I bought a bunch of unlabeled solder last year at a garage sale. It was supposed to be plumbing solder, but, as I was doing a LOT of plumbing of copper hot and cold water lines today, I noticed that it was spitting and sputtering a lot, but seemed to be working just fine. Well, after a few hours of work today, it is still eating at me that it was spitting/sputtering so I looked closely at the spool of solder and came across a number that I searched the internet for.
Long story short, it was Dutch Boy Lead Free, Rosin Code solder P/N 93295.
LINK This is supposed to be for electronics, so am I totally screwed on all of my hard work today?
I've found out that it contains tin, copper, and core flux.
PLEASE HELP!
My understanding is that plumbing solder just has an evil,corrosive but very effective acid flux, while electronic solder has a gentle, non-corrosive but much less effective rosin fluc. The rosin flux protects the molten solder from oxygen but not much else, while the acid flux gives you a decent chance of soldering grungy materials together.
If the joints look good (ie the solder flowed onto the metal) they should be OK. I don't think rosin core solder will do any harm, although the opposite (acid flux for electronics) tends to be really bad news.
Then again, I don't know squat about plumbing so...
Thanks bridgman. I was able to inspect some of the joints after I did them, and if I look inside the pipe, I can see the solder on the inside of the joints like I should be able to. Not big glops of solder, but it just looks like someone made the inside edge, right where the parts come together, shiny silver (solder) colored.
Does anyone know where I can search for the answer to this? I have about another 2 hours of work before I am done, and I would abviously like to know before that if I have to start all over.
I did a bit of searching around and found a few things :
1. Not sure what the US rules are, but a lot of countries have banned the use of lead-based solder for plumbing. Lead-free is not a problem other than being more of a pain to work with.
2. Rosin core solder seems to work OK on copper pipe as long as everything is clean. If it's not clean, acid core works better. Rosin core is useless on stainless steel which is a factor for some plumbing work but not (I imagine) for your case.
Others please jump in...
I tried to find out if one can use ‘electronic’ solder on copper pipe in my code book. Nothing specific to that regards. It simply refers to ASTM B32 (Standard Specification for Solder Metal).
In potable water systems, code requires the use of lead free solder. Lead helps the solder flow around the fitting easier. All lead free solder still contains trace amounts of lead, and none are actually 100% lead free. In 07 all lead free solder is to have no more than .02% lead. I think the max allowable is 2% right now.
Solder manufactures are now incorporating nickel to replace lead. Bridgit ‘nickel-bearing’ solder already meats the newer standard.
All that being said, I really don’t know what to tell you. I haven’t ran across this problem before. You are the first, congratulations!!
Copper solder is made up of several different allows to make it flow, adhere, and resist burst pressures / expansion and contraction stresses. Silver is one of those alloys. I don’t know if electronic solder contains silver. I also don’t know if it has comparable yield strength as copper solder.
Also, copper solder doesn’t have a flux core. You use an acid based flux to clean the joint from proper bonding (in addition to manual cleaning of the joints). Nocorode is what 80% or so of the plumbers I know use. Some local code governing areas require the use of water soluble flux, and it’s a pain to use.
All that non-helpful rambling aside, if you are sweating joints that will be in walls, I’d re-do them. You will always wonder about them leaking. Sweat the electronic solder out and break them apart. Clean the piss out them with your emery cloth; get a roll of Bridgit solder and some Nocorode flux. Apply heat to the joints 180 deg away from where you lay the solder to draw it into the joint. Wipe the joints with a rag, your acid brush or your gloves.
Then you’ll be able to sleep at night not worrying about water spraying all over the place.
It might be cheaper and easier to put a bunch of those little X-10 cameras in the walls to monitor the solder joints instead
Can't help ya Nick, our house uses PEX lines, no solder needed...
Well, I decided to do it all over again. My time is more valuable to me than a few bucks, so I went out and bought all new elbows, joints, and such, plus made sure that I had plenty of the plumbing solder and plumbing flux (which I did already). Instead of undoing all of the joints, cleaning the crap out of them, and starting over, I spent about $10 on replacements and just used my pipe cutter to cut the connections out, saving any usable length of straight pipe. This was really helpful where I had a section that ran along some duct work, then had to turn up and then over the duct, then back down and then turn yet again to continue down the duct work path. Instead of 16 joints (8 for the hot run and 8 for the cold run), it was 4 quick cuts and I was done.
I've also noticed that the plumbing solder is stiffer than the other, and also melts faster, even though it is rated at a temperature as high at the electic solder. This makes for much paster re-soldering.
Thanks for the tips everyone. I wish I didn't have to do it over, but at least I caught it now and not after I had hooked it in to the main hot and cold lines running through the house and then sprung a leak!
PEX is cool!
I could have strung the "pipe" tubing in 20-30 minutes max, and then just had the plumber connect them when I was ready to finish the bathroom. Now I have to run 2 lengthly, curving runs of copper, and then cap them off so that I can finish the back half of the basement, and then this summer, get the plumber to come in and do the bathroom. PEX would have been a lot easier.
I take it there's no copper-PEX coupler yet?
Yes, there is a copper/pex adapter. Pex is the way to go. I tried to run it in my house when I built it, but it wasn't recognized by state code. I spent months fighting with the state chief plumbing inspector to get it adopted, but he wouldn't budge. The local building department told me I could run it but they wouldn't give me a certificate of occupancy or sign off on the final inspection. Without that, I couldn't get financing. I had my attorney draft a certified complaint and nasty letter basically informing the city they would be liable if the copper failed (this community is plagued by pin hole leaks in copper and no one knows why) they actually mandate the use of type L copper just because of this).
The state adopted pex a year later. I was told that my argument and fight with the state and city is why they did it. I’m still worried about the 4000’ of copper throughout my house. – log homes take some very creative plumbing and extra…..oh everything.
Good decision replacing those fittings. I just figured you may have been committed to the lengths and couldn’t cut them out. In the future though, if you get them good and hot, you can get most of the solder out with your brush.
If I may ask, what is the square footage of you log home, just courious as I have been involved in building some rather large homes along with a couple of log homes, and never have come close to using 4000 feet of copper pipe for H/C water supply.
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PEX has been some what approved here in CA, but still have a few things like not witin 18" of a hot water tank and similar pain in the rear things.
4700, split level with five seperate levels.
I also have radiant floor heat with six seperate zones with supply/return home runs to each zone's manifolds. Four bathrooms, two kitchens and the spa room with hot/cold water.
I have just as much wire in the house too. I ran 300' for one ceiling fan with four way swithcs.
Well the main PEX "manifold" or whatever they call it is copper, and at some point the ends get coupled to copper I believe just because of compatability issues with most fixtures. So I guess that I could have run a pair of PEX lines with copper on each ends, but I am not sure that it would be up to code to mix it up like that. Of course, the runs will soon be covered by drywall, so nobody would know...
Well, I have almost all of it back together now, but I am calling it a night. I just need to turn off the water, drain as much of the water in the house, cut the main feeds for the house (with several buckets ready), then put the 'T' into place, and then put a short straight piece from that to the pipes I ran. So 4 soldered joints per line, then time to test it all out. Of course, the best time to cut the water to the house is in the morning just in case something goes wrong, but I am working all week, and my parents are visiting us this coming weekend. That is why I wanted to get this done yesterday, but oh well. Life will go on.
In reply to:
log homes take some very creative plumbing and extra…..oh everything.
Oh crap yeah... watching contractors devise all these floating interior walls and what they've developed to allow the logs to settle over time - slip-joint vent and waste pipes and stuff - it's truly amazing!
Bren R.
I'll never build another..........ever.
Dennis,
I exagerated the copper. Just pulled out some of my files and the total copper was about 2800'. Still an unusual amount for a home, I agree. My supplier had to come by and see what the hell I was doing because he just couldn't understand why I could possibly need so much.
OK. I took a "long lunch" today and finished up attaching my hot and cold water runs to the bathroom. I got them all re-done and connected up, and not a single leak! YIPPY! I did get a little wet when I cut into the source lines where I needed to tie into them, but that doesn't count.
Thanks for your help everyone.
In reply to:
I tried to run it in my house when I built it, but it wasn't recognized by state code.
Yeah, we have a lot of inspectors here who have the same attitude. All they can do is cite archaic codes and standards. They usually have little common sense. Problem is that they do not want to take the risk of assuming responsibility by accepting the installation. I understand their reasoning but when you are talking about CSA or UL listed products, why would they argue an installation based on manufacturer's recommendations that has gone under myriads of testing to obtain the ratings? It is one of my "pet peeves".
I am currently about to undergo a pex installation from the water meter to distribtution. I am using IPEX. A very reputable company that stands behind their products. My current copper distribution is a rat's nest. Most of it is about 50+ years old so I feel good cutting it out. The longest part of the installation will be the soldering (kitec to copper sockets) for each fixture (unless I can terminate with a copper spigot right off the pex pipe to connect the flexible braid pipe). But then again, it does not take long to solder those connections.
The other side of the coin though is when they jump on a new product too quickly and it turns out to not be safe or useful.
Remember Ufee? Urea formaldehyde?
Bren R.
Very true. And not all PEX is equal. Apparently any PEX manufacturing process that uses T-butyl peroxide (breaks down T-butanol and methyl-tert-butyl ether) has been known to contaminate water in homes. These components are also found in gasoline, apparently. Not something you want to imbibe.
As near as I can tell, there was not a recommendation to remove this type of piping. Rather, they recommend that people simply flush their lines (run the water for a bit) before using.
In reply to:
4700, split level with five seperate levels.
Cripes... you running a bed and breakfast? We're at 1250 sq ft on three levels and still have two rooms of the house we never use.
Bren R.
<dirty thoughts>
never???
</dirty thoughts>
B&B was the plan when I was drafting it. Just couldn’t get used to the idea of dealing with strangers on a daily basis, so now it’s just me, my boy on weekends and the lil lady. One of the bedrooms is being transformed into a HT room, another one is going to get a pool table instead of a bed and that leaves one set up for guests as they come around, pass out, whatever. After living in a trailer house most of my life while my dad drug us around the country building highways and logging, I learned the value of “space”. Every room is large enough for a full king bed set, most of the walls are ten feet or more….blah blah….It’s nice to have “space”. Not nice to maintain it though; everything is wood. My next home with be brick……lol