Newbie HT Purchase - Advice Appreciated

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Hi everyone,

I'm new to HT but am a seasoned veteran to appreciating high quality sound. I'd really love some advice on what I should do with my limited budget.

I'm looking to spend about $2,500 or so for Christmas towards some AV gear for our basement theatre that we're putting together. Early next year, I could throw some more money towards it, so, I'm looking at buying my gear in phases and would really like to enjoy each phase, rather than spend a lot of money and in return have a noticeably incomplete setup.

My theater room specs are roughly:

Total room size: 24' x 23'
Active theatre section of room: 17' x 14'
Distance of seating area to screen location: 12'
Area behind and to the right of seating area is a pool table/ bar section.
Ceiling height: 7'3"

There's a wooden support beam that runs along the ceiling parallel to the seating area and viewing screen. It runs at a 13' distance from the screen location that hangs down about a foot and is pre-wired for a projector. That same beam is also pre-wired 4' to the left and right of the projector for surround speakers. Hopefully that is okay, as that was how the house was wired when we bought it. The ceiling is made of pop-out paneling, so I could theoretically put speakers wherever I wanted pretty easily.

In regards to non-speaker gear, I need an AV Receiver and projector. I already have an extra DVD player (OPPO 981), a projector screen that came with the house, and a boat-load of wiring.

For the AV Receiver, I'm looking at the Onkyo TXSR605, which at $399, I've read it is a great deal. If you have suggestions otherwise, chime in!

For the projector, I'm looking at the Mitsubishi HD1000U, which I've read at $849, is a great buy. Again, recommendations?

But let's talk speakers!

I'm pretty sold on Axiom and I haven't heard a note yet. Scary, but I'm trusting the countless glowing reviews I've read on pretty much their entire line of products, and judging by the people on this board and their insights that I've read, I think the concept "smart people make smart purchases" applies to Axiom.

So... with the above 2 non-speaker items weighing in at about $1300, that leaves me with an immediate $1200 or so for speakers. Not a lot, trust me...I know. But, I've got to spend money on the kiddies and wife too.

But like I said, I can potentially triple that investment next year. Hope to, plan to.

The thing is, I don't want to spend $1200 on a very noticeably incomplete speaker set up right now, because I'd like it to be gratifying right off the bat, and more importantly, if it doesn't sound good, how do I explain the cost to my beautiful wife!?

Which brings me to the M60. Could/should/would I get the M60 and VP150 for about $1400 now, and later on, add to them with QS8's and a EP350? From what I read, the M60's are pretty incredible right from the start and can be added to later on.

Another option, more financially viable, is to only get the M60's right now (along with the AVR and Projector) and piece-meal the rest of my kick-butt Axiom Theatre next year.

Or...

Would I be better paying $1250 or so for for the M22's alongside some QS4's, a VP100 and the M22 stands (FMS16)? And later on I could add the EP350, etc. I'd like to eventually get the QS8's and VP150 instead, but maybe that is unnecessary?

Lastly, I should note, that I also own the following speakers that came with the house when we bought it, that, while not top-notch quality, could serve as the surround sound until better speakers are bought. Currently, they're used for our upstairs surround sound, but I have no prob moving them, I just don't want them to bring the quality of my theatre setup down.

Cambridge Soundworks Newton MC100 (Surround; I have 2)
Pioneer CS-X580K (Surround; I have 2)

So...summing up. The three options I'm looking at are:

Option #1: approx. $2250
Receiver Onkyo TXSR605 $399.99
Projector Mitsubishi HD1000U $849.99
Mains Axiom m60 $990.00

Option #2: approx. $2650
Receiver Onkyo TXSR605 $399.99
Projector Mitsubishi HD1000U $849.99
Mains Axiom m60 $990.00
Center Axiom VP150 $408.00

Option #3: approx. $2600
Onkyo TXSR605 $399.99
Mitsubishi HD1000U $849.99
Axiom M22 v2 $470.00
Axiom QS4 $428.00
Axiom VP100 $255.00
Axiom FMS16 $196.00 (stands)

Your thoughts? Thanks in advance and thanks for reading!

That's a tough one. I think I'd go with the incremental approach: M60s now, save money for a good sub next, then do a center, and then do surrounds. If you've already got something covering surround duty (even if it's not great--I don't know, I've never heard Newtons), then you're ok there. You'll want the sub before a center, I think.

I agree,

Get the sub before the centre. As for the speakers, the M60s and a sub would be a great place to start. Have you priced out the Factory Outlet? You get 10% off regular items, the majority of Axiomites on the forum bought from the FO.

In addition to that, your other option should be the M22 speakers and the EP500 sub (which I think you could squeeze into your budget for the first round). They will perform VERY well in your space, and you'll have the enjoyment of having high levels of play with bone crushing bass. If your setup is primarily home theatre, I would not hesitate to recommend the M22 EP500 combo. And if you're at all handy, you can build your own stands for $50 or less.

Thanks for the reply. In leu of having an immediate need for a sub, I wonder if the M80's would be a good choice, if I'm only to get 1 pair of speakers right now?

Would the above-mentioned Onkyo power those puppies?

Keep in mind you can order from the factory outlet and save 10%. Also, using phantom mode your left/right mains can simulate a center. So I would hold off on the center for now and focus on either surrounds or the sub.

Hey thanks guys for the head's-up on the Factory Outlet. I will definitely use that.

Quick questions: I really like the enthusiastic recommendation on the M22's and EP500. I forgot to mention I also have a Pioneer S-CR500 center speaker. Would I be better off to use the above-mentioned "phantom mode" on the l/r mains or to use the Axiom lefts and rights in conjuction with the not-so-great Pioneer speaker mentioned above?

Also, is the difference between the EP350 and EP500 substantial? There's a big jump in price there. Go for the 500?

One other question: If you were in my shoes, would you opt to stick with using solely the Axiom mains and sub, or would you use those AND incorporate the not-so-great surround speakers I mentioned above. I'm really after quality and would be okay with having a 2.1 setup versus as 5.1 if the sound-quality would drop by introducing the Cambridge and Pioneer speakers mentioned above.

Your thoughts?

The EP500 can reach lower than the EP350, and has a bigger enclosure size (can play louder), and also uses a digital DSP to control the accuracy of its output. In your room size, I would recommend the EP500 if you can swing it. It also has a bigger amp (500 watt vs 200 watt).

I think using your current surrounds will work until you can swing some QS8s (which freaking rock I might add). I would use just the axiom mains in phantom mode for the centre channel, it will probably sound better than using your other speaker.

If you're not doing the sub now, and you feel that you can swing the M80s, get them. You won't need a sub for a little while longer that way.

Well, other than LFE on DVDs...

I suggest you purchase the M80s, then the 500 and the centre last. In the meantime, use the speakers you have to complete your HT.

The Onkyo will have no trouble running your M80s. For reference, I have an almost identical room volume and I listen to music with a half watt per side and movies with a few watts. That leaves plenty of headroom for dynamics.

Good luck. I am sure you will enjoy your Axioms.

Please note that Alan has mentioned on past threads that many Onkyo's will shut down when driving the 4ohm 80's. This may not be true for the newest models. You may want to confirm with the mfg.

Some fantastic advice from all of you. Thank you!

Looking at my situation from the 2 prevailing angles: "Budget" and "Short Term vs. Long Term Satisfaction", it seems that the M80's would be a nice initial purchase, would fulfill my needs for "short-term satisfaction" within my budget, and also would provide the backbone to a larger more robust HT system with the 500, QS8's, etc. In short, they would get the job done and some.

@sirquack: I will definitely do my due diligence on the Onkyo. Thanks for the advice. If you have a better fit for an AVR in my price range, please let me know. I have no allegiance to any brand and would love to hear some other suggestions. Thanks!

@Mojo: Would you also suggest running the M80's in Phantom Mode as suggested by Sirquack and Hutzal, until I add the 500 and then the 150 and QS8's?

Thanks again everyone for the quick advice. You guys rock.

I would suggest the M22, Vp 150 and a Hsu VTF 2.3 sub. Skip the Axiom stands, there are less costly stands to be had or if you are handy you could build a set. Then you could save up for a set of surrounds for later. If you are going with the Onkyo I would suggest staying with an 8 ohm speaker.

Rick,

I am prettttty suprised to see THAT advise coming from your mouth!

(M22s when everyone else is suggesting M80s

)

Seeing the OP is looking at the Onyko and is on a rather limited budget I think he would be better served with the suggested system. I bet you weren't suprised by the Hsu suggestion though

Wid's probably right. It's easy to get carried away...

Try your Pioneer centre. If the tone isn't right, you can always switch to phantom mode.

The Onkyo has about half the dynamic power into 4Ohms that my cheap Denon has. I would expect that if you plan on pumping up the volume to ridiculously excessive levels, it would shut down particularly if you don't plan on buying a sub. But if you run it at moderate levels and are crossing over to a sub at 80Hz, you will not have a problem. Also make sure that it's ventilated adequately.

For $400, it's a heck of a deal. And if it doesn't "work", you can always take it back.

@wid: could you provide a link to the Hsu VTF 2.3? I can't seem to find that model on the HSU website. I appreciate your help. Your recommendation is similar to my initial desires. The M80 might be too much for me... I don't plan on blowing the roof off my house. I am solely after the best sound quality and something that I will be happy to build upon rather than replace.

@mojo: It would be a crying shame to blow a new Onkyo because it couldn't push the M80's. If I'm playing at moderate levels anyway, would the M60 serve me well? I've heard it has comparible mids to the M80's and possibly a more accurate treble. Thoughts?

@kcarlile: what would You do? I feel there's 2 sides to this argument, both with very valid arguments. Thoughts?

Thanks guys!

What did I do? I bought an H/K 525 first. Then I bought M50s, based (somewhat) on higher WAF on those than M22s, and the fact I wanted towers. Then I bought QS4s. Then my wife bought a VP100. Then I upgraded to M80s, because, hey, why not? My room is ~ 19x20 or so, and it's just a living room. I would have been utterly happy with M22s and an EP500, it just didn't work out that way. I still haven't replaced my old Cambridge Soundworks Powered Subwoofer 1.

Quote:

It would be a crying shame to blow a new Onkyo because it couldn't push the M80's. If I'm playing at moderate levels anyway, would the M60 serve me well? I've heard it has comparible mids to the M80's and possibly a more accurate treble.

You won't "blow" the Onkyo. It will self-limit and return to normal operation after it cools down.

The M80s are almost twice as efficient as the M60s. This means that you need almost half the power to achieve the same sound pressure level. I can't comment on how the 60s sound compared to the 80s but maybe Randy can.

Quote:

Then I bought M50s...Then I upgraded to M80s, because, hey, why not? ...I would have been utterly happy with M22s and an EP500...

You mean there was no audible difference between M22s and M80s? Or do you mean that in audio, what you don't know won't hurt you

The second, thanks. Hmm. I actually haven't heard M22s and an EP500 together, so I'm not really sure...

That's a pretty big room, overall. I'd really hesitate to recommend M22's.

I'm a very satisfied M60 owner. But then, I've not heard M80's, so ignorance is bliss. M60's are easier to drive, cheaper and still play wicked loud. But, of course, if you can swing the M80's financially, by all means do it. I'd agree that their ability to play lower/louder could give you a more satisfying HT experience until you can get a sub.

While I really like everything else about it - especially the Audyssey system - my concern with the Onkyo is that it does not have pre-outs. So, if you find that you do need more power for the M80's, you won't be able to simply add an amp.

Our forum HDMI expert mdrew has been auditioning a Yamaha RX-V661 to good effect. I believe he HAS been driving M80's with it and it does include 7.1 pre-outs. It might be just a little more expensive, and it has the Yamaha proprietary YPAO, which is not as universally embraced as the Audyssey system. YMMV.

Everybody seems to like everything about Denons except the remotes. Regardless of your receiver choice, you might want to budget some money for a universal remote control (like the still-righteous MX-700 at www.surfremote.com). That was - by far - the best investment I made relative to my beautiful wife's acceptance of the Home Theatre.

I'm certainly not going to say anything bad about the Mits projector. It gets great reviews, and I think your throw distance fits it well. Have you researched this at www.projectorcentral.com?

I'll echo comments made earlier about the acquisition progression.

1. Get "permanent" mains first
2. Use the Newtons (or the Pioneers, whatever sounds better to you) as surrounds initially, then get QS8's later.
3. I'm not optimistic that you'll prefer using a mismatched center over a "phantom" center, but it won't hurt to give it a shot.
4. I agree that getting a sub before a center will probably make sense.
5. Look into Hsu and SVS subs. The EP500 is a GREAT sub. For your room, I'd not consider the EP350.
6. Don't overlook the possibility of using a vertical center channel (like a single M22) or even a pair of M2's (one above and one below the screen) rather than a VP100 or VP150. It depends upon what "look" you like, what your amp can handle and what form factor fits your space.

I'm not sure I understand the placement of your surrounds. Will they be on the side walls or behind the primary viewing position? You certainly would NOT want them in front of the viewing position if they are hung on the beam and facing the screen. I probably just don't get it.

Enjoy the journey!

VTF 2.3

@Rick: thanks for the link and advice. That sub looks great.

It's nice to hear that the one thing most everyone agrees on is the acquistion progression. It helps me phase this out so that I can enjoy each step, which is very important to not only me, but towards WAF.

I'm going to read-up on the Yammy 661. I have no preference on which receiver to go with, I just want to avoid (the inevitable) upgrade itch as long as I can with that purchase. The Onkyo was merely an AVSForum recommendation that I stumbled upon, but that 661 looks very nice.

@Tomtuttle: Regarding my surrounds: basically, if you were sitting on my couch and looked straight up and back 1 foot, you'd see the projector. To the left and right of the projector, approx 4 feet out from the projector, is where you'd find the left and right surrounds. So, they're mounted on the ceiling beam, approx 7' off the ground, 4' to the left and right of you. Hope that helps a bit. I may have not mentioned, but the 7.1 side-surrounds are pre-drilled too. The guy that owned this house prior to me really did his homework.

It seems like the consensus is to get mains first. I suppose the question running thru my brain regarding which mains to get is this:

Should I spend the $1200 or so on M80's or should I spend $900 on M60's and put the remaining $300 towards the purchase of the VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer, or the like?

It seems like everyone universally feels that a sub should come before a center. So, the question for me is whether the M80's alone would suffice until sometime next year, or would the M60/VTF-2 MK3 combo trump it for a little more cabbage?

I plan to give my existing surrounds a whirl alongside whichever of the 2 above options I decide to go with. I may also poke around with the Pioneer center I have and if not, I could go phantom like some of you suggested. So, it looks like a 5.1 vs. 5.0 question. (do you still call it 5.1 with a phantom center?) Weird, eh?

Any other thoughts on this? Thanks again for all the feedback.

You still need a sub with the M80s. Even if you are going to listen to just music (unless you listen to only flutes

).

You don't have to use a centre for 5.1. If you do use a centre however, it anchors the dialogue and it sounds like it's coming from the centre over a wide listening area. You lose this benefit with a phantom centre. Dialogue and bass sound very different with a phantom compared to a dedicated centre speaker. But the centre does have a major drawback. Many listeners don't know how to calibrate it properly and they end up making it too loud thereby negating some interesting effects that the sound engineer built into the track. You can't make this mistake with a phantom. People also make the same mistake on surrounds but that's not nearly so disastrous (at least that's what my ears tell me).

I am starting to really enjoy listening to CDs in Neo and PLIIx. For some recordings I enable the centre and for others I disable it for a phantom presentation. For movies, I always enable the centre.

You'll have a lot of fun playing with your system I'm sure to establish what's optimum for your environment and ears.

Quote:

It seems like everyone universally feels that a sub should come before a center. So, the question for me is whether the M80's alone would suffice until sometime next year, or would the M60/VTF-2 MK3 combo trump it for a little more cabbage?

If this is mostly for home theater and you like action/adventure type movies and want a movie theater “feel” right now then I would go with the M60/sub combo. If you don’t have a subwoofer right now I think this will give you the best bang for your buck. And as Mojo said even with the M80s you still want to use a subwoofer.

Funky, welcome. The Onkyo 605 should be an excellent choice for the setup that you're considering, regardless of whether you go with the M22s plus sub or the towers. The center speaker can certainly be the one to postpone, either using a "phantom" center or experimenting with one of your present speakers.

As to the location of the surrounds, if you're not going to use both side and back surrounds(7.1)they're still side surrounds even if they'll be a foot or so behind you. They should be separated a little more than the present 8' wiring locations, so extend the wiring maybe 3-4' wider to each side.

@tomtuttle - yeah, I forgot to mention I have a Harmony Remote...makes life much easier.

@mojo - those are some good thoughts on the center speaker. Once I get this setup, I'm going to really need to figure out how to calibrate it. I use the DVE discs to calibrate picture quality on my TV, is there something out there for the audio side of things that helps calibrate your speaker settings?

@JohnK - good advice on the surrounds. I just measured it, and it looks like I could get another 2'6" each way. I'd have to drill new holes through the beam and patch and paint the existing holes. Worth it?

@Grunt - I think the M60/Sub combo is making the most sense to me as well. Thanks for the vote of confidence!

By the way, not sure if I mentioned it previously, but this setup will be 75% dedicated to Movies and Nintendo and 25% dedicated to music listening. I'm a film junkie and watch every type of movie 'cept Horror (I'm a scaredy cat). So that is my primary interest. The kids will likely spend quite a few hours playing the Nintendo Wii on the system too. And the system will play music when we're hanging around playing pool and stuff like that.

Quote:

I use the DVE discs to calibrate picture quality on my TV, is there something out there for the audio side of things that helps calibrate your speaker settings?

The DVE disc has an audio section that will do the job quite nicely. There should be test tones on your receiver which will work also. If you do not have one already, you'll need a sound pressure level (SPL) meter from Radio Shack.

AN INTRODUCTION TO TEST & CALIBRATION DVDS aka "Why the hell do I need one of these things?" (To learn about DVE and AVIA, scroll down far enough to read "THE DIFFERENT DISCS AND THEIR ATTRIBUTES")

Essential Accessories: The Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter

A Quick Overview of Home Theater Calibration

Calibrating Your Home Theater System

How To Set Up a Subwoofer (or Subwoofers) for Home Theater

Subwoofer Setup Guide by Bossobass

Common Subwoofer Set-Up Errors by Edward J M

Quote:

The DVE disc has an audio section that will do the job quite nicely.

You know, I was just getting ready to pull out my DVE disc because after I posted that, I thought that it did have audio setups.

Thanks for those great links tho!

You're very welcome. Hope they'll be of some assistance.

You've received a ton of great advice already so I'll try leave the technical out of it and come at it from another angle.

For a total FUN perspective. I think you would have more initial wow factor if you go with the best fronts you can afford with an equally impressive sub to start.

If the M80s would mean waiting for the sub or start robbing the speaker fund because you need a bigger receiver, I think the M60s would safely keep you immune from 'upgraditis' for a long time in a room of that size. I'm an admitted newb but I'm still overwhelmed by mine.

Anyway, I'm digressing. My point point was that from the "Fun Factor" point of view, well chosen fronts and really impressive sub will really pump up the initial fun factor more than any other upgrade.

A center for dialog clarity is nice but I could wait.
Surrounds are very cool but not all movies truly utilize them as well as they could and finally for music, stereo and a sub is still pretty sweet and often preferred by some.

You can get some OK surround effects from whatever you have left over for speakers, but great fronts and a good sub are really what make your visitor's mouths drop.

My humble opinion, of course. Just another angle from a different perspective.

Great advice, Murph.

I would agree with Murph and Mojo; there's nothing more impressive than a good LFE session. Personally, I'd try to stretch the budget a little and get the M60's and a VTF-3.

I'm still confused about the surround placement, though.

I understand the ones on the beam are behind you, which is good. I'm not sure moving them farther apart is going to make a huge difference, and you won't know for sure until you acquire the QS8's anyway. But then you mentioned that the "side surrounds for 7.1" are also wired. Typically, a 5.1 setup uses "side" speakers either just in front of or just behind the listener, and a 7.1 system adds "rear" speakers behind the listener. So, before you go relocating the speakers on the beam, can you draw me a map or take a picture or something so I can better understand the layout of the room, particularly where ALL the speaker wiring is located? I'm a visual learner

In other words, maybe you want to use the wiring for what you thought were the 6/7 channels as the 4/5 channels depending upon where they are located.

I'm sure the Onkyo will be fine. My experience was that, when I bought my low-end Denon several years ago, I thought I'd "never need or want more power" but now I'm getting itchy in that regard and my upgrade path is more expensive because I'd need to acquire both an amp AND a new processor.

@Murph - that is very sound advice, because if we're not having fun, then what the heck are we doing?! I really appreciate your perspective and agree 100%.

The more I look at it, the more I think the M60's and a great sub would be a good start, as opposed to getting the M80's alone for now.

@Tomtuttle - I probably couldn't afford the VTF-3 right now. What about the VTF-2 MK3 / M60 combo? More in my price range.

Here's a schematic on my theatre area.

If it doesn't come up, click here: (http://shire.smugmug.com/gallery/3246319#179718587-O-LB)

Hope this helps you get a better idea of my situation.

Also, as I'm looking at bang-for-buck vs. long-term satisfaction, I keep bouncing back-n-forth between this discussion, and getting a complete xSeries 5.1 set up for the price of 2 M60's and a sub here. Since I haven't heard ANY of these speakers yet, AV123 or Axiom, and I can't really test them out, could somebody tell my just how much better is the setup we're discussing here in comparison to getting:

X-MTM (pair)
X-LS (pair)
X-CS
and a HSU sub
link: http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=55

...all for about $1400.

Because, for the M60's and the HSU VTF-2 MK3 Sub, I'm looking at about $1400 as well, but without the surrounds and center.

I'm pretty sure even my noobie mind is right in thinking the Axiom M60 is better than the xSeries MTM's, but I'm wondering is a night and day type of difference? Or is it a minimal difference?

Thanks for putting up with my indecisiveness and possibly, my total ignorance here.

Whoa. That is one heckuva nice diagram. Hope you didn't just tool that up for this little conversation. That's got to be a fantastic room!

On the AV123 v. Axiom question, there are a few things I'd like to assert.

1. It's not an apples v. apples comparison. The x-mtm is more comparable to the M50 than to the M60 in size and driver complement. The M50's could also be an excellent choice for you.
2. Nobody has heard the x-mtm yet. It's not available. So, there's no way for ANYBODY to "know" how YOU might think it compares to the M60. I would say that - in most things in life - you get what you pay for. With both Axiom and AV123, most customers feel that they got good value (i.e. a bit MORE than they paid for). So, it's going to come down to your personal preference and your assessment of value. Arrange auditions if you can.
3. For HT use, the Axiom QS surrounds are - I believe - far superior in design and performance to just about any small, directional bookshelf speaker.
4. Shipping is free at Axiom. It is NOT free at AV123.

Regarding the sub - you might want to consult the folks at Hsu. You could always start with a VTF-2 and then add a second one if you find that you need "more".

Regarding speaker placement, thanks for the diagram. (barrage of disclaimers follows). There are still unknowns. Personal tastes vary. The room is important. You don't know until you try. Only your opinion matters. There are several different approaches that you might find satisfying. A rolling stone gathers no moss. Kilroy was here. Wait...

As I understand your room, I'm not sure that ANY of the specified "surround" locations are really optimal.

You're pretty much locked in (and nicely so) on the display and seating.

Do I understand correctly that the bar is basically all at/below bar height? That is, there are no "upper cabinets" or walls hanging over the "bar" section that juts into the room, right?

First off, I think this room SCREAMS for 7.1 (eventually). I would absolutely plan for a pair of REAR QS speakers (or even maybe M2's) on the long wall parallel with the pool table. That implementation is going to make your 25% music time go from blah to great. It's also going to fill out the HT experience significantly since it is such a big room.

As to the surrounds, that's a tough one.

I think positions 1 and 2 are too far forward to do you any good. I think positions 3 and 4 being right on top of the listening position could be problematic, too.

The QS surrounds are pretty forgiving in placement, and given your room, are an especially good choice.

It's not absolutely essential that the surrounds are symmetrically placed relative to the listening position. Your receiver will have settings for you to calibrate the distance and volume. Symmetry is good, but I don't see how you can make it work. The low ceiling height is going to make it problematic if not impossible for you to ceiling mount the speakers; I think having the QS8's wall mounted will be a much more elegant approach.

You could put the surrounds on the back wall (spaced wider than the "rear" speakers).

I would try the right surround on the wall to the left of the opening to the office over by the bar.

The left surround is more problematic. At the end of the wall with the cubby door might work, but it might have to be a bit low because of the beam. Or, you could try either side of the door on the wall where the stairwell comes down, but the wall with the cubby door is going to get in the way.

The existing wired speaker locations would work really well if your viewing distance was 6' instead of 12'.

Quote:

AV123 v. Axiom question

I think you nailed it on the head. "You get what you pay for".

Quote:

Do I understand correctly that the bar is basically all at/below bar height? That is, there are no "upper cabinets" or walls hanging over the "bar" section that juts into the room, right?

-- Yes. Correctomundo.

I could move the seat forward closer to the screen but I'm not too thrilled on the prospect of getting dizzy by sitting so close to the screen.

I echo your idea with putting a surround on the bar on the wall near the office, as well as putting the back surrounds near the pool table. It would actually look quite nice and I could run the cable (I think) with relative ease. The problem child, indeed, is the left surround. As you noted, the cubby hole wall is rather close to the seating area, and if I put it on the wall to the left of the pool table (near the door there), it might get lost...maybe not though... the beam won't be blocking sound too bad, it's more a distance issue.

I love it when my house SCREAMS 7.1. That's what I'm talkin' about!

I realize the potential is huge for this room and that why I toiled over that diagram (not a big deal.. I'm a computer geek).

Long story short, it's the speakers, and a limited budget to start with. I'm now eyeing the Yamaha V659 as per your recommendation. The price is right and it might, just might squeeze out enough *umph* for the M80's which I know Mojo has championed a few times in this thread.

And I appreciate your words on AV123 vs. Axiom. I'm strongly leaning towards Axiom (it's why I'm posting here, not there), but I wanted to get some honest feedback on it all.

My rookie plan:

Yamaha V659 (Now), Mits HD1000u (Now),
M60's (Now), VTF-3 (Now), QS8's (later), v150 (later), M22's/QS8's (later) for the 7.1 setup.

I'll see how my current surrounds stack up with that setup until I can afford the rest.

Thanks for *Volunteering* the feedback Tom (get it?) Anyone else have some ideas on that diagram?

Sincerely,

Kilroy

Yeah, I get it

Thanks.

Really, I don't know enough about the Yamaha receiver line. I know mdrew has the 661, but I don't know squat about the 659. Do your due diligence with multiple authoritative sources.

I wouldn't move the seating closer.

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Yamaha V659 (Now), Mits HD1000u (Now),
M60's (Now), VTF-3 (Now)

Great plan. Your budget's busted, huh?

Welcome aboard.

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2. Nobody has heard the x-mtm yet. It's not available.

I've heard the x-mtms

at an av123 get together at the end of June, along with several other av123 offerings.

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So, there's no way for ANYBODY to "know" how YOU might think it compares to the M60

And there in lies the rub. Even though I've heard both speakers in question (mtms and M60s) there is no way I could predict how you would perceive the sound of either, or which you would prefer. Nobody could.

I'm going to make a rather controversial statement (be nice, now

). I think a great many of the speakers available today, both internet and B&M brands, are pretty darn good speakers, and the differences between them are minimal. Perhaps, to younger, more educated ears those differences are "night and day," and we all very well might have preferences. But, I believe that the great majority of us laymen would be content with many of the respected brands and models available.

The last time I heard M60s was in January and, having heard the mtms a month ago, there is no way I could reasonably compare the two. However, I can tell you that both speakers sounded good to me. I didn't find the MTMs particularly attractive (big, boxy, and bulky). Also, they were "mules" in an unattractive flat black finish. The finished product will, I suspect, be more attractive. And, though they sounded good, I actually preferred the x-sls and, particularly, the x-statiks. YMMV

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3. For HT use, the Axiom QS surrounds are - I believe - far superior in design and performance to just about any small, directional bookshelf speaker.

I'm in complete agreement with this. The QS8s are the best surrounds I've ever heard. I prefer them to the dipolar Rocket RSS300 surrounds, though the 300s do a good job.

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4. Shipping is free at Axiom. It is NOT free at AV123.

Well, the cost of shipping is included in the stated price of the Axioms, and it's not at av123.

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Regarding the sub - you might want to consult the folks at Hsu. You could always start with a VTF-2 and then add a second one if you find that you need "more".

HSU, SVS, Axiom, and ACI, among others, all make excellent subs (I'd include av123, but their really interesting, Mark Seaton designed subs aren't available yet). But again, no one can predict what you would prefer. IMHO, as long as you stick to a respected brand, the only way you can go wrong is if you choose a sub that is too small for the size of your room and you end up overdriving it.

Meant to say 661...yeah... budget's destroyed.

Hi Ajax,

Thanks for the info. Hey, could you tell me what set up you have?

Bottom line: I want what you guy's have. If I have to piece-meal it or work up to it through "upgradeinitis", so be it. But I know this: You, Tom, Rick, Mojo and the rest of the gang that have responded, are very informed on the industry, and for me personally, it says a lot about Axiom, that you're posting here, and paying attention to one of a thousand Noobie threads about which HT system to buy, means that you're not only knowledgeable about speakers, but are passionate about it too.

I'd like to look back and say, "Remember when I was buying my first system with you guys?!" I'm a forum kinda of guy, and it means a lot to see your devotion to Axiom.

...So...anyway, get the M60's and HSU sub to start? Build on that with QS8's, V150's, etc., Stick with Axiom and build a sweet system that thousands know to be good? Or go with another brand, save a buck or three, be in ingnorant bliss?

Regarding the HSU sub...I'm looking at it based on recommendation only... the EP500 looks mighty nice to me, but spendy. I'd like to stick to 1 brand, I think conceptually, there's a synergy there because the engineers are like-minded with a single brand, but sub-wise, I don't know if it matters...

Anyhoo, thanks for all the advice guys...remember, I'm Christmas shopping and have some time left until the funds are ready.

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I've heard the x-mtms at an av123 get together at the end of June

Well, I stand corrected

I guess I meant "nobody credible"

You know I'm kidding, Jack. They're not even taking orders for the x-statik, are they?

And I agree with you about the quality of speakers, to a point. MY PERCEPTION is that the differences become much more pronounced in larger rooms and at higher volumes. Since Funkfuzz has ~4,000 cubic feet to fill, I don't think that even a high quality SMALLER speaker is going to be as effective as a bigger box. I guess what I'm trying to say is, all other things being equal, size matters.

Funk (may I call you "Funk"?

), if you'll click on my screen name, you'll find my equipment listed in my profile.

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Well, I stand corrected I guess I meant "nobody credible" You know I'm kidding, Jack.

LOL! Actually, you were right in the first place.

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They're not even taking orders for the x-statik, are they?

Certainly not officially. They operate in a very informal manner. I'd be surprised if there isn't a list of those who want them and have called and asked to be put on that list. Don't know for certain though.

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And I agree with you about the quality of speakers, to a point. MY PERCEPTION is that the differences become much more pronounced in larger rooms and at higher volumes. Since Funkfuzz has ~4,000 cubic feet to fill, I don't think that even a high quality SMALLER speaker is going to be as effective as a bigger box. I guess what I'm trying to say is, all other things being equal, size matters.

No argument whatsoever.

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Regarding the HSU sub...I'm looking at it based on recommendation only... the EP500 looks mighty nice to me, but spendy.

Funk, the 500 justifies it's "spendy" qualities by having the DSP technology which renders it pretty close to bulletproof and provides a reasonably linear frequency response, not counting room interaction. (Of course, being a happy EP500 owner, I'm just a tad biased

). However, there is no denying that the HSUs provide a heck of a bang for the buck.

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Regarding the HSU sub...I'm looking at it based on recommendation only... the EP500 looks mighty nice to me, but spendy. I'd like to stick to 1 brand, I think conceptually, there's a synergy there because the engineers are like-minded with a single brand, but sub-wise, I don't know if it matters...

There is no real need to stay within one single brand when it come to a sub. The Hsu VTF 3 is on par (from what I have read) with the EP 500.

@Ajax -

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Funk (may I call you "Funk"? ), if you'll click on my screen name, you'll find my equipment listed in my profile.
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You can call me Funk, because the Funk liveth within me...

aahhh... anyway...yeah, so, I checked your specs and you're a Rocketman Elton style. What should I gather from that?! Should I be eying Rockets instead of M60 and M80's?

I just want a killer setup, it's really that simple, except I have to step thru the purchase process, can't get it all at once. I think I'm on the right track with the M60/sub combo. Am I?

Seriously?

Just buy the M60/EP500 combo and be done with it!!! (I love spending other peoples money!!) In all seriousness, that way you'll have all the same finish on all your speakers and you will have one KILLER setup. from what I have seen, the only sub that HSU carries that compares to the EP500 is the VTF-HO...and with shipping, it comes to about $100 less than the EP500...is $100 all that much of a difference? I don't think so, its worth it for the DSP technology and having the same finish IMHO.

If you order these 3 items thru the factory outlet, make sure to add 2 more items (some small cheap couplers or something) to get your 5% off for ordering 5 items.

Never give up the funk.

If you're near Concord, you might be able to get a listen from MarkSJohnson.

Funk-
One more point re: subs is that some also prefer to stay within one brand because the finishes match. I know that in my case, that was a reasonably important factor as I didn't want a mismatched or "black box" sub....

Past that, everyone else is right about everything else all the time. Just ask my wife!

Hey Funk-
Yes, I hadn't noticed that you're pretty local. PM me if you'd like!

If one were to look on AVS at Craigsubs list of subs both the VTF 3HO and the VTF 3 come in ahead of the EP 500.

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Ajax - so, I checked your specs and you're a Rocketman Elton style. What should I gather from that?!

All you should gather from that is that both Axiom and av123, and their respective forums, are populated by terrific people; that both companies make terrific products; and that both provide incredible customer service. Beyond that, it's all subjective, and YMMV.

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If one were to look on AVS at Craigsubs list of subs both the VTF 3HO and the VTF 3 come in ahead of the EP 500.

This is true, according to Jakeman, the EP500 comes before the VTF-3.3...this just goes to show that everyone has different preferences.

@Hutzal - I love your enthusiasm. It's contagious. So, that'd be a pretty kick arse setup to start with, eh?

@Mark - Yeah, I think there is something to be said about having a universal finish/look/feel to your system. So you're in Concord, huh? My wife was down there today! Crazy. I won't be buying until later in Fall, so maybe before then we could connect.

@Ajax - What better compliment could be said about Axiom than that!?

So, M60's & EP500 to get started?

Budget? We don't need no stinkin' budget.

All good advice.
I won't add a thing.

Except that.

Go M60s!!

Funk, you've had great advice from everyone so far. I'd just like to reaffirm the notion of buying the best you can right now and adding more down the road. Good front speakers and a sub will do wonders for you. For the money, Hsu makes excellent subs--for both music and movies. I'll admit I'm a bit biased because I own a VTF3 MkII. I still would like to listen to an Axiom sub--I am sure they are awesome.

I skimped on my first set-up and bought an HTIB. I ended up replacing all of it piece by piece. I would have saved a good chunk of change had I bought what I really wanted over time rather than waste it on the so-so HTIB.

Funk, everyone here is steering you down a road I agree with.. you get that M60 / EP500 combo, and Tower of Power will never sound funkier!!

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Funk, everyone here is steering you down a road I agree with.. you get that M60 / EP500 combo, and Tower of Power will never sound funkier!!

The funk shall reign. The ears shall ring.

Sounds like the M60/Sub combo is a great start and the next year will be a lot of fun adding to it, seeing the setup only get better. Not sure what Sub I'll go for, but it sounds like I can't go wrong with either the EP500 or the HSU VTF3.

Guess I need to start coffee cannin' some coin until Christmas. I sure don't need no stinkin' budget...

Awesome advice from everyone. Thanks again to each of you!