Home Theater Questions (Axiom Epic 80/350)

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Hello everyone! I will start off with some general information about my room, budget, and listening preferences... then get into the specifics of my questions. I am starting with an empty room (see floor plan below) and a ~$4k budget for a Receiver and 5.1 speaker system. I am also thinking of ~$350 towards a nice DVD player (non-HD/BluRay) for my CD/DVD listening/viewing. I would like to put about $2k into a 50-55” TV (I have a good idea of what I’m going to be doing in this area, but just thought I’d throw it out incase people have comments). This budget doesn’t include extras like cables, etc. so don’t worry about leaving room for those in the ~$4k. If you have recommendations for the extras feel free to go into that stuff too!

My Room:

My viewing room is approximately 9’ wide, 14’ deep, and 18’ tall. This is only one part of a larger room that is about 14’ by 33’ by 18’. The 14’ long wall (right side of viewing area) includes a large 18’ tall window, but it will be covered with fabric window treatments (reducing light and hopefully helping the sound a little). To the right side of the TV area is also a standard size (~36” wide, ~7’ tall) glass-in-frame door. Above the TV location in another window ~48” wide and ~9’ tall). To the left side of the viewing area there is a large metal spiral staircase. Lastly, the staircase leads to a loft that is ~11’ x 11’ x 9’ (adding to the volume of the room where the viewing area will be). The ceiling is flat (all right angles to the walls) and continuous through the whole room/loft).

Music/Movie Preferences:
Because this has an impact on this I’ll go into it briefly. I like rock/metal music mostly (I describe it as anything rock up until people start just screaming). I also listen to quite a bit of electronic/techno type of things as well. I can appreciate some classical music, jazz, instrumentals, etc. too. Basically, I’ll listen to anything but rap or country. For movies, I like action flicks and sci-fi sort of things (explosions are good). My demo music has been “Battery” by Metallica (it has a nice guitar instrumental intro that transitions into a hard, very quick, session of rock) and The Matrix (the lobby shootout scene has some great surround as well as fine details).

Receiver:
I’m looking at getting the Denon AVR-2807 ($1099) to power the system. I like many of the features available in this receiver (I can go into this more if people like), but if people have comments or other receivers to look into at this price range please feel free to comment.

DVD Player:
So far I’m looking towards the Denon DVD-757 for the ability to play burned media, as well as the 1080p scaling. Again, please feel free to comment or to suggest other players in this price range.

5.1 Speaker System:
Ok, to the heart of it (and if you’ve sat through all the previous commentary, thank you). I would like a system that can handle both my music and movie needs. I don’t mind large speakers/sub, so there isn’t a need for small sizes to hide away. I would like to get a package that allows for a great sense of environment/surround (you know that feeling when you want to look behind you to see the thing you just heard wiz by your ear), as well as great stereo/music performance.

Axiom Epic 80/350 ($2808)
M80 Towers
VP150 Center
QS8 Surrounds
EP350 Subwoofer
Likes: ???
Dislikes: ???

Klipsch RF-62 ($2644)
RF-62 Towers
RC-62 Center
RS-52 Surround
RW-12d Subwoofer
Likes: Great detail in the highs. Nice surround action.
Dislikes: Sub was slightly overpowering and obvious in the room (I could tell where the sub was by ear).

Definitive Technology ($2447)
BP7004 Towers
CLR2002 Center
BP1X Surrounds
Likes: Two subs (in front towers) eliminated the directionality of the bass in the room
Dislikes: Highs not as well defined as the Klipsch system.

So this leads me to my main questions:

With the described room and budget, what 5.1 Speaker System would you get and why? Do you feel that the Axiom system I describe will be able to meet me needs? Is there something different I should do within the budget (like getting M60s and a EP500 – or pair of EP350 – rather than getting the M80s)? Are there other brands/systems that I should be looking into? Any other things I should be concerned about?

Thank you all for any information, it is much appreciated. I'm surely going to need to listen to an Axiom system before buying (and I'll talk a look at the thread for people in my area), but all information is helpful!

-Todd...

Todd, welcome. Lots of details, but my first impression is that for that room volume and to fit your budget, the M60s plus EP500 would be better overall.

Your present arrangement has the mains separated by 5' or less and you're sitting about 12' away. If possible it would be desirable to have the two distances about equal. Would it be acceptable to rotate everything(except the sub) ninety degrees clockwise and have the mains separated about 8-9' at the edges of the big window with the seating being about 8-9' away?

If you're getting a 1080 set, such as the Sony LCoS, which has good scaling, the scaling of the player wouldn't be used and something could be saved there.

No problem with the 2807(note that the new 2808 is due in about 2-3 months)if the features suit you.

Considering shipping costs, wire for the speakers may be most economical at a local source such as Home Depot or Lowes. Connecting cables at a reasonable price and which do the job as well as anything else are available at online sources such as MonoPrice.

Can you put the TV and main speakers on the wall where the couch is, and vice versa? This will allow you to place your mains further apart.

The Denon 2807 will do extremely well. I hear great reviews about the unit, and I used to use a Denon with my Axiom Epic 80 and it was a great combination.

For a DVD player, I would look no further than Oppo. The 981 is superb and only about $199-$229 depending on the deal you find.

Assuming your apartment is soundproof, I would go with an EP500. If that's too rich for your blood, an SVS or HSU would suit your needs.

I personally don't like Klipsch speakers at all. I find them very bright and they induce listening fatigue within minutes. I can't say I have ever heard Definitive Technology, or I have but they were not memorable so I have forgotten them.

For your sized room and with a sub, you could go for M60's to save some money. Personally, I would choose M60's and EP500 rather than M80's and EP350.

Todd, you have a lot of options to play with. I'd like to further expand on JohnK's suggestion of rotating the whole set-up and move it 180 degrees, placing the main speakers against the longer wall. This way, you won't be blocking the window and you will also be able to get more separation between the left and right channels--something more preferable to your seating distance.

You mention that you thought the sub was overpowering in the Klipsch set-up. I don't think that is a fault of the sub itself, but more of calibration and placement. Do not be afraid of getting too much sub for a room, you can always adjust the volume down. I would much rather have too much sub, than one that is just barely adequate. Trust me on this one. You like action movies and hard rock. A capable sub is a must.

Definitely look into auditioning some systems. I think the M80s or M60s will do you just fine.

Hi Todd,

Like others have said, your present plan has you sitting too far away from the speakers for their separation. Also, sitting against the back wall is not great for fidelity. If you can't place as JohnK has suggested, perhaps you can move the couch closer to the center of the room.

With regard to Klipsch, stay away! You will be fatigued very easily with those horns and the imaging, detail and sound-stage will suffer. The reason you localized the Klipsch sub was because it distorted...not because of placement. I have the EP600 and last night, my sister was sitting right next to it in the big cushy chair (see pictures of my set-up on the wall of fame) watching U-571 and she claims she could not localize the LFEs. That's because the sub was not distorting (but my house sure was

).

For your room size, based on my experience and posts from others, you should go with no less than an EP500. I have the M80/VP150/QS8/EP600 system and I can tell you that it has me and others shedding tears of joy every time we listen to it be it movies or music. Good luck.

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The reason you localized the Klipsch sub was because it distorted...not because of placement.

True. I once owned a Klipsch sub, and it noticeably distorted when trying to play too low, or when it was pushed too hard.

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So far I’m looking towards the Denon DVD-757 for the ability to play burned media, as well as the 1080p scaling. Again, please feel free to comment or to suggest other players in this price range.

Instead of looking at regular upscaling player, I would look at something like the Toshiba XA2 HD player, not only would you get superb upscaling features, you can play SACD, CD's as well as HDDVD's, and the price is probably getting close to the Denon.

Wow... thank you all for the information (and so quickly)! I've grouped things into a few different sections for this next round of questions.

Room Setup:

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Your present arrangement has the mains separated by 5' or less and you're sitting about 12' away. If possible it would be desirable to have the two distances about equal. Would it be acceptable to rotate everything(except the sub) ninety degrees clockwise and have the mains separated about 8-9' at the edges of the big window with the seating being about 8-9' away?

Rotating 90 degrees is not possible. Would it be better to have the viewing distance equal at 5' (fronts separated by 5' and the couch 5' from the TV), or to have things equal at ~12'?

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Can you put the TV and main speakers on the wall where the couch is, and vice versa? This will allow you to place your mains further apart.

This is an option. The cable/satellite connections (and a plasma mount that I'm not planning on using) are located where the TV is right now. I will have to run wires around the room regardless of the placement of TV, so this may be a viable option. My biggest concern would be the placement of the surrounds to the left/right of a couch in a ~7' space... given a full-sized couch is ~7' wide. Wall mounting the surrounds is not an option. This may be an excuse to get a recliner for a totally "me centered" room!

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your present plan has you sitting too far away from the speakers for their separation. Also, sitting against the back wall is not great for fidelity... perhaps you can move the couch closer to the center of the room.

I was thinking of moving the couch about foot off the rear wall to help in getting the surrounds behind my listening position a tad. Much more than a foot really does cut into the room and walking paths. Would a foot be enough?

Speakers (mostly Sub talk):

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I think the M80s or M60s will do you just fine.

Is there a noticeable difference between these two? Would I be kicking myself for not going with the M80s?

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You mention that you thought the sub was overpowering in the Klipsch set-up. I don't think that is a fault of the sub itself, but more of calibration and placement. Do not be afraid of getting too much sub for a room, you can always adjust the volume down. I would much rather have too much sub, than one that is just barely adequate. Trust me on this one. You like action movies and hard rock. A capable sub is a must.

I understand. I actually told the person giving the demo no to adjust the sub lower when listening to music (that was the main time I noticed it), and know I can tone things down (that's not the reason I was going with the 350... more for budget). I'm not afraid of having too much sub for the room (in college I had a pair of 12" under my couch in a room a fraction of this size and it could have used some more bass without complaint from me).

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Assuming your apartment is soundproof, I would go with an EP500... For your sized room and with a sub, you could go for M60's to save some money. Personally, I would choose M60's and EP500 rather than M80's and EP350.

The room isn't totally sound proof (Condo is on the top floor corner), but the wall where the sub is placed is an exterior wall (no one is behind the ~19' wall). If I can keep the sub over in that area (on that long wall) I think I'd only have to deal with the people below me (which may be easier said than done). Is the performance difference between the EP350 and EP500 that different?

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For your room size, based on my experience and posts from others, you should go with no less than an EP500.

Would two EP350 be acceptable? Would a single EP500 be preferred over a pair of EP350s? (A note: I'd love a system with the EP600 flat in the front/center, but I don't think any of my neighbors - let alone my budget - would allow me to get away with that setup!) Would I be better off getting the M80s and a EP350 at first, then add a second EP350 if it's not enough... or is a single EP500 a better performing option, and worth going with M60s?

Video/DVD:

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If you're getting a 1080 set, such as the Sony LCoS, which has good scaling, the scaling of the player wouldn't be used and something could be saved there.

I am looking at the Sony KDS-55A2020 (55" 1080p LCD projection), so I don't know if it has scaling... but the Denon AVR-2807 does have scaling, so a less expensive DVD player may be in order (I do like the ability to read burned media though).

Again, thank you all for the assistance with this!

-Todd...

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Instead of looking at regular upscaling player, I would look at something like the Toshiba XA2 HD player, not only would you get superb upscaling features, you can play SACD, CD's as well as HDDVD's, and the price is probably getting close to the Denon.

I'd like to stay away from a HD/BluRay player at this time. I have an XBox360 so can get the HD drive for $200... and I'm more than likely going to get a PlayStation3 in a short time for BluRay ability if I need it. I'd much rather wait for the formats to settle down before investing into a detected HD/BluRay player. The more I think about things, I will more than likely shave a few hundred off on the DVD player (I still want it to have HDMI and Digital Coax).

-Todd...

If you plan on the M60 or M80, I doubt that a 5 foot listening distance would give these speakers enough room to properly "mix" the sound from the various drivers. Placing them 12 feet apart and sitting 12 feet away is a much better configuration.

Moving the couch a foot forward is certainly better than right against the wall. This will really help with bass and mid-bass and surround effects.

From everything that I've read multiple subs is certainly the way to go if you have theatre-style, row seating. But if you have more traditional seating where everyone is on a couch, it's probably not that important. My own experience with traditional seating is that one EP600 is enough and one EP500 should be enough for your volume. The 500 will go lower and louder than the 350 and from reports from others, it's smoother and more musical than the 350. Going low is important for me when I'm watching movies. Do you really want to lose that last 8 Hz of deep, deep bass for a few hundred bucks

The main difference between M60’s and M80’s is that the M80’s can handle more power and play louder. Sonically, they are nearly identical, but I hear the 80’s do have a little something extra over the 60’s in terms of effortlessness and dynamics, but that the difference is not that noticeable. Remember that with the 80’s you’ll need an amp that can drive their 4 ohm load, which the Denon can.

I used to own an EP350, and it was a good sub, but I felt it did not have enough oomph to compliment my speakers (epic80) properly. I hear the 500 and 600 do with ease. They are really in a class of their own with the DSP chip in them and bigger amps. With your size apartment, and the fact that it’s not fully soundproof, I’d stop at the 500. You’d be surprised how much bass travels in apartment buildings. Are the floors concrete? This will help soundproofing if they are.

I also am convinced that the Oppo 981 is the DVD player for you. Check www.oppodigital.com.

Todd,

I was in the same price range as you are and this is what I did. It’s almost the same as you put together but it gets you both the M80s and the EP500.

2xM80s, 1xVP150, 2xQS8s and EP500 (from factory outlet w/ht discount) $3000.10

DENON AVR-2807 (B-stock from Dakmart) $782.57 (including shipping)

Oppo DV-981 $236.95(including shipping)

Total 4019.62

I have never had a playback problem with recorded media on the Oppo. I use DVD+R DL, DVD+R/RW, DVD-R/RW and CD -R/RW. Be aware the 981 only has HDMI output. Any way you cut it Oppo makes great upscalling players.

Dakmart sometimes takes awhile to ship depending if they have anything in stock from Denon. The B-stock only has a 90 day vs 1 year warranty but otherwise Denon makes it like new. The Denon website has a list of authorized resellers if you choose to go this route.

The reason I suggest you get the M80 is that if you are like many of us you will always wonder if you should have. Same with the EP500. It really is a cut above the EP350. I got them even though I live in an apartment since I wanted to future proof myself for when I get a house.

When I researched getting my HT setup back in December one common theme I ran across was to get the best speakers you can afford at the time. Much more likely technology will drive you to upgrade your DVD player, receiver or display before you your speakers.

You could also get a good sub from HSU or SVS and probably save a little more money or invest it in a something like a “Buttkicker.” Some people don’t like them but since I live in a top floor apartment I love it. I can play my sub at neighbor friendly levels while still feeling the LFE. But try a sub alone first since it may be enough for you.

Have fun shopping,
Dean

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The reason I suggest you get the M80 is that if you are like many of us you will always wonder if you should have. Same with the EP500. It really is a cut above the EP350.

Well, you'd never know the difference between an M80 and a lower model unless you heard them both. By your philosophy, why stop at an EP500 when you can get an EP600

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By your philosophy, why stop at an EP500 when you can get an EP600

Three flights of stairs baby.

Besides he wanted to come in around 4k and I’ve heard you can always pair up a EP600 with an existing EP500 later.

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2xM80s, 1xVP150, 2xQS8s and EP500 (from factory outlet w/ht discount) $3000.10

Factory outlet does make this option feasible. Going with the M60 and the EP500 is also an option, but I'd swing the M80s if I can. I guess it's time to setup a demo... I need to hear the highs and mids on these things!

-Todd...

Todd, on the TV question, actually that was exactly the Sony that I guessed from the size and budget considerations. It's a LCoS, rather than an LCD model, and along with all(other than CRT)HD sets it has to scale incoming material which doesn't match its "native resolution"(1080 in this case)to even display a complete picture. The only question would be whether a player or receiver(actually the 2807 doesn't scale)would do a visibly better job than the set itself does. Those Sonys are notably good in that respect and it's unlikely that a player or receiver would significantly improve the scaling, so base your decision on those items on other features.

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It's a LCoS, rather than an LCD model... actually the 2807 doesn't scale

I've been looking at so many things lately I need to wrap my head around the specifics of each of these things after I take a listen. Thank you for the corrections.

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On the TV question, actually that was exactly the Sony that I guessed from the size and budget considerations... The only question would be whether a player or receiver would do a visibly better job than the set itself does.

Good to know I'm thinking down the right path. I had the same question about what would be the best for scaling... TV vs Receiver vs DVD...

I've really been putting the video side of things on lower priority than the sound at this point. I've always considered putting my money into the sound a better investment at this point... with the changing world of TVs, HD/BluRay formats, etc... my speakers will be still around and kicking for years to come!

-Todd...

Well, I did a demo today and I think I'm in trouble...

I've decided the M80s are the way to go, which is a good thing... but now that I've listened to (or more accurately felt) an EP600 I don't know if I can bring myself to just getting an EP500 (and the EP350 is long gone). Oh well, I knew this would happen... and I have some tough decisions to make... but I know that Axioms are going to be the way to go!

Thank you all for the advice!

-Todd...

PS - For those of you using the EP600 horizontally in the front (below the TV) how do you find the sound (relative to a vertically mounted one placed elsewhere in the room) and how do you have things arranged (tv stand, TV, center channel, etc.)?

Sirquack had an EP500 in his 8,000 cubic foot entertainment room before upgrading to an EP600. According to his posts, the two are very close in performance.

When I first received my 600, I tried many different locations in my 4,000 cubic foot room. And I tried vertical and horizontal. I even tried positioning it outside of my main room at the bottom of the stairs firing up into my main level. I also laid it horizontally right behind my couch. No matter how or where I positioned it, it filled the room with deep, powerful bass.

I'm not sure what you've decided for your room lay-out. I'm hoping that you decided to locate your equipment where you are showing your couch. You don't need to locate it between the two fronts to get good sound. Undistorted bass (unlike the Klipsch) is omni-directional. In my opinion, what would make the most sense for your room is to lay the 600 horizontally below the window. I think this will offer the best performance while giving you the flexibility to locate your A/V equipment between your M80s on/in a low profile cabinet. Also make sure though that the sub is elevated from the floor with spikes or feet to prevent your floor from coloring the sound.

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...but now that I've listened to (or more accurately felt) an EP600 I don't know if I can bring myself to just getting an EP500...

Todd,

Sonically, the EP500 & 600 are very similiar! You'll gain "2" whole notes on the bottom extension and "2" db more output with the EP600! Due to the physical differences however, the EP500 may be a better fit for your room (reason for my choice)!

Others here have had both and can make more objective suggestions. Either way, these Axiom subs are superb fits for both HT and Music!!

Ted

In my room, at movie listening levels, I get good output (80 dB) as low as 13 Hz. At music listening levels, I get the same output at 17 Hz. And that's with the 600 gain at 7 o'clock (ie. lots of room to spare) and the LFE gain on my Denon at -6 (it goes up to +12). I'm suspecting but can't be sure that my low end is limited more by my bottom-of-the-line Denon than my sub.

I'm not sure if the 500 would go this low. Also, the 600 cuts off higher than the 500 I think. This isn't important in this case but for those with book-shelf speakers, this may make a big difference.

Mojo,

I don't think your receiver is limiting the lower end. I'm sure the DSP in the 600 cuts off below 17 Hz, and at 19 Hz for the 500. They have essentialy the same top end at 100 Hz, at least very close- take a look at both of the response graphs.

As Theo said, the 600 plays 2 dB louder and 2 Hz lower. Relatively very similar to each other in my opinion. I have been more than happy with the performance from the EP500 in my room. So I would tell you that you shouldn't feel like you had to make a big sacrifice if you go with the 500. But by all means, if you want the 600 and have space for it, then do it. It's your theater, so enjoy!

Dave, I just have to say how much I like your theater. I look at your gallery from time to time and drool. I won't be making anything nearly as nice in my basement, but hopefully I'll be able to replicate a piece or two.

Hi Dave,

I also thought that the DSP in the 600 cuts off below 17Hz but it doesn't appear that this is the case.

When I use the RealTraps test tones, I have output right down to 10Hz. If I turn it up, I can rumble my entire house. Now the quality of the output is a different story. I know that I can't hear 10Hz, yet I am hearing it so that must mean there is a lot of distortion. So is the distortion the 600, the amp, the test CD or some combination thereof?

I know that practically this doesn't really matter. Some would say that you don't really have a sub unless it has loads of output at 4Hz. I'm not that fanatical. There is one thing that does bother me however. I have noticed that at 10Hz to 20Hz, the bass and mid drivers of the M80s respond and in a big way (by viusal inspection). I really don't understand this since the LFE cut-off on my amp is set to 80Hz. I'm not sure if the M80s are being driven "sympathetically" due to the ambient SPL. Another thing is that I am hearing shrillness from my tweeters at these very low frequencies. Is anyone else witnessing anything like this?

Do you still have your sub gain at 12 o'clock with your reciver at like -10dB? I'll try to test this asap, but I get no activity from my mains until much later, and my ep500 didn't kick in until around 17-18hz. This was following my system being calibrated to 75dB, all speakers to small, 80hz crossover on the AVR and sub on bypass. Also, I followed the realtraps cd pink noise test to make sure I was at the 78dB, per instruction.

My sub gain is now at 7 o'clock with the receiver at -6dB.

At these levels, my EP600 starts to make itself known at 16Hz. If I turn the LFE volume up on my Denon, I can definitely hear it at 10Hz (the first RealTraps tone). Thanks for any testing that you can do.

Interesting news Mojo. I've never really heard any output with the Realtrap tones below 19 Hz on my EP500. So I figured it was pretty close to the Axiom specs.

CV, Thanks so much for you nice words. I appreciate you taking the time to let me know. We just did the best we could, and that's all one can do. I'm sure you have done/will do a fantastic job. Just make sure to relax and enjoy it after all the work is done.

You haven't heard below 19 Hz because of the 500's filter or because you haven't turned the gain up enough? What happens if you turn it up? Do you hear anything?

Yes, you do have a very nice room. My family oogles at it from time to time

Interesting as a curiosity, but so little content goes below 20hz besides test tones.

I agree but why are my M80s responding the way they are?

I've never heard any sound out of the tweeter mains like you describe. I'm stumped on that one.

No, I've never turned the gain up above the 75 dB norm with the test tones, so maybe there is something lower on the 500.

It could be my amp then. It may not know what to do with 10 Hz tones.

Yes Mojo, that's the only thing I can think of. It shouldn't be sending anything to the M80s at all when your playing a 10 Hz tone!

Why would you want the gain turned up so far anyway? Like Dave, when everything is calibrated to 75dB's I get the same results...

Guys,

I have my LFE calibrated to 80dB and the rest of my system to 75dB. And I have my cut-off at 80Hz.

With a gain of -25 on my Denon (which is about a watt into each M80), when I put on the 10Hz tone, the woofers and mid-ranges of the M80s are pushing a lot of air. You can clearly see them moving from 6 feet away.

So, when you do that on your systems, do you see the M80 woofers and mids moving?

FYI, I have my Denon set so that LFE is going to the EP600 only...none to the M80s.

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So, when you do that on your systems, do you see the M80 woofers and mids moving?

No, mains are silent for any tone reasonably below the set 80 Hz x-over (say around 65 Hz or so). It sounds like there is something not right in your processor's setup, such as LFE set to "FULL + Sub" (but I realize you stated this was not the case). Even if it were, 10Hz is really much lower than the M80s could deal with anyway. I'm confused

* EDIT * After reading the other thread in Technical Questsions, I see that it was the Direct-Mode in the Dennon's, but I stand corrected in that the M80s apparently will attempt to handle frequencies as low as 10 Hz!

Just a little update. I remeasured the wall where my TV will be going and it is 8' NOT including the door (this is in my actual unit, not just the model). So seems like that location will work out really well.

I downloaded SketchUp tonight and played around with my new place. I have most of the walls, etc. up. Now I can start to place some furniture and audio equipment!

Once I get some more stuff in the place I'll update you all.

-Todd...

Nice-looking layout. Can't wait to see it full.

Second that. I really like the layout.

First and foremost -- that is a big honkin' room from a subwoofer's point of view. Definitely 60/500 over 80/350.

Second -- with open space on the left and window on the right, it's going to be a challenge getting good imaging. Any chance of rotating everything to the right by 90 degrees, so the speakers are flanking the window and the main listening chairs/couch act as a room divider between kitchen/dining and living room ?

If not, you're probably going to want to look at some heavy drapes for the window to try and match the open area on the left.

EDIT -- looks like I wasn't the first to suggest rotating the room