I've been there myself in the past. But if you can give anything, I am sure that there will be a whole group of organizations that will come forth that you can easily donate money to, no matter what currency you use.
I have read that the UN and at least 12 countries are offering support. There has also been donations from private citizens of other countries. It may just be a matter of getting the word out. With so many hurricanes this year, it may be that the foreign news orgs didn't pick up how bad it was. But I don't know.
I'm pretty shocked by the devastation, myself. It's hard to imagine, believe, or comprehend. My heart goes out to all those affected.
The one thing I had to add from 10 seconds of exposure to CNN while picking up my extra house key from my parents'... one email sent into CNN sounded a bit like this discussion, but was a thumb in the eye to all other countries... went something like "Why aren't the Dutch here? They're supposed to be so good at building dikes... and the Bush family's Saudi buddies, we pulled their a**es out of the fire enough times, and the French, this city used to belong to them - oh, wait, they're French..."
Within that 10 second period I went from "oh, hell... what a mess" to "Self-righteous ******s, let 'em swim"... then you realize that that email wasn't sent by someone affected, but by some grizzled backwoods honeydipper with a Trans-Am with a big Amurican' eagle on 'er.
Our provincial hydro company (last I'd heard this afternoon) was told to hold off on support.
Bren R.
>>With so many hurricanes this year, it may be that the foreign news orgs didn't pick up how bad it was. But I don't know.
I think that is part of the problem. We all heard that Katrina shifted course at the last minute, heaved a huge sigh of relief, and stopped worrying. It was at least a day before I realized that very bad things had happened in New Orleans despite the course change.
I had the same thing happen to me.
When the winds were 185MPH, I sat up and took notice. When the winds were decreasing, the pressure was rising, New Orleans was going to be on the west side of the storm... I stopped paying as much attention. Heck, even the news the night of the storm said that N.O. "dodged a bullet". It wasn't until the next day and the day after that when I realized the severity of things.
And, quite frankly, I still haven't wrapped my head around how many people will be displaced for so many months or permenantly.
there is a contingent of Canadian Red Cross workers heading down very soon that I am aware of. My gf's cousin is a RC worker (911 operator) in Brandon and is due to ship out at some point next week, I believe.
I would have to agree with the last couple of comments that when I heard the "good" news that the storm was downgraded and weakening, I tuned out a bit. I didn't realize how severe it was until we started receiving emails on how it was affecting my industry. Word is that the port of NO may not return to normal operations for months. As somewhere between 50 & 60% of all US grain shipments go through the port of NOLA, Katrina will have a significant impact on everything Ag in North America. Farmers as far away as Minnesota will be severely affected.
The loss of life is staggering. My sympathies to those who have lost family & friends.
I'm appalled that any news organization can focus on "who's helping us?" right now. That is help down the road and many countries will provide it. The issue right now are those people. They need food, water, medicine, assistance, leadership, and military protection/organization NOW. Not tomorrow, not this weekend. NOW. I'm appalled at the slow reaction and I'm appalled at the lack of leadership. I'm appalled at the bureaucratic mess that has led to inaction that is costing people's lives.
It's quite clear people have congregated to certain areas. What is so difficult about flying supplies and military personnel into these areas by helicopter? Our Homeland Security Chief Michael "Jerkoff" said today they had placed supplies in the are before the hurricane. Well, if they are already in the vicinity, where are they? My governor, Ed Rendall, offered 2,500 national guard. Well Ed, what took you so long and geez, don't ya think ya could offer more?
Get this: I have a friend in the national guard. I talked to him yesterday. I thought he would be unavailable and on "flood duty". He tells me they are only asking for volunteers right now. WTF? WTF is wrong with this country?
Michael "Jerkoff's" news conference today was a CYA. Now is not the time for CYA. He actually said he knows what it is like to stand on a roof, thirsty, hungry, with a sign, pleading for help. That is absurd. They don't even give a crap about those people and it's evidence by the lack of action. ho hum. help is on the way.
The quote below was pulled from a Jamaican (of which I am a citizen) local newspaper. Don't think you are alone on this.
"Jamaica was among the nations offering what help they could. But the Kingston embassy, while stating its appreciation for the support, politely declined the offers, saying in a statement: 'The United States Government is not yet requesting international assistance at this time.'
The embassy suggested, however, that persons and organisations wishing to help may still contact the US Federal Emergency Management Agency, www.fema.gov, coordinator of the recovery efforts."
see full article here
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050901T000000-0500_87388_OBS_THOUSANDS_FEARED_DEAD__NEW_ORLEANS_TO_BE_ABANDONED.asp
The most unfortunate fact that exists through this whole mess, and which is one of the primary reasons that so many families lost their lives along with their homes is the bad timing of the storm.
Many of the people in the US are not wealthy.
No, Really.
A lot of folks actually can't afford to fill up the gas tanks on their cars and make a run for safety when gas is twenty bucks for six gallons. Heck, many of them can barely afford to feed their kids and pay the rent and keep car insurance and replace car sensors every couple months cause our cars are now so frugal and clean that they get confused and won't run when a signal gets lost, and the gas milage drops to 6MPG.
So, here it is the end of the month, a storm is coming, the money has run out and there's barely enough gas in the car to get to work, let alone Texas.
The alternative is to ride it out....
......surfs up!!
Riffman ... A few thoughts :
1. Take a valium, have a drink, work out ... ANYTHING to calm your nerves.
(edited for smiley face)
2. There is a HUGE relief effort already underway. However, rescue helicopters are being shot at, as are law enforcement personell on foot. That makes helping a little more difficult.
3. There is a 90,000 square mile area affected. Just finding everyone will be difficult.
4. People were warned to evacuate the city. Then they were ordered to. Thousands ignored these warnings.
5. And "Jerkoff?" ... Was THAT necessary ?
My prediction is that, when everything settles, The U.S. will have done 90+ % of the clean up and financial support. That is OK. We can handle it.
That being said, to those countries who have and will offer support, THANKS !
We may take every opportunity we can to complain about the price of gas; and yes, it is an inconvenience and sometimes for some of us a sacrifice. But at least to those of us that are still alive through this, while it may make life more complicated, at least it isn't life threatning.
Yes. Necessary. Unless you think its perfectly normal for a high ranking gov official to tell you he knows what it is like to die of thirst on a rooftop in 95 degree weather.
I also don't blame low income people for not having left. Even if they could, it still shouldn't be an issue. They need help.
Riffman, fine. Let's have him shot. Afterall, He DID cause this tragedy.
Actually, I'm with Riffman on this. Unless there is a massive "stealth" relief effort and everyone being relieved is also being hidden away from cameras, the response does seem oddly slow. I'm sure the media is getting things wrong a bit, but the bottom line seems to be that we have about a half million displaced people, in a very hot part of the country, with little or no drinking water, and days are going by. Everyone on the radio here is babbling about food and rebuilding, but after 2-3 days without water people are going to start dying in larger numbers... I'm darned close to loading the Jeep up with a few hundred gallons of water and driving down there myself.
This was one of the big problems after the tsunami as well... lots of water around, but once you mix a few hundred million gallons of sea water in you can't drink the stuff any more.
I really hope I am being too negative on this...
Foreign countries HAVE offered their assistance, but the US gov't has
has advised most of them to wait until the situation is more under control. This "we're so effin' generous with our aid, so why isn't the world as generous when something happens to US?" attitude revolts me.
The world DOES care. Open your eyes.
The saddest thing about this disaster is that the devistation was entirely predictable --
and in fact had been predicted years in advance -- and not enough was done to plan for or mitigate that eventual disaster. You can blame our corporate-like political system which rewards short-term changes far more than long-term foresight for this. Politicians play the odds. "It's not going to happen during MY term." It's simply not a priority to think about future generations.
OK, enough ranting.
Oops, I disagree......
It's not ranting when stating the apparent truth followed by well formulated opinions.
In only two paragraphs
Peter, It was a fascinating read. My only problem with this is that the development started in 1879. The people of that area have profited for 126 years from this development.
Why is it the duty of people who live over 1000 miles away to be responsible to pay for New Orleans ? I am not talking the current relief effort, either. I am talking about what the populace of New Orleans and Louisana has done for over a century.
There will be more Monday morning Quarterbacking going on about this, which is pretty easy to do.
As for the response being done, There will be 40,000 National Guard troops on the scene by the weekend. The Navy is getting ships there ASAP. There are 1000's of volunteers driving/flying/boating relief, some being greeted with gunfire.
As for the Monday morning QB's, We know that the mayor of New Orleans warned people to leave on Saturday and ordered them to leave on Sunday.
Knowing what they know now, How many people in New Orleans would have left when first told to on Saturday ?
How many lives would have been saved had people listened to the warnings 48 hours before the Hurricane hit ?
Totally agree with Peter on what he said.
And I think this just another case of FoxNews getting it ALL WRONG YET AGAIN! All this reporter (hack if you will) would need to do is search the freaking news feeds coming from all over the world to notice other countries are sending condolences and support. How do people still watch/read this drivel from a 3rd rate news source?
That's my rant for the day.
In reply to:
How do people still watch/read this drivel from a 3rd rate news source?
Some of us don't.
>>As for the Monday morning QB's, We know that the mayor of New Orleans warned people to leave on Saturday and ordered them to leave on Sunday.
Actually those are the people I am talking about. I look around Toronto and wonder what would happen if more than 1/2 million people (rich and poor) suddenly had to leave. I have 2 cars, friends in towns around the city, supplies and cash to make the trip... and you can be darned sure the cars would be leaving loaded with all the people I could carry... but I also know a lot of people who would have nowhere to go, no way to get out of the city, no money to spend once they arrived, and don't know enough people to be sure anyone would care about them as everyone was leaving town.
bridgman - what would you do if you were given the role of being in charge of this entire situation ? How would you have solved this problem ?
In reply to:
How do people still watch/read this drivel from a 3rd rate news source?
I don't, I quit watching CNN years ago.
Heh quite clever Craigsub...
Weren't there stories back during the 1st Gulf War that our enemies were using CNN for most of their intelligence since it was so accurate? I don't think FoxNews will EVER be accused of accuracy.
Really, all this article does is breed animosity and alienate us from the rest of the world. All the author simply had to do was some research (he's a NEWS ANCHOR) and would have found his article was flat-out wrong. Irresponsilbe news anchors/networks really piss me. Say what you want about CNN but I now realize why FoxNews has such a poor reputation as a news source. Inaccurate, one-sided, and sometimes wrong (sure other networks share these traits but FoxNews is clearly the best perpetrator).
You are entitled to your opinion. But, try to be a little intellectual in your remarks. I prefer Fox to CNN, but you don't see me resorting to the name calling.
Maybe its me but perhaps you should follow your own advice.
Where have I resorted to name calling? Was it when I called a news anchor irresponsible when he has clearly been proven wrong by simple fact checks?
Hashts - "hack", "drivel" and "third-rate" fall under name calling. Calling someone a "hack" is not an intellectual argument. It is resorting to insults.
>>bridgman - what would you do if you were given the role of being in charge of this entire situation ? How would you have solved this problem ?
Fair question. First priority would be making sure there were available drinking water supplies for everyone who did evacuate. There are a few big military bases within a days drive of the area; don't know for sure but I imagine a fair amount of water purification equipment could be hauled down in less than a day. There is lots of water, it just isn't drinkable. Get the water as close to the city outskirts as possible. Give Canada a go-ahead for the DART team, and help transport the water purification equipment down if necessary.
Rescue seems to be happening reasonably well, except the regular rescue teams aren't trained to work in a hostile environment (and shouldn't have to be !!). I don't know if there are any Guard units equipped to handle combat rescue but getting even a couple of boats and copters in the area loaded for bear would go a long way to making the looters more polite.
After that, I think everything can proceed as it is -- they just need to get LOTS of water in there quickly and knock off the armed folks who are interfering with rescue and relief efforts. Are these just looters and crochety old coots or do you think there is something worse going on ?
Not a bad response. If you think about it, rescue workers being shot at is pretty pathetic. As for getting water to those who need it, I agree. So do 40,000 National Guardsman headed that direction.
And, I know this is not politically correct, but the majority of those stuck there elected to "ride it out". I was listening to a Saturday talk radio show on my way back from a golf tournament, and they were interviewing people in New Orleans, and literally every person interviewed was looking forward to this as a party.
I was actually yelling at the radio about these people, because the news reports were, at that point, predicting a category 5 storm.
Not to interrupt, but had to share this story. One of our coworkers' 16-year-old daughter announced today that she was heading down to New Orleans to help out (from Montreal). Her mother looked at her and said "You're prepared to sleep on a cot in the Houston Astrodome"? And she said "Oh no, we're there to help. I'm sure they'll put us up in a nice hotel."
Even just at my age I miss being that young!
In reply to:
And I think this just another case of FoxNews getting it ALL WRONG YET AGAIN! All this reporter (hack if you will) would need to do is search the freaking news feeds coming from all over the world to notice other countries are sending condolences and support. How do people still watch/read this drivel from a 3rd rate news source?
Excerpts from PM's link "proving" the world's commitment:
"Countries from Russia to Venezuela offered assistance for victims of Hurricane Katrina yesterday but said they will wait to hear from the United States what is needed before they send the aid." ... No specific aid, just a "we will help if you ask".
and
"Chinese President Hu Jintao expressed his "belief that the American people will definitely overcome the natural disaster and rebuild their beautiful homeland."
In contrast, Islamic extremists found a cause for celebration, giving the storm the military rank "private" and suggesting in Internet chatter that Katrina had joined their jihad, or holy war. They also prayed that oil prices hit $100 a barrel this year."
Finally -
" U.S. officials and foreign diplomats said the widely shared sense is that as the world's richest country, the United States can cope with the aftermath of natural disasters and does not need help.
They said that was the reason for the lack of specific offers, although the European Union -- as well as Britain, Germany and other individual members -- informed President Bush and the governors of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama that they are ready to help with whatever is necessary.
"The United States has very good infrastructure and capabilities, so we'll wait for them to ask for concrete assistance," said Martina Nibbeling-Wriessnig, spokeswoman for the German Embassy. "You don't want to send in several helicopters and have only one landing space."
Russian President Vladimir Putin also said in a letter to Mr. Bush that his government "is prepared to provide help if requested."
The most concrete offer came from Venezuela, which offered to send fuel and humanitarian aid to victims, despite otherwise strained relations with the United States. "
The Chavez offer was made through Jesse Jackson, and was geared to the "oppressed" living here, and this was planned BEFORE Katrina - Chavez originally said he wanted to send cheap oil and gas to our poor, strictly as a political move.
If one reads all the wording from various sources, the response has been tepid. My primary difference with Mr. Cavuto is I would have said nothing. Other than Canada, and possibly England, I don't think much will happen in the way of aid.
By the way, My wife and I are personally over $11K so far in contributions.
We both believe in helping.
We are both also disgusted with all the finger pointing.
.
Amie - That was priceless.
>>and literally every person interviewed was looking forward to this as a party.
Yeah, I don't have a good answer for those people. I'm a bit of a closet storm chaser myself so it's not impossible that I would have joined them. Not in New Orleans though (I understand the concept of being in a big hole that is about to fill up with ocean) but I actually did think about heading down to Florida a few years ago. Stupid, I know...
>>And she said "Oh no, we're there to help. I'm sure they'll put us up in a nice hotel."
I'm still laughing over this one. Thanks, Amie !!
I hope any Axiomites down in that area are ok
I just returned from a week seminar down in Orlando and there was another guy attending that was trying to get in touch with a sister in the Gulfport area.
Just found out my company "The Principal Financial Group" is giving $75,000 to the Red Cross, and also matching any contributions the employees donate. Just wish I could do more for those folks
"Are these just looters and crochety old coots or do you think there is something worse going on ? "
Unfortunately, there is a big problem in New Orleans concerning poverty and gang life. It can get quite violent down there, the poverty is so severe. My wife went to school at Tulane and some of the stories she told me were unbeleivable.
I'm sure they aren't looking at it this way, but does it get to a point where you just say the city is gone and is not worth rebuilding? Get the people out and get them setup somewhere else rather then figuring out what to do with them for a couple of months while attempts to bring back the city are made. How bad does it have to get, if it ever gets to that point, before it makes sense to not rebuild?
I’ve always wonder why hurricane prone southern coastal states doesn’t have better infrastructure to at least withhold cat3 winds. States like Florida , why they keep building houses out o wood? I’m from originally from Puerto Rico, 100% of the housing development is all concrete, wood houses are practically nonexistent. Concrete houses are not the prettiest but they sure can sustain cat5 winds. I’ve been through two hurricanes one cat2, cat4. No big deal throughout the island, you only have to worry about flooding which btw is the most destructive and deadliest aspect of a hurricane.
My prayers to all the victims of Katrina. ...and for the federal agencies: Get your act together!
Jaime
another question for the thinkers among us:
Which is a better use of our tax dollars: rebuilding Iraq or rebuilding New Orleans?
I know where I'd put my tax bucks.....it's a no-brainer
Hey.....I've never been to Mardi Grax,(uh..sp?) and I'm fast runnin' outta time!
Peter, It is not an "either-or" question. The answer is "both". The amount of money geberated by the rebuilding of New Orleans will be staggering, and mostly paid by insurance companies, private companies, etc ...
One area which all states who were hit will likely tap into and hopefully the Feds will follow suit is giving to companies needing to rebuild, and to those looking to expand: Tax Exempt status.
In regards to Iraq, A Freely elected government is in place, as is a constitution. Staying the course will give those people a real opportunity to have a free market driven society, ehich has worked everytime it has been tried.
In 1804, by the way, 28 YEARS after our Declaration, 35% of US citizens wanted to return to British rule.
Freedom is not won, nor understood, in a few years.
I'm guessing that the costs to rebuild New Orleans will be born by us; the taxpayers and survivors.(not everyone pays taxes) The companies will do the job with their own and governments money, tally their costs, add a profit, and pass the final on to us.
A free market driven society dosen't always work, a responsible vigilant popular Government is needed to keep the greed driven marketplace under control to avoid additional depressions, or the situation of transition which is taking place here in the US where a two class society is fast approaching. We're at a one third-two thirds ratio now and the upper two thirds are just about ready to recognize that fact. The bottom one third knows it all too well.
Just like New Orleans, the levies and locks of trade agreements cannot be torn down haphazardly without disasterous consequences occuring down stream.
'I’ve always wonder why hurricane prone southern coastal states doesn’t have better infrastructure to at least withhold cat3 winds. States like Florida , why they keep building houses out o wood?'
I never could figure that one out myself. We live a block and a half from the beach just a few miles north (Vero Beach) where both Frances and Jeanne came ashore last year and almost all of the houses in our neighborhood were built of concrete block except those right on the beach, which most are (were!) built of wood. We didn't lose one shingle during the 120 mph winds, several of the homes in the hood lost shingles and almost everybody lost their pool screen enclosures. Today our neighborhood *almost* looks as though nothing ever happened but take a 3 minute walk down to the beach and there's still pieces of sticks and plumbing poking out of the sand where a wooden house once stood.
I do hope they hurry up and rebuild those things, they make an awesome windbrake for the rest of us.
F107, The Free market style governments ALWAYS work. They have worked everytime. As for government "oversight", and your 1/3rd - 2/3rd theory, it is merely that, a theory. The upper 2/3rds is not a static portion of the populace, nor is the lower 1/3rd.
I grew up on the "wrong side of the tracks", and know all too well what being poor feels like.
It was our free market economy which gave me the opportunity to do better.
I also personally know people who used to be wealthy and are now bankrupt. They stopped working, thinking they were "set for life". I also have several associates who grew up in similar circumstances to my own who are now millionaires. They worked 80 hours per week, took some risks, and built a better life.
As for your "pass the final on to us", perhaps a little economic reality check is in order. If a company does not make a profit, that company will fail. Lose enough companies, and you will have unchecked economic failure.
Throughout history, every country which has taken profit out of the equation has ultimately failed.
Actually, House Speaker Dennis Hassert has actually asked the question of whether or not it is feasible to rebuild the Big Easy. For as long as I can remember, NO has been a mecca of crime and govt. corruption. My wife was telling me how useless the police are out there. My head tells me it is not worth it, but my heart tells me different. I think it merits further debate.
Royce ... That reminds one of the Dennis Quaid flick with Ellen Barkin. (The Big Easy ?) ... every cop was on the take.
It is really sad. N.O. police are looting and some are just quiting on the spot. I was watching NBC News last night and they showed a cop driving through some of the refugee areas in a big SUV. People came over to the car asking for help, he merely kept driving and said "There will be other people coming soon." Typical behavior from what my wife tells me. You can blame the federal government all you want (I don't), but the buck stops with the state and the city of N.O. The state was a mess before this happened
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why any human being would even think that the fact that some people chose to stay is worth mentioning or even an issue here.
Four days later: insufficient supplies dropped at the Convention Center. Horrible. Four days.
People have congregated to certain areas and are not as spread out as one thinks. At least get supplies and waste management to these areas, geez.
On Thursday night it was known this was going to be at least a huge CAT 4 hurrican and so little national guard mobilized beforehand. Absurd.
"Riffman, fine. Let's have him shot. Afterall, He DID cause this tragedy. "
Not very intellectual.
"In 1804, by the way, 28 YEARS after our Declaration, 35% of US citizens wanted to return to British rule. "
Totally inapplicable comparison. Arabs have had theocracy in their culture for a couple thousand years. I believe Iraq is worth a shot but I don't kid myself into thinking it's a done deal.
Riffman, If you cannot understand why people electing NOT to leave is worth mentioning, then I feel sorry for you.
We ALL have responsibility for our own actions, and the majority of people there decided NOT to heed the warnings.
Do I feel for them ? Yes. Do I blame the federal government for this ? No. Absolutely not.
As of Thursday morning, 13,000 National Guard troops were on the scene, less than 72 hours after the hurricane hit.
http://www.ngb.army.mil/news/story.asp?id=1755
In reply to:
Totally inapplicable comparison. Arabs have had theocracy in their culture for a couple thousand years. I believe Iraq is worth a shot but I don't kid myself into thinking it's a done deal.
England was a monarchy, and had been for centuries. We managed to scratch out freedom for ourselves from that monarchy.
"For the life of me, I cannot figure out why any human being would even think that the fact that some people chose to stay is worth mentioning or even an issue here"
I disagree. There are reports of people who chose to stay during storm and pass the time getting drunk together like it was some kind of party. I do not feel for those people, they had plenty of warning and the resources to leave. Instead of thinking responsibly, they decided to have a frat party. How many people without the resources now sufffer longer and have to wait for help while we evacuate these idiots?
The truth probably lies somewhere between our two opinions.
There is no question however that things are getting worse for a growing number of the population. Local governments are becomeing increasingly unable to give the support needed by the lower population segments in financial distress.
Perhaps we aren't losing many companies, yet, but we have lost a number of important industries that were able to employ many of the people now in jeopardy. You can't legislate intelligence or even common sense. These people need employment commensurate with their abilities, and far too many of those jobs have been exported to where the wages are more profitable to the companies and the economic climate is more forgiving of clean air and employee safety. It helps the bottom line to be sure, but does very little to help the unemployed and under-employed folks who could't escape the storm due to high gasoline prices in part caused by an increase in fuel demands by exactly those people who are now working in the jobs that many of those storm victims used to occupy.
A healthy Service Economy is great as long as we can all continue washing each others clothes. Sooner or later though, those washing machines are going to start to fail and somebody is going to be required to manufacture new washers and dryers. Will we still have the manufacturing infrastructure and capabilities to do the job?
As far as a profit to those companies helping in New Orleans, and doing business in general; Yes! by all means!! A reasonable profit is good and healthy and I wouldn't have it any other way! I did very well, thank you, as an Engineer in a number of very well run corporations over the years, but over the years I've also seen a number of disturbing changes taking place in North America that dosen't especially bode well for the future of an increasing number of our population.
A number of these changes don't seem to be helping those business which are currently profitable. With a reduced work force buying products, sales will certainly suffer, with increased fuel prices taking a more inflated portion of a families expendiatures, sales will fall more rapidly in tune with the increased costs of manufacture. No surprises there.
When Japan was recovering from the second world war, Japan had, for a while, a very poor reputation as a country which produced shoddy products. They, through good management, hard work and employee involvement managed to bring their reputation up to the point where it was a few years ago; of being able to produce the best(at a price point)product available. Their reputation is beginning to suffer a bit now as they're also being forced onto the export jobs bandwagon to keep up with the rest of the world. The people who are being placed in these new manufacturing positions don't have the drive necessary to produce products of a reasonable standard. Most consumer products, automobiles and like items excluded, produced under these circumstances are without question built down to a profit.
I have no problem with creating new markets and getting the entire world into the modern age, my problem is doing it in such a way that too many people have to suffer the move back to third world status right here in North America.
Am I thinking of just myself? Darn right I am!!
I don't want to see my pensions evaporate, I don't want to see my Social Security fade away, I don't want to see my hard won 401k savings eroded by financial and governmental irresponsibilites. A strong American economy with lots of high wage, high tax paying employees contributing their fair share, is entirely in my benifit.
Last year, on three ocassions, we packed up our speakers and went to my oldest Daughters house(which we thought may have been stronger than ours, it wasen't!)
While we were there for three hurricanes which had winds only as high as 114MPH, we had what could almost be called a near-month-long hurricane party. Had any of those storms even began to approach cat 3 level in our area, we had plans in effect to evacuate in the proper direction once that was determined. If yer gonna party; pick yer storm guests.
We fortunately, had the funds available for a hasty retreat.
F107 - We have seen dire predictions about the economy and business growth, especially manufacturing, for over 100 years. Each generation goes through a period in which they think "it is over".
Smile a bit - We have the highest and employment in the nation's history.
In the past 88 quarters (22 years), we have had 84 quarters of growth, and 4 quarters of retreat, in GDP. Two of those quaters were a direct response to 9/11, and the other two were in response to Iraq invading Kuwait in 1990.
Non residential business investement is growing at 12% ANNUALLY right here in the US of A.
If we could talk over a few beers, you might walk away feeling better about your retirement.
Or ... You might just get a buzz.
Well...Yeah...there are changes goin' on all the time and change can be difficult. I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between our two opinions and is entirely internaly reflected in our attitudes by our personal experiences and expectations.
Things were great in our house until our youngest Daughter gave us her four kids, and sudenly we began to notice others in our situation, and worse, as being much more prevelant that we had previously understood. From that point foreward our take on the general health of the North American economy took on a far more sinister cast.
So I think I'll state it this way: Things are great, but not as great as you think! Things are not so great, but not so not so great as I think.
Lets talk over those few beers now
Uh....let's talk about subs instead
Why would you feel the need to tell me you feel sorry for me? Puzzling.
I'm just curious why all the conservatives continue to mention that people chose to stay in a time where people have DIED. Ok then. They chose to stay. What do you want to do about it? Shoot them? Leave them there?
Monarchy and the history England is very different than the history of Arab countries. You have not convinced me.
Poverty Rate Rises to 12.7 Percent
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: August 31, 2005
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Even with a robust economy that was adding jobs last year, the number of Americans who fell into poverty rose to 37 million -- up 1.1 million from 2003 -- according to Census Bureau figures released Tuesday.
>>For the life of me, I cannot figure out why any human being would even think that the fact that some people chose to stay is worth mentioning or even an issue here.
There are two separate issues, both valid :
1. If more of the people who *could* have left had actually done so, it would have been much easier to look after the ones who Had to stay behind -- and what seems like an inadequate response might have been sufficient. The Superdome could have supported 5000 people for a week (for example) but was quickly overwhelmed with 25000+ people. You have to make some assumptions when you plan... and I think we would agree that at least PART of the problem is people who didn't follow the plan for relatively petty reasons.
Even worse, the people who stayed behind to party (or worse, to loot, or just because of lack of imagination) seem to be the biggest part of the problem now. They are bored, they are fighting, they expect that the government should have taken good care of them even though they did not follow the government's instructions. Bottom line, they are now one of the biggest parts of the problem and are disrupting efforts made for the larger group of people who are just looking to survive.
2. Notwithstanding the above, it does seem as if the actions of both local and federal governments could have been better. While I think we all agree that spending more $$ to beef up the levees before they collapsed would have been the ideal solution, there has been a couple of years to figure out "hey, one day this is all gonna come tumbling down, we'd better have a plan". I don't see signs of a good plan.
A trivial example would be the evacuation of NO -- from all the pictures they only used half the lanes on the highways so traffic jams getting out of the area were much worse than necessary. Didn't seem to be any real preparation in terms of potable water storage etc, even something as simple as building a few reservoirs which were high enough above sea level that even the worst case surge from a cat 5 hurricane would not go over the walls.
BTW, it seems like the main reason for shooting at the rescue workers is to encourage them to "come rescue me first" by bouncing a few bullets off the vehicles, ie "if you don't rescue me first you ain't gonna rescue anyone". I'm not even going to comment on that...
Heh heh - One of my favorite clients told me this in 1990, when it looked like Hussein had a hammerlock on Kuwait, gas went up to over $2 per gallon, and with the Soviet Union looking pretty fragile, people were wondering would they chance peacefully, or go out with a bang ... :
"""When things are rolling, it is not as good as it seems. And times like now are not as bad as it seems."""
I feel for you, because even though it is clear you feel blessed doing the child rearing again, it is also equally clear that it places a stress on your life which you should not have at this point. You should be spoiling your grandchildren, and travelling while enjoying the fruits of your labors.. That being said, I applaud your "goodness" in how you handled your situation.
My dad turns 70 in January, and he looks at me and says "I am glad I don't face the challenges you do". I am sure I will be saying that to my sons in 30 years, too.
At my age ? I look at the world as an opportunity. It takes some serious work, but it is there.
Given the current situation, that they chose to leave is moot, divisive, and agitating. That every conservative I see or know is concentrating their energies on this issue is telling. I'm generally a conservative btw.
People will always stay and they will always need helped. And they deserve it. Any implication otherwise is ridiculous.
I didn't see hundreds of buses ready to take people out of the city nor was it mandatory that they left. I believe this has already been mentioned. So, how many left and how many chose to stay? We have no idea. Which makes this line of discussion even further moot.
Riffman - The evacuation was mandatory as of Sunday morning. Since you say people need help, what have YOU done so far ?
Yes indeed,...when I was your age and doin' all those things that were fun and in fact made a difference to the lives of lots of folks, the world looked like an extreemly rosy place.
Raising a second family with no assistance from the actual parents, and without additional funding from ANY state agency tends to cloud your vision toward the future
But the kids are cool, and fun, and I couldn't imagine just getting up in the morning like some old retured dude on perpetual vacation without gettin' all four of them up, and dressed, and fed, and cleaned up and finally on their way(whew)it CAN be a chore. And, helping all those little ones with all that homework every evening helps to keep one from getting too dull too fast!
But....the fact still remains.....
.....this ain't New Orleans I'm livin' in here!
Life is good, the tunes are good, the movies are fun on a 65" TV. Just what the hey am I complainin' about here?
Thanx for helpin' me get my head back on straight
Rich.
>>I have no problem with creating new markets and getting the entire world into the modern age, my problem is doing it in such a way that too many people have to suffer the move back to third world status right here in North America. Am I thinking of just myself? Darn right I am!! I don't want to see my pensions evaporate, I don't want to see my Social Security fade away, I don't want to see my hard won 401k savings eroded by financial and governmental irresponsibilites. A strong American economy with lots of high wage, high tax paying employees contributing their fair share, is entirely in my benifit.
Not to encourage thread splitting but IMO anyone who already has their savings is going to be OK. My concern is for the kids just coming out of school now who are coming into a more uncertain economic world than we have seen in North America for a while. Don't know about the US but Canada is DEFINITELY heading towards third world status in terms of day to day life. Standards of living are dropping, and our economy is shifting strongly towards a bunch of poor people selling cheap stuff to each other and clustering into extended families to survive.
My personal theory is that the only reason we have not seen further economic problems is that the combination of savings from the boomer generation plus cheap goods from China we can sell at high margins are carrying what would otherwise be an insanely overbuilt retail sector and allowing most people to keep jobs and support the service sector.
What I don't know is what will carry the economy once the boomer generation ages further and stops buying so many toys. The next generations don't have the savings and generally aren't buying the luxuries that we are.
As Craig says, this is not the end of the world. We will find some new way to survive and make the economy work, but there is no guarantee that things will be as good as they are today. Toronto is picking up a lot of that third world "what's in it for me, why should I subordinate my desires for the greater good ?" mentality and we are seeing that in spades in NO today.
It takes many generations to build a "civilised" society but nowhere near as long to muck it up...
What have I done? That is none of your business. I guess I'm coming across as being morally judgemental and that is not my intention. I just don't see the importance that every conservative I know sees - in this "they chose to stay issue".
I know that what I did choose to do would have been far less than if I were still living near downtown Houston. All the wealthy people in Sugarland and The Woodlands (Houston) should be opening their large homes. I used to live there and I would. It's a no brainer, really. Perhaps I could have selected a family that couldn't leave as opposed to one who had made the choice to stay. LOL.
So people were going to walk out of the city during a hurricane? One woman (a tourist) didn't have a car and reporting people at her hotel loading up their SUVs without offering rides.
Meanwhile:
Thanks for rejecting aid that people could use Bush. Not very smart. Also, assuming few offers because we haven't asked for them is an insult (esp since offers have already been made). Meanwhile, Condi Rice says all offers accepted. Who's running this country?
"Still, Bush told ABC-TV: "I'm not expecting much from foreign nations because we hadn't asked for it. I do expect a lot of sympathy and perhaps some will send cash dollars. But this country's going to rise up and take care of it."
"You know," he said, "we would love help, but we're going to take care of our own business as well, and there's no doubt in my mind we'll succeed. And there's no doubt in my mind, as I sit here talking to you, that New Orleans is going to rise up again as a great city."
Bridgman, Here is some food for thought ... I graduated high school in 1978, and Penn State in 1982. The unemployment rate was 8.9% when I finished college, Inflation was 11%, the prime Rate was 16% and a car loan was 18%.
One of the major hit songs of the year was Billy Joel's "Allentown".
My first job application was for a sales job at a ball bearing plant. It paid $14,500 per year, and there were 76 applicants.
In 1982, I was terrified. Today, I look back at this with nostalgia.
Riffman - I expected that type of answer from you. "None of your business?". Yet you feel justified in complaining loudly at ALL the things everyone else is doing wrong.
By the way, My wife and I have already sent over $10,000. We believe in helping, no finger pointing.
No argument that those were also scary times as our governments started to understand the dark side of deficit financing (stagflation).
Having said that, I would propose that for a university grad today things are at least as tough if not more so. We had a job fair at ATI last year -- 25-30 positions and over 2000 applicants lined up around the building. In suits.
That was in a sector which is regarded as one of our few shining hopes for continued growth.
Craig, I've been watching this debate with interest from the sidelines, and you both have valid points. However, that's the second time you've thrown that number out. While I doubt it was your intention, one might be led to think you believe a $5 or $20 contribution that might be the limit of someone else's budget is somehow unworthy or invalid. As I said, I'm sure you didn't mean to do this, but that's precisely how it reads on screen.
Riffman - you are saying that you are trying not to be morally judgemental then you say it's a no-brainer that people with big houses should open their homes to complete strangers. I can see why people would not want to have 100 complete strangers staying inside their homes.
The importance of the "they chose to stay arguement" is that these people are now consuming resources that could have been used to save the less fortunate or even those that are taking care of young children.
I can see why Bush is not asking for foreign help yet - we still do not know what kind of help we need. It is better to have a plan than to send resources ad hoc.
In reply to:
Craig, I've been watching this debate with interest from the sidelines, and you both have valid points. However, that's the second time you've thrown that number out. While I doubt it was your intention, one might be led to think you believe a $5 or $20 contribution that might be the limit of someone else's budget is somehow unworthy or invalid. As I said, I'm sure you didn't mean to do this, but that's precisely how it reads on screen.
dmn, One part is correct, I did not mean to lead anyone to believe that a $5 or a $20 contribution was unworthy or invalid.
I am dismayed you elected to read it that way, but those things happen.
Here is a link to a thread from the Tsunami relief :
http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6410&highlight=because+tears+and+prayer+is+not+enough
Do me a small favor. Read it, then tell me how I think a $5 contribution is not worthy. Fair enough ?
Easy...this wasn't meant as an attack, and you don't have to prove anything to me. I applaud your generosity and I wish I could do as well. But I've received comments that I wasn't the only one to perceive your remarks that way. In the midst of what was (and might still be) a heated debate, I merely meant to caution you that your remarks could very easily run contrary to the spirit in which they were intended. I also apologize for pointing this out publicly -- my aim wasn't to embarrass you. That was something that should have been sent in a PM.
dmn ... I never said it was an attack. You made a statement, and I posted something for you to read. You did not say whether you did read it or not. I am not seeking an apology, either.
As for others pointing out my shortcomings for having mentioned what we had done here, I am used to that on the forums.
Some people would prefer to assume the worst in others.
That happens.
I will stay on the sidelines for the primary debate. BUT, to all those whose perceived Craig's comments as Mike did, I can only tell you that I've known Craig for several years now, and he has proved to me, with no fanfare whatsoever, over and over, that he is a generous, kind, caring man.
Most miscommunication problems occur not because one fails say what they mean, but rather because it is said in a manner that can be interpreted more than one way. Perhaps that is what happened with Craig's statement. However, It does seem to me a hefty stretch to interpret "I gave over XXX dollars," as meaning "a $5 or $20 contribution....is somehow unworthy or invalid."
Regardless, though I don't pretend to be a "bosom buddy of Craig's, I know enough about him to be comfortable assuring you all that THAT was certainly NOT in his mind when he made his statement.
Jack - Yes, we have some history between us. And I appreciate your chiming in.
I was actually responding to this little challenge when I posted what we had done to help in this tragedy. It is not exactly a shock that I am a conservative, and that this was aimed at me :
In reply to:
I'm just curious why all the conservatives continue to mention that people chose to stay in a time where people have DIED. Ok then. They chose to stay. What do you want to do about it? Shoot them? Leave them there?
So I responded with exactly what our actions were.
I don't take Craig's statement of the size of his contribution as a smack at those who can't afford that much, but I can't help seeing it as mild ego-stroking.
I do commend him for his generosity, however, and wish I were so fortunate as to be able to afford the same.
Conservative gets lambasted for not caring. Conservative gives a specific proving he does care. Conservative then gets:
In reply to:
but I can't help seeing it as mild ego-stroking.
Wonderful.
Anyone calling attention to their generosity causes me to raise an eyebrow. I didn't see anyone ask how much you had given.
I already know that you're a generous person from your past actions (you know, those things that speak louder than words). Stating numbers without being directly asked just tarnishes your image.
That's just how my brain figures it.
Jeeeez guy's does any of this really matter in the big picture? Let's keep this in perspective and move on.
I (Black Sand Cable) gave what I would consider to be a fairly sizeable donation and the one only one who will ever know the amount other then the Red Cross, is me and me alone. Why? That is me but in the end does it matter to the people who need it if it was $5.00 or $50,000? I doubt it.
Give what you can and be happy you got something to give.
If the above is ego stroking, I don't see it but whatever.
I do not read anything in Craigs response to assume anything other than he has contributed what he can comfortably afford.With that being said this is what most people I have talked to have done.When I talked to all our guys at work about giving to a releif fund for the people in NO it was my pleasent suprise that ALL the guys had already done so.I'm sure that we all at work gave an amount we could and to me that is all that counts.
I think you do need to look at the context here. As Craig says, his post was in response to a "so what should we do about all the people who stayed, shoot them ?" question. I think his answer was meant to be (a) yes we have a right to question why those people chose to stay and make life more difficult for everyone else, and (b) asking the question is not an alternative to helping, we are also doing something (a lot) to help everyone affected anyways.
Let's get back to arguing about something else, this is boring
Peter, You are, of course, right.
I thought we were (for the most part) all friends here, and that people would actually like to know (especially in light of the posting about how noone, particularly conservatives, is helping the victims of this tragedy) there was some good going on. I was hoping, as with what occured in the Tsunami thread from last January, that we would see an outpouring of generosity from other members in this forum. I was wrong.
I also left myself open to a negative intrepetation of my intent.
Perhaps the consensus here is that giving should be a private matter.
Please accept my apologies.
>> was hoping, as with what occured in the Tsunami thread from last January, that we would see an outpouring of generosity from other members in this forum. I was wrong.
Just a guess, but I think many of us have already made donations; I know I did as soon as I understood what was happening. The problem is that if the first post says "I donated $10" it's easy for someone else to come along and say "oh yeah, I donated $20" and on it goes.
When the first post is $10K the rest of us just gulp and figure we'll keep quiet about it
For the record, I have great confidence in our individual generosity (and motives), but I did feel that the organized relief effort (from the government agencies we *pay* to be prepared for this kind of thing) was too slow getting started, particularly when the primary problems were a shortage of water and an excess of violence. A couple of extra days can be a serious life/death issue under those conditions.
In reply to:
I was hoping, as with what occured in the Tsunami thread from last January, that we would see an outpouring of generosity from other members in this forum. I was wrong.
I'm not going to get drawn into a tit-for-tat pissing contest here; I simply refuse to. But Craig, how can anyone read the above statement and take it as anything but manipulative?
I don't know who is African-American on these boards. I don't know who is Asian, or White or Latino. I don't know who is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim. I don't know who is short, who is tall, who is skinny, or who is bald.
I don't know who is struggling to pay their bills. But I
do know that one member here has a lot of money. Whether it's discusssions of contributions, cars, or the number of HT systems owned, I've been reminded in posts here, and I think it
does smack of flaunting.
Why in the world would I know that, unless you gleefully offered that information here a number of times?
As I said, I will not get pulled into a pissing match here. But I think it's fair to defend Mikes' position (and to not leave him hanging) as I was one person who contacted him via a PM to let him know he was not off-base with his comments. I don't know if there were others.
Wasn't this supposed to be about Katrina?
>>I don't know who is short, who is tall, who is skinny, or who is bald.
I am Protestant, tall and not skinny, if that helps...
Mark, Nice post. Basically, you want to pontificate, insult, then say you refuse to be drawn into a pissing contest.
No problem. You go right on thinking I am gleefully flaunting and manipulative. I won't argue, nor try to sway you.
I really didn't mean for it to escalate to this. You've been a welcome presence on this board for a long time and your experience has been invaluable. I owe you the courtesy of stating more clearly what was on my mind.
The fact that anyone would throw around a specific figure just kind of struck me as self-congratulatory and a little tacky. I suspect many of us don't have ten grand to give away, regardless of how worthy the cause is. In my mind, when you were making your point it would have been a bit more becoming to simply say, "I made a contribution; what did you do?" Instead, it appeared needlessly competitive and kind of thoughtless -- you immediately won that round of the debate because you spent more.
I would definitely like to move past this, and I'm sorry for derailing the thread.
In reply to:
But I do know that one member here has a lot of money. Whether it's discusssions of contributions, cars, or the number of HT systems owned
So what if he does ? Most of what we have learned about Craig has been in context to a question being asked.This thread has seriously gone into the toliet.
a white guy,a black guy and an asian guy walk into a bar and the white......oops,im sorry....i thought this was the joke thread......lighten up guys
I agree Ron, that is why I try not to get involved in these types of discussions. In light of what events our southern brothers and sisters are facing, it is really a shame that this useless bickering continues.
Mark, you know I think highly of you, but I must object to your above post. Your first sentence says "I'm not going to get drawn into a tit-for-tat pissing contest here;" and then you proceed to be piss all over Craig, by saying "Why in the world would I know that, unless you gleefully offered that information here a number of times? I don't think he "gleefully" offered that information." Most of those facts have come out in answer to questions he's been asked. All he's ever done is respond truthfully. And any of that which has come out without being asked has been for informational reasons only. Craig is pretty much his own man. While he appreciates support (who doesn't), he does not require your (or my) approval.
In the current situation, he responded to what he perceived as an accusation that conservatives (i.e. HE) wasn't doing anything. It seems to me that anyone giving anything, regardless of amount, is worthy of praise. I find it hard to understand how saying you gave $10,000 is worthy of the criticism being heaped on Craig. Shouldn't we be saying BRAVO! It smacks of bias against Craig based on previous irritation with him.
It's perfectly OK to dislike Craig, just don't let that bias make you criticize him for doing something worthy of praise. Your perception that Craig was blowing his own horn, rather than accepting that he was responding to a perceived attack, plus your demonstrated frustration about him talking about his cars and theaters implies as much about where you're coming from as it does about Craig.
Perhaps, jealousy of his "cars, or the number of HT systems owned" is a factor. Why else bring those up? They have no bearing on the disagreement at hand. How many of us, including you, have posted pictures of our setups. What was that all about? Like you, I don't know who is African-American on these boards. I don't know who is Asian, or White or Latino. I don't know who is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or Muslim. I don't know who is short, who is tall, who is skinny, or who is bald. BUT, I know you own your own business; I know that 2x6 owns some slick cars, and audio equipment of which he is very proud; I know Peter is moving to Virginia; I know Capn Pickard has a cool townhouse (he proudly posted pics when he moved in); I know many people own much more expensive audio equipment than I own, and projectors with big screens that I will never be able afford. Why single out Craig for being honest about the circumstances of his life?
As for this being about Katrina, it was until someone made it about Craig.
(Mark, I still think highly of you. I hope you feel the same.)
I'm tall(ish), skinny(ish), balding(ish), and I like chili and beer.
Lets talk about the last two.
Could someone direct me to bigjohns chili recipe.
I made sure to save BigJohns chile it on file.It was too darn good not to.
'...chili and beer.'
I haven't made any chili in a while, we like to make it whenever the weather cools but I sure have been soaking up the Bud Light in this hot weather!
Believe it or not I like to use Carrol Shelby's chili mix whenever I make it.
In reply to:
we like to make it whenever the weather cools
Say what ? You boys don't have cool weather down there do ya
Didn't that, or he(Carol Shelby), originate in Terlingua?
Seems I read that in Car & Driver or Road & Track back in the 60s.
No kidding, I just spent a week in Orlando at an IT conference, and it was nice the whole time except for one day it rained a bit, but was still muggy
Speaking of chilli, I love Chicken chilli, with the white beans and shreaded chicken, not to mention an ice cold beer
'Say what ? You boys don't have cool weather down there do ya'
Yeppers, sometimes it even dips waaay down into the low seventies...that's when the parkas come out of the attic.
Sure we get cool. I've seen it drop into the teens here in Dallas.
Today was in the upper 90s and its still in the upper 80s at 9:00 P.M.
A buddy came by with an extra large bottle of NEWCASTLE BROWN ALE for me to cool things off.
I'll probably start cooking chili again in mid Oct.
It gets downright cold where I live(about 30 miles north of BrotherBob)We actually had frost one morning a few years back on the weekend that winter hit.
The mid teens is a tad bit chilly
We get a bit cooler than that here in northeren Il.This year we have had more 90+ days than I care to recall.I can't wait for some really nice 30 degree days
In reply to:
It gets downright cold where I live(about 30 miles north of BrotherBob)We actually had frost one morning a few years back on the weekend that winter hit.
Yep I remember that year, lost all of the citrus and darn near went into a state of emergency.
Actually it does get into the 40s and sometimes into the 30s, but things warm up to at least the 70s by noon....regardless of how cold things get in the early morning.
The chilliest I recall it hitting here in Melbourne was 28.
What surprized me was how cold it felt.
(Maybe it's age) Cause the coldest I recall riding the motorcycle to work up north was -9F and the coldest on the bicycle was -11F and it didn't seem all that bad at the time
The coldest I recall here is with a wind chill of - 75 degrees.It was back in 1982.Now that was no fun at all.
Since the topic of my flaunting my cars came up, here is my latest ride ...
THIS is a chick magnet ...
FM, I do believe 28 degrees was the low temp during the night prior to the Challenger disaster back in January of '86. I never will forget watching that from my home in east Orlando that day, not a cloud in the sky. Hard to believe it's been that long now.
Riding a bicycle at -11F is no chore. Riding a motorcycle at -9F was a little less comfortable cause I couldn't wear any eye protection due to frosting up and not being able to see well! Since nothing froze up and fell off, I suspect it was something warmer than -75F, but it was an interesting ride nontheless
I'd have ridden cooler, but that's as cold as it got!
At -75 wind chill, my CAR wouldn't have even started!!
The record cold temp here in Cleveland was something like -20 degrees F. The record high is 104 degrees F. I was around for both of those. That's a 124 degree swing. Jeez, are we humans a hardy breed, or WHAT?
Whoa, we must have been posting at the same time...
Wow Craig, no freaking wonder I can't get any chicks to ride along in my tan '76 Pinto station wagon, you uptown fellas have all of the nice rides.
We had a -55 degrees in Erie in 1986 - But it was due to my then girlfriend uncrossing her legs. The National Weather Service said that did not count ...
Tasteless, but funny!
Rick, It is the 0-60 in 1 hour, 12 minutes that makes 'em swoon ...
Hey..alright!...you bought my ex son-in-laws' car!(seriously, he and my daughter had one)
How's it running?
Oh....nope....slightly different model after all.
Sorta looks the same at first glance.
"I was around for both of those. "
Jack from what I understand and hear, you were around for most all historical events in Cleveland.
I don't *really* believe it though.
In reply to:
We had a -55 degrees in Erie in 1986 - But it was due to my then girlfriend uncrossing her legs. The National Weather Service said that did not count ...
Uh huh, so *that* explains it.
Craig, did I tell you that my wife is from Erie? Lived over near Harbor Creek.
In reply to:
Tasteless, but funny!
Hey, I am serious ...
In reply to:
Jack from what I understand and hear, you were around for most all historical events in Cleveland.
It does get cold down there
I am quite familiar with Harborcreek. You didn't meet her at Partner's Tavern by an chance, did you ?
In reply to:
Jack from what I understand and hear, you were around for most all historical events in Cleveland
BIG DEAL! The record high and low temps are the ONLY historical events that occurred in Cleveland.
And, Craig. You're just "gleefully" showing off, again. The record low temp in Erie was only -18 degrees F. However, I believe you are accurate about the cause.
It sure FELT like -55 ... That woman was NASTY. My wife likes her, though. Made her job easier ...
In reply to:
I am quite familiar with Harborcreek. You didn't meet her at Partner's Tavern by an chance, did you ?
Nope, actually I met her in Orlando whenever she first moved down back in '78. Her sister still lives there and we used to make annual visits untill her parents move to Florida.
Wesleyville is where she lived, attended Iroqouis High School...I almost forgot Craig.
The Iroquis Braves ... pretty good school.
Ok, now that the pot has returned to luke-warm -- thanks for the much needed cool off period guys! -- I'd like to offer a sincere apology to Craig for my part in the motive-questioning inquisition, and an apology to everyone else for participating in the derail. People are suffering and instead of discussing it I'm focusing on someone's frank posting style. My bad.
Now back to the topic. Fox News' coverage of this disaster is softening up the reality of the situation. After Pres. Bush's tour of the devastation, he held a pointless news conference, fawningly played by Fox News with no follow-up commentary whatsoever. He still has no more to say to the thousands of suffering but to sit tight because help is on the way.
And get a load of this. If you ever had any doubt that Fox News was the propaganda arm of the Republican Party,
look at the front pages of three different news web sites taken at noon today.
I don't know about that Craig, but I can tell you they do produce some mean women. And I do mean that in *good* way, sometimes.
In reply to:
I don't know about that Craig, but I can tell you they do produce some mean women. And I do mean that in *good* way, sometimes.
Here they are just plain mean
Well, I think characterizing Fox news as the propaganda arm of the Republican party is a little strong, but the comparison is telling. Lets say that Fox news slants things toward the conservative. At the same time, keep in mind that the conservatives characterize most of the other networks as the propaganda arm of the Democratic party. IMHO, both characterizations are a bit excessive, but I get your point.
I forgot to tell you that I thought that was a gracious post Peter. No surprise here, I just wanted you to know how I felt.
Well........not to stir the pot but it's a funny thing up here in Canuck land.
I know more then one person who view Fox as "Bush TV". At least that is the take that some of us Canucks have.......me included. Can you tell I don't have much use for Fox? They piss me off. Every year they come out with a show that sucks me in and I start watching it..........and then BANG it's gone. It drives me nuts and they do it all the time.
Let me also take a moment to apologize to the other forum members.
Katrina is a topic that deserves respect, and my post was inappropriate.
Here is a news clip from CNN today.
" NEW ORLEANS — To cries of "Thank you Jesus!" and catcalls of "What took you so long?," a National Guard convoy packed with food, water and medicine rolled through axle-deep floodwaters Friday into what remained of New Orleans and descended into a maelstrom of fires and floating corpses. "
This is CNN in full scale negativity, true ? Maybe CNN and FOX even each other out ?
From Fox ... The warm and fuzzy ...
"Diane Sylvester, 49, was the first person through the line, and she emerged with two bottles of water and a pork rib meal. “Something is better than nothing,” she said as she mopped sweat from her brow. “I feel great to see the military here. I know I’m saved.”"
It does appear both news sources have taken sides ...
In reply to:
NEW ORLEANS — To cries of "Thank you Jesus!" [...] National Guard convoy packed with food, water and medicine rolled through axle-deep floodwaters
Jesus of Nazareth is serving with the US National Guard?
Bren R.
Since I am awake after handling my son's nightly battle with diabetes (my wife is out of town, she has gotten to the point where she can do it in her sleep, I, on the other hand, am not as adept as she), I decided to do a little research between Fox News and the other news outlets.
Here is a quote from last year's election :
"" Let’s talk a little media bias here. The media, I think, wants Kerry to win. And I think they’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards — I’m talking about the establishment media, not Fox — but they’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards as being young and dynamic and optimistic and all. There’s going to be this glow about them that some, is going to be worth, collectively, the two of them, that’s going to be worth maybe 15 points.”
— Newsweek Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas on the July 10 ""
Note that Mr. Thomas placed Fox News outside the establishment media. The rest speaks for itself.
Next - During last year's presidential campaign, the overall media (according to a study by the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism), Pres. Bush was 3 times as likely to have negative stories as was Sen. Kerry. This covered the time from June 1 until the election. Fox News was included in this study, as were NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, and the major magazines.
Several news organizations checked the numbers, and none disputed them. They also found that Fox was less critical of Bush and more critical of Kerry, not in absolute terms, but rather against this 3 to 1 ratio.
As for those who despise Fox News, I could post volumes of material about innaccuracies by CNN about a myriad of topics. Or we could discuss Dan Rather.
OR - you can watch what you like and be happy, and allow those of us who enjoy Fox News to do the same. I do, however, in all seriousness, also check out CNN and MSNBC, in order to catch all sides.
Bren - We can only hope that she was praying ...
I don't take the CCN headline as overtly negative. It sounds like news to me. I think it was a resonable response in light of the facts. Anyway I have steered clear of participating in this thread. I have read it all with great interest and points have been made by all. I really don't want to stir things up. However I will say this. We owe it to ourselves to get information from multiple sources. I personally feel anyone who gets all their information from one source, whatever source that may be has no right to voice an opinion. I am also not saying anyone here is getting their information from one source. The quality and thought provoking information presented here proves otherwise. This is a very well informed group.
My main reason for hopping in is to relate that my son and a few of his friends have joined a group of FEMA workers and volunteers to go to N.O. to help in any way they can. I wish I could have gone as well but I will have to limit my participation to food drives and cash donations(undisclosed thank you very much). I'm sure this will be taken as gratuitous by some but I just wanted to say how proud I am that my son is getting involved in this way.
oz
That's a wonderful thing for him to do, Oz. Gratuitous or not, you have every reason to be proud.
I've been thinking about all the "where's the help," "what's taking so long," "Why have we refused outside help" comments. While I am in complete agreement that enduring even one day of what those people have endured is "too long," and share in the frustration with the apparent inactivity, I find it hard to pass judgment without knowing (1.) what it takes to mobilize a rescue mission of the size and complexity this situation requires, and (2.) what IS going on behind the scenes of which we are unaware. Do any of us here have a complete handle on those two issues?
From the survivors perspective, even one day is too long. However, if we knew what it took to mount this rescue, perhaps we might find doing it in 3 days (according to news reports, aid started arriving in quantity yesterday) was a doggone miracle. Perhaps not. When we take care of the critical issues, i.e. the people, there will be plenty of people to blame, including those who remained for frivolous reasons. I don't know about you, but telling me that ALL those people were physically unable to get out of the city stretches my credulity.
Other random thoughts available for comment.
1. It seems unwise to me to build a city below sea level on a hurricane prone coastline.
2. It seems unwise to me to build a house along a hurricane prone coastline, and unfair to then expect taxpayers to reimburse you so you can rebuild it in the same place when it gets taken out by a hurricane. I know that private insurance will be handling a lot of this, but I assume there will be a HUGE amount of money coming from the taxpayers for various services. I believe congress has already allocated billions of taxpayer money for this already.
3. Did anyone really doubt that the American people, along with aide from lots of other people around the world, would rise to the occasion with money, and supplies, and their time. Mark Schifter over at av123 ran a raffle that raised $10,000 in less than 48 hours, and is running a second one. Mike Dzurko over at ACI audio ran a raffle that sold out as quickly. Outlaw audio has one going at this very moment. I'd be surprised if EVERYONE here, within the scope of their abilities, hasn't contributed something, even if it's a little of their time. WE WILL get this done people.
Jack, as is typical, that was an excellent post.
Oz, ditto that, with major "attaboys" to your family.
In reply to:
1. It seems unwise to me to build a city below sea level on a hurricane prone coastline.
Great post Jack! My dad lived in NO a few years back and somehow to me it was rather unerving to be driving along Canal St and see the top portion of a passing barge on the other side of the dike a few feet above the level of the street.
News folks, it baffles me how a reporter can get their equipment loaded trucks and vans into areas that nobody else seems to be able to navigate but yet instead of loading these vehicles up with much needed supplies and water the story line seems to be more important. Interviewing dying and folks in terrible need while they're drinking a bottle of AquaFina, only to resort back to their hotel rooms in another city....incredible.
Yes, common folks in all parts of the world can be extremely resourceful whenever disasters such as this strike.
if it were not for the stories and video of the people that need help we wouldnt realize how bad it really is down there and the donations would probably be a lot lower than they are,so i see it as the reporters are doing a good job for themselves and it is also making people see how bad all of us need to help
I agree, but somehow these folks always seem to have a way of getting their particular political agenda into the mix. How many times do we need to see overhead shots of the affected area, couldn't the precious fuel they're burning in the choppers be put to a better use.
I'm quite sure there are reporters doing an excellent job and I commend them for their efforts.
First I’d like to offer my sympathy as well as my charity, to a proud, and truly great nation to my south.
It took awhile but I did read most of this thread. To see such fevered debate amongst seemingly smart men (and women) proves how great a democracy the U.S.A. can be.
It’s debate like this that will help the U.S. persevere and hopefully correct any mistakes or blunders that may have occurred in the aftermath of such a devastating disaster.
I donated to the tsunami (unicef) and to the red cross (hurricane relief). I donated the same for both. I had to think for awhile, if I should donate the same amount to by far the wealthiest country in the world (now I’m not saying that the U.S. is not in trouble financially, I realize it has it’s share of problems) but with nearly 300 billionaires and a defense budget of 400 billion per year I DID have to consider the difference between the two situations. I decided on the same amount, (which is substantial for me), because I left politics OUT of it and gave with my heart.
In the coming weeks I’m sure we’ll here horrific stories, as well as tales of heroism and strength. Hopefully it brings your nation together, and doesn’t tear it apart.
Healthy debate is a great tool of democracy.
Just my two cents…..
if you're looking for anti-bush news
altnewssource
As always, Jack... an excellent post.
What I don't understand is why someone didn't make a decision to prepare for this a couple of days in advance? After 9/11, much review and reorganization was done to improve our Emergency Management capabilities...falling under the shiny new "Homeland Security" badge. September 11 was, for all practical purposes, a complete surprise.
Yet here it was forecasted a couple of days in advance that a category 5, or maybe a 4 or a 3 would be hitting near NO... a city that's been waiting for the "inevitable" for many years. Why didn't someone make a decision to get water and MREs onto a few military bases or other storage facilities within a couple of hundred miles a day or two before?
I used to work for a small, local spring water company in RI for several years back when I was trying to get my business off the ground. When there was an "emergency need", that little company was able to load and deliver 5-6 truckloads of water in a couple of hours.... and it was a very small company....one percent the size of a larger company like Poland Spring. Why weren't supplies brought "nearby" with the 2-3 days warning they had?
Better, after the recent hurricane seasons we've had, why not have nearby military bases in the southeast simply build some storage areas and, before each hurricane season, load up just in case? It's not like it will all go bad in the few months of the season. Stock can be rotated and then re-distributed to base personnel via the PX or re-sold back to the distributor for wider distribution to consumers at the end of the season. I'm sure that much of the same could be done with certain medications and bandages and gasoline and fuel. Many of these items can be arranged on palettes and prepared for drop the day or two before a hurricane hits based on the forecast.
If these supplies were available on bases from Texas through Florida and up through the Carolinas, they could be available to rescue workers for helicopter airdrops on a much quicker basis.
Mark, It is really easy to criticize the efforts being done, and to also assail the preparedness of the area after the fact.
Within 72 hours of the realization of the level of disaster on hand, federal agencies had delivered 9.3 million meals and millions of gallons of water.
They did this into an unreachable area. Will we look back on this and make improvements to the system ? Yes.
Were there mistakes made ? Yes.
Is an incredible amount of relief being delivered ? Yes.
>>Within 72 hours of the realization of the level of disaster on hand
This seems to be the key issue. There was a very odd interview on TV last night with (sorry I didn't recognize him) the head of either FEMA or Homeland Security; the gist of it was that "they were too busy to sit around watching TV and therefore didn't realize how serious the problem was until Thursday". The guy being interviewed did manage to say this with a straight face. Sure they knew about it earlier but they didn't know "factually" until late Thursday which is why the help arrived on Friday.
The head of Homeland Security was quoted as saying (and I'm paraphrasing here): "You shouldn't believe all the rumors you hear about there being people in the stadium". He, evidently, did not realize that there WERE people sheltered in the stadium until two days afterwards. That, to me, is inept.
Craig, I'm not really as critical as I sound. I know the answers are not simple, and I'm sure much has been done heroically and correctly. My dad was head of cival defense for about 15 years in a coastal, island town in RI. I DO know it's never simple to deal with even marginal emergencies, not to mention widespread destruction such as this. I sympathize with the huge tasks that needed to be done, and it's true that it's easy to "Monday morning quarterback" from here.... but it seems some MAJOR blunders have been made, and it has cost people their lives.
In my view, from my safe location in NH and based only upon news reports, it seems to me that the first real test of the post-9/11, revamped system showed it to largely be broken.
Here is the entire transcript of the news conference on Thursday, the 1st with Mr. Chertoff.
In reply to:
Secretary Chertoff: Good afternoon. At this time, we'd like to update you on the current situation in the Gulf Coast states that have been afflicted by Hurricane Katrina and talk specifically about what is being done to assist those people who are in distress.
Let me begin by saying, of course, all of our prayers and our hearts are with those people who are suffering, those who have been evacuated and are now facing the prospect of some time in the Astrodome or other shelters, those who are waiting to be evacuated.
And let me tell you, we totally understand what it's like to be sitting on top of a roof or to be sitting in a shelter where it's hot, where you're worried about when you're going to be picked up, where you're thirsty, where you're hungry, where you're afraid for yourself or you're afraid for members of your family. There is no way a catastrophe can be minimized. I mean, this is a personal tragedy for everybody that's involved, those on the scene and the family members who are elsewhere as well.
We also understand it's not easy to look at the pictures of what's going on. You see, I think, 90,000 square miles of devastation, destruction, flooding, wind damage, whole communities that have been eradicated. We have to nevertheless proceed with our priorities in terms of how we deal with this unprecedented disaster.
And as President Bush made clear yesterday, our priorities are these: first, save lives; second, sustain lives by ensuring the necessary supplies of food, water, shelter, and medical supplies; and third, execute a comprehensive recovery effort to bring this area and these people back to the prosperity and the enjoyment of life that they're entitled to.
Now, let me emphasize, from the very beginning and as we speak, rescue operations have continued and are continuing in full force. The Coast Guard estimates that it has rescued approximately 3,000 people stranded in various flood areas, in particular in New Orleans and surrounding parishes. At the same time, we are continuing with our evacuation program; that is ongoing. And we're going to continue to increase the tempo of that program until we've cleared people out of the Superdome and we've cleared people out of New Orleans. And then we can begin the process again of cleaning the city and building up again.
What I'm going to do is talk a little bit about what we have underway by way of the total federal relief effort. I'm going to spend a little bit of time talking about security issues as they appear to be in the city of New Orleans, and also talking about the situation at the Superdome where we have a massive evacuation effort underway.
First of all, we remain in very close contact with state and local authorities to make sure they're getting every assistance they require. I've spoken on a regular basis with Governor Blanco and Governor Barbour and Governor Riley. Just today, President Bush responded to the requests of these governors to waive the cost share requirement for emergency response activities. That means that the federal share of the costs will increase from the current 75 percent to a full 100 percent.
Before Hurricane Katrina had even fallen -- had made landfall, the President declared emergencies in these areas, and that allowed us to preposition and start to distribute resources in the affected areas. We prepositioned 18 disaster medical teams, medical supplies and equipment, urban search and rescue teams. All of these were prestaged, along with millions of meals ready to eat, liters of water, tarpaulins, and truckloads of ice. By prepositioning these resources, we were able to speed our ability to deliver these necessary supplies.
In addition, we continue to pour in additional supplies every hour in this area -- massive quantities of water, ice, and food, 5.6 million MREs, over 13 million liters of water, thousands of generators, blankets and cots. We've deployed more than 50 disaster medical teams, and 28 urban search and rescue teams with nearly 1,800 personnel who have rescued, as I said, hundreds of victims and continue to provide medical care to survivors.
I want to take a moment to explain one of the unusual challenges of this disaster. Unlike other hurricanes we've seen where the destruction occurs, the hurricane leaves, and then we can come back into a stable area, this was really two disasters. There was the initial hurricane, and then there followed the flood. The act of flooding and the continued challenge of dealing with water levels that can be anywhere from three to four to eight feet have dramatically impeded our ability to actually get these supplies into New Orleans. This has really created a double challenge. We're not only confronting the original disaster of the hurricane, we're confronting the ongoing disaster of the flooding.
For those who wonder why it is that it is difficult to get these supplies and these medical teams into place, the answer is they are battling an ongoing dynamic problem with the water. We're hoping as we turn that around, that is going to ease the problem, and of course, the key to resolving the problem is to finally move the people out of New Orleans.
Other federal agencies, of course, beside DHS, have been very actively involved in providing aid. The Department of Health and Human Services has declared a public health emergency for the affected areas and is establishing a network of 40 medical shelters that will have a 10,000 bed capacity and a staff of 4,000 to care for victims. And as you know, yesterday, EPA and the Department of Energy took steps to alleviate the pressures that this disaster has placed on our nation's food supply.
Now of course, a critical element of what we're doing is the process of evacuation and securing New Orleans and other areas that are afflicted. And here, the Department of Defense has performed magnificently, as has the National Guard in bringing enormous resources and capabilities to bear in the areas that are suffering.
With that in mind, let me talk in particular about two things that I think are going to be of interest to everybody. First of all, what is the situation at the Superdome? We began evacuating yesterday evening from the Superdome. At this point in time, 1,500 special needs people and approximately 2,000 general population have, in fact, been evacuated from the Superdome. The special needs people go to medical facilities; the general population people are going to Houston.
We have had 200 buses that have already left carrying people like the special needs or general population to their destination. We have an additional 200 buses that have arrived that we are in the process of loading, and the Governor has ordered 500 school buses from around the state that are on the way. Each regular bus has a capacity of approximately 35 to 40 people. The school buses, I think, carry 75 people. This gives us a capacity to move large numbers of people, and as we get more buses, the tempo of that movement will continue to increase.
The fact of the matter is, the Superdome is secure. Understandably, there are crowd control issues. People are anxious, they're impatient, they're hot, they're tired, they want to get some place else. That is more than understandable. The National Guard has several hundred people present. The city police are present. They are managing the crowds. There was a shooting incident yesterday. The incident was resolved with a leg wound to a National Guardsman and the subsequent arrest of the person who was involved in the shooting.
In the city at large, we're obviously very concerned to make sure that good order is maintained. There have been isolated incidents of criminality. We've all seen pictures of looting. But let me tell you that we have a tremendous array of forces that are currently deployed in New Orleans.
As we speak, in addition to local law enforcement, we have 2,800 National Guard in New Orleans as we speak today; 1,400 additional National Guard military police trained soldiers will be arriving every day -- 1,400 today, 1,400 tomorrow and 1,400 the next day.
In effect, what that does is it adds the entire membership number of the New Orleans Police Force every day to the pool of security personnel who are in New Orleans. We will have more than quadrupled -- using National Guard -- more than quadrupled the number of security personnel who are available to maintain order in the city. I have spoken to the Governor, spoken to the -- General Honore, who is the general in command of the joint task force. Everybody is confident of the ability to maintain order, and is committed to continuing to do so as we finish up the evacuation operations.
We are also, by the way, mindful of the situation in Mississippi. There, of course, we don't have the extensive flooding, but we have destruction of a number of coastal communities. We've been talking to Governor Barbour. There are substantial National Guard personnel on the ground in Mississippi assisting and maintaining order there.
As of last night, there were 2,700 National Guard in Mississippi. By the end of today, there will be 6,000. And ultimately, we envision 9,500 National Guard deployed in various places in Mississippi. So with these National Guard forces, hundreds of law enforcement people who are coming into New Orleans from other parts of Louisiana and other parts of the country, we are going to have a security force present in New Orleans and in Mississippi that is many, many times the usual police force that you see on a normal day.
With these security forces in place, with the National Guard and the police in place, we will expeditiously finish the task of evacuating the remainder of the population of New Orleans that has to be removed. We will get them to shelter, and then we will begin the somewhat longer-term process of getting them into a permanent place of residence, or a semi-permanent place of residence, and draining the water, starting to clean New Orleans, and then moving on with reconstruction.
We're going to have reports from a number of other people here. I'm going to first call on Attorney General Gonzales. And then Assistant Secretary McHale from the Defense Department; General Blum, who is the head of the National Guard Bureau; Admiral Whitehead from the Coast Guard; and Patrick Rhode, who is the Deputy Director of FEMA, will all be speaking to you.
Let me remind everybody that this is without a doubt still a very, very dangerous situation on the ground in these areas. We encourage people not to engage in self-help, not to try to go back and see what the circumstances are with respect to their houses or possessions.
We also know that many, many people want to contribute. For guidance as to how to contribute to this effort to clean up and rebuild in New Orleans, and to address the urgent needs of the people who have been suffering, please go to the FEMA website, www.FEMA.gov, or the American Red Cross website, www.RedCross.org.
The recovery from this hurricane will take many months and it will take the spirit and the willpower not only of the citizens of the communities that were afflicted, but of every single American. We have met this challenge when there have been disasters overseas. We will meet this challenge in a disaster of this magnitude in our own country. All of wish, I know, Godspeed and good luck to those who are suffering. We will work as quickly as possible to remove you from the scene and finish the process of recovery and restoration. Thank you.
Then the Q&A
In reply to:
Question: I guess my first question, can you give the public a sense of how many people may yet be out there, still need to be rescued?
Secretary Chertoff: Well, let me distinguish between those who have to be rescued and those who have to evacuated. I can't give you a figure on the rescues. As I told you, Coast Guard has rescued 3,000 approximately to now; local law enforcement has rescued several thousand. We're not going to know until the water recedes a little bit whether we have identified all the people who may be in attics and may need a little bit of space to come out and get on the roof, or whether people are waiting until the water goes down lower and they can step outside and get to waist or chest-level water.
So we are continuing to search 24-7. We search at day, we search at night, and we're going to continue to do it until we're satisfied that we've identified everybody that needs to be rescued.
Now, the second issue is evacuation. What we do is, when we rescue people, or when we encounter people, we direct them to various evacuation sites around the city. Those sites have water and food and other necessities, and the idea is to have people stage there until we get vehicles to take them out.
A large number of people, frankly, have, on their own, decided they want to make their way to the Superdome. One of the challenges we face is that, as we pull people out of the Dome and evacuate them, additional people come. We certainly would encourage people, if they have a choice, to find another evacuation site to head themselves towards, because I think that will spread out the operation a little bit more.
But whatever it takes, whether they're at the Superdome or whether they're at other staging areas or whether they're on roofs waving flags, we are going to find them, we're going to rescue them and we're going to get them to safety.
Question: But I guess my question is, is it your sense that there are hundreds that still need to be rescued, or thousands?
Secretary Chertoff: I'd be guessing. I mean, a thousand seems like a very large number, but we have already rescued several thousand. Hopefully, most people have gotten themselves onto roofs and have been picked up. But, as I said, rather than give you a guesstimate, I can tell you that as long as there is someone on a roof waving a flag, we're going to be sending a helicopter out there to get them.
Question: There have been reports of shootings at helicopters or in other areas that have caused FEMA personnel to stand down, at least temporarily. Can you give us a sense of how widespread that level of violence is and exactly what's being done to deter that?
Secretary Chertoff: Well, I spoke to General Honore, I spoke to Mike Brown, who is on the ground, and to our particular -- our specific federal coordinating officer. We know there's been some isolated criminal misbehavior. I haven't actually received a confirmed report of someone firing on a helicopter. Where we have indications that there is danger in a particular area, we're careful to make sure we go in only when we have adequate security and protection. But I want to emphasize this: We have been operating rescue missions every minute, from the time we first got in there after the hurricane passed up to and including the present moment.
Question: Mr. Secretary, two questions. One is, are you satisfied that you have enough Guard forces there? And secondly, how long do you think it will take to evacuate --
Secretary Chertoff: I'm satisfied that we have not only more than enough forces there and on the way. And frankly, what we're doing is we are putting probably more than we need in order to send an unambiguous message that we will not tolerate lawlessness or violence or interference with the evacuation.
Now, the vast majority of people in New Orleans only want to save themselves and their families; they're not interested in making trouble. It appears that always in any large group you get a few people who do want to make trouble. We're not going to tolerate trouble. And there's going to be a sufficient show of force through the police and through the properly trained National Guard to make it clear to anybody who's thinking of stirring something up that they are not going to be able to get away with it.
The evacuation itself, I think, is a function of, again, the total number of people, how quickly we are able to get to them, given the existing state of flooding. We are seeking to get the Superdome cleared as quickly as possible. We're hoping to get it done within the next 24 hours. Again, that will depend partly on conditions. The more people that go to the Superdome, the more people we're going to have to take out. So that's obviously also part of the process. But we're also going to be attentive to other areas.
Let me say, by the way, that I know there are hospitals that have patients who need care. We have been very focused on evacuating them. We do prioritize, meaning that we go to hospitals and take the most critically needy out first, and then work our way down as -- we get the people who are sick, but perhaps not in a life-threatening situation.
And, in fact, yesterday, I happened to see on TV someone was calling from a hospital and complaining they weren't being picked up. And I called the operation center and I said, are you guys on top of this, and they said they were, and they made it clear that they, again, have a process in place which sets priorities and they're following that process.
Question: You hope to have the Superdome evacuated within a day?
Secretary Chertoff: Within 24 hours. Again, when I say "we hope," obviously there are a lot of conditions. And one of the conditions is, of course, the more people who go, the more buses we're going to need and the longer it's going to take. But that's what we're shooting for.
Question: What about the public health situation? If the people who are out in search and rescue are forced to pass up all the dead bodies and not take care of them, isn't that increasing the problem of health problems? And do you have an estimate of the fatalities?
Secretary Chertoff: I don't have an estimate of the fatalities. In an ideal world, we would pick up and dispose of any cadavers. We're not in an ideal world. Again, you have to -- in this kind of situation, you have to set priorities. Save the living is the first priority. Get them to shelter, get them food and water, is the second priority.
We do have to clean the city up. We do have to be mindful about public health. That's why we are flowing large numbers of medical assets and public health assets into the area. But again, as long as we have large bodies of standing water, it's going to be a challenge to address the cleanup, and we want to get the people out first.
Question: Mr. Chertoff, one question, please. Your priorities, to many people, seem consecutive rather than concurrent. And to people who are waiting for aid, they think that you're just out saving lives instead of bringing them relief. How can you resolve that --
Secretary Chertoff: Actually, it's a good question, because that would be a misimpression. In fact, we do do a lot of things at once. Our first priority, as I say, is rescue. But of course, not everybody is involved in rescue. So as we have helicopters doing rescue and boats doing rescue, we are simultaneously bringing thousands and thousands of liters of water, thousands and thousands of MREs, doctors, medical supplies into areas where people are waiting.
So, for example, when the helicopters go over the city and they see people who are in distress, they make sure they pick those people up. They may see the other people who are stranded but are basically at a place where they are safe. Those people will be given food and water and they may be told to stay for a while; we may not pick them up right away. But we'll make sure that they have the necessities they need in order to remain safe and secure in that place.
At the same time that we're doing this we're also, obviously, taking people to shelter in the Astrodome, we're taking people to shelter in other places. We are doing all these things at the same time. But again, when we have to face a choice, we want to have a clear sense of priorities in mind about life and limb being the most important thing.
Question: Do you think that FEMA should have had buses available for the evacuation at the time the evacuation order was first declared? And secondly, obviously here and now in retrospect, but did DHS and FEMA under estimate this and not have sufficient resources on the ground?
Secretary Chertoff: Actually, I think there was an extraordinary effort to put resources on the ground and pre-position them. As I said, the President declared states of emergency before the hurricane made landfall. So that enabled us not only to put large quantities of water and food and tarpaulins and generators in place, but it also allowed us to actually start flowing that out in advance. But then there comes a point where you're in the storm. And this has been a unique disaster in that we really had two disasters one after the other. We had the storm, but then before we could come in and begin the rescue effort and the evacuation effort and the effort to address people's needs, we had a second catastrophe. That was the levee breaking and the flood coming in.
That has been the principal problem getting the issue of evacuation addressed. We've had to contend with the fact that it's very difficult to move around. The flooding has also had an impact on the availability of buses. It's had an impact on the availability of gas and drivers. We've had to go out and augment what we already had to deal with this additional situation.
You know, in some ways every crisis, whether it be a natural catastrophe or a man-made catastrophe, illustrates the point that preparation is of the utmost importance, and yet even after perfect preparation, the beginning of the catastrophe immediately starts to change the facts on the ground and you have to adapt.
I think the genius of the people who are working here, the genius of the people of FEMA, the people in the National Guard, the people in the Coast Guard is, they have been marvelously adaptable. They have brought, for example, airlift capabilities and air rescue capabilities to bear in a way that I don't think we've ever seen in this country before. And so I think it is a source of tremendous pride to me to work with people who have pulled off this really exceptional response.
Question: Mr. Secretary, can we get a couple more questions, please, sir? We were held outside for an hour and we were just allowed in. A number of us have just come from Scott McClellan's briefing, which is why we were held outside. He said you would give us specific figures on the ballpark costs, how many people were displaced, and specifically what offers of international aid had been made and what had been accepted.
Secretary Chertoff: Okay, sure. I can only be as specific as the data allows me. You asked about money. This is going to be very expensive. I think we have probably obligated or spent over a couple of a billion with a "b" dollars. When I say obligated, that means we've entered into contracts we're going to have to pay for. That is clearly extraordinary, and although I can't predict what future expenditures are going to be, it gives you a measure of the kind of resources that are involved.
In terms of people displaced, they fall into two categories. You have people who heeded the mandatory evacuation order or who voluntarily evacuated who have left and gone to hotels or motels or to relatives. First of all, we will be assisting people. We have rental assistance, they have other forms of aid that will help them go through the next weeks and months. I can't estimate what that is, but I would have to -- with precision, but I would have to say we've got to be talking about hundreds of thousands of people, if you consider all the communities involved.
Then you have those people who are in the process of being evacuated. We started out at the Superdome with probably around 10,000 people. We've been pulling people out and yet more people have come. I would say it's probably in the neighborhood of 20,000 to 30,000 now. Again, I would guess that there -- based upon the population figures in New Orleans, that there are comparable numbers or more in New Orleans, and then you have the surrounding parishes.
So I think ultimately we're talking about dislocations of hundreds of thousands of people, and that will be a challenge for this country on a par with some of the great tragedies we've seen overseas.
Speaking of overseas, we have gotten, I believe, offers of assistance from other countries. I spoke to the Deputy Prime Minister of Canada the day of the hurricane; she offered her assistance. Germany has offered assistance, England has offered assistance. Dozens and dozens of countries have offered assistance.
We're coordinating those offers through the Department of State. Obviously we want to make sure that what we get is what we can use, that we proceed in an orderly way. But much as we have come to the aid of the rest of the world when others have been in jeopardy, so the world has responded to us.
Well, the question of which level of gov't is most responsible for the apparent lack of disaster preparedness is an issue that will be resolved with time. Maybe we'll learn something.
In my area the disingenuous are simply basking in the opportunity to blame Bush and make irrelevant linkages to the war in Iraq. Whatever.
What really saddens me is the complete lack of civility in what appears to be a huge number of New Orleans residents. The disorder extends far beyond "mere" looting to include rape, murder, etc...
This is precisely why I have been appalled for a long time by ongoing efforts from certain segments of American society (and int'l folks, too) to break down the American people's love, respect and reverence for their own history and political tradition. Belief in the goodness of our social structure, the principles our gov't is founded upon and the willingness to obey the law should not be contingent on whether law enforcement can hold you accountable or whether the gov't is providing you with enough freebies. IOW, the legitimacy of any gov't (and the laws enacted by it) should not depend on the threat of violence or massive welfare benefits.
Americans need to instill in their children - and I'm privileged to teach US History & American Gov't to a handful of young citizens each year
- the sense that America is good and decent. That we are part of something bigger than ourselves; something that has brought much good to its citizens and others. Do that and you won't need Nat'l Guard troops to come in every time there is a power outage.
If we continue to allow the disingenuous and their stooges to cultivate an atmosphere of victimization and helplessness, then the stage will surely be set for what the class warfare folks want - very distinct classes of haves and have-nots (probably broken along racial lines), a breakdown of the social order and subsequent radical change.
We need to teach kids that opportunity abounds, but it is the individual who is responsible for his own success and welfare. And his own actions; even when the man isn't around to punish him.
>>Here is the entire transcript of the news conference on Thursday, the 1st with Mr. Chertoff.
Wow... totally different picture from what the media is portraying. I wonder which story is closer to the truth ?
I did notice a BBC transmission late last night which focused on the fact that there were tens of thousands of people stranded in the Superdome with zero relief so far, even after other news programs had been showing pictures of a largely empty Superdome (other than the wrapped up bodies), everyone having been taken away on buses.
Here is a post from AV123, from a gent from New Orleans. He has actual first hand accounts from talking to local law enforcement :
In reply to:
I wanted to chime in here regarding the looting and the media's coverage of it. All the news stations I've been watching are downplaying the chaos the looting and lawlessness are really creating. Many of the things I have been told by the parish sheriff and his deputies is not making it onto the national newscasts. We are now receiving local New Orleans newscasts and they are starting to report about some of these incidences. I just finished watching a local N.O. newscast and the reporter was interviewing a N.O. police officer. In the midst of the interview automatic gunfire was directed at the news crew and officer. The interview was continued several minutes later once the situation was resolved. The police officer reported that they were able to spot muzzle flashes on one of the subsequent bursts and placed several shots in the area to neutralize the threat. This activity is going around all over the metropolitan area. A number of police officers have been shot and killed. The vast majority of this is not being reported. I have been told of many incidents like the one above (and worse) that are not being reported.
The early lessons I have drawn from this disaster so far, are:
#1 AS a society, we must no longer coddle criminals, turn a blind eye to deliberate social misfits, who have no interest in anything constructive, make excuses for any, and all bad behavior.......or we will have many, many, more "bad people" looting, and shooting at responders. We must at ALL times, fairly enforce our laws, or Eventually, they will be EVERYWHERE, lurking in the shadows, waiting to make any bad situation worse.
#2 AS a country, we need to produce more industrial goods to sell the world, as we used to do....to generate the kind of economic might needed to quickly respond ($$$$$) to ANY tragedy......all we ever talk about in the economic vein, is our economy.... look how from the slightest thing... to a war, to a catastrophy effects it in a huge, negative way. (no wonder the terrorists target our economy with their attacks). we had better wake up, and quit telling the world we're a super power....until we get our "house of cards" economy on sure footing.
Had a bit of fun today with a bad situation.
Bounced through cable news, network to network, including whatever I could find elsewhere. And the predictable happened!
Whatever your political bent or moral affiliation; you can find the news that fits your needs!
One says the govt is all screwed up, another leaves you with the impression that Yes, the govt is all screwed up but at least is trying. Yet a third says the govt isn't all screwed up, but just misunderstood.
And anywhere inbetween. I paid little attention to what I was watching; just stopped the clicker when I saw crowds of desperate people, and listened to the "tone".
It still made me sad, reguardless.
Hmmmm.....let me add a comment here. I actually prefer to collect and analyze data, not editorialize.
Wow, what a thread. Some pretty disturbing comments, accusations and incredibly ridiculous assumptions going on here……never assume anything. There’s always three different sides to every situation and conversation.
In a time of crisis, I would have hoped that this audience would have the intelligence to weed out the crap and look at the situation from a broader perspective. There is always massive chaos during these times, regardless of the global location. This one just happens to be in the US.
I’m a project manager and am simply amazed at the progress made with regards to the N.O. relief effort. It’s not a simple thing to plan, coordinate and implement any project - of any size. For sake of simplicity, I’ll refer to all efforts in N.O. a project. This project is immense in size of incalculable proportions. It is incredibly complex and will involve more departments in government, more unique and specific crafts and trades, professions, organizations, companies, corporations, managers, supervisors, individual contributors than any one of us could ever possibly imagine. It’s mind blowing to me when I actually think about how I would manage something like this. You need to remove the emotions and really try to look at this differently to put things into perspective. Just take a moment and think about it as if you were in charge. And also take into consideration that rescue personnel are getting shot at!!!
All this banter about the US refusing aid is also made without looking at the situation without emotion. It takes one person to change a light bulb. Ten folks would only delay the work and cause confusion. Plus, wasted energy that can be put to better use elsewhere as needed. To rush into anything without direction and order will only create more chaos. You also need to remember that this country is at war with terrorist. Don’t you think they are currently planning and scheming to take advantage of this tragedy to only further their “cause”. You’re fools to think otherwise.
Media – all media is biased and only report what to them is “news worthy”, with their prejudices. None of them are accurate - none. To argue over which one is telling the truth is pointless. I served 85-91, and I’ve been there on the ground dodging bullets in numerous countries when the reporters were telling their tales and putting their twists on the events. We actually looked forward to some amusement when we’d sit down and watch the news coverage after the operation was complete. I’ve never, not once seen a news report or special on the discovery channel that was any where close to being accurate of the events that I was directly in the middle of.
And to rip on Craig for being specific with his monetary contribution was not called for. He mentioned the amount to quantify his sincerity and support, nothing more than that. The number wasn’t meant to make anyone feel inferior or to boast. It was a way for him to communicate the worth and personal sacrifice of his pledge to the relief effort. He’s a business man. Businessmen need to put a monetary number to everything for it to have meaning and a ranking to them. Others, such as a tradesman, communicate their worth and value in terms of what they do. They work with their hands, so when they communicate worth and value, it is in the way of “doing something”. So why the hell not tell everyone how much?? Everyone knows that he’s not living off food stamps and you all also should be big enough to admit that $20 isn’t going to make any of you live off rice and beans for two weeks. $20 would be insignificant to him, but I bet the 10K that he donated is a substantial hit to his family. He may have a sizable income, but he ain’t filthy rich either. If he was, do you think he’d be buying internet speakers? No, wealthy folks don’t buy on-line, they have things made for them just so they match the new gold slippers on their lap dogs with $500 hair cuts. I applaud him for donating that amount and only wish I could. Had he just stated that he made a donation, my thought would have been “so what, so did I”. The amount put substance behind it that I can understand and appreciate. If someone living from paycheck to paycheck who is having trouble buying school clothes for their kids told me $20, I would then think, “way to go, I know that hurt”. But if Craig were to have donated that, I’d say, “big deal you cheap bastard”.
If you got it to give, give – along with some prayer. If you don’t, then give your prayers. But please don’t bash those who can, and do give.
By the way ... This was actually the Fox News opening headline :
" NEW ORLEANS — To cries of "Thank you Jesus!" and catcalls of "What took you so long?," a National Guard convoy packed with food, water and medicine rolled through axle-deep floodwaters Friday into what remained of New Orleans and descended into a maelstrom of fires and floating corpses. "
And this was CNN :
""Diane Sylvester, 49, was the first person through the line, and she emerged with two bottles of water and a pork rib meal. “Something is better than nothing,” she said as she mopped sweat from her brow. “I feel great to see the military here. I know I’m saved.”"
Funny how reality is different than people's recall of what they heard yesterday ...
Mdrew - First, Thank You. And for all those who have followed this, Mark Johnson PM'ed me, and we had a nice exchange.
Mdrew makes a VERY valid point. ANY amount given is important. Here is what I had posted in the Tsunami thread about amounts :
In reply to:
Much appreciated... and if someone only can afford $1 ... it just does not matter ... this is from the heart from us all...
This was in response to a person who had contributed. And it does not matter the actual amount. It is wanting to help that matters.
Hey all, I'm going to give a little more myself. Until the 15th of this month and perhaps longer, I'm going to give 25% from various products that I sell to the Red Cross. This is not a shameless plug so please don't bash me for it. My wife and I had a long chat about this last night. Being we are not wealthy people, I can only give so much cash, but what I can do is forgo the profit and then some on my power cords and donate it all to the Red Cross. I will personally be kicking in around 10% on every one sold. I also threw a few on E-Bay where 100% of the selling price will go to the Red Cross.
If this is out of line, let me know and I will email Amie to delete my post. Seeing as how AV123, Outlaw and others are doing it, I felt compelled to do it. I can't do it on the same scale, but at least it's something.
It should be noted that the 25% will be on non competing products from Axiom. Power cords etc. Those that are regulars here know that I don't promote my side business in these or any other forums and I'm not starting now......I just figured I needed to do a little more.
I may take this one step further. I just picked up a 1 owner perfect condition Rotel RMB-1075. I'm willing to give the money to charity. Perhaps a draw of some kind? Buy tickets for $25.00 or whatever and all proceeds go to the Red Cross or some other charity? Maybe I'm getting carried away but I'm willing to do it.
NeverHappy ... Nice Idea ! Can you link to your site ?
I'm not sure if posting my url will be ok here but blacksandcable.com that you see in my sig will get you there or blacksandcable.ca will also get you there. I have a paranoia about people viewing this as self promotion. As I said it's not but I can definitely see how some would think so.
I just updated my sites main page with the following scrolling text:
In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Until September 15, 2005 we will be donating 25% from all Black Max sales to the Red Cross to help support the Katrina relief effort. If you haven't already donated, please do so!
In reply to:
blacksandcable.com that you see in my sig
Ok ... Or I could actually look DOWN instead of asking for a link ...
Figure out the logistics and let us know where to send the money.
Your site is adding freight to Katrina support.
I'm working on it now. Hold off for sec!
All fixed. If anybody wants in, here you go:
ROTEL RMB-1075 DRAW
Please spread the word!
Neverhappy - You can only receive PayPal, correct ?
One more try. Multiple tickets generate freight.
As of right now, yep. I guess somebody can mail me the payment if they need to. I'm working on my own merchant account but it won't be up anytime soon.
Ok ... I will grab some tix when my wife comes home tomorrow. Guess who does not know his PayPal password ?
Fixed again................unless your trying to buy more then $199.00 worth of tickets.
The Paypal login doesn't work for me. I must be doing something wrong.
Doug I just bought my tickets using the secure checkout (not a paypal member), worked fine for me.
mdrew, Thanks for a thoughtful statement putting many things in perspective.
bigwill,
Your post appears to have been lost in the fray, so I though I'd acknowledge it and say that I completely agree with you. Personal responsibility seems to be at an all-time low in this country, and it's costing all of us more than we probably think. I wonder how many of the people who chose to stay in the city had any sort of emergency supplies -- even just a supply of drinking water -- on hand in case things were worse than expected.
ditto that. nice post mdrew, especially the emotion aspect.
Holy crap!
This is a video (windows media) of an interview with Aaron Broussard, President of Jefferson Parish, La from Meet the Press on NBC this morning.
Why the hell would FEMA cut emergency phone lines in New Orleans? Is no news good news, or something???
Heard this interview with Mayor of New Orleans Ray Nagin on the radio Friday morning. Pretty interesting perspective on the "quick" response.
clip
(CNN) -- New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin blasted the slow pace of federal and state relief efforts in an expletive-laced interview with local radio station WWL-AM.
The following is a transcript of WWL correspondent Garland Robinette's interview with Nagin on Thursday night. Robinette asked the mayor about his conversation with President Bush:
NAGIN: I told him we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice. And that I have been all around this city, and I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we're outmanned in just about every respect.
You know the reason why the looters got out of control? Because we had most of our resources saving people, thousands of people that were stuck in attics, man, old ladies. ... You pull off the doggone ventilator vent and you look down there and they're standing in there in water up to their freaking necks.
And they don't have a clue what's going on down here. They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of goddamn -- excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed.
WWL: Did you say to the president of the United States, "I need the military in here"?
NAGIN: I said, "I need everything."
Now, I will tell you this -- and I give the president some credit on this -- he sent one John Wayne dude down here that can get some stuff done, and his name is [Lt.] Gen. [Russel] Honore.
And he came off the doggone chopper, and he started cussing and people started moving. And he's getting some stuff done.
They ought to give that guy -- if they don't want to give it to me, give him full authority to get the job done, and we can save some people.
WWL: What do you need right now to get control of this situation?
NAGIN: I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here.
I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."
That's -- they're thinking small, man. And this is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough, man. This is crazy.
I've got 15,000 to 20,000 people over at the convention center. It's bursting at the seams. The poor people in Plaquemines Parish. ... We don't have anything, and we're sharing with our brothers in Plaquemines Parish.
It's awful down here, man.
WWL: Do you believe that the president is seeing this, holding a news conference on it but can't do anything until [Louisiana Gov.] Kathleen Blanco requested him to do it? And do you know whether or not she has made that request?
NAGIN: I have no idea what they're doing. But I will tell you this: You know, God is looking down on all this, and if they are not doing everything in their power to save people, they are going to pay the price. Because every day that we delay, people are dying and they're dying by the hundreds, I'm willing to bet you.
We're getting reports and calls that are breaking my heart, from people saying, "I've been in my attic. I can't take it anymore. The water is up to my neck. I don't think I can hold out." And that's happening as we speak.
You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."
WWL: Who'd you say that to?
NAGIN: Everybody: the governor, Homeland Security, FEMA. You name it, we said it.
And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people ... stayed there and endangered their lives.
And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people.
In addition to that, we had water flowing through the pipes in the city. That's a power station over there.
So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.
WWL: Why couldn't they drop the 3,000-pound sandbags or the containers that they were talking about earlier? Was it an engineering feat that just couldn't be done?
NAGIN: They said it was some pulleys that they had to manufacture. But, you know, in a state of emergency, man, you are creative, you figure out ways to get stuff done.
Then they told me that they went overnight, and they built 17 concrete structures and they had the pulleys on them and they were going to drop them.
I flew over that thing yesterday, and it's in the same shape that it was after the storm hit. There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.
WWL: If some of the public called and they're right, that there's a law that the president, that the federal government can't do anything without local or state requests, would you request martial law?
NAGIN: I've already called for martial law in the city of New Orleans. We did that a few days ago.
WWL: Did the governor do that, too?
NAGIN: I don't know. I don't think so.
But we called for martial law when we realized that the looting was getting out of control. And we redirected all of our police officers back to patrolling the streets. They were dead-tired from saving people, but they worked all night because we thought this thing was going to blow wide open last night. And so we redirected all of our resources, and we hold it under check.
I'm not sure if we can do that another night with the current resources.
And I am telling you right now: They're showing all these reports of people looting and doing all that weird stuff, and they are doing that, but people are desperate and they're trying to find food and water, the majority of them.
Now you got some knuckleheads out there, and they are taking advantage of this lawless -- this situation where, you know, we can't really control it, and they're doing some awful, awful things. But that's a small majority of the people. Most people are looking to try and survive.
And one of the things people -- nobody's talked about this. Drugs flowed in and out of New Orleans and the surrounding metropolitan area so freely it was scary to me, and that's why we were having the escalation in murders. People don't want to talk about this, but I'm going to talk about it.
You have drug addicts that are now walking around this city looking for a fix, and that's the reason why they were breaking in hospitals and drugstores. They're looking for something to take the edge off of their jones, if you will.
And right now, they don't have anything to take the edge off. And they've probably found guns. So what you're seeing is drug-starving crazy addicts, drug addicts, that are wrecking havoc. And we don't have the manpower to adequately deal with it. We can only target certain sections of the city and form a perimeter around them and hope to God that we're not overrun.
WWL: Well, you and I must be in the minority. Because apparently there's a section of our citizenry out there that thinks because of a law that says the federal government can't come in unless requested by the proper people, that everything that's going on to this point has been done as good as it can possibly be.
NAGIN: Really?
WWL: I know you don't feel that way.
NAGIN: Well, did the tsunami victims request? Did it go through a formal process to request?
You know, did the Iraqi people request that we go in there? Did they ask us to go in there? What is more important?
And I'll tell you, man, I'm probably going get in a whole bunch of trouble. I'm probably going to get in so much trouble it ain't even funny. You probably won't even want to deal with me after this interview is over.
WWL: You and I will be in the funny place together.
NAGIN: But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.
Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.
You know, I'm not one of those drug addicts. I am thinking very clearly.
And I don't know whose problem it is. I don't know whether it's the governor's problem. I don't know whether it's the president's problem, but somebody needs to get their ass on a plane and sit down, the two of them, and figure this out right now.
WWL: What can we do here?
NAGIN: Keep talking about it.
WWL: We'll do that. What else can we do?
NAGIN: Organize people to write letters and make calls to their congressmen, to the president, to the governor. Flood their doggone offices with requests to do something. This is ridiculous.
I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.
Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.
WWL: I'll say it right now, you're the only politician that's called and called for arms like this. And if -- whatever it takes, the governor, president -- whatever law precedent it takes, whatever it takes, I bet that the people listening to you are on your side.
NAGIN: Well, I hope so, Garland. I am just -- I'm at the point now where it don't matter. People are dying. They don't have homes. They don't have jobs. The city of New Orleans will never be the same in this time.
WWL: We're both pretty speechless here.
NAGIN: Yeah, I don't know what to say. I got to go.
WWL: OK. Keep in touch. Keep in touch.
Peter, I like to describe what BigWill is talking about by saying "we have a crisis of responsibility in this country." NOBODY seems willing to take responsibility for their actions.
Regarding that poor distraught heartbreaking man. I would ask that we all reserve judgment at this point. It seems that everybody involved is pointing the finger at everybody else (crisis of responsibility, perhaps?), and the fact is, we just don't know exactly what went on before, during, and since this awful tragedy.
The scary question is who, in heaven's name, are we going to get to figure it all out. I'd prefer it not be anyone from the the parties involved, i.e. local government, state government, federal government. Who else is left? I would also like to make it clear that my interest in finding out what happened, and what went wrong, is not so much in assessing blame, and meting out punishment, but rather in gaining the knowledge needed to avoid this ever happening again. IMHO, the "blame game" is counterproductive.
Returning to "responsibility," In all the interviews I've seen, there has been only one man accept responsibility for remaining in New Orleans when he should have left. JUST ONE, out of all those thousands of people who, tearfully, blamed himself for his misery. Everyone else I've seen blames anybody else.
I don't have a lot of respect for the Mayor of N.O. He seems to be the biggest finger pointer of all. He deserves credit for, before Katrina hit, making it all too clear that this was a hurricane of biblical proportions and that EVERYBODY should get out of the city. But since the tragedy, all he's done is blame everybody else. It remains to be seen if he is correct, and I am reserving final judgment. But, that behavior does not earn my respect.
Jack I'm in total agreement with your above assessment.
_______________
"I don't have a lot of respect for the Mayor of N.O. He seems to be the biggest finger pointer of all. He deserves credit for, before Katrina hit, making it all too clear that this was a hurricane of biblical proportions and that EVERYBODY should get out of the city. But since the tragedy, all he's done is blame everybody else. It remains to be seen if he is correct, and I am reserving final judgment. But, that behavior does not earn my respect."
I'm totally with you regarding this individual, not much of a leader in my opinion.
Thanks Peter for the link, I saw that story on "Meet the Press" also, pretty heartbreaking. Turning away water from Walmart, Fuel, and cutting electrical, what is wrong with this picture. That final story before he broke down had my wife and I both in tears.
Peter - I watched a lengthy interview with Mr. Broussard on Saturday. He was complaining then that the government was "ignoring middle class white people and rescuing inner city blacks instead". Some of the comments he made were sounding like rhetoric from a Klan rally.
The idea that "overspun.com", as an obviously left wing blog, is using this racist to make a political point, should hopefully disgust you. As he was being interviewed, you could see dozens of wrecked cars in the background, and people standing on their houses. In other words, these people could have driven safely out on Thursday, the 25th, Friday, the 26th, Saturday, the 27th, Sunday the 28th. These people stayed, as did most of the "victims".
As for the mayor of New Orleans, and the governor of Louisana, and their complaints about the Federal response, the Louisana Guard is under direct control of the governor.
Each state controls its own guard units. Governors have historically fought against federal control over "their" troops. States have constitutionally stipulated control over each's National Guard as a buffer against a tyrannical Central Federal (ie. Washington) government.
Here is a link to the pdf file which explains how local, state and federal authorities are to respond in a disaster situation:
https://www.doctrine.quantico.usmc.mil/signpubs/w3334.pdf
The primary rule is this (and this is in bold face in the doctrine) :
"The National Guard in a non federal status has the primary responsibility for providing military assistance to state and local governments".
I know will probably get some hackles up, but here are some facts regarding this tragedy:
1. A category 4 hurricane more energy than 10,000 nuclear weapons.
2. This much force actually hit in a really bad spot.
3. People are trying to find someone to blame, and most of those trying to blame someone else for this tragedy are doing so to either: a. gain politically or b. cover their own asses.
4. If we, as a populace, decide we want "heads to roll", and for people to be publically humiliated, WE are asking for more trouble. Because, instead of seeking to be better prepared in the future, WE will be forcing people to go in CYA mode.
Finally, if we are to be intellecually honest, There is not anyone who would have been better prepared than those people at the state, local, and federal levels than what we have today. We have never seen anything like this. ever.
The Wife and I were having quite a time discussing all of this; finger pointing, responsibility et al, when one of the Grandkids came in and said we needed a spacecraft from one of the movies to come down and beam all the people up through the roofs of the houses, and from the water, and the rubble, and from the Domes. It'll have to very large to hold about a million people! And in a lot of respects, he's right. We may not actually have the technology and resources and infrastructure available to do the job that the average couch quarterback thinks we should. To me, anyway, to get a million folks or so, from rubble, from flooding, from within forty thousand individual structures, from within thousands of square miles area, to give them all food, water, clothing, medical attention, shelter, a little spending cash, viable comfortable dwelings for the newly homeless, and a quick route to their closest relatives within twenty-four hours or less, for the rest, so that people aren't suffering is something that may not be attainable regardless of what party is in office, and even if an unimaginably large ammount of money were available from whatever source.
Unless such a monumental craft already exists; in secret, at Area 51.
We need to develop that "Spaceship" technology, right? And Right Away. Just as soon as we finish something simple, like the space station.
I think most folks out there realize that this is not a simple task; but it's also not as simple a task as they think it is either.
Rich.
In reply to:
4. If we, as a populace, decide we want "heads to roll", and for people to be publicly humiliated, WE are asking for more trouble. Because, instead of seeking to be better prepared in the future, WE will be forcing people to go in CYA mode.
Finally, if we are to be intellecually honest, There is not anyone who would have been better prepared than those people at the state, local, and federal levels than what we have today. We have never seen anything like this. ever
I think these last two points are particularly cogent. Re. point #4: Though I feel this is absolutely correct, I fear our chances of avoiding the "blame game" are virtually nil. It is a practice which seems ingrained in our very nature. And, even if it was made perfectly clear that neither punishment nor humiliation would be involved, of those who made really serious blunders, how many do you think will step up and say "I really goofed, and here's how." CYA is as deeply ingrained as playing the "blame game."
Re. the last statement: Though we will never know for a certainty, I strongly suspect that no one could have handled this any better than anyone else. As Craig said, we have never experienced anything like this.
There are, however, questions that must be answered. Keep in mind that the following is based on my memory, and, lord knows, my remembering ain't what it used to be. But, I believe I heard that the levee system around New Orleans was built to withstand a category 3 hurricane. If that is correct, I'd sure like to know, since hurricanes can reach category 5, why the levees were built to only withstand a only a category 3 hurricane. I'm willing to admit there could be issues and facts of which I am unaware that would render that decision the proper one. My problem, is that I just can't think of any. If they exist, I'd sure like to hear them.
Jack, Unprecedented situations CAN sometimes lead to new solutions. For example, after the clean up has started, a "political amnesty" could be declared, which COULD allow for all those involved to state what worked and what didn't, without the looming "gotcha" from other agencies or political parties.
It will still boil down to the populace, though. As a general rule, we get what we deserve. If WE demand a reasonable, non-partison approach, we will get one.
I will look in for other's thoughts this afternoon - I am off for a 7 mile walk with da wife ...
As for Nagin, that guy's the worst flip-flopper. He was a Republican before he ran for New Orleans mayor as a Democrat. Even after his switch, he continued to contribute money to President Bush's re-election campaign. But that's not the worst of it. Earler this year,
he had a DVD put together outlining the evacuation procedures in case of an impending disaster. The DVD basically told New Orlean's poor population that they were on their own.
Now, after the disaster happened and things pretty much went down as had been forseen by him and others, he's pointing fingers and saying the people of his city have been abandoned.
http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/hurricane_hotspots.aspx ..check this out,sounds like they were right on target
What's your take on this?
A Behind the Curtain -- an op-ed piece on the President's staged photo-op tour of New Orleans. Be sure to check out the red supporting links, too.
Sure, all politicians take advantage of photo opportunities, but this is ridiculous! I am truly sick of this two-faced administration.
Peter, You are a pretty/very intelligent guy. Using Keith Oberman instead of your own brain is no different on the left than someone linking to Sean Hannity would be on the right.
It requires not actual thoughts of your own.
Well....Despite the differences of opinion regarding HOW the response to Katrina was handled by the government and associated agencies, I would like to report on HOW the public is at least responding here in Austin, Texas.
My family and I went down to the Austin Convention Center to volunteer assisting the over 3,500 evacuees being housed there. We were instructed to fill out a form and leave it with available times and such. We were not able to volunteer yesterday due to HAVING TOO MANY VOLUNTEERS!
This is a blessing to those who are in need (and those working to meet those needs). The Red Cross are going through the lists of those registered as volunteers and compiling a working schedule to allow as many as can volunteer. Medical personnel were allow to go straight through though...as they can use them at any point.
Donations of money, a box of books, a container of stuffed animals, donations of your time to volunteer, ALL HELP in making a terrible tragedy something not so terrible for those who lived it.
Help in whatever way you can even if it is small...IT ALL HELPS.
Thanks to those who have and continue to help.
WhatFurrer
Here are a couple of pictures which will have people acratching their heads ... The first shows all the incoming lanes on I-10 are empty. In an evac, those lanes should be used, because if you think about it, noone is coming IN.
The second shows some of the unused school buses which COULD have been used to take out those without trasnportation ...
Whatfurrer - Good post. As for why the hundred plus buses went unused, as did the incoming lanes ... Because noone REALLY thought this tragedy was going to occur. It is easy to look back with "we should have done ..... ___________" ...
Point taken, but what about Krugman?
Also,
Barbara Bush is an elitist and a racist. And she raised our President.
Krugman is a reknown political hack. His Op Ed pieces consistantly disagree with non-Op Ed papers he has published.
On Barbara Bush - I'll agree she is elitist, as most super-wealthy are, but racist? That's a pretty harsh liberal rhetoric
Peter - Ripping on an 80 year old woman ? Unbelieveable.
In reply to:
Peter - Ripping on an 80 year old woman ? Unbelieveable.
Age is a factor in whether or not someone should be held to task for their character flaws, especially someone puppeteering what many consider to be the most powerful man in the world?
Hear that right-wing media? Leave Noam Chomsky alone, he's... old...
Bren R.
Bren - First, We are not talking a "character flaw", we are talking about excerpts from her comments yesterday.
Second, I addressed Peter directly, not the "left wing media".
So, I will make it more pointed, any man slamming an 80 year old woman for being "elitist and racist" for what she supposedly said yesterday (and yes, this is assuming the press even got her words correct and complete) is a bully.
If that was said about my 70 year old mother, I would knock whoever said it on his ass.
You can't be serious, craigsub. Unless her actions are a result of senility -- and I suppose there's a slight chance of that -- then I'll 'rip on her' when I feel she deserves it.
How she can possibly think the refugees are better off now is beyond comprehension. Maybe she has no grip on reality any more.
Try to imagine if Hillary Clinton's said that yes, US soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq risk their lives but most of them come from underprivileged backgrounds anyway, so this--this (*chuckles slightly*) is working very well for them because if they survive they won't have to go back to their trailer parks/barrios and the Federal government's hospitality saved them a lot of trouble anyway.
Imagine that -- Drudge, Fox, the Internet right wing thugs would burn her at the stake. And the so-called liberal media would likely follow suit. They'd turn Hillary's mom into this month's Cindy Sheehan -- innocent fodder for another media gangbang.
craigsub, I'll concede that racist was a bit strong a term. Perhaps classist is a better fit. I stand by my choice of the word elitist, though. That Mother Bush is elitist is not really a surprise. But the fact that she said what she did is highly disturbing.
How is Cindy Sheenan innocent fodder?
Peter, I am serious. I am finally at a loss for words when it comes to you.
What a pleasant surprise.
Are we going a bit overboard here ? I think you would have to dig pretty deeply to brand Mrs. Bush as racist (or even elitist) based on that article. I think it would be fair to say that her comments were based on what she said seconds earlier -- that a lot of the people she spoke with were planning to move to Houston permanently :
"Then she added: "What I’m hearing which is sort of
scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is
so overwhelmed by the hospitality."
If people are telling her this (ie they might have a ticket out of a chronically poor area to one with perhaps more opportunity for them) then I don't think it would be wrong (other than maybe a bit of over-generalization) to say that "things were working out well for them".
Flame away, I'm logging off now
In reply to:
If people are telling her this (ie they might have a ticket out of a chronically poor area to one with perhaps more opportunity for them) then I don't think it would be wrong (other than maybe a bit of over-generalization) to say that "things were working out well for them".
I have to agree with you. Even before Katrina, NO was so overrun with corruption, that maybe a change of scenery to a more thriving city might give them a new chance. She never mentions race in any part of that quote.
In reply to:
any man slamming an 80 year old woman for being "elitist and racist" for what she supposedly said yesterday (and yes, this is assuming the press even got her words correct and complete) is a bully.
So if, say, Eva Braun didn't decide to poison herself in 1945, and had lived to present day, and had once again exclaimed those famous words "Better that ten thousand others die than [Adolf Hitler] be lost to Germany" then she'd just be a kindly 92 year old lady that shouldn't be held accountable?
Wow, by your logic, we could arm the elderly as a kind of untouchable super war machine...
"Oh my god... old Missus Cranbottom from down the street has an M4... crazy old b***h!"
"You bully... she's an old lady, invite her in for tea... and stand still so she can shoot you, you know she's got Parkinsons!"
In reply to:
If that was said about my 70 year old mother, I would knock whoever said it on his ass.
Well, maybe Ken and Jeb can meet after school at the Washington Monument and duke it out.
Bren R.
Bren -
I just listened to the audio of this Houston affair, and former President Bill Clinton was with her when she was talking, and ADDED to what she had to say, after agreeing with her.
Mrs. Bush made these comments after dozens of people who were living in New Orleans last week, and are now in Houston as refugees, TOLD her that they wanted to stay in Houston. The reason they wanted to stay in Houston was they like the hospitality they have been shown, AND that they had come from a run down area (inner city New Orleans). In other words, they saw HOPE. The general feeling among the 15,000 in the Astrodome was that Houston was a LOT better place than the inner city New Orleans they knew from before the hurricane.
The concept that these people were underpriviledged was not one she pulled out of the air. She was TOLD this by the refugees in Houston.
Barbara Bush is a lady, and acts as a lady should. The word "underpriviledged" was her way of softening what she was told to her by those to whom she spoke.
There was not ONE racist term used, nor anything elitist.
Bill Clinton had this to say: "I feel pretty good about what I saw today." and "A lot of people want to stay here in Houston" ... and the discussion continued with how could the nation's 4th largest city (Houston) handle this many refugees wanting to relocate there.
So YES - Anyone wanting to slam an 80 year old woman for saying what she said is a bully.
As for your comparing her to Eva Braun, You managed to out do Peter.
See, now at least that's debating the topic at hand, which I have no problem with... what she said could be construed many different ways, and then partisan politics comes into play on how she meant it.
Saying that she has the right to not have her feet put to the fire because she's a woman and she's old, that's something that I can't relate to. Anyone in the public eye in a similar capacity will be, and should be, constantly checked and balanced.
"Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism," as Thomas Jefferson once said.
Bren R.
Bren - She was called a racist. That is not debate. There is little one can be called that is worse than "racist". It was stated as a fact. It was also said about her without her being able to defend herself. That is a tactic of a bully, Slamming a defenseless individual.
And yes, An 80 year old lady DOES deserve to be treated differently than, say, a 50 year old man. If you don't think so, it is a free country, but in my world, the elderly AND ladies are treated with some reverence.
As for your "debate" comment - I agree with debate. However, Peter does not debate, he links to yet another left wing blog as "proof" of his "point".
Finally, She was in Houston as a private citizen, not as an elected official. I am not sure what "Dissent" has to do with smearing a private citizen, but I am sure you and Peter can justify that, too.
I don't link to 'prove' anything. I do link to items that, at least to me, speak to an issue, bring in outside viewpoints, and encourage discussion. Sometimes my linked articles/opinions are actually discussed without being dismissed out-of-hand because they don't come from a major news source. Sometimes they don't. I'll be the first to admit some sources are more credible than others. I do get carried away in my attempts to process info from many sources.
I did not have the entire story about Mrs. Bush when I posted. You kindly provided a convincing rebuttal that contained the context of her statement which I was unable to find at the time. Please don't think I'm one who believes he is in the right all of the time. I'm a reasonable person trying to process an unreasonable world.
Peter, you made a declarative IN your link (and often do), which took us to the "proof".
And don't you think actually getting the truth from a reliable source such as actually listening to the whole interview with Mrs. Bush and former President Clinton (and others) would be a more reasonable approach ?
I could link about 200 right wing whack job sites to counter your 200 left wing whack job sites. However, even though I am a conservative, I think the right wing whack jobs are just that ... NUTS. They are driven by the same hatred as are the left wing sites to which you refer. They just hate different people.
Ok ... Time for some levity mixed with Irony. Picture this: Peter comes back with a link which describes why posting a link is an acceptable debate style ...
craigsub is personally responsible for all the damage in New Orleans, but you don't have to take my word for it.
This website lays it all out for you.
OK, that makes more sense. I was starting to lose the picture for a while.
If you follow pmbuko's link to "kittenwars" things start to get confusing again.
I hear they have good chili and beer in Houston.
Has anyone's personal beliefs been changed by all of this? If not, how about we stop all the hate and discontent and get back to talking about geeky things like speakers and electronics. Huh?
Ash ...
In reply to:
However, even though I am a conservative, I think the right wing whack jobs are just that ... NUTS. They are driven by the same hatred as are the left wing sites to which you refer. They just hate different people.
In reply to:
Because noone REALLY thought this tragedy was going to occur. It is easy to look back with "we should have done .....
In reply to:
Finally, if we are to be intellecually honest, There is not anyone who would have been better prepared than those people at the state, local, and federal levels than what we have today. We have never seen anything like this. ever.
This is all I have been trying to convince people about. We had an unprecendented disaster. 90,000 square miles affected. And everyone involved in trying to help the problem is human.
Who do we blame ?
1. The mayor of New Orleans for not following his own evac plan ?
2. The mayor for leaving over 500 school buses empty ?
3. The governor for not having her National Guard in place ?
4. Private Citizens for deciding this was a party ?
5. New Orleans Police, for releasing inmates ?
6. Michael Chertoff, for being too slow ?
7. George W. Bush, for whatever reason ?
8. Bill Clinton, because he could have fixed this 8 years ago, but he was consorting with an intern ? (that was dry humor)...
Or do we realize that NOONE is to blame. It was a disaster. We need to help those who need it. We need to learn from this.
Sadly - what will happen is finger pointing, political grandstanding, and "told ya so's".
I agree completely that no one group is to blame. Having said that, the general level of "studiousness" of our governments these days is NOT at the same level it was a generation ago (and I'm not even old enough be be remembering the good old days yet).
Some of this can probably be blamed on a more ignorant, shallow electorate not choosing the candidates with demonstrated ability and willingness to tackle the hard problems, but I also think as a continent we have all become more short-sighted and replaced acceptance of hard reality with wishful thinking.
I see the same thing at a corporate level so I am not just blaming our governments here, but to say "we could not have done better" is IMO unacceptable. We do seem to have the foresight to steer just clear of the worst disasters (catastrophic failure of a nuclear plant, accidental release of man-made plagues) but we still have the capability to cause permanent damage to our environment and cause worse disasters than the levee failures in NO.
As our population grows, the population density in our cities rises and we push urban growth into more corners of the world we need smarter and tougher government to deal with the issues and avoid bigger and "badder" disasters.
We are going to have to get back to the point where government is filled with hard working geeks again rather than just lawyers and drones. Put a bunch of us in the LA and NO governments in the right places and I think the NO disaster would have been much less severe... but how many of us would consider working in government these days ?
THAT, folks, is the real problem we have to deal with.
Bridgman - You inspired me. I am waiting for a report to be sent to my office, so I took some time to research...
Hurricane Camille hits August 17, 1969. Here are some excerpts from the news of the time. :
In reply to:
The morning after the storm, thousands crawled from beneath the wreckage in southern Mississippi, wandering zombie-like through the blasted landscape. *** In the first few days after the storm, normal society ceased to function. Immediately 15,000 people were homeless, there was no water, food, or fuel.*** The storm had wiped out all means of communication, and roads, bridges, airports, and even railways were impassable or destroyed. The Gulfport Hospital closed - and evacuated all 800 patients to hospitals in the center of the State. Adding to the devastated landscape, was a serious and growing vermin control problem.
Using federal troops and state police, all roads leading into the area where the eye had crossed the coast were sealed off. Military and local police imposed a curfew. The first problem to overcome was the thousands of dead farm animals, pets, and wildlife. Camille's incredible storm surge had drowned thousands of animals. Heavy equipment was brought in to bury thousands of dead cows, horses and pets. Next, insects and rodents had quickly overrun the stricken area - feeding on dead animal carcasses and rotting food. Rattlesnakes, fire ants, and rats bit dozens of victims as they sifted through the rubble. In an attempt to control fire ants, low flying spray planes roared up and down the Mississippi coast, dropping 100,000 pounds of mirex.
The state and federal government supplied thousands of bulldozers and dump trucks to cart away the twisted wreckage. Some of the debris was simply burned. What was not burned - was buried. Convoys of dump trucks continued removing debris, day after day for the rest of 1969.
Note the words inside the *** ________*** ... Basically, the federal response back then started arriving five days after the storm had passed.
And it is amazing how humor ands up with some truth - I have actually found websites which DO blame Bill Clinton for this. I wonder if there is one which will blame either Janet Reno or Newt Gingrich ...
>>I agree completely that no one group is to blame.
I should also say that the real crime here was lack of alignment between city, state and federal plans. If you assumed that city and/or state plans covered getting the population OUT of the city then the federal response was quite reasonable. If you assume that the feds have responsibility for everything including getting people out of town in the first place, then they dropped the ball big time.
I guess the big question is "under the US laws, what responsibility does each level of government have with regards to disaster planning and execution ?".
I was under the impression that National Guard was always under federal control when reacting to an emergency, but other posts have indicated that they are normally under state control unless the Feds step in (and offer to pay ??).
bridgman, National Guards are under each state's control, and can only be ordered into action by that state's governor. Specifically speaking, there is an Alabama National Guard.
As for evac plans, each municipality (through its police force) is responsible for evacuating a city, with assistance from the State Police and National Guard.
The federal government's role is to aid and assist the local governments after the event - typically in clean up, long term housing and rebuilding.
That being said, a governor CAN ask for federal assistance and can also turn over control of the National Guard to Federal control, and the President can take control of a National Guard unit for a Federal mission.
Here is an excerpt from the Pennsylvania National Guard's mission statement :
In reply to:
During peacetime, the Governor, through the State Adjutant General, commands the Pennsylvania Guard forces. The Governor can call the Guard into action during local or statewide emergencies, such as storms, drought, and civil disturbances, to name but a few. Additionally, the President of the United States (Commander-In-Chief) can activate the National Guard to participate in Federal missions. Examples of this are the many Pennsylvania Guard units that over the years have deployed to support operations in theaters overseas or here in the States.
Interesting... thanks !!
That begs the question "why is everyone beating on the Feds then ?". Obviously a devastated state will require help from Guards corps outside the state, presumably by either asking other states for help or having the federal government request control of the NG from other states.
I still think SOMEONE should have jumped in after it became apparent that the evacuation had missed 100,000 or so people, and that resources from other states or federal government were probably the only ones in a position to do so (assuming the gulf states were overwhelmed, which is a reasonable assumption) but I certainly hadn't realized how much of disaster planning was a city and state responsibility.
Geez, it's nice to be able to blame the Democrats instead
Talking politics on a public forum where anonymity is common place, there is no accountability for one’s words, and anyone can claim whatever identity they wish…….. Didn’t y’alls parents teach you anything? What’s next, right to life and religion?
This thread needs to go away, badly…….I will not view it again.
I've met with enough regulars face to face that I do not feel anonymous on this forum. I could get away with a lot more crap if I were as careful about concealing my identity as, say, JohnK.
I cleverly disguise myself by using my surname as a handle and posting my full name and home town in my profile. Seriously, my parents are in their late 80s and weren't able to teach me much about Netiquette. Everything I know I learned from GeneticDrift
Whoops, and here I learned my netiquette from IRC and Usenet.
"Is 'stupid poop face' two words or three?"
U SUCKZ000000RRRRRRR!!!!!!ONE111!!n00B!!11!!
Bren R.
If you are typing in all caps then it's three words. If you are using upper and lower case then one word if you are a programmer, two words if you are under 13, and three words for the rest of us.
I just heard that Bush went to Congress for an additional $52B to help rebuild New Orleans. All I can say is that for $52 billion I hope New New Orleans will be a few feet ABOVE sea level. I know prices are higher than they used to be, but $52B should still buy a lot of fill
bridgman, that was PRICELESS.
I've seen that sentiment on a number of boards and I have to disagree.
New Orleans is a unique and enchanting city and deserves to be brought back to life but this time with a more than adequate levee system, decent flood control and a regenerated wetlands area.
I guess... but it would have to be one heck of a levee system. Agree on restoring the wetlands but they won't stop a cat 5 storm surge.
As far as I know "old New Orleans" (the part everyone wants to visit) is already at or above sea level; it's the newer parts where everyone LIVES that were built on the less desireable land below sea level.
I'm talking about the parts which have to be rebuilt anyways; might as well rebuild above sea level. The French Quarter wouldn't be touched...
The biggest problem facing a rebuilt New Orleans is subsidence -- both of the levees and the land they protect, and of the wetlands. The very thing that makes New Orleans so important to our economy, besides tourism, happened to be a factor in its destruction.
The local oil and gas industries have been removing oil and gas deposits from beneath the Gulf coast for decades. It was believed that the deposits were deep enough not to affect the wetlands, but that belief has since been proven terribly wrong. The land under the wetlands has steadily subsided and removed New Orleans' and a large chunk of the Gulf coast's first line of defense against storms. Restoring wetlands, while not impossible, is made more difficult still by a changing climate and rising ocean levels.
Subsidence of dry land is also an issue. If New Orleans was filled with enough dirt to bring it above sea level, the weight of that dirt would accelerate the rate at which the land is already subsiding. It's a sticky issue.
I agree that the city should definitely be rebuilt, and that a modern levee system needs to be created. I was listening to NPR the other day and they were using the term "Disneyfication" while discussing the rebuilding process. People are saying there's a great risk of the rebuilt New Orleans being a "Main Street Disneyland" version of the former reality.
Lots of tough decision lie ahead for this city.
>>The local oil and gas industries have been removing oil and gas deposits from beneath the Gulf coast for decades.
Ouch. Good point. Normally that means the smart money buys land about 20 miles inland and waits patiently for it to become waterfront ;(
Fire, meet fuel...
Reader comments from a righty website:
"... [Y]ou have to consider that these people were essentially surplus. In other words, the least-functional 20% of the population of New Orleans has been eliminated. That obviously INCREASES the overall functionality of the New Orleans population."
A little Josef Mengele, anyone?
Bren R.
wow, that's pretty horrible that someone would even think that, much less say it.
Bren, Once again, "righty website?".
First, I cannot find the quote.
Second, It appears that IF the quote is present, it is from the forum conversation taking place, not from some established conservative, as you suggest with your link.
I am, as I type this, looking at a left wing blog in which people are calling for President Bush to be executed. If someone posted a link titled "What Democrats think", with this one gem I am reading, it would be wrong.
The quote: "All those who voted for Bush are responsible for Genocide in New Orleans, and should be tried and hanged"...
If we are going to have a reasonable conversation, then avoiding irresponsible "quotes" is necessary.
Let's give everybody a second shot at all of this
I see "Soon to be Hurricane" Ophelia is circling around in my back yard right now,(literaly)trying to decide which way to go.(the last four hour track is straight at ME
, make My MREs Chicken, please) The computer models say she may hit Georgia, some say it may head for the Miami area. It just ain't certain.
The Wife said she heard on the news that some of the counties north of us have already canceled schools
Hey!...it's only a storm right now.....and nobody has the slightest clue where it's heading
Ouch ... I heard yesterday that Ophelia could drop 15 inches of rain there, too. To all Florida residents, winters in Pennsylvania are starting to look pretty. We will make room for you... so come on up !
Great news, Craig; there are a lot of us here in Florida who will be starting up a caravan of vehicles real soon
.....
....just as soon as the price of gasoline drops a bit
I just read a first-hand account by a few emergency medical workers who were attending a conference in New Orleans when Katrina hit. They were treated worse than cattle by local law enforcement. I couldn't believe what I was reading.
http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman/publish/article_18337.shtml
"I couldn't believe what I was reading."
Probably a good idea.
Did you guy's see the picture below that is floating around the net? Given what some are saying about Bush and how he has handled things to date, it falls under the picture is worth a thousand words category!
MSNBC is reporting that the head of FEMA, Michael Brown, is being removed from his Katrina role. This is what happens when your federal government gets too big and people start relying on it way too much.
That's just a teensy bit 100% fake.
For some real pics of New Orleans before, during, and after the hurricane, check out
this haunting photo essay.
But didn't the President say, just a few short days ago, "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job!" ??
Here's the (lord, he's not actually linking)
Fox News article about the removal.
This is the best news I've heard this week.
EDIT:
This Time article shows some reasons why 'Brownie' might have been let go. He seems to be an expert resume padder.
Great photo essay.
The resume padding is an example of what frustrates me about the government. If he had applied for a private sector job using that resume, he would have been snagged and immediately fired. But because we are dealing with the government and its all about politics, credentials rarely matter and its about who you know. Then, we end up with a bunch of no-talents in important positions like head of FEMA. I think it is pretty ironic that Wal-Mart, for all of its faults, ended up providing better emergency care than the city and state governments.
So far my company, The Principal Financial Group has raised almost $500,000 which is a combination of the companies donation, and employee contributions/company match.
Unfortunately, but expectedly, he's not being fired, just relieved of his Katrina duties -- presumably to return to Washington so he can resume his regular duties.
I smell a scapegoat.
That's awesome, sirquack!
In reply to:
The resume padding is an example of what frustrates me about the government. If he had applied for a private sector job using that resume, he would have been snagged and immediately fired. But because we are dealing with the government and its all about politics, credentials rarely matter and its about who you know. Then, we end up with a bunch of no-talents in important positions like head of FEMA. I think it is pretty ironic that Wal-Mart, for all of its faults, ended up providing better emergency care than the city and state governments.
Amen to that! Hopefully more people will pay attention to political appointees qualifications in the future - and that appointments are based more on merit than reward - no matter which party (i know, i know, rose-colored glasses).
The thing that really raises my hackles is the fact that a former co-worker of mine worked very hard on the Kerry campaign. If Kerry would have won, that "no talent ass clown" would have had a mid-level analyst job at either the White House or State Department. We were just discussing today at how poorly he worked here, how would he do in the government? Scary thought!
Here is a link and an excerpt from "Hurricane Jim" ... This guy is on heckuva man. He is the leader of a hurricane chase team, and gave a live "blow by blow" of the situation from ground zero. He is not a politcal guy, nor a reporter either. Expect bluntness ...
http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23436&start=1
excerpts ...
In reply to:
As I have said before, Air OPs kind of saved the day. Despite a lot of smack being tossed around in the media and by "Pundits" who are as about as qualified to comment on SAR operations as the desk this laptop is sitting on, this was a miracle effort. With New Orleans completely oblivious to the atmospheric A-Bomb that was bearing down on them, it's a wonder anyone got out. Both New Orleans leadership and in no small measure the booze driven, "Don't worry, be happy" culture down there, is where the majority of blame lies for this.
This was America's "Dunkirk" operation and it is really infuriating that all we seem to hear from media, pundits and a mayor who at the end of the day was responsible for his city is criticisms and scandal mongering
Yes, some elements to this operation were a jack up, but when faced with the magnitude of this, it's simply amazing anyone got out fo there at all. 30 years ago and we'd be looking at a Bangladesh in '91 scenario.
What the "Pundits" also don't seem to get, and what a lady during my Live at Five interview last night pointed out, is that the affected area down here is the size of Great Britain, it wasn't just New Orleans. NO just happened to be the most dramatic and most accessable to media (and even then, they didn't ford the waters and push deep like we did with the small boats). Down on the Gulf Coast, the roads were largely impassable, so you didn't get to see what went on out there so much. (and NO had a serious concentration of very photogenic helicopter action going on)
AND....places like Biloxi, Gulf Port, etc had mayors and local officials who actually LEAD and got those mandatory evac orders out the minute they settled into the crosshairs....unlike a certain mayor to their west (whose bar district was in full swing as the first feeder bands came onshore). Where was the forced closures? Where was the loudspeaker trucks? Where was anything besides storm chasers like us cluing people in to exactly what was coming down on them in the NO sector?
Doug Kiesling saved god knows how many people when he showed up on Bourbon St. in his disaster gear and started putting out the word.
The mayor of Kenner Parish to the west of NO didn't seem to have a problem getting out there and leading his emergency response people from the front, going door to door, ordering a mandatory. Where was NO mayor? That still hasn't been answered. "Where were you the night of...." I'd like to know.
Between the boat crews who had riots break out at their offload points, to the mechanics who worked to keep the birds flying until they didn't know what day it was, to the locals from Baton Rouge who trailered down their boats and just pushed in, it was a miracle operation. As bad as it was, suprisingly enough, it could have been much, much worse.
Take it from someone who knows how these things play out in the real world, on the ground.
Thanks for that link, craig. First-hand accounts that haven't gone through the media filter are great to read.
Hurricane chasers? Jeez. I can't say I'm surprised they exist, but that takes a hell of a lot more balls than tornado chasing.
EDIT: After viewing
this video (WMV) linked from the site, it seems like they just never lost that teenage "I'm invincible" feeling.
The pics that show where Jim's party was in respect to the hurricane were scary as he!! ... Peter, I am with you. Deliberately waiting for a hurricane to run one over seems NUTS !!
Ironically ... Jim is the same name as the guy who actually DID the work on "Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom" ... Wrestling alligators, anacondas, boars ...etc ...
Maybe there is something to that name ...
From the Coast Guard, late Tuesday night, August 30 ...
In reply to:
PLUCKED TO SAFETY Police took boats into flooded areas to rescue some of the stranded and others were plucked off rooftops by helicopter. The Coast Guard helped rescue 1,200 in New Orleans on Monday night and thousands more all along the Gulf Coast on Tuesday. "We've been pulling them off sometimes four at a time, sometimes as many as 12," said Coast Guard Petty Officer Larry Chambers. "People are being taken to the nearest dry spot then the helicopter's going back and picking up more people." New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin reported bodies floating in the city's floodwaters, which may have measured 20 feet (6 metres) deep in places. New Orleans is a bowl-like city mostly below sea level and protected by levees or embankments. The levees gave way overnight in places, including a 200-foot (60 metre) breach that allowed the lake waters to pour into the city center. Blanco said a plan was being developed to evacuate the Superdome, which had no electricity, and other shelters.
The Coast Guard, as is often the case, were unsung heroes in this ... 1200 people rescued the night of the hurricane ? WOW ..
Peter, that was quite the video...
Craig
Thanks for the link. That was __________ I paused here for many minutes. I can't even find the words. Looking at those pictures just tore me up.
My son just got back this morning. he looked exhausted. We talked only a minute. I told him I was very interested to hear his account but that I thought he should get some rest. I mistakenly said his group was going to NO. They were actuallly in Miss. Not sure of any other details. He said he met and worked with some woderful people from Army, National Guard, FEMA and private sector. I'll get more after a good days sleep and some home cooking.
oz
President Bush takes responsibility for slow federal response
I guess they decided it was finally time to play the blame game. This is so far out of character for the current administration, but I suppose the evidence was so overwhelming that to do anything but cop to it would have been viewed as weak.
Regardless, I commend the President using his cojones.
Peter, Your post makes no sense. How is this playing the "blame game" ?
My entire post makes no sense or that particular comment makes no sense? Perhaps you could have said "Peter, I don't understand what you meant by this?"
I'll provide you with some background. Up until today, everyone in a position of power -- including Democrats -- was blaming others until asked directly what they themselves could have done better. Then they answered with "Well, I don't think it's time to play the blame game."
By taking the blame, President Bush entered the blame game honorably by pointing a finger at himself. That is what I meant. Sorry I was unclear.
I can't help but think, however, that this acceptance of blame will make less effective any probes into what precisely went wrong and who under the President was to blame for the government's response. The man on top takes the blame, rightly, but does that let everyone else off the hook?
Correct...It was not "really" directly the President's fault for the response...but someone under him...I also hope this does not dilute any investigations...
WhatFurrer
I hope people do not use this apology to absolve the state of LA and the city of NO of any incompetance. Somehow, I think people forget that the federal government is not supposed to be the fine line of defense. The last thing our federal government needs is more power.
Peter, I realize I will be in the minority on this for quite some time, partially because of how this entire event has been reported, and partially because people look at this and say : "I am going to blame the other party". I still think the response from the federal government (this means The Coast Guard, National Guard units outside the affected states, Homeland Security, and the military) has been extraordinary.
For example, your link stated "Bush takes responsibility for slow response".
Yet, here are the quotes from the President:
In reply to:
"Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government," Bush said at a joint White House news conference with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani.
"And to the extent that the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility. I want to know what went right and what went wrong," said Bush.
I'm not going to defend the process going in, but I am going to defend the people who are on the front line of saving lives," he added. "I also want people in America to understand how hard people are working to save lives down there in not only New Orleans, but surrounding parishes and along the Gulf Coast."
Next, I may have missed this, but can you point me to where President Bush has blamed anyone else for this disaster ?
So if it's all Bush's fault, does that mean that the feds now have to come up with a disaster preparedness plan for EVERY city in America?
They'll need to look at the infrastructure of every city to identify weak points that may fail in any contingency. No big deal - I'm sure there are plenty of folks in DC intimately familiar with Prado Dam, the topography of Corona (my hometown), and every detail of every other city in the US. Shouldn't be too much work, or too costly, eh?
Or... Perhaps state and municipal gov'ts should be doing the assessing, planning and calculating? Then notify the feds and the public of their disaster plans and what roles the feds and the public might be required to play. That seems to make more sense.
Folks around here are all suddenly concerned about "the big one" again. And the local media is more than happy to fan the flames. They sure love having the public careen from one imaginary (or impending
) crisis to another, don't they?
If it takes constant media stories about impending disasted to get people to assemble an earthquake preparedness kit for their home, I'm all for it.
They need to put a heated dome over North Dakota and Minnesota with a heated grid which is switched on November 1st, then left on until April 15th. I'm all for this and I think gasoline taxes should be raised to pay for it. I'll walk as long as I am can feel the warmth.
"If it takes constant media stories about impending disasted to get people to assemble an earthquake preparedness kit for their home, I'm all for it."
I would be, too, except if the disaster doesn't hit in the next few months they'll have the public all in a frenzy about ____________________ by then. Can't keep going on and on about "the big one" year after year. Six months from now the public crisis that has everybody's knickers in a twist will be something else (missing teens, corporate scandal, leaked memos, whatever).
Disaster kits have to be maintained; fresh batteries, fresh water, rotating fresh food stocks, etc... Assuming the public lacks the discipline to do the job, a burden falls on gov't to provide for the public good. A distant centralized gov't seems less well suited to the management and disbursement of such reserves as do local gov'ts. Shorter response/delivery time, better knowledge of the local population's tastes and needs, etc... (Apparently there are no Creole or "soul food" flavored MREs
).
Disasters happen.
Anybody else find the little speech John Roberts gave to the Senate Judiciary Committee moving? I was getting kind of choked up myself, being a sensitive new-age kind of guy.
While we are waiting for all the finger pointing by President Bush ... a hypothetical question:
From this point on, If a hurricane of, say, category 3 or higher, is headed towards any city, should federal troops then force mandatory evacuation ahead of the storm ?
And, if they do, will they be given a total pass so that noone will say they over reacting ?
That's a gross oversimplification. Really what needs to happen is better communication btw. the federal and local govenments. We need to devise a reliable system of disaster management countrywide. This system needs to have both general and state-specific directives. Where that line is between federal and state needs to be solid, not fuzzy.
If creating a hard storm severity evacuation threshhold is what a state and the feds agree on, then so be it.
Peter, You are basing this on what you are reading from the mouths of journalists. I still think people will eventually look at the response from the various factions of the Federal government and wonder how they did this operation so well.
I have a very good friend who is an army helicopter pilot. What I am getting from him is not even CLOSE to what the media is telling us.
And Peter, I know you think what I posted was "over simplified", it wasn't. I think people will scream bloody murder the first time they are forced to leave their homes and the hurricane misses.
Those people are the same that are screaming now.
Well, I've been away for a long while, wow did this thread grow... not gonna even pretend to say I read it all either.
Just wanted to say that since I posted this I have seen some support from rest of the world and I am thankful for that. In fact it reached the point that really surprised me. Thats a good thing.
Inane - good to see you back...
And - for those who want a different perspective, The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has this editorial:
The Post Gazette is not exactly a right wing magazine, either...
The Feds don't suck nearly as much as the media wants you to believe they do
In reply to:
"Journalists who are long on opinions and short on knowledge..."
This just about covers nearly all of them.
In the "Golden Age" of TV, there was one half hour of local news and one half hour of national and world news.
The "Important" stuff was fairly well covered by respected news folk in three reasonably well balanced news networks.
"Breaking News" was covered in a two or three minute interruption of the normal programming.
Something significant took place to change things in the 60s.
