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For any of you still looking for cables, I just tried MonoPrice for a couple Premium Optical Toslink cables, and for $4.00 bucks a pop, great quality and a superb deal, I'm very impressed with them.

I agree with your comments on Monoprice. I have purchased the below products from them with great price and quality:

25ft DVD/HDMI cable
25ft Component cable
DVD/HDMI adapter
3ft Coax for SPDIF for my HTPC
3ft Toslink

Great stuff and unbelievable prices and delivery.

One of these days I'm going to get new cables. I'm still living with the OEM cable variety...

But, you know, they work. They're just not pretty.

You're just afraid of change... and of the possibility that your cheap OEM cables have been robbing you of clarity and a deeper soundstage for all these years.

No, I'm afraid of spending a couple of hundred bucks on something I'll look at once, twice a year...

This monoprice place is cheap!

They may be cheap, but they have very good quality.

Yeah, I'm stunned by the quality/price ratio. I've got a 15 foot and 35 foot DVI run, so I splurged on the 24 gauge DVI cables and they are REALLY thick and well built. Much as I like my Dayton cables from PartsExpress, and feel I paid a very reasonable price for them, all my future cable purchases will be from Monoprice.

I agree, my HDMI/DVI cable set me back about $23CDN versus the $137 that FutileShop wanted for a Monster version.

Good timing! Just last night I placed an order with them for an HDMI and coax cable. Prices are unbelievable.

Great minds think alike

LOL! I was going to post about it when I got home from work today. You made it much easier.

Got my cables today. Pretty quick delivery. No wonder--checked the return label and they shipped from Rancho Cucamonga. That's like ten minutes away from me. Maybe next time I can ask about picking them up.

All of the orders I placed well doing the HT re-build I used the overnight delivery and they were here between 7-8 am. Great service, as one order they had sent a wrong item, called them and it was here the next morning along with a return shipping label for the wrong item.

Strange--I can't seem to find premium S video cables or premium double RCA. Do they not carry such things?

Ken, it seems that they don't attach "premium" to their S-Video cables, but is the term meaningful? Note that on some of their cables that they do call "premium" they're unusually frank in describing the difference as "w/fancy connector".

For what it's worth, Total Signal does call their S-Video and stereo audio cables "premium".

I'm just thinking that a double RCA at the non-premium level is likely to be almost exactly what I'm using now, so there's not a whole lot of point.

Yep.

Good cables, good prices....but for me some of the slowest shipping I've seen from the US. I'm in Canada. Using USPS I still usually get thing in under 2 weeks. These cables took 2 days shy of a month to get to me. Probably held up in Customs for some reason.

regardless, I'd order from them again but not if I was in a rush.

Careful!! Cables do make a difference!! Don't be lured in by low prices. Cables are often times the most over looked part of a home audio system. Spending several hundred to a thousand on cables will make a world of difference! Kimber Kable makes great sounding products that aren't incredibly pricey. Like anything, quality and prices are endless with audio/video cables. I have listened to the Purist Audio Design cable "Dominous" 12ft pair costs $18,000 bucks! Yes, they sounded amazing!

Monster Cable is cheap, as in quality! You are paying for their name and marketing costs. Kimber Kable uses superior materials and sound amazing as well. If you can afford the best go for Purist Audio Design! The Dominous cable is their highest priced, but they have others that are not nearly as much. I would go for the Musaeus cable line. Purist is far superier to Kimber, so its just really how good you want your system to sound!

Do your self a favor and just compare! You will very easily hear and see a difference.

If you don't care about having a great system, thats fine. But if you want the best sounding system that your buddys will drool over, pay some attention to ALL your cables! Everything from your digital cable (preferably your coax digital) to your interconnects and then speaker cable.

Here is something you can try. This will prove my point.

Push pause on your CD/DVD player, and crank your volume all the way up. Notice the hiss and popping in your speakers?? That is the RFI and EMI coming into your cables. The only way out for these frequencies is through your speakers. These frequencies are robbing you of your systems sound. By eliminating these frequencies with high quality cables you are allowing your system to shine. You will notice a cleaner sound and a larger sweet spot and image at your listening position. Trust me I have heard it myself! It is very noticable! Oh, make sure you turn your volume down before pushing play!!

Oh my. Here we go again.

OOOF!

SkiTaos, I guarantee you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between generic 12-gauge "zip wire" and equivalent gauge Kimber Kables in a double-blind test. Passing an analog audio signal is one of the least complicated things a wire can do and is extemeley well understood scientifically.

To sum up, unless a cable is designed in such a way that it alters the original signal -- which is a BAD THING -- then it'll pass audibly flawlessly from one end to the other.

And don't even get me started on digital cable. 1s and 0s in one end 1s and 0s out the other.

Welcome to the Axiom forum, and you are entitled to your opinions.

As for your test, I have done that many times on my system. Parasound Halo amps, Denon,Sony and Oppo players, using both Axiom and Rocket speakers. Cables consisting of a mix of Axiom, Bluejeans, Monoprice.........with the volume maxed at +15db there is no hiss or popping from any of the speakers. Actually not a sound of any type, perhaps I'm just lucky.

Ski, welcome. Your comments are undoubtedly well-meant, but frankly they read like a collection of advertising slogans from high-price sellers. Speaker wire and patch cables perform a technologically trivial function by serving as a low resistance pathway for the electromagnetic wave that travels along the outside of the wire. The items to perform this without audible flaws are available at reasonable cost from many suppliers such as MonoPrice and Total Signal. Claims to the contrary collapse when put to the (blind listening)test.

And don't even get me started on digital cable. 1s and 0s in one end 1s and 0s out the other.

What I mean by specifying the "coax", is why use optical if you don't have too? The signal is converted into light and then back. Why put the signal through another change if you don't have too? keep the signal path as simple as possible. I agree that you don't want the cables to affect the signal no matter what. That is Purist's goal, to keep the original signal as pure as possible while keeping out the interference.

With that said, Some say "It doesn't matter what you buy. Lamp cord is just as good as Kimber 4pr speaker wire (their starting cable). The only difference is that Kimber has sucked you in to thier sales pitch" So, Kimber a huge company is banking their livelyhood on a sales pitch? I live near Ogden, Utah where Kimber Kable happens to be located. I was given an extensive tour, and was amazed by the extent of their research and development facility. I know for sure that I am not the only one that feels that Kimber and Purist make a huge difference in the performance of a system. Try and convice the attendees and exhibitors at the home entertainment show (theshowlasvegas.com) that Blue jean and Monster are all you need and nothing more.

So, I guess I am one of those that will feel better having $2000 worth of cables in my system. As a consumer thats all that matters, right?! I have heard the cables compaired to Monster and Radio Shack and have heard the difference. Not a psycological (I "think" I can hear)difference but an actual audible difference. Bass is tighter and the soundstage is improved.

For the sake of argument, let's say that cables do make a difference. Saying that the difference is HUGE is a bit of an overstatement. If that were true, then most people would be able to reliably differentiate among different cables in double-blind tests. As JohnK stated, this has not yet occurred.

Your money is best spent in places that unquestionably make a difference in sound -- like the speakers.

The way I figure it, if you can afford it and it makes you happy, then nothing else said really matters, but if you choose Axiom over B&W you'll have more money to buy those cables

Please folks, let's not do this. We're headed for the water cooler.

-Brian n8wrl

It seems to have remained civil thus far, hasn't it? If we shy away from debates -- even ones we've had many times -- then this would be a dull place, don'tcha think? If someone states something that I believe is fundamentally misleading, is it not important to offer my own viewpoint?

Don't get me wrong. I don't want to beat dead horses (or witness them being beaten) any more than the next guy, so I'm adopt JohnK's methodology: say my piece and move on.

Don't we need to first debate whether or not we should have debates?

(This is why I don't like the corporate world and it doesn't like me!!)

Welcome!

Not only, did I find your post interesting,...it is most refreshing to find someone who has listened, and "tested" the products you have recommended.

I also find your testimony, much more credible, than the naysayers.

By the reviews I have found on the web and this site, it is a sure thing I will go for Axiom speakers! When that time will come, I just don't know. By the time I finally purchase an Axiom system, the speakers will most likely be better than they are now!

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I also find your testimony, much more credible, than the naysayers.

And just who are the naysayers?

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What I mean by specifying the "coax", is why use optical if you don't have too? The signal is converted into light and then back. Why put the signal through another change if you don't have too? keep the signal path as simple as possible. I agree that you don't want the cables to affect the signal no matter what. That is Purist's goal, to keep the original signal as pure as possible while keeping out the interference.

OMG, I'm going to be civil and just let that one go.

(I guess by posting that I didn't just let it go thou

)

Good Idea.

Alright! Why let it go? I am here to LEARN as well. Instead getting huffy puffy, explain what you mean!
Refer me to Expert sites that explain every path of the signal from DVD/CD to the speakers.

Kimber and Purist don't make pretty looking cables that are assembled in some foreign country. As for Kimber, I saw the braid machines in action and technicians terminating cables and interconnects right in front of me in Ogden, Utah. Kimber plainly displays their measurments of each cable/interconnect. So if the cable measuments are different, then there must me a difference between cables, right? Say the 8VS and the 8TC (same AWG)cables from Kimber have different specs.

Is the Coax and Optical signal the same at the end result, sure. I am just saying why CONVERT the signal if not necessary?

Now, if Purist and Kimber are putting thousands if not millions into research apparently there is room for improvment. How much improvment? Obviously enough improvment for the companies to spend the thousands if not millions on research.

Now, I want to learn. NOT personal opinions, but Experts and Physics only. On an understandable level of course! Thanks.

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Alright! Why let it go?

Because, quite frankly, we've been down this path many, many times. You can do a search and find a full day's worth of reading on the topic.

You just got here. You can't walk into the middle of a lecture and expect the speaker to start from the beginning.....

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I know I never had a chance to welcome you to the boards. But you can't just demand that we re-debate something that's been rehashed ad nauseum for the last five years!

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You just got here. You can't walk into the middle of a lecture and expect the speaker to start from the beginning.....

Well if you can't then these fora are different from any others I go to. It seems to me that the same sort of questions are always being asked by new members. It's not bad or good it's just the nature of the beast. The only fix would be a FAQ thread. Even then you would still be hearing "upgrade to the M80s"

Btw my Monoprice cables took about 2 weeks during the Chistmas holidays. I suspect any delays to us Canadians is due to border issues.

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So, I guess I am one of those that will feel better having $2000 worth of cables in my system. As a consumer thats all that matters, right?! I have heard the cables compaired to Monster and Radio Shack and have heard the difference. Not a psycological (I "think" I can hear)difference but an actual audible difference. Bass is tighter and the soundstage is improved.

This topic has been rehashed many times on just this board alone. You don't need "expert" testimony on the physics involved in the technology of cable design. The proof is in the pudding... are there any double blind tests showing that there is any audio difference between standard and "audiophile" cable?
NO.

If you can find any I'll stand corrected.

If you believe there is a difference, then you're certainly entitled to. The data to prove it just isn't available.
Why is there so much money poured into cable technology and 'research'? There is enough public demand for it. Enough consumers believe it has merit. The power of 'belief' can be astounding.

Read NUMBER 1 here:

Ten Biggest Audio Lies

I don't care if this topic has showed up a million times! This is the here and now, and I am interested in learning about cables. You have 1687 posts and I have 12 counting this one. Sorry to step on your turf! I don't care if you have or anyone has been down this path before. Its a path and a message board, and people have questions or thoughts to be addressed.

Moreover, I can't see spending $10,000 on a Krell or Parasound amp and preamp, and connecting it with $15 of interconnects/speaker wire. It just doesn't make logical sence.

I don't think there is anything wrong with rehashing old questions, true a search would reveal some of the discussions, but there are many new members that share different opinions on different topics.
I would venture to guess that there aren't many topics that have not been discussed at one time or another on this board. IMHO rehashing old topics with fresh new opinions is always a good thing.

I bet we will be talking about line conditioning very soon.

I use Clairol, oops, What were we talking about?

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I don't think there is anything wrong with rehashing old questions, true a search would reveal some of the discussions, but there are many new members that share different opinions on different topics.

Michael:
I'm not saying that the thread should be stifled or censored. It just seems that "Ski" is annoyed that people aren't responding well enough to his questions, & I'm simply letting him know that many are not going to get into the whole thing again because they've been down that path many times already.

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I can't see spending $10,000 on a Krell or Parasound amp and preamp, and connecting it with $15 of interconnects/speaker wire. It just doesn't make logical sence.

Ok then, connect it with a $1000.00 cable and make yourself feel better.

Bottom line, you cant tell the difference.

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I don't care if this topic has showed up a million times! This is the here and now, and I am interested in learning about cables. You have 1687 posts and I have 12 counting this one. Sorry to step on your turf! I don't care if you have or anyone has been down this path before. Its a path and a message board, and people have questions or thoughts to be addressed.

Moreover, I can't see spending $10,000 on a Krell or Parasound amp and preamp, and connecting it with $15 of interconnects/speaker wire. It just doesn't make logical sence.

Ski:
Spend away. I haven't posted my thoughts on the cable issue one way or another. If you want to spend thousands on cables, feel free.

And, as I posted above, I'm not trying to censor the thread. Ask away... I and anyone else can choose to read or participate in it at will.

But... you have a tonality in your posts that make it seem like you are somewhat demanding of answers, and as I posted above, you should understand that many will decide not to rehash the discussion.

Mark,
I agree with what you are saying and I hope Ski does also, those that want to respond will in kind, I just would hate to see another flame war get started over this topic.

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I just would hate to see another flame war get started over this topic.

If that were to happen it would be because of the tone in which this guy speaks and almost demands answers. It wouldnt be because of the topic itself.

but i do agree the some older topics should be revisited after a certain period of time...technology changes everyday and there may be something new to learn....so even though this topic may have been discussed in much detail in the past...that doesn't mean it has become taboo and cannot be discussed any further....just my tiny 2cents

So we have a flame war over him asking the questions? That's kind of silly.

Yeah, we've been over and rehashed several times, and I probably got into the protest over that with my first post. Anyway, here's the article I always used to post in the speaker cable threads:

Ultralink cable

Mind you, I have these on my mains, or at least a similar design (I used Canare Quad Star from Blue Jeans). I did it because I thought it was a cool project. I did not expect it to sound any better than 14 gauge zip cable. Heck, on the distances I've been using, I don't expect it to sound any better than 16 gauge cable.

Now, I know that a certain person will come on and swear up and down that he hears differences with his cables. I concede that that is possible, since he uses extraordinarily thin cables, which probably attenuate the high end to some degree due to resistance. He will disagree with me, and say that I never listen to anything, so I don't have a right to talk. Hence our general tiredness of this topic.

In any case, there is very little magic involved with transmitting a signal from an amplifier to a mechanical transducer.

As for the digital cables, although we haven't gotten into this one, this article is worth a read:
Coat hanger
Well, that wasn't quite the article I wanted, and it's awful old, but basically the demo's there near the bottom.

I don't know about optical, but here's something to think about: data integrity in computer networks is a tad more important than audio, as far as the industry is concerned. (audiophiles may have a different opinion). However, the computer/network industry has no problems using optical/electrical converters in networks; in fact fibre is often favored. For those who say that there are correcting mechanisms, sure. How about fibre channel then? Not so many correcting mechanisms, and it has to be faster. Optical fiber and copper work about the same; heck, optical works better because it goes farther.

That said, I don't use optical in my setup. Why not? no particular reason--I didn't have any optical cables lying around. But the connectors aren't necessarily as solid as Coax from what I've seen, and the cables can be bent into breaking. Copper just seems more durable. But that's an emotional response--I haven't done any reasearch on that.

I doubt any of this will convince you; it's remarkably hard to convince people of anything online. But I changed my mind. Granted, I have never been on a Kimber factory tour, but I did read up on their stuff extensively. I have a hard time believing that my audio is so bad that veils will be lifted and things will be tightened if I just change a length of copper.

Here is a good article to read

Here is another

Just to add. I have my speakers connected via IXOS XHS756 cables. Most would consider them pretty high end speaker cable.

I have also played my speakers with 5 dollar cables and there is no difference.

Kinda pretty, though!

If you've got the money and want to spend it on cables go ahead. I don't buy there is a difference myself, but if I had some extra cash I'd buy a reasonably priced set just because it's some great "eye candy". I'm not sure why many people here get up in arms about spending cash on expensive audio equipment and accessories. If people have the money, who cares.

Because they often tell those of us who don't that we either have tin ears or we're just stupid.

Mind, I'm not saying that this is the case here.

Several thoughts.

1. If one is going to frequent this, or any, forum on a regular basis, I think one is going to find the same questions come up, again and again. Since new people arrive all the time trying to learn just as we did, it just comes with the territory and should be expected, and hopefully accepted?

To me, the choice is either try to help the questioner or ignore the question and move on. Often, my involvement is unnecessary because the question is adequately answered by others.

2. Ski, without meaning to put words in their mouths, I think (emphasis on the uncertainty) the reason Mark and those who get upset at seeing this question, and others like it, come up again, is not so much because it's already been discussed ad nauseum, but because those discussions have inevitably, and to our shame, disintegrated into quarrels, which, is unpleasant for all concerned, particularly those not directly involved in the thread.

3. I feel all on topic opinions, whether I agree with them or not, should be welcome here.

Personally, I believe there is little, if any, audible difference between well constructed cables. Poorly constructed cables are a different matter. The reason that is my belief is because I have come across no credible scientific evidence proving otherwise, and have, in fact, come across much credible scientific evidence upon which to base my belief.

However, as the regulars here know (apologies to them for the redundancy) I am a firm believer that "because I like it," and "because I want it" are perfectly valid reasons for making any purchase. In the past, I've spent just a bit more than is necessary on my cables because I like well made, decent looking cables. However Monoprice.com, is now satisfying my needs and wants at a price more reasonable than I've found elsewhere, and so far, I'm most impressed.

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I'm not sure why many people here get up in arms about spending cash on expensive audio equipment and accessories. If people have the money, who cares.

It's the "if people have the money" part that is important. I don't present my opinion on this matter to try to dissuade those who believe there is a major difference in the sound quality of cables from their belief. It is my intent to inform the new, untrained neophyte, who doesn't know better, that there is no scientific proof that there is any audible difference between cable, and thus spending a lot of money on them is, IMHO, unnecessary. Once that point is made, I have no problem with anyone spending what they want on cables or anything else. As one who has Rockefeller desires and skid row pockets I just don't want anyone, particularly me

, spending more money than is necessary, unless that is their informed decision.

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the reason Mark and those who get upset at seeing this question

Hey Jack, you missed this one!

I'm not at all upset about the question or the idea that someone new to a forum would ask a common question. I would expect it. For what it's worth, the topic is not a hot button for me; I'm not sure if I've ever even let my opinion be known on the subject.

Newcomers post common questions here all the time. What I object to is the tone that "Ski" has been using:

"If you don't care about having a great system, thats fine."

"Alright! Why let it go? I am here to LEARN as well. Instead getting huffy puffy, explain what you mean!"

"I don't care if this topic has showed up a million times! This is the here and now, and I am interested in learning about cables."

"I don't care if you have or anyone has been down this path before. "

Maybe, in all fairness, I'm misinterpreting his tone... it's certainly not uncommon on the internet. If so, I apologize. But if I am correctly reading his tone, I stand by my posts that many will likely choose not to answer and that doing a simple search will bring him lots of relevant information.

Case in point:

When I first came across these boards, I had Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble 1s as my speakers, and an old, vaguely functional Toshiba silver face receiver from the early 80s.

I was actually thinking about spending money on Kimber cables in order to improve my sound in leiu of saving for new speakers.

Doesn't make much sense in hindsight--no cables could give me any midrange with those speakers; nor would they have fixed the left channel dropout problem on the receiver. But they would have cost me at least 1/8 of the price of my M50s, and for a just married guy just out of college, that's some money.

Mark, that's exactly how I would respond to a series of posts like the above (at least in my mind, if not in print).

The first statement obviously wasn't a response, but we've all done stuff like that. "I'm excited about this product, gotta tell people!"

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I had Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble 1s as my speakers, and an old, vaguely functional Toshiba silver face receiver from the early 80s.

I was actually thinking about spending money on Kimber cables in order to improve my sound in leiu of saving for new speakers.

haha, thats pretty funny.

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It is my intent to inform the new, untrained neophyte, who doesn't know better, that there is no scientific proof that there is any audible difference between cable, and thus spending a lot of money on them is, IMHO, unnecessary. Once that point is made, I have no problem with anyone spending what they want on cables or anything else.

Gotcha. I kind of lost track of the fact that the OP was looking for advice. Good Post.

There was an OP??

I'm going to forward this post to Milton Friedman. There goes the theory of the rational consumer. He's going to be so choked. There goes capitalism.

J

Yeah, I gotta go with Mark and Jack on this one. (Did I say that out loud?

).

Ask away, do a little searching, decide to participate or not and always try to be a gentleman (or gentlelady). Good stuff usually happens.

I chose not to get into this one because the subject matter always denigrates into a dummy contest. But I was also put off by Ski's tone. To be honest, I find it difficult to have a conversation when the other party insists on sticking a finger in my eye while asking me to assist them. Frankly, my concentration suffers and my eye hurts. Maybe it's just me.

I didn't mean for my message to come across with "a tone". The quotes you listed were in reference to the "we have been down this path before" comment. Just because I do a search doesn't mean I will get my answers. So, that is why I started where I did.

I am not demanding answers just asking valid questions, I thought. I apologise for coming across that way! Sorry.

Now one last question? This is elementry, is there a difference in sound between RCA (LandR) interconnects, and Coax Digital from your CD player to your preamp/reciever? Hmmm...

Thanks for all the input!

Taking a sarcastic tone won't help either.

Ski-
You have a PM....

whats PM?

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Mark, that's exactly how I would respond to a series of posts like the above (at least in my mind, if not in print).

The first statement obviously wasn't a response, but we've all done stuff like that. "I'm excited about this product, gotta tell people!"

That is exactly why I posted my first post on this thread. I was and still am excited about products like Kimber and Purist.

Once again, I didn't mean my posts to come across with "tone" that was not my intent. One Comment I agree was a bit dumb of me to say "If you don't care about having a great system, thats fine." I am sure most if not all your systems sound great!

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Now one last question? This is elementry, is there a difference in sound between RCA (LandR) interconnects, and Coax Digital from your CD player to your preamp/reciever?

I would wager that the main difference in sound will be between the DSP and analog DACs, rather than the cables themselves.

Quick, everyone, upgrade your monitor cables so you can see these forums correctly.

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I didn't mean for my message to come across with "a tone". The quotes you listed were in reference to the "we have been down this path before" comment. Just because I do a search doesn't mean I will get my answers. So, that is why I started where I did.

I am not demanding answers just asking valid questions, I thought. I apologise for coming across that way! Sorry.

Now one last question? This is elementry, is there a difference in sound between RCA (LandR) interconnects, and Coax Digital from your CD player to your preamp/reciever? Hmmm...

Thanks for all the input!

Ski, you will not win a posting contest with certain people on this forum. I'm not saying I agree with you, but there is a group mentality here and if you don't agree with it you will be shut down. I guess it's now my turn.

Thomas, if by "group mentality" you mean that many of us agree on some things, I'd say that's correct. What's wrong with that? On the other hand, your statement that those who disagree will be "shut down" is completely false, unless, of course, you classify any number of people disagreeing with you, and stating their opinions, as "shutting you down."

A PM is a private message. You should see a little mail icon blinking right next to the Logout button.

Randy, I'm not seeing the sarcasm. The magic of text without facial and vocal cues, huh?

Thomas, people sometimes agree with one another and back each other up. Other times, they disagree with one another. Shocking, innit?

I know, let's have an argument about the nature of these boards again. Wait, that's a different thread.

Experts and Physics . Coat hangers , rusty fence wire , and $2.50 cables .

Digital signal is even more intolerant of speaker cable.

Everything is either a 1 or a 0. Any cable is going to get that through just fine.

I'm confsued with the your choice of "intolerant"

Jeesh, I leave you kids alone for a couple hours and look what happens

Sorry, Dad......

Ski,

Now that the ground noise has cleared, did you get your questions answered?

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Ski,

Now that the ground noise has cleared, did you get your questions answered?

Uh what was the question?

Yes, Thank you!