Can anyone recommend some movies and specific scenes that have good low rumbing bass that I can use to check if I'm happy with my subwoofer level? I find that I'm not totally happy with the bass I'm getting from my stf-3. I'd like to test some movie scenes that I know should have some ... bone rattling bass and see how my sub responds.
See if she'll cough on these:
Tripod scene from War of the Worlds
Darla "Tap" scene from Finding Nemo
Depth Charge scene from U571
Openening scene from Master & Commander
Also in Finding Nemo, inside the whales mouth scene is pretty intense.
How do you have it set up? Where is it located and did you calibrate it?
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Also in Finding Nemo, inside the whales mouth scene is pretty intense.
Listen Randy, we don't need to know about how you spend your evenings! 
Many scenes in LOTR:ROTK. My EP600 is 12 feet away from my couch in my 4000 cubic foot space. The couch was shaking, my jeans were flapping and the entire upstairs was rippling! I was seriously scared that I would create a rip in the fabric of space-time
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12 o'clock high will do that.
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Many scenes in LOTR:ROTK. My EP600 is 12 feet away from my couch in my 4000 cubic foot space. The couch was shaking, my jeans were flapping and the entire upstairs was rippling! I was seriously scared that I would create a rip in the fabric of space-time .
Which scene in particular?
I did calibrate it with the spl meter but somehow it just doesn't feel right. It's sitting about a foot to the left of my left main speaker. So about 8ft away about 6 inches from the wall. The sub isn't even turned up a quarter of the way. I don't find exlosions to be a very good test. I need something that rumbels deep that I can really feel. For ex if someone says a certain scene from a specific movie makes their bones rattle etc then I should have a good idea if mine even comes relatively close. Obviously there will be some differences due to better placement and or sub. Just looking for a simple comparison.
I did try the first scene from Master and Commander but while the explosions sounded good and clear, I didn't see any windows shaking...
Every scene that has battles, special effects and monsters. I doubt you will be able to feel these scenes with the STF-3 but if you can, congrats! My EP600 starts shaking my house at 14 Hz.
You say you calibrated it, but how? 75dB for all speakers? Also, how do you have your settings in the receiver for the speakers? Small, Large, Crossover? Do you have your crossover on the sub set to bypass or turned off? etc...
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Every scene that has battles, special effects and monsters. I doubt you will be able to feel these scenes with the STF-3 but if you can, congrats! My EP600 starts shaking my house at 14 Hz.
He should be able to feel most scenes in the big blockbusters. The STF 3 has very strong output down to 20Hz and even useable output in the teens. While not an EP 600 it is a very capable sub.
I have found that in some instances, with certain test tones, you need to calibrate the sub 10 dB higher than the other speakers. Don't ask me why, someone else will tell you...
The helicopter crash near the end of The Matrix is one of my favorites. Also try the bombing scenes in Pearl Harbor.
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You say you calibrated it, but how? 75dB for all speakers? Also, how do you have your settings in the receiver for the speakers? Small, Large, Crossover? Do you have your crossover on the sub set to bypass or turned off? etc...
I have all my speakers set to small. crossover on sub is turned off I am using the crossover on the receiver. 75db for all speakers.
I just tried touching up the volume level a bit on the sub. Played Return of the King. Sub now seems a better. I would suspect the sub is now about 10db higher than the other speakers. I'll have to run some tests later. Could simply be my receiver I guess. It is over 5yrs old.
These are a few that I remember.
“Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow” when the robots march through the city.
LOTR FOTR in the mines of Moria fighting the cave troll and later the Barlog at the Bridge of Khazad-dum.
Lots of bass in the movie Titan A.E.
“Band of Brothers” episode “The Breaking Point” when they get shelled in the woods.
The very first scene in Star Wars Episode II where Senator Whats'er'name's ship is flying in, only to be sabotaged on the landing pad. There's some major LFE going on while the ship is on approach, plus there's a beautiful explosion to top it all off. I find that scene odd though. Her ship emits much more LFE than any other ship in the movie, even the big ones.
Did you calibrate it to 75db?
I've found many calibration guides suggest calibrating the sub at +3 or +5 over the mains. Therefore, your sub should be nearing 80db when your mains are at 75db. The reason for this, at least to my understanding, is that most SPL meters are a little less sensitive to low frequencies, and that boosting the LFE a bit over the other channels adds a little more visceral impact to a system. Don't be afraid to crank up your STF-3 a bit more. That's a great sub (so I've heard) that should be able to produce loads of bass for you.
My SVS is calibrated to be about +6db over my system, as that suits my room and my tastes. In the opening M&C scene, when the French Acheron fires from the fog at the English Sophie ("INCOMMING!!!!"), on my system at 'demo' volume, you can actually feel the various cannon concussions in your chest.
Movie scenes are great, but you could also try some bass-centric music like dance or trance. That will give you a repetitive beat to which you can tinker with the calibration. If you really want to go nuts, you can go buy a 'Bass mix' CD, the kind that annoying teenagers use with their uber-watt car systems to rattle other people's rear-view mirrors.... ahhhh memories.
Just don't toast your sub, as it can happen with those.
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I did calibrate it with the spl meter but somehow it just doesn't feel right. It's sitting about a foot to the left of my left main speaker. So about 8ft away about 6 inches from the wall. The sub isn't even turned up a quarter of the way. I don't find exlosions to be a very good test. I need something that rumbels deep that I can really feel. For ex if someone says a certain scene from a specific movie makes their bones rattle etc then I should have a good idea if mine even comes relatively close. Obviously there will be some differences due to better placement and or sub. Just looking for a simple comparison.
I did try the first scene from Master and Commander but while the explosions sounded good and clear, I didn't see any windows shaking...
I'll throw in the ice field scene in Titan: AE for long, sustained rumbling. And the Blue Man Group audio dvd (not the concert DVD) has some songs with amazing sustained bass.
Rich
I calibrated my sub to 73-75db on the SPL meter with c weighting and slow response with the internal pink noise of my receiver. The peaks hit 75 db, while the lows hit 73. I found this to be a good place on the physical dial on the sub.
Now, when I watch movies, i put my receiver at +5db on the sub. when i listen to music, I put it back to 0. Its all a matter of personal taste. There is nothing wrong, like others have said, to run your sub at +5db more than the rest of your speakers.
Watching Underworld the other, there were things buzzing that I have never heard in the room, I pinpointed it as the grill on my left surround...it was a little loose for some reason. Not coming off, but it WAS vibrating. Sheesh!
I also noticed some vibrations from the sub itself, from the back of the EP500, I had no idea where to look for it, anyone have any suggestions? I really didn't feel like hauling the sub out from the wall now that I have the spikes on...
On a totally side note, I have a CD of the original recordings for the true Star Wars movies. I used to use it to stress test speakers--it blew a few of them. Needless to say, it's never been played on any of my Axioms.
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LOTR FOTR in the mines of Moria fighting the cave troll and later the Barlog at the Bridge of Khazad-dum.
I played these scenes and WoW I never heard my system sound so good. I think I'll be rewatching the LOTR again just to hear all the fx. My sub level is currently at about 8oclock
I REALLY gotta try that tripod scene from war of the worlds...
In HD-DVD's, these rattle the foundation of my concrete slab home:
"Serenity's" spaceship sub-audible intro rattles the china cabinet and it's contents, 35 feet away, in another room...the 3rd chapter re-entry is just astounding with EP500's 12" cone traveling close to 3" !!
"King Kong's" many scenes of gut wrenching, very deep resonant growling undertones w\fist pounding, earth shaking scenes...the T-Rex triple fight and many other scenes throughout with extreme LFE!!
"Phantom of the Opera" Organ pedal tones at the black & white\color transition in the 2nd chapter...Very powerful, Very Deep!
"Happy Feet's" chapter (in the middle of movie) where the wary Penguins are in the path of the moving Ice-Breaker...thought my walls were going to come down...many other scenes of dance, music and S. effects that are crisp, clean and Deep!!
"War of the World's" Alien Pod emergence from the earth, hold on to your hats....Alien Death ray and destruction, Phenominal energy at 20hz, hold on to your a.. (this movie in SD-DVD)!!
I'm sure I have many more movie\music examples of extreme LFE, but have only had the EP500 for one week...more to explore and discover!!!
For other references, try here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493(Post #2 has Chapters & Time Stamps)
Hope this helps!
Ted
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LOTR FOTR in the mines of Moria fighting the cave troll and later the Barlog at the Bridge of Khazad-dum.
I played these scenes and WoW I never heard my system sound so good. I think I'll be rewatching the LOTR again just to hear all the fx. My sub level is currently at about 8oclock
I have played that scene to everyone I’ve shown my system to. Not only do you get some nice bass but I think it really shows off the surround speakers. My room is totally blacked out so it really creates the impression I am in a huge cavern.
All the LOTRs movies sound great. Since I live in an apartment I don’t crank the volume so I found that the LRTRs movies sound better with the QS8s turned up. Lots of ambiant sounds I miss if I leave them turned down like the mains an sub.
Another movie I think has some nice sound effects especially in the battle scenes is called “Appleseed” It’s anime but the story is fairly mainstream. During the opening battle not only do you hear shots and explosions all around you but also the tink…tink…tink of empty shell casings hitting the ground. There is also a scene where a single gunshot comes from off screen right that caused me to snap my head around to look where it came from. I also like the soundtrack. Worth a rent IMHO.
Dean
I agree about Appleseed. I've used it to showcase my home theater a few times.
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I agree about Appleseed. I've used it to showcase my home theater a few times.
Nice to see someone else thinks it makes a good demo. I bought it just because I liked the movie but when I started to show off my system I found it was also one of the better all around demos I had. Sadly some people don’t like animation even when much of it is CGI based.
I’ve read that a sequel is coming out in the Fall, however apparently they are changing something about the way they are doing the CGI.
@ Theo - Thanks for the link. I missed it the first time I read your post.
Dean
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Many scenes in LOTR:ROTK. My EP600 is 12 feet away from my couch in my 4000 cubic foot space. The couch was shaking, my jeans were flapping and the entire upstairs was rippling! I was seriously scared that I would create a rip in the fabric of space-time .
LOL
Man I was anxious before reading this thread, now I just CAN'T WAIT for my VTF3-HO to get here tommarow. I have a 50 gallon aquarium with cichlids in the opposite corner of where the sub is going, I am going to have to move it before really flexing the muscles on the sub.
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Many scenes in LOTR:ROTK. My EP600 is 12 feet away from my couch in my 4000 cubic foot space. The couch was shaking, my jeans were flapping and the entire upstairs was rippling! I was seriously scared that I would create a rip in the fabric of space-time
Hi,
I calibrated my sub with test tones from HT Tuneup DVD. Then I watched Black Hawk Down, and the sub was awesome. I turned it up a bit from the calibration setting, and I really felt it. The LMC-1 was at 50 volume.
For your jeans to be flapping and the house to be shaking did you crank up the sub volume quite a bit from its calibrated setting? I have been wondering: if the sub output is calibrated with an SPL meter (which is the case with mine), it's not that loud, even with the processor volume turned up quite a bit. Does that mean I am hearing LFEs the way the soundtrack mixer person wants me to hear it?
It seems like most people crank up the bass higher than calibration setting to whatever sounds good to them. What do you guys do? Leave it at calibrated setting or turn it up?
I can foresee some funny answers to this, but I'll ask anyway: how do you know if you're watching/listening with too much bass, especially when listening to classical and other music?
Regards,
Rodney
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...if the sub output is calibrated with an SPL meter (which is the case with mine), it's not that loud, even with the processor volume turned up quite a bit. Does that mean I am hearing LFEs the way the soundtrack mixer person wants me to hear it?
Yes, I believe so if your receiver is decoding and setup properly for bass management.
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It seems like most people crank up the bass higher than calibration setting to whatever sounds good to them. What do you guys do? Leave it at calibrated setting or turn it up?
I think you will find many in both camps. Mine is setup pretty much flat with the RadioShack SPL meter, but with no correction factor for the meter. It's really personal preference. You want the bass to sound powerful when called upon, but not over emphasized so that it's always overbearing. It's my opinion that it is more dynamic and engaging for a soundtrack to surprise you with the low LFE at moments in the film, not loud all the time.
You also don't want to drown out the detail your other speakers are providing with too much LFE.
Again, this is just my opnion. YMMV.
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For your jeans to be flapping and the house to be shaking did you crank up the sub volume quite a bit from its calibrated setting?
I can foresee some funny answers to this, but I'll ask anyway: how do you know if you're watching/listening with too much bass, especially when listening to classical and other music?
Admittedly, when I was watching LOTR:ROTK I had my sub calibrated at 90dB SPL and all other speakers calibrated to 75 dB. After talking with Sirquack about sub settings, I've turned my EP600 down to 80dB. I have to tell you though that my jeans still flap and my house shakes at low frequencies. I watched parts of Blackhawk Down again with these new settings and the couch was still dancing and pictures were shaking upstairs. I really don't know if this is what the sound mixer had in mind but I can tell you that this is not the effect that I experienced in the theatre with both of these movies. I do believe that what I am hearing and feeling is very realistic though and is not exaggerated.
As for your question on music, I have my cross-over set to 40 Hz for music and 80 Hz for movies. I also turn the amp's sub volume down by 3 dB when listening to music. The best advice that I can give you is that your bass should blend with the rest of your speakers and not stand out when you are listening to music. I spent a lot of time listening and tweaking to get this right.
Dave and mojo,
Thank you for sharing your experiences and advice. Good info.
Regards,
Rodney
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I think you will find many in both camps. Mine is setup pretty much flat with the RadioShack SPL meter, but with no correction factor for the meter. It's really personal preference. You want the bass to sound powerful when called upon, but not over emphasized so that it's always overbearing. It's my opinion that it is more dynamic and engaging for a soundtrack to surprise you with the low LFE at moments in the film, not loud all the time.
You also don't want to drown out the detail your other speakers are providing with too much LFE.
Again, this is just my opnion. YMMV.
My opinion too. That's how I recommend people set up subs either single or multiple. Keep in mind that 75db on the RS SPL metre is actually 2.5db hot relative to the other speakers measured at 75db. At 80db on the metre you are calibrating the sub 7.5db hot. I currently have 3 subs in my HT combined measuring 74db or 1.5db hot. I find at that level they shake all seats when required, give ambience in quiet scenes and don't bloat musical soundtracks.
John, are you sure about the direction of inaccuarcy of the the Radio Shack SPL meter? It actually underestimates the sound level at lower frequencies as evidenced by correction tables. So if the sub is calibrated to 75 dB along with everything else, it will be around 2dB "cold", not "hot", compared to the satellites. I too prefer the bass effects to come as a briskly felt surprise rather than an ever present boominess. The openning battle scene in Master and Commander is one of my favorites for testing the capabilities of the EP-500.
John
Jakeman is correct on adding around 2.5db to the RadioShack meter reading.
When I got my RS SPL meter 2 weeks ago, they only had the digital version. Does the 2.5 dB apply to it, too?
Yes it does. Both analog and digital Radio Shack meters are fairly consistent (standard deviation is about 0.5-1.0dB) and accurate - especially when measuring the midrange. It maxes out at 125dB. It is less accurate for measuring low frequencies. Note that the 2.5db correction factor applies at approximately 40hz and provides a good overall adjustment for subs when calibrating. I strive for 72.5db so I know where reference levels are, then depending on the movie/music, adjust the sub volume up or down to taste. Its always back to reference levels when I turn off my equipment. Here is a more complete list of correction factors.
When measuring using "slow" response and "C" weighting, the following approximate corrections are close enough for our purposes:
10Hz +20.5
12.5Hz +16.5
16Hz +11.5
20Hz +7.5
25Hz +5
31.5Hz +3
40Hz +2.5
50Hz +1.5
63Hz +1.5
80Hz +1.5
100Hz +2
125Hz +0.5
160Hz -0.5
200Hz -0.5
250Hz +0.5
315Hz -0.5
400Hz 0
500Hz -0.5
630Hz 0
800Hz 0
1KHz 0
1.25Khz 0
1.6KHz -0.5
2Khz -1.5
2.5Khz -1.5
3.15Khz -1.5
4KHz -2
5KHz -2
6.3KHz -2
8KHz -2
10Khz -1
12.5KHz +0.5
16KHz 0
20KHz +1
Wid, you are absolutely correct, as is Jakeman (John). I have misread his post as I am so accustomed to setting the sub around 2db lower on the meter. We are all in aggrement; the meter underestimates at low frequencies so the correction is +2.0dB for the sub for 40-100Hz. By the way, my Velodyne SMS-1 actually shows a flatter response when everything is set to 75dB without corrections.
John
Good stuff John. The SMS algorithm factors in SPL adjustments for that ecm5000 microphone so no other corrections are necessary when tweaking from the display. Like yourself I then go back to doublecheck with the SPL metre for a final adjustment since there is now less volatility on the metre.
One thing to be mindful of with the SMS, it appears its mapping function is off slightly at frequencies less than 25hz. Depending on your unit it could be off by 1.5-2.5hz. So if you are seeing a peak at say 27hz it could be occurring at either side of 25 HZ. Its not uniform across all the SMS devices but you can easily tell on yours looking at the scope of the EP500 with its brickwall DSP filter. The steep drop in response occurs at 19-20hz.
A year and half ago Velodyne asked me to beta test the latest firmware version and I pointed out this discrepancy but I suspect Velo decided it wasn't worth redoing the mapping function for such a small adjustment. It doesn't detract at all from its effectiveness and I wholeheartedly recommend it as the final tweak for anyone determined to tame room acoustics or employing multiple subs.
Well, I'm glad John and John agree.
Underestimate, hot, cold... I feel retarded, but to educate me, sometimes one has to give me examples.
I put in the HT Tune-up DVD, go to audio tests, start the individual channel tones, LF being first. I adjust my processor master volume to where the LF channel reads 75dB on meter. Then I leave the processor's master volume alone and go through C, RF, LS and RS and tweak their individual "volume adjust" settings in the processor until they each read 75dB on the meter.
Then I do the sub, but I adjust its volume (I usually use the volume knob on the back of the sub) until the SPL meter reads 72.5dB.
Did I get this right?
Thanks,
Rodney
Hi Rodney,
You got it!
But you did all this SPL measuring from the primary seating position, didn't you? How about the poor folks that will be sitting to your left and right? To be really compulsive, you may want to repeat the measurements from their seats as well. If your frequency response is way off in various listening positions, it is time to invest in acoustic panels, a 5-mic SMS-1 unit, or buy more subwoofers and start over. Jakeman (the other John) recently showed me an article that multiple subwoofers, optimally 4, provide more uniform bass response acroos the whole seating area of a room. There is always more you can do and this is why this hobby is more like a journey rather than a destination. With friendly and knowledgeable people on this forum, I have so far enjoyed this journey very much.
John
How about great sounding mid range DVD scenes?
These LFE movie examples are easy to come up with. Heck, just about any DVD made in the past five years is good. What really sounds good is when you have kick ass mid range blended with LFE. I think that’s the true test for a completely immersive movie watching experience.
My top pick for this is Mission Impossible II. There are two scenes that sound pretty sick with these Axiom mid range drivers and an EP working together. 1) Towards the beginning of the movie when that dancer is stomping away while Cruise and that little tan hottie are stealing the necklace. 2) during the car chase when the two cars get locked together and start spinning towards the ledge. There’s some pretty intense sound effects and drums.
I just watched that movie again the other night on HD/DVD. Way cool….
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These LFE movie examples are easy to come up with. What really sounds good is when you have kick ass mid range blended with LFE.
I agree with Mike, most action movies out now have enough LFE to rattle the walls. I'm currently revisiting all my BR and HD DVD's that have PCM or Tru HD, I watched V last night on HD DVD and besides having some good LFE there were some parts in the movie that the sound was so good it almost startled me out of my seat, to me that's what really makes the movie.
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If your frequency response is way off in various listening positions, it is time to invest in acoustic panels
ihifi John,
Thanks. Grreat info.
You are right, I did all the tests with the meter placed where my ears would be in the primary listening position.
I'll do some more tests this weekend. I am curious to see the results from the other seating positions. My room is not that big: 15'L x 13'W.
Thanks again,
Rodney
Another Amazon order came in…..I’ll repeat this warning for those who missed it last time. Don’t shop Amazon while drinking!! I’m not even going to mention some of the crap that came in the box.
Along with all the crap that I have no idea why it looked interesting enough to buy when I was drunk, was about forty new HD/BR disks. Can’t wait to see this CC statement……
Last night we watched “Night at the Museum” on Blue Ray. What a cute movie.. Seeing a T-rex skeleton playing fetch was pretty dam funny. The audio on this disk was about as impressive as I’ve heard yet. They went to town with the surround activity, and they did it well. It’s the first time I have ever heard a T-rex drinking from a water fountain and knew that that was exactly what was happening behind me without seeing it, or having any idea that was going to be the next scene. Way cool. The LFE in this movie was rattling things all the way through as well.
I lost a little mag light in my soffit when I was building the room. There was no way to retrieve it without tearing down sheet rock already painted - but that’s another story….. Well this stupid light rattles when things get intense. I call it my “Little flashlight test”. This movie passed the little flashlight test.
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I put in the HT Tune-up DVD, go to audio tests, start the individual channel tones, LF being first. I adjust my processor master volume to where the LF channel reads 75dB on meter. Then I leave the processor's master volume alone and go through C, RF, LS and RS and tweak their individual "volume adjust" settings in the processor until they each read 75dB on the meter.
Then I do the sub, but I adjust its volume (I usually use the volume knob on the back of the sub) until the SPL meter reads 72.5dB.
Well,
My system has been here but not used, because I've been working on pulling the QS8 wires through the wall. Now they are mounted, no wire visible. Looks goooood.
Sat down again with the SPL meter, calibrated all speakers to 75dB and sub to 72.5dB. I thought to myself, I won't even be able to hear LFE, but I'll try it anyway.
I found another thread that suggested the inside-the-whale's-mouth scene in "Finding Nemo" for good LFE.
WOW! It was awesome. The sub sounded awesome and shook me awesome, especially since the dialog before the big LFE was pretty much LFE-less, and then all of the sudden that roar... Man! Rick, thanks a bunch again for recommending this sub. I am really really glad I bought it.
Now to the tweaking of the M22s for better 2-channel sound(stage), etc.
Regards,
I think I was the one that mentioned that part of Nemo, pretty awesome huh? Just wait until you get to the Darla "Tap" part in the dentist office.
And wait until you get that sub calibrated jussst right.
Your welcome Rodney, I am pleased you are enjoying the VTF 2.3.