First of all, if I had a website, I'd post a diagram for you all... For now, I'll describe the pertinent HT room dimensions in words. The room is 12'9" Wide X 19' Long (once I build a rear wall--it is 35' long right now). Ceiling is 6'7" on the left side of the room, due to two A/C ducts (4' wide). The other 2/3 of ceiling on the right will be about 7.5' when finished (drop ceiling). I will have 2 rows of four seats, about 11 and 16ft back, both butted up to the left wall. I know the leftmost seats will not be ideal for listening, but it's better to have them than not...
Can you picture it so far?
I have 110" WIDTH to mount my PJ screen onto, starting from the left wall (under the A/C ducts) to the door frame. On the right side is a door that eats up the remaining 43 inches.
Now on to the problem(s):
CHOICE #1 -- 110" diag Perforated screen + Architectural Series LCR
Since I've read about perforated screens altering sound transmission, I'd like to avoid that route. Plus it adds about $1,500 to the cost! If I do that, the left W22 would be about 8" from the left wall, while the right W22 would have a more comfortable 4ft spacing.
CHOICE #2 -- 100" diag Screen + M22 L/R + VP150 under screen
With a 100" Stewart Luxus Screen, total width = 90in. That leaves me with 10" on either side of screen for M22's. If I place them right at the edge of the screen frame, the left M22 is only 3in. from the wall. I could move the screen over a couple inches, without looking bad, giving me 5 inches from the wall to the left channel M22. Again, the right side has no problem. So in this scenario, I'd get a little 'cleaner' sound by not using a perforated screen, but I'm worried about placing the speaker that close to the wall...
CHOICE #3 -- 100" diag Screen + M60 + VP150 under screen
I haven't read of anybody upgrading from M22's to M60's and regretting it. But for my room, M60's are really pushing it. I've got 10" on each side of screen, and the M60's are 9.25" wide. You do the math!! In this scenario, I can't 'right-adjust' my screen a couple of inches, so the left M60 would literally be 1/2" from the wall. That is so close that if I put some sort of acoustic treatment on the wall (which I plan to do), that the 2" thick material would visually (and audibly?) block the left speaker. That sucks!
Other info:
I do not want to decrease screen size below 100in. Why? because 100" sounds cooler than 92"! Also, the smaller the screen, the closer the Optoma H78/H79 (not sure which, yet) projector must be. I want it to be BEHIND the 2nd row, as it will be kinda low, due to ceiling height... but that's another story...
Receiver: probably Denon AVR-3806 - Audessy room EQ should help out with the loss of high frequency sound in Choice #1. Audessy *should* also help even to out whatever frequency gets boosted from corner-loading the left-front speaker. But how much? And what about the difference in reflected sound from the left and right speakers?
Other Axioms will include:
EP500 - up front
EP600 - behind seating
QS8 X 4
For the sake of planning, I'll say that this room will be used 100% for movies & video games.
how about a bank of 22's under the screen? two lefts, two rights, two centers. for your room size, i don't think a single pair of 22's will fill it very well, but if you double them.......i bet they'ld be o-plenty-good-enough. plus the two subs, that would be quite a system!
So you'd also be voting against the W22's for my room size, as well, right? Hmmmm...
As for your idea, the bottom of the 100" screen is only 29" from the floor. I have an entertainment console to store multiple video game systems that is the perfect height to place the VP150 on top of. I can angle the VP150 upwards, but having L/R that low doesn't appeal to me, especially for the people in the 2nd row seating (whose ears will be approx 42" high). The speaker height issue is one of the good points about mounting speakers behind a perforated screen.
Other considerations:
Where would I get 9" speaker stands... have Axiom custom-build them for $220/pr X 2 pairs? I'd rather spend the money on speakers versus stands... which is one reason why I want try to make the M60's happen.
Every good suggestion leads to more problems... But thanks, anyway! I hadn't thought of doubling the M22's. I've literally crossed out hundreds of ideas to get the point I'm at now in the planning process. It better be worth it in the end!
Do you have options for having the sceen higher? 29" is going to cause you problems. The people in the back row will have difficulty seeing over the front row. Trust me, I had to raise my 10ft wide screen higher from my original measurments. My back row is sitting on a 8" riser platform.
Normally, you want the eyes of the people in the front row to be 1/6th to 1/3rd from the bottom. I personally prefer 1/6th or lower. Some people do not like to sit up during the entire movie, and like to recline a bit. If your screen is to low, you won't be comfortable watching the low screen.
http://www.cinegi.com/cgi-bin/riser.cgi
Nope. The absolute maximum height of the top of the screen frame is 79", due to the A/C ducts. The ducts run the length of the house, from the utility room (behind the screen) and out the back of the HT room. I am planning on building a riser for the 2nd row. I didn't even bother to mention that the ceiling will be very low over the left side of row 2... The main room I wanted to buy this house in 2004 was because I had HT plans for the basement. I don't think my wife will agree to move now, just because I'm having difficulty putting it all together! Maybe we'll move again in five years, and I'll build a better HT. Until then, I'm trying to cram as many seats in front of as large a screen as possible with 7.1 sound! It can't/won't be perfect, but I want it to be as good as possible for as many seating positions as possible... thus the EP600/500 combo. At least I'll deliver the proper bass to each seat!
Well then I would recommend you use the above riser calculator, to make sure your 2nd row is high enough so the front row heads don't interfere with the movies, you won't like it if they do. Trust me, I had to raise my screen to accomodate this problem. My guess is you'll need a 10" or 12" riser to make this happen.
Yeah, I've used that riser calculator... a lot. But until I actually get the seats (Berkline 088), I don't know exactly how high the tops of heads will be. I also don't know exactly how far back the 2nd row needs to be in order to recline. I've done a lot of experimenting using "dummy chairs & props" with the screen only 24" from the floor. I think 29" will work fine, but I won't know until for sure until after I spend the money!
So, back to my current problem:
I know it's not ideal to place a speaker right next to the wall. But I don't know WHY. What would happen if I were to do this? Maybe it won't be anything that novice ears would notice... Maybe it would still be better than mounting speakers behind the screen... Maybe the M60's would still sound better than the W22's or M22's...
Maybe...... Does anyone know?
Snug to the wall is not optimum, but definitely better than being too close to the rear wall. Axioms are rear ported and really do need to be about 12” from that wall, maybe a little less. I’d be hesitant to place them closer than 6” from your side wall. Your left will most definitely sound different than the right. I have an M80 crammed into a corner for the time being until my HT room is complete. I can tell you that it MOST DEFINITELY is different.
Sound is as important as video. Probably even more so. If it were me, I’d either go with a smaller screen, or buy that screen material for sound transparency and build my own screen, and put some M60’s behind it. You’d save a few hundred doing it yourself. It’s not all that difficult.
Do you think the difference in your M80's is just a mid-bass "hump" caused by the boundary effect of the wall? Have you tried to EQ it? Since your setup is temporary, I'm guessing not, which leaves me with more hope, at least temporarily! From what I've been able to find on AVS about my situation (which isn't much) the spacing behind the speaker seems to be more important. If the first reflection point is acoustically treated, then it may not be too bad. And whether my left speaker is 1" or 5" or 8" from the wall, won't I have some EQ issues no matter what? Is 1" that much worse than 8" in that regard?
As for building a screen frame and putting M60's behind it... that setup would stick the screen out over two feet into the room!
Geno, my view is that in the size room that you describe three vertical M22s across the front under the screen would be plenty. Mike's suggestion of doubling them up at all positions would allow for 3dB more output, but at this point you shouldn't assume that it would be necessary. It could still remain a possible option for a later addition.
As to the height of the M22s, there's really no necessity to think of raising them 9". My M22s sounded fine right on the floor when experimenting when I first got them, although I don't use them in that fashion. Tilted back slightly with some type of wedge under the front edge, so that the tweeters point toward the ears, they should do very well.
I would definitely go for a slightly smaller screen and put at least m60.
To sacrifice a couple of inches of the screen that nobody would even notice the difference or end up with inferior sound? I think, the choice is clear.
How about keeping the VP150 and putting the M22's under the screen? Most A/V equipment will be hidden in a cabinet built into the right wall. But I want to keep the video games in a console front & center in the room, under the screen, so the game controllers can reach the four front seats. The VP150 would fit perfectly on top of it.
So, in my situation, you are saying that having the M22's at below-ideal height, tilted back, would be better than having the left speaker too close to the wall, giving it a different sound than the right speaker, correct? Remember, the left speaker will be relatively close to the wall, no matter what (8-10" max). If I move it any further, I'll lose the stereo separation for the left seat positions.
Ahh, a vote for the M60's over the screen itself! So, how far from the wall would you say it HAS TO BE to sound correct?
Geno, I think that Gena was just suggesting that you use a smaller screen that would leave enough room underneath it to fit taller speakers, such as M60s.
Identical vertical speakers across the front are my suggestion, but if you can't arrange the game players to leave the center open, then use a horizontal center as you describe. There's no "ideal" speaker height; if the tweeters point to the ears that's the major factor. Also, the woofer cones should if possible be at unequal distances from the floor, front wall and side wall.
That would shrink my screen down to a mere 80" due to the height of my immovable obstacle to the north, the A/V ducts. But let's say I did that... how far would/should the left M60 be from the wall?
Do larger speakers need to be farther from a wall than bookshelf speakers, as a general rule?
I'm aware that all of my options place the speakers very near the screen, which some people say may be visually distracting. But having 3 M60's sticking out 27" from the wall, all RIGHT underneath the bottom of the frame (38" high) may be too awkward looking... ???
Geno, speaker placement doesn't differ depending on size; at least a few inches of "breathing room" should be left for rear ports and woofers should be at unequal distances from the three nearest room surfaces.
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Proposed HT Diagram (NOT to scale):
View from back of room, with my "props"
**Note--wall will be built where measuring tape is on the floor:
Front Wall of HT Room:
Photoshop enhancement of what might be:
Is there any reason not to use the other wall (the right wall in the diagram) as the main wall in the HT setup?
It seems as if it would save you a lot of trouble, since you are building one there anyways.
Honestly, going through the trouble of running some cables a few extra feet for power and what not is definately going to be worth it in your situation. Putting the screen on the wall you are building will make your screen actually centered in the room without being off center, and you won't have to deal with beating yourself up about deciding what to do.
Just a thought :-)
Good luck with your HT, that is a very nice room for it, looks great!
That's what I was just thinking. Then the problems go away, no door.
Geno,
When I say 'different', it isn't tone. It's more like the speaker is in a plywood box.....muffled, just not right. There is nothing that an EQ could do to fix the problem.
I don't know what the minimum is for M60's to be away from a wall, but the 80's should be 8" min and not stuffed into a corner. You may get away with being a little closer with the 60’s, but I just don’t know.
I am a tower speaker advocate, but John is right. the M22's would most likely be 'enough' for that room.
The right thing to do would be to move the screen to the wall you are building unless there’s some driver that kills that option.
Also, keep in mind that a bigger speaker will not be "too much" for a small room.
A bigger speaker will mean more range and a "fuller sound" but will able to be played at louder levels without distortion (hence the term "enough to fill the room").
In that case, the M60's would give a fuller sound down to the mid and upper bass regions than the M22's will. However, the M22's will fit the job very well. I have them and couldn't be happier, but in my situation it is impossible to have floorstanders so I don't have "upgraditis"
.
Good luck!
I would guess there will be a door in the wall for access to the rest of the area, thus having the same screen issue on the new wall.
Bingo, Tharkun!
I will have a matching door when I build the new wall, leaving an aisle from the new door, past the seats, to the door in the picture. Behind the screen is a furnace room & storage area. So my width is the same, no matter which way I face.
Where does that leave me...?
M60's are out of the running, right?
I can put W22's behind a 106" screen, or place M22's below a 100" screen. Distance from the side wall will be equivalent for both cases.
I'll have plenty of bass with twin EP's. Would it be beneficial to "help out" the 22's (and VP150) by setting the crossover at 100hz? I was wondering what frequencies are affected by a "mid-bass hump" by placing a speaker too close to a boundary wall... If 80-100Hz is part of the affected range, then switching that over to the properly located EP's would help, yes?
How about a vote?
1. M22's + VP150 beneath 100" screen
2. W22's + W150 behind 106" perforated screen
3. M60's + 27" CRT if that's what it takes!
#1
Could there be any way, per chance, that you could extend the room by 3 feet (adding to the 19 feet) and have a door to the side?
I'd never be able to get that approved by the zoning committee, AKA my WIFE! Just getting her to OK a wall at all was quite a struggle... People talk about WAF of speakers, but this was an entire wall that she did not want!
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