I can't seem to get around this...I love my Axioms in every way but one. The bass output of my VP150 sounds weaker than my fathers Bose lifestyle 48 system. How can that be? It is especially prominent with male dialogue. His Bose system sounds very, for lack of a better term, movie theater-like. Whereas my system sounds weaker, and some movies have very shrill high end dialog that is slightly irritating and sometimes creates a little distortion in the tweeter. Is this just the axiom style? Or is there some deficiency in my setup? Frankly this has been bothering me for a long time, how can those crappy little speakers sound so much more theatrical than my axioms? Is there something I can do to improve dialogue bass? I've seemed to play out every scenario within my Yamaha V2600 and nothing works. Is this what people have been talking about axioms being "accurate"?
Set up: Vp150(small), M60's(large), Qs8's(small), M2 backs(small), EP500(X-over 80hz) -- Yamaha V2600
Have you tried setting the VP150 to large? As for the shrillness, I have no clue what that could be.
I wanted to add that I just finished watching Unforgiven. I had one heck of a time understanding the dialogue. I tried raising the bass (via the tone control), increasing the centre channel volume, increasing the main gain...all to no good effect. I found however that by setting the centre to large (which by the way I can only do by setting the mains to large), I got very good understandability.
I've never had this problem before. It appears that the mixing on this movie could have been done better.
Drew, a couple of comments that might not solve the mystery, but should be relevant: my understanding is that in the Bose system neither the cube surrounds nor the small center can handle below about 250Hz and that the bass module has a crossover to take care of even the upper bass frequencies, so you're not actually hearing the "itty bitty" speakers there. When you speak of an 80Hz crossover on the EP500, if you mean that the control on the back is set to that, then you should set it to "Bypass" instead, in case this is causing some mid-bass weakness in the "small" speakers. From what you say, you've apparently already experimented with various crossover frequencies on the 2600 in the 80-120Hz area.
Your overall impression of the VP150 doesn't seem to be that of other users, so you might contact Axiom on the possibility that it's defective. One suggestion would be to temporarily move one of your M2s into position as a vertical center(replacing the VP150)to investigate the likelihood of a problem with the VP150.
Seconded. That "shrill sound" doesn't seem right. Give Axiom a call and more info.
I really hate it when voices try to sneak through my sub. And if I cross at 80hz, sometimes they try. So I use an M3 for center crossed at 60 and no voices! And the M3s happily cross at 60 and still have plenty of bass available down there so....no itty-bitty sound from the center, and no distracting voices from the sub, which may sound theater-like; but can tend to occasionally foil the dialog.
Best of both worlds!
I've tried setting my center at large but it didn't seem to do much. I then tried playing movies in two channel with my M60's but it didnt seem significantly better. The Bose system has nice oomph in male dialog that has a movie theater vibe to it. I'm pretty sure there is something slightly wrong with my VP150's right tweeter though, which is dissapointing, this is the second defective speaker i've recieved from Axiom, the other being an EP500.
are you comparing the same movie on both systems?
all movies have different quality of sound, I am assuming you used the same source material?
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I've tried setting my center at large but it didn't seem to do much. I then tried playing movies in two channel with my M60's but it didnt seem significantly better.
When I first got my M60s, I did notice that the bass coming from those 6.5s wasn't very pronounced. But, since then I've changed my mind, as a matter of fact, I shut down my sub about a week ago and I haven't had the desire to fire that bugger up during those 7 days. I have them set to large and I like what I'm hearing. Brucie likey wingy.
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I've tried setting my center at large but it didn't seem to do much. I then tried playing movies in two channel with my M60's but it didnt seem significantly better. The Bose system has nice oomph in male dialog that has a movie theater vibe to it. I'm pretty sure there is something slightly wrong with my VP150's right tweeter though, which is dissapointing, this is the second defective speaker i've recieved from Axiom, the other being an EP500.
Dumb question but: Did you check your tone settings? I have my bass setting on +4 over zero and my treble setting at zero. This has nothing to do with large or small settings and nothing to do with the x-over setting. At first I set the treble to -2 under zero but found the highs lacking so I re-set it back to zero and it seems just fine. To reiterate, I don't think you need to set the VP150 to large as it is not capable of playing such low frequencies and it will just steal power from the other speakers. Just bump the BASS tone up a little and see if this doesn't help. 
Another dumb one. Have you calibrated the system?
My experience with the Bose systems is that because they use a "bass module" instead of a true subwoofer, the Bose over-emphasize the 100Hz -> 200Hz frequencies to "trick" the listener into hearing lots of bass. It's really no different than what you'll find on boomboxes, etc.
Many male announcers boost this same rough frequency range to add "authority" to their voice...aren't we all
James Earl Jones wannabees when on the mic?
Certainly, I'm not discounting the possibility of a problem with your 150, but I'm wondering if the Bose "bloatiness" of those frequencies doesn't lead your 150 to sound "thin" in comparison...more like
Regular Earl Jones. In this case, it's not an issue with the 150, but rather your being used to the other sound...
Haha...Yes i calibrated the system and yes I've toyed with the tone controls. Listen, I'm not complaining about the bass in my system or in the M60's, I have huge bass! It's just the dialog bass that seems a little weak. I've used the same source material on both systems, Star wars, finding nemo, and regular tv. Bose sounds better only in dialog, everything else the axioms blow it away. The problem is that I would say is I find the dialog to be significantly better, even in low volumes, the Bose has nice theater sounding dialog to it. Perhaps just preferance, but it really bothers me.
For the record, I changed the center channel settings back to small, as it didnt do anything.
Well I'm not used to the other sound, I just prefer it. On the contrary, I'm used to axioms sound.
I guess the question is whether the Bose sound or the Axiom sound are more accurate. Theater sound isn't necessarily all that good, it's just common.
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Theater sound isn't necessarily all that good, it's just common.
Exactly. What you're experiencing is most likely just accurate sound. Since you're not used to it, it sounds wrong. That feeling will pass.
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Bose sounds better.. the Bose has nice theater sounding dialog to it.
Blasphemy, you're hurting my eyes, may the gods of audio smite you in your sleep! Gather the mob, sharpen the pitch forks and slay the heathen!
JUST KIDDING!!!! 
Boy, if you were to say such things on some of the larger forums out there where all the BOSE bashers dwell, they would roast you over a spit! 
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For the record, I changed the center channel settings back to small, as it didnt do anything.
Interesting. When I mess with the Large/Small settings I notice a decent difference in the sound. I put my center on Large, and it had a more pronounced mid/low (as would be expected) which sounds like what you were looking for, so I am just wondering why it didn't sound different for you. I don't have a Yamaha V2600, so I can't comment on it, but it still might be something in there that could be adjusted to "overcompensate" in the midrange to produce the sound that you want.
I guess that is, barring a product defect, where I would look. I mean, the Axioms are more "accurate" have a more "flat" frequency response, etc, which means that the input to the speakers will have a bigger impact on them as they will play more correctly what the system is sending to them. When running the Bose, you are dealing with the whole Bose system, which takes the input (from my understanding) and "tweaks" it electronically and breaks up the signal to different speakers (cube and bass module for Bose, vs. just center channel like just about all other brands I can think of). These "tweaks" actually alter the sound to be the way that Bose wants them, and not always the way that the sounds was designed to be.
Here is an example from my life (not using Bose) in which it took me a while to adjust to Axioms. My first theater was a "the more speakers you have, the better"... I had adjusted and messed around with the speakers to death to get what was a really impressive (not accurate) sound. Meaning, lots of highs, and killer bass. People were impressed, and I was happy. When I got my Axioms, I loved the way that they sounded, but it still took me a while to get used to the fact that I actually had some midrange, and that clean bass is better than muddy low end.
My old system was (gasp... I don't think that I've ever admitted to this before) full of KLH speakers. Back when all there was for digital audio was 5.1 (no 6.1 or 7.1), I had wired up a Frankenbeast of speakers. I had Front R/L speakers with 15" woofers, I has dual center channels, I actually had smaller front right-center and front left-center speakers (blending the center channels to the front R/L), I had speakers on the side of the room, and a funky shaped rear R/L speaker. I had a powered sub up front, and a passive sub under my seat risers. Throw bass-shakers on each theater seat, and a couple under the couch up front, and it was impressive. Just not very accurate...
Pictures of my crazy set up are on my web page under the V1.0 link...
Anyway, I am not saying that something isn't wrong, but we just want to make sure that you are trying everything, and that nothing is overlooked. You asked for help, and we are trying. Without being on-site, it is hard to diagnose the problem.
Where are you located at? Maybe someone can help you in person. That is what this community is all about. Helping the fellow audio enthusiast.
LOL. I just saw another post stating that the new user ScoobyDoo says that his VP150 has TOO MUCH bass....
Too funny... I guess it jsut goes to show that there are a lot of factors in getting the sound right. If you start with a good quality performer like the Axioms, and as long as nothing is broken, then there are a slew of other factors to examine.
I was told a thing or two about Bose being really lousy, and they certaintly don't compare to my axioms, but they're not all that terrible, just way too pricey.
I live in College Point in Queens, New York. I'd love for someone to let me know if there is something wrong with my center channel, that'd be a great deal of help.
I hate to keep asking you questions like this, but welcome to remote troubleshooting... I see you have a Yamaha 2600. If you used auto-setup, I believe that model also does equalization on the speakers. Alan has mentioned (although people vehemently disagree with him) that he finds this to cause problems with the sound. There should be a way to turn off the parametric EQ and leave on the distance and level settings. Worth a shot, if you haven't tried it.
No, I did the level and distance settings myself.
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No, I did the level and distance settings myself.
But did you hook up the mic to the yammie and go through the system calibration? If you did, then there will most likely be room accoustics balancing done by the Yammie from the test tones it goes through.
If this is the case you need to go through the manual set up and check each speaker and remove the equalization.
I don't even recall any mic, I did all that myself with an SPL meter. People tell me those auto setups aren't good, so I used their advice.
Drew-
Have you put your ear up to each driver to ensure it's working? Called Axiom?
something that no one has mentioned, make sure your VP150 is wired in phase with the receiver.
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something that no one has mentioned, make sure your VP150 is wired in phase with the receiver.
Oooooh! Good One!
Drew, your second post in which you apparently indicate that even with the M60s handling the center in "phantom" mode, the center was disappointing, suggests to me that there was merit in Mark's comment, although you tended to dismiss it. The Bose may in fact be producing a unrealistically bloated response in the upper bass frequencies, which may nevertheless sound impressive to you.
You haven't heard from me that the auto-setup is no good; my view is that it's at least as accurate as the result from using a separate SPL meter and making adjustments manually would be. In any case, if you're calibrated at least reasonably well(but check the polarity anyway), that along with the M60s "phantom" try indicates that the problem is likely to be with the Bose.
Someone has probably already mentioned this ... but when my speakers are well balanced with the subwoofer(s) you can't tell where the subs are or the point of origin for low frequencies ... instead, it makes the speakers sound huge ... or even more to the point, when perfect, you get that great 'wall of sound' effect, with sides and backs providing whizzing bullets, cavitating helicopter rotors, foot steps, etc.
I had the same type thing happen with my VP100. Shrill, scratchy dialog. Turned out to be the speakers, got replacements and all is well. I couldn't ever narrow down which one was doing it so they just sent me two new ones.
Bill3508
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I was told a thing or two about Bose being really lousy, and they certaintly don't compare to my axioms, but they're not all that terrible, just way too pricey.
I live in College Point in Queens, New York. I'd love for someone to let me know if there is something wrong with my center channel, that'd be a great deal of help.
Ah. I was just down there on sunday wish i had known. Not sure when i would be in the area again but if you dont have it resolved maybe i could bring my VP150 down for you to compare.
Jake
That would be great, of course I wouldn't want to impose. Whenever you're in the area you send me a PM and I'll make myself available to your convenience.
The high-end shrillness is only on certain movies, most recently while watching Letters From Iwo Jima it seemed like every other word the tweeter was making some annoying crackling noise. It also happens very loudly while playing Fight Night Round 3 while trainers are speaking. This also happens while watching most older and poorly mixed movies.
I have to quickly add also, Axioms forums maybe the most informative and friendly audio/visual related board I've ever visited. A friend of mine commented that if I had gone to most other boards and made those comments regarding Bose, people wouldn't even have responded and certaintly not as kindly as you all have. I have to admit, I'm not a frequenter of most forums, so I have to ask...Why does everyone have such animosity towards Bose? I know it has something to do with them being overrated or whatever but I hear its a little more deeply rooted than that. So what is the story behind all that?
The biggest issue I have with Bose is that they continue to push "Better sound through research" but they haven't researched sound since the introduction of the 601 Series II in 1984. This in my opinion was the last decent-sounding speaker that Bose made.
Whatever research Bose is conducting today certainly has nothing to do with sound. I'm sure though they research material and labor productivity. Prices have been climbing and materials and workmanship are cheaper than ever. They still continue to use paper (untreated) drivers and foam surrounds. And the same 4", $2 speakers that were used in TVs from the 60s are still used as tweeters in their speakers. And they still don't publish specs on their speakers because their frequency response curves would make people nauseous I'm sure. They really ought to be ashamed of themselves!!!
I honestly don't understand how anyone can get up in the morning and go to work for their speaker division.
If <political figure whose name rhymes with tush> can wake up and go to work in the morning, anyone can.
He has the power of head vacancy, though.
My dislike of Bose is similar to my dislike of Monster Cable:
They over-market themselves to convince consumers that don't know any better that their brand is above reproach. Many consumers will spend 5X more than necessary on these products as opposed to comparable ones from other companies because they think "with the Bose or Monster name on it, it's gotta be the best"....when that's not at all true.
To me, it's almost akin to the snake oil companies, though not quite as flagrant. "It's better because we tell you it's better." A knowledgeable consumer who has done some research won't bite, but the person who "trusts" that Bose or Monster Cable name often won't research it at all. "It's a lot more expensive, so it must be better!"
Disclaimer: If someone IS familiar with the "opposing viewpoint" on these products, but still chooses to purchase them because of the unobtrusiveness of the speakers or they like the sound or form-factor of the system or the cool gold plating on the cable connectors, more power to them. It's a free country, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's the deception part that bugs me!
Sorry about the rant, I just really dislike false and misleading advertising.
Quite frankly, I don’t understand the bad rap Bose gets. It’s clear that Bose main product is the ‘almost invisible’ cube speaker. Who has the best product in that market by far? Bose. They make an average sounding system w/ an absurdly small footprint. Now, to be honest, I’m no expert or have done much research on that market section to know all their competitors. Most of the audio people shun that market segment, but I see it as a completely valid one. I personally value more sound quality than , shall I say, WAF but I understand why people would choose small tiny cubes.
Now Monster cables… I’m w/ you on that one.
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Who has the best product in that market by far? Bose.
Not even remotely, there are several companies that have received very high acclaim for there satellite systems, Anthony Gallo Round Sound and Orb Audio to name a couple, there are also many other good satellite systems out there.
You would be hard pressed to find a reputable review of a Bose system since the industry knows what they are all about.
I fell for their marketing and hype about 15 years ago and owned a Bose sytem, and to be honest, at the time I thought they were great. Now that I know better I realize you can get a far superior satellite system for less than half the cost.
The HSU satellite system has received alot of high reviews, for only $299, it beats the crap outa bose!
True, they are way bigger though.
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True, they are way bigger though.
How much smaller do you want to get?
This kind of brings something to my mind now that we are completly off topic...I wonder how much Axioms desktop speakers are compared to these? And I also wonder how much a 5.1 system would cost? I know axiom is making a mini 5.1 system for computer use, however, they should consider making a micro 5.1 system with speakers that have binding posts...
When I had Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble 1s, I found them far superior to Bose. They also cost 1/4 as much. Of course, now I find them to be severely lacking in midrange.
Sold them to a guy a few months ago. I had them sitting on top of the M80s to demo them for him.
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they are way bigger though
Hsu's Ventriloquist speakers are 6inches by 4inches by 3inches...is there REALLY such a strong need for yet smaller speakers?
This is all just a little alien to me. I feel like an anthropologist trying to understand some strange other culture that fetishizes bound feet or extended necks...what is this strange obsession with teeny-tiny speakers?
They're much easier to hide.
I had a client once who had a professionally setup stereo (she said) with Bose cubes in the corners of the room and a Marantz receiver.
The Bose bass module (1 6 1/2" woofer inna box...) was in the closet with the receiver. Sigh.
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what is this strange obsession with teeny-tiny speakers?
I think that some spouses feel that large speakers ruin the "style of a room, and channel college days of dorm rooms with big speakers and milk crates...
And to be honest, at a certain age (oh, probably my age would be the border...), when tower speakers are mentioned to your average person, they think of gigantic floorstanders with 15" woofers and whatnot. And those things are almost universally hideous.
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they are way bigger though
Hsu's Ventriloquist speakers are 6inches by 4inches by 3inches
Some Bose cubes are 3.1 x 3.1 x 4.1 These are the solid "cube" and not the ones where the top twist, which are more comparable to the HSU cubes. Those Bose "twisty" cubes are 6.25 x 3.125 x 4.125. So then the HSU are the same size (possibly a hair smaller), but with better build and sound...
At home I have a link about what makes up a Bose speaker, but I can't find it, and Google lists WAY too many results.
But you are right, this is off topic. We need to find out how to get this guy's VP150 sounding like it should.
Has Axiom been called yet?
Bose exemplifies the triumph of marketing over quality.
Lots of people are simply unwilling to research complicated purchases. We are not them.
IMO, a decent in-wall speaker would far outperform the Bose cubes and be even more invisible. So, we have to attribute Bose success to not only form factor, but also to inability or unwillingness to cut drywall and fish wires. I'm betting that MOST Bose systems have speaker wire hanging down the wall, or that they are on stands (either of which totally defeats their aesthetic value).
It's a physics problem. The cubes don't have sufficient volume to produce frequencies below a certain point (150Hz? 200Hz?) without using esoteric drivers and extremely high power, both of which would be expensive (if possible at all). So, the crossover network shifts those easily localized frequencies to the woofer box, which is also underpowered and incapable of playing lower frequencies.
And - let's be honest here - most women don't care nearly as much about electronics as men do. They might know they want better sound than just the TV, but don't enjoy the research and don't want to un-feng their shui.
I think people who buy Bose speakers are the same ones that pay BB to "install" their home theatre (i.e. $200+ to attach the cables between the TV and the receiver).
Frankly, if the form factor is THAT big a deal, I think consumers would be much better served by one of the Yamaha sound projectors.
Ditto Michael on the Gallos.
The VP150 is a tank. I watch a lot of 5.1 content (video games and TV,and movies as well) and a good amount of oomph comes from that speaker for sure.
As for the M60's, I just cranked them without the sub on and they've got plenty of oomph, and they're not even taking all of the bass because the receiver is setup to send stuff to the sub.
I used them by themselves before the sub got here, and they're pretty damn powerful in my opinion, on all fronts they just project a very solid sound, they let you know they're there
- D
I found
this. My blood was boiling as I was reading it
.
$1300?!?!?!?
WOW!!!
You can buy 5 M2s, and an EP125 for under that amount, thats freaking insane!!!!
Axiom should start putting up billboards in wealthy cities (expecially in Calgary, where money seems to be flying around)...I am sure a well placed billboard for cars to see while entering downtown is around $5000/month...but I am sure they would generate alot of sales...
Great article Mojo, that ones getting bookmarked.
It's funny, some good friends asked me to help them find a small speaker system, they said they couldn't afford anything as good as Bose and wanted to stay around the $250.00 range. After having a good laugh and a couple weeks of searching I bought them the Onkyo SKS-HT240, it retails for about 499.00 I got it for pretty close to what they wanted to spend , the system has got some very good reviews for what it is. The system should be arriving tomorrow and I'll set it up for them this weekend, I'm kinda excited to see how good this little inexpensive system is.
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After having a good laugh and a couple weeks of searching I bought them the Onkyo SKS-HT240...
Wow, HomeDad, can you buy me the A1400 pretty please ?
Getting back to the issue at hand, I noticed that my Denon has something called Cinema Equalization. When this is on, it boosts the highs to compensate for losses if the centre is placed behind a screen. When set to off, dialogue is more "manly".
Also if you want to mimic theatre-like dialogue, turn your centre way, way up.
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Axiom should start putting up billboards in wealthy cities (expecially in Calgary, where money seems to be flying around)...
I don't know about you but I haven't seen any of this money flying around or I would have my family out with butterfly nets.
Money is indeed flying around in Calgary. The money however is owned by the banks. Too many people are living in a state of artificial wealth.