Hey guys, I was wondering if the m60s (in the front) would make a difference in my setup. Well I have a yamaha 7.1 receiver
- front: m22ti
- center: vp100
- rear : axiom ax1.5
- PSB 12" sub (pretty decent)
Since it cost around 1000$ for me, I'm wondering what to do.
My room is not really big 11'x10 maximum (I dont recall the exact dimensions)
Luc, in that size room it would appear that the M22s, with the sub handling the low bass, would be more than adequate at the sound output levels that would be used. Alan, for example, has commented several times on the near identity between the M22 and M60 above the low bass when used in small to medium-sized rooms.
I'm really a newbie concerning audio stuff and I'm wondering if you guys have good links to learn about audio hardware.
Could I improve something in my setup? I'm kinda lost with the preamp and external amplifiers. I don't know or understand if I need any of this.
Hey Luc,
I've never heard the 22's, but as John mentioned, they do a great job when combined with a sub, especially in smaller rooms. Another important point is to make sure you have everything calibrated correctly, that will make a world of difference.
The m60's put out some killer bass, so I'm sure you would notice some difference based on the design differences. Good luck on your decision...I'm tossing around the idea of upgrading to some 80's, but I have a HUGE room.
Well my setup sounds good but not great.. I know that a lot of the sound depends on speaker placement so I may try to play with that.
I will try to post pics of my setup (when I get back home) to get some suggestions ..
my receiver:
http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/RX_V650Ti.jsp
Luc, I have never heard the ax1.5's, but maybe instead of switching the m22's you could switch yor rears to a QS series.
Luc, my thought would also be that QS4s would significantly increase your enjoyment. The 650 should have plenty of power for that room and there wouldn't appear to be a good reason to consider a separate pre-amp and amp.
As to speaker placement, if you don't have them with the M22 tweeters at ear level, or at least pointing to ear level, that's one suggestion. Separating them about as much as your distance from them, if possible, is another point.
Hi Luc!
I happen to own both the M22's and the M60's. As much as I prefer my M60's, I honestly wouldn't spend another $1000 to replace the M22's which happen to be in the same size room as yours. I'm very satisfied with the output of the M22's and they are only being powered by a 40wpc Rotel amp. Can you perhaps be more specific about what you're unhappy with?
well, my shelves are higher than ear level. When I installed my shelves, my speakers were smaller (the AX 1.5 model). So now that I've bought my m22, which are a lot taller, my speakers placement are really not optimal.
I have 4 speaker stands sleeping in my locker. I will get them and try to ear a difference.
I find that my setup doesnt seem to play very loud and the bass is not shocking. The fact is that my girlfriend doesnt like the sub very much and I turned down it's volume quite a bit.
If I play a movie and i turn the sub's volume a bit, I get a good experience but when I listen to radio or a CD, I dont enjoy it equally.
that's a great idea, there is not a big difference between the QS8 and QS4, I think I will order a pair of QS8..
I will probably buy a new house soon and don't want to be stuck will small speakers if the room is bigger
I've just remembered the reason why I was checking to replace my front with m60 instead of replacing my back with the QS speakers.
The thing is that, if I replace my front with M60, I would move my m22 to the back.
If I follow plan B and order the QS for the back, later down the road if I dedice to upgrade the front, I will be stuck with an extra pair.
Since you have a 7.1 receiver, you could move the M22's to the side and have the QS4's in the back.
I would say leave the Q's for the left/right surrounds, they will blow away a bookshelf for those effects. I would use the 22's for the rear channel since not much surround effects come from that channel, but for music the 22's would shine. You want to leave the Q's in place, they will do a better job.
Hey Luc,
Looking at the pics, it seems that when you are seated, all the speakers are firing "overhead". Before I would spend a dime on new speakers, I would take time to reposition ALL the speakers in the room. Once you are done that, I would re-calibrate everything with an SPL meter & Avia disc. I'm sure you will be able to unlock far more potential. Positioning is absolutely critical.
I'd nix the shelves and invest in some
Full Metal Brackets.
Or mount some QS8's on the sides. If you move into a larger home the M22's could always be used for a 2 channel system down the road.
agreed but now that you see my configuration, what about recommandation? shoud I place the speakers just beside the TV.
I have big furnitures and dont know how to place them..
my center is also a problem, on the shelf, it's currently firing 15degrees up instead of firing down to the ears level..
I agree with Shawn. The M22's seem in an odd position...too high and maybe too far in the corners.
For the time being (before your QS8's arrive), since you are using bookshelf speakers as surrounds, maybe you could try facing them directly toward eachother. I've found in the past that this position helped create more of a surround effect.
As far as your sub goes, maybe mess around a bit with the crossover rather than the volume. It might help tighten the sound a bit when playing music.
I've got the same problem as you regarding the center. What I did (a suggestion from others here) was to put a rubber door stopper under it in the back so it tilts the speaker downward a bit. It really helps!
Try turning the center speaker upside down and flip the grill over.
nice idea!!!
here is my center speaker firing in the wrong direction..
the problem is that the tv is big! (usually not a problem), My masks were hanged before I installed my shelf for the center, and I had to use the space left.
http://woxxom.com/images/center.jpg
Oop, sorry, that would make it fire up. What you coud do is put some small furniture coasters under the back end of the center to angle it down.
well thanks for the link and suggestion, that would solve the problem. I noticed that the bracket can be tilted up and down, so I could set the speaker in the good direction.
I will order them when I finally decide to get QS4 or QS8
agreed... just need to decide myself for the QS4 or QS8
Believe it or not, flipped so it's angled up can work better than straight on, at least in my room. With the VP straight on, I always felt like the voices were coming from above the TV. With it angled up, the voices are more centered. YMMV.
I once turned my rear speakers at each other, but the sound seems to travel way above the seating position. To ear anything coming from them I would have to get a pair of QS or lower my current speakers (or buy a pair of metal brackets).
I played with the crossover setting but everything will need to be calibrated when I fix my speaker positions.
:-)
thanks again for your nice feedbacks
** URGENT **
Some guy is selling a pair of new M60 (still in box) for around ~800$cdn
Should I still invest in QS? or buy these and use the M22 as rear
In reply to:
Some guy is selling a pair of new M60 (still in box) for around ~800$cdn
Should I still invest in QS? or buy these and use the M22 as rear
Luc, as many have suggested, the M60s are way too large for that size of room. You will have alot of problems getting them placed properly without a good distance back from the fronts.
The QSx surrounds are by far the best bet for that smaller space as well. Direct firing speakers for surrounds in that tight room will likely draw too much attention from their sound dispersion. I put up a
post a long time ago with my thoughts on the QSx vs. M22s as surrounds in a smallish room.
Peter also suggested using the Axiom Full Metal Brackets for taking your front speakers out of the corners and into the centre of the room as well. I think this will make a huge difference in helping you place the sound together in a more seamless soundstage.
Sonic gave a great link to a centre channel stand that should also make a world of difference. The centre should be firing towards your ears and not at the ceiling. I'm not really sure what you hear for dialogue at the moment, but it can't be good.
Well I appreciate all the inputs you're all giving. I first wanted to improve my sound quality, but it the end, it turned out that my speakers installation was far from being optimal.
you know, to compensate the bad speakers positionning I had to tweak my amp, like giving a boost to the center channel, and a +8-9db to rear speakers to hear anything from them. It's probably giving bad results.
As soon as I get back from my business trip (tomorrow), I will definitely buy a new 'center' stand and order the metal brackets for the front..
do you guys think I will be fine with the brackets included with the QS8 or I need to order full brackets for these too?
these brackets are really expensive..
LucRaymond, I agree with the earlier posters. The fronts look too high, get them lower and get them away from the walls - a foot at the very least, ideally more. The center definitely needs to be flipped to sit on its straight side, so that the front grille is perpendicular to the shelf. For the rears I would use QS speakers as backs anytime unless you have 5 feet or more in the back behind your sitting position and use them ALWAYS in 5.1 setup (sides). Are you sure you cannot mount them on the sides of your room - about 2 feet from the back wall and about 1-2 feet above the ears level would be what I think is optimal. Not sure what is on the left side of the room in the back - is it open? Otherwise your "side surrounds" will be in the back and much shifted to the right relative to the fronts.
Here you can view my front and rear setup. I dont have much space left for the back.
http://www.woxxom.com/images/front.jpg
http://www.woxxom.com/images/back.jpg
Some folks suggested to use the full metal brackets to hang my m22 but there is no way to put them 1 foot away from the wall with these brackets. Are you suggesting to use floor stands?
the left side of the room is open.
I meant putting the fronts 2 feet from the side walls, not from the front wall so you can use the shelves you have now, just move them closer to the TV and away from the side walls as well as lower. The back is really tricky if the room is open on the left. People tried mounting QS speakers to the ceiling using angle shelf-support L-style brackets. You can see that mount and some discussion of how this may look and sound
here.
what about placing the QS exactly at the same spot of my
AX 1.5?
Also since you were considering the M60's for the fronts, I have a slightly bigger room - closed on all sides. I saw a noticable improvement when I moved the speakers forward, in fact about 3 feet forward from the screen. Tucked in the corners they were too "localized" with a "gap" in the soundstage in the middle, especially in good old stereo with no center active.
I guess this will work as well, but orthodox placement for the "side surrounds" is on the sides, not in the back. I did not experiment much with having only the backs - I always use the sides. I find that even in the 7.1 setup amount of information coming from the side is much more than from the back. For the music it is the sides that give the "aireness" to the 5.1 surround recordings (SACD/DVD-A) while the backs merely improve it incrementally. The movies also use the sides much more often. Having any real content in the back channels (EX/ES) is rare. I suggest you try both - with some temporary support stands - and see if you hear the difference, only then start drilling the holes. In my case positioning of the side QS8's was way off in the beginning as well - I put them too much forward and experimenting with both the height and the distance from the back wall helped in the end achieve the sound I wanted.
Good Day, Luc -
I have not been following this thread closely, but just looked at the pictures you posted.
As to the front speakers, I would get the Axiom Full Metal Brackets (as already suggested) and follow the advice to mount the speakers away from the corner of the room. If - using temporary stands of some kind - you can experiment a bit with the placement before mounting, that would be good. However, the FMB is such a good mount (swiveling and tilting) that you should be able to compensate quite a bit if necessary. But do get them out of the corner. Perhaps about half-way between the wall and the television, with the top of the speaker one foot or so lower than your current configuration. Your ears and your room will be the only way to decide for certain.
I believe that this change alone will make a very large difference in how your system sounds.
For the Center speaker, I see that your TV is too narrow at the top to support it. I understand! There are some shelves made for this type of thing, or you could consider a stand in front of the TV. You may wish to consider also mounting the center on an Axiom FMB somewhat above its current position and angled down.
For the back, I have some experience with a room like yours (where the listening position is against the back wall). Without hesitation, I would strongly encourage you to get the QS8's (or even QS4's) and mount them flush with the wall at nearly the same position as your AX1.5's. You will not use the shelves and you will NOT need the FMB; the T-brackets that come with the speakers are ideal for your installation. Again, if you can get the right QS speaker away from the corner just a little - even by a few inches - that will be helpful.
I had my surround speakers "behind" me like this for quite a while and still found the effects to be very satisfying. Since the AX1.5's are now actually firing above your head, I think having the quadpolar QS speakers on the wall behind you will provide a tremendously positive change for you.
After studying the pictures for a while, I am convinced that most of your current discontent is due to placement.
Enjoy and please keep us posted.
thanks for the complete wrap up!
I'm getting back tomorrow and I can't wait to fix my configuration. I should order my QS8 and brackets over the weekend.
I will definitely post pictures of the progress
Luc, some suggestions after looking at your pictures. The M22 tweeters are way too high; try turning the M22s upside-down with the tweeters on the bottom to put them closer to ear level. Possibly also tilt them slightly downward to point at your ears.
The center speaker shouldn't be blocked by the TV. Even with the narrow top of the TV it may well be feasible to place the VP100 there(with adhesive)so that it's at least even with the screen, or better, slightly in front.
Yes, the QSs in the same position as your present surrounds would be good. As a suggestion for more dispersed surround sound now, instead of toeing them in, point them directly outward to bounce off the side walls.
Hi John, for the M22, I will probably just order the full metal brackets. Since you can tilt them, I will be able to adjust the angle. For my center, as suggested, I will look into a center stand that you install on the TV.
Add to that a pair of QS8 and I should have a real nice setup (for my type of room).
I've just looked in my AVR manual and my shelves which host the M22 could be ideal candidates for presence speakers
so what IF:
- I ordered QS8 to replace my back AX1.5
- Order new metal brackets and place the M22 more near the TV
- place my AX1.5 on the shelves as presence speakers
:-D
I was contacted by a M60 seller (brand new pair, box was never opened). 635$cdn
I can't seem to decide
life's hard.. I know you guys try to convince me that my m22 are okay!
I think you want one of us to say, "Go for the M60s!"
I've had large speakers in a small room and it's worked for me. You really have to play with placement and possibly some room treatments, but it can be done.
If it will satisfy your curiousity, get the floorstanders. From what I've read of your other posts, really try to get better placement from what you have and then go from there.
Luc, what do you mean you were "contacted". That price is too low; something doesn't look right.
I would be cautious if your not dealing directly with AXIOM themselves, they don't sell through distribution.
well they.re posted on ebay, it's not a retail store
There are a lot of people that sell Axiom speakers on Ebay, however, you won't get a 5 yr warranty or service from axiom if you have problems. Most of my experience is that you can't do any better once shipping is figured in and if you buy from the factory outlet you get a new Axiom product from Axiom.