Using phantom center with M80s - Axiom Message Boards

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Listening to more music lately, even 5.1 dolby and dts convinced me that the vp150 just doesn’t have a chance against the M80s. So I find that 2ch direct/stereo sounds better than 5.1 with my setup. Since I watch most movies and play video games sitting in the sweet spot I thought what would it sound like with movies?

I switched to using a phantom center and at first thought that it’s just not right. But with a little more volume and more toe-in of the M80s everything came alive in a way I’d never heard before.

Here are some of the things I noticed so far:

1. The front soundstage seemed to expand in both width and depth.
2. The side soundstages seemed to expand out.
3. The 360 degree soundstage became even more seamless (something I didn’t think could happen based on what I’ve been listening to.)
4. Subtle sounds from the front became more noticeable. (I think this contributed to #3 as the ambient sounds from the front were more distinguishable.
5. Voices were lower requiring a little more volume which did not, however, cause them to be drowned out.
6. Voices seemed more natural and so far seem to sound better when panning.

I have not watched much off-axis so I’m not sure yet how viable this is for several viewers.

I could use some suggestions on music/movies/scenes with good side to side panning especially of voices, anything with good 360 degree pans and/or lots of ambient sounds.

So far I’ve watched all or parts of
Starwars I and III
Master and Commander
Appleseed
Kaena (opening scene) Wow!
The Fifth Element.
Fellowship of the Ring

Dean

That's interesting. I had the exact opposite experience with movies and a phantom centre even though I have my 80s toed in. I do quite enjoy the phantom for PLII music though.

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I had the exact opposite experience with movies and a phantom centre even though I have my 80s toed in.

Your room is much more spacious than mine. My mains are only 5.5 feet apart so the front soundstage is solid even without a center holding it together. I sit so close to the screen it’s hard not to notice that the center is above the TV. I thought about trying dual centers above and below but instead I’m trying dual centers on each side first.

Based on what I’m hearing right now I’m pretty sure when I upgrade to a projector and screen I’m going to try an M80 center with an acoustically transparent screen. I didn’t realize how much audio information was coming through the center channel until I started playing around with this. It seems a shame not to play all that through the best speakers in my system.

I must admit that at first it did sound strange without the center playing. But the more I listen to this the more natural it sounds. Sort of like when I realized I had my surrounds turned up to loud. The wow factor seemed cool but I realized it was actually distracting.

Similarly the center was so focusing it was also drawing my attention away from the rest of the system. I guess I didn’t notice it because the extra sound sort of blended with the screen action. Listening more to music Is showing me that I was trading soundstage quality for intensity in movies. That intensity had a wow factor but I think it made for lazy listening.

My situation may not apply to many others in that my room is fairly small and symmetrical, and except for my phosphorescent Irish skin totally blacked out. I don’t need anything anchoring me to the screen because it’s literally in my face.

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I could use some suggestions on music/movies/scenes with good side to side panning especially of voices, anything with good 360 degree pans and/or lots of ambient sounds.

Mission to Mars has a really good scene...here's a previous post for more info of the scene. Post

Thanks for the suggestion HAY. That’s looks like exactly what I wanted. I even remember having read that post and then forgot about it.

Dean

I prefer the sound of the dialogue with my stereo setup when watching movies vs the 7.1 theater. But in the theater a center is necessary since not everyone can be in the sweet spot.

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I prefer the sound of the dialogue with my stereo setup when watching movies vs the 7.1 theater. But in the theater a center is necessary since not everyone can be in the sweet spot.

I admit that a center is necessary for multiple seats and the VP150 does lend more of an overall movie theater flavor to the sound. I’m just discovering how much I like the “precision” (don’t know if that’s the right word) of the soundstage up front running just M80s I just wish I could use an M80 as a center which isn’t an option with my rear projection DLP.

Hey I may have just come up with another need (excuse) to upgrade to a projector.

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I must admit that at first it did sound strange without the center playing. But the more I listen to this the more natural it sounds. Sort of like when I realized I had my surrounds turned up to loud. The wow factor seemed cool but I realized it was actually distracting.

Similarly the center was so focusing it was also drawing my attention away from the rest of the system. I guess I didn’t notice it because the extra sound sort of blended with the screen action. Listening more to music Is showing me that I was trading soundstage quality for intensity in movies. That intensity had a wow factor but I think it made for lazy listening.

Other than having a balanced, sound level matched system so that surrounds are not distracting, you can also play around with your receiver settings when it comes to upfront soundstage with a centre channel.
My Onkyo 797 has panorama/dimension settings that allow me to expand or contract the centre channel information, drawing the dialogue inward or expanding it left and right.
I've found that the default setting of 3 works fine for my tastes but i can see how sometimes one might hear the dialogue being collapsed in the centre.
If your receiver has similar settings, give that a try before writing off a centre channel entirely.
Certainly the small distance you have between the M80s will also affect how a centre channel can play effectively between them given the varying heights in tweeters and the obvious difference in orientation across the front three speakers.

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My Onkyo 797 has panorama/dimension settings that allow me to expand or contract the centre channel information, drawing the dialogue inward or expanding it left and right.
I've found that the default setting of 3 works fine for my tastes but i can see how sometimes one might hear the dialogue being collapsed in the centre.

Thanks for the info about the center channel settings. My Denon also has panorama, dimension and center width modes under the PLIIx. I missed that in the manual because it was under the “music” rather than “cinema” parameter and thought it said it only worked for 2ch audio but it appears it also works with other sources. I also missed that there was a cinema EQ setting to lower the treble. I’ll have to try these out.

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Certainly the small distance you have between the M80s will also affect how a centre channel can play effectively between them given the varying heights in tweeters and the obvious difference in orientation across the front three speakers.

Unfortunately until I move I have to work within this relatively small space. I did try raising the M80s a little so the tweeters across the front were more alighted. However for most movies this created a worse situation as the entire soundstage moved up above the screen. At least with the M80s sitting on the floor they help to pull the overall soundstage down closer to the center of the screen.

I want to reiterate to anyone reading this that I am in no way criticizing the VP150. I am comparing it directly against my M80s which is just downright unfair even before my limited placement options further compromises how they are allowed to bend together. Despite my growing preference for the way the phantom center blends when watching alone I can’t imagine not using the VP150 when showing off my system as it really does create more of a movie theater feel.

Dean, I believe that your original thought about the Center Width, Panorama and Dimension adjustments is correct. They only apply to adjusting the amounts of 2-channel material extracted and sent to your center or surround speakers in your 5.1 setup. 5.1 material such as DD or DTS tracks on DVDs already have discrete center and side surround channels and there's no need to extract sound from the mains to fill them.

As far as applying them when using 2-channel music sources(I always use DPLII(x) on all 2-channel music sources), I leave the Center Width setting at the default middle if using a center speaker(rather than the phantom I usually apply), adjust Dimension just slightly to send more ambience material to the surrounds, but usually leave it at the default middle and always leave Panorama at the default off, since sending direct sound rather than ambience from the mains to the surrounds is an unattractive "all channel stereo" effect that I don't care for.

When I tried using the phantom center on my old HK receiver it sounded pretty bad. The dialogue was not as clear or as loud as with the VP-150, and the volume levels had to be compensated. With the way they master the sound in some movies I cant hardly hear what they are saying sometimes, and other parts of the same movie are way too loud.

I agree with you, Big. I use the phantom centre for PLII/Neo modes only.

I’ve watched more movies using the phantom center and can clearly tell that it depends on how the center channel was recorded whether it sounds better or worse to me. Movies like Star Wars 3, and the LOTR movies sound better to me. Star Wars 1 and most others sound worse because the dialog is way too low even with the volume turned up.

On the movies that sound better to me I do have to turn up the volume but not so loud as to be distracting.

For some movies and some games Elder Scrolls: Oblivion for example the phantom center definitely sounds better to me but for most movies it sounds worse. The main thing I’ve learned from this is so far is that I don’t want to get rid of my center speaker I just want it to be another M80.