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Posted By: JohnGalt Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 01:01 AM
On the off chance that one or two of you might be interested here're a few very brief thoughts on the new gear that recently replaced my aging system.

The setup: A Sony PS3 feeding a Pioneer PDP5010 via a Yamaha RX-V3800 with Axiom M80s (front L&R), QS8s (L&R surrounds), and VP 150 (center). The M80s are about 10' apart and about 8' from the listening position, the 150 is about 6' in front of the listening position, and the QS8s are approximately 4' above ear level, a foot or so down from the ceiling and right at 20 degrees behind the listening position. The M80s are set to 0dB, the VP150 to 0dB, and the QS8s to +3dB. The EQs on the M80s are flat for 2-channel music and +3dB (Q=3) at 30Hz for movies; the QS8s EQs are flat; I'm still working on the EQ for the VP 150.


Axiom M80s:

Wow. Far and away the best speakers I've owned though that in and of itself isn't saying much. Initially it was a bit difficult to accurately guage the volume level as I'm used to hearing at least a bit of distortion, harshness or breakup at very high volume levels and the M80s simply didn't deliver any of those cues, they just kept delivering more clean volume. The clarity of the sound and the space they deliver in the mix is just outstanding.

The harshness I thought I heard initially was a source problem. I'd picked up the Perception box set by The Doors thinking that it'd be fun to have new mixes (including 5.1 Dolby and DVDA surround) of some of my favorites. On some songs there was just a hint of harshness for a split second here and there but comparing these mixes to the remixes from the Original Studio Recordings box and the original CD releases showed the same problem in the same spot on each version so I'm satisfied that it's probably present on the master. It's that sound you get if you pull the percussion levels up in a mix to the point that they just jump past the rails, the tiny little spots of breakup/harshness you hear when momentarily driving the sound past the limits of the equipment. On one hand I'm a bit bummed to hear this in some of my favorite music but on the other I've heard some of these songs hundreds of times on dozens of systems and have never heard even a hint of it before which speaks volumes to the accuracy of the M80s reproduction.

Every movie I've played sounds great through the M80s and two channel music can be stunning where the mix has some inherent space and separation. Everything from Warren Zevon, to the Crystal Method, to Bon Scott's AC/DC, to Willie Dixon was absolutely fantastic. The audiophiles in the crowd will scoff but to someone who's played some of those songs with a Filtertron-equippped axe plugged straight into a JCM 800 it's really quite amazing to hear a stereo speaker reproduce the dynamics of a Marshall in one's living room. A lot of old recordings whose music I've always liked and whose sound I've not really came to life; things like Humble Pie, Nazarath, and the like came to life in ways I'd not heard before. On the flip side a few recordings with poor production didn't fare too well. For example, Uncle Kracker's "Heaven" might well feature the worst production values in the entire history of westerns civilization ... but it doesn't sound too bad on an iPod. ;\)


Axiom QS8s:

Surprisingly well matched with the M80s when reproducing movie soundtracks. They're typically very unobtrusive and create a surround field that's diffuse enough that you'll rarely be able to pick out the speaker location. Very seamless on effects that travel to or from the front speakers.

I don't care for the QS8s for 2-channel music processed for surround though. Neither the Neural THX, PLIII Music, nor any other setting I tried sounded particularly good. Pulling the volume down helped as did setting up a "loudness" type of EQ curve but by the time you've fit them into your mix they're really pretty much buried and using them is a bit pointless. Mated with smaller fronts they might sound better to my ears but asking the QS8s to keep pace with the M80s for full range constant use is asking a bit much of them. That said I'm thrilled with the QS8s for the purpose I purchased them for and I doubt they could be significantly improved on for that use.


VP 150:

The jury is still out on the VP 150. At moderately high volume levels (-15dB and up on the Yamaha whose volume ranges from -80dB to +16.5dB) there's a very unpleasant resonance that occurs with some voices. I tried several locations: on the floor against the television stand, on the stand in front of the television, on a shelf below the television that's open on four sides, and a foot or so in front of the stand on the floor. The resonance seems to be position independent so I moved on to the EQ and created a notch filter (Q=10, -20dB) and moved it up and down the spectrum with some but not satisfactory results. It seemed that the resonance was happening between 150 and 250 Hz but unfortunately I'm limited to setting the filter's center frequency to preset frequencies so I couldn't be as precise in my experimentation as I'd have liked. Flattening the filter out a bit to Q=3 and pulling the cut level up to -6dB at a center frequency of 180 Hz took a significant bite out of the resonance but I still hear that particular tonal character. Some movies / mixes / voices don't have much of an issue at all, others (e.g., Peter Fonda and Sam Elliot in Ghost Rider; Ian McDiarmid near the end of The Phantom Menace) are a bit grating. The sound is very clear and doesn't sound strained at all, it's more like the soundtrack hitting the resonant frequency of the cabinet or an overtone thereof. I think with a bit more tweaking and listening the VP 150 will sound fine but it seems a bit odd that there's be a tonal issue after the M80s and QS8s sounded fine with totally flat EQs.


Yamaha RX-V3800:

Of interest to Axiom owners will be the fact that it will drive M80s loud enough that I don't want to be in the room with them with no audible breakup at all. This is particularly true when running two channel audio, movie volumes are limited by how much resonance I'm hearing from the VP 150. The sound quality is exceptional, I really don't have any complaints at all. No HDMI problems, no overheating, no shutdowns, everything worked right the first time it was plugged in. I've seen a few folks asking about the Yamaha line, I'll be happy to answer questions about this unit should any of you have any.


PS3:

This is probably the way to go if you're in the market for a Blu-ray player. Sony will be updating the firmware to meet the new BD spec shortly and the PS3 is quite a capable piece of hardware. Ten years ago I'd have killed to have something this powerful on which to run our network traffic and space based antenna sims, now it's a game system. Go figure. ;\) The only flaw is a cooling fan that goes into overdrive after about 15 minutes of use. It's can be pretty distracting at low volume levels but since I moved the PS3 behind the television it's far less an issue. And to be honest it's rarely quiet enough when I'm watching movies to notice anyway but be aware if you do a lot of low-volume late-night watching.


Pioneer 5010:

Just killer. Suffers from just a bit of black crush out of the box but a couple of clicks of additional brightness and a small contrast cut and the picture is, quite literally, perfect. It's so perfect in fact that a heavy hand by the colorist can be a bit jarring as scenes switch. I've been feeding SD DVDs to the Pioneer at 480p and letting the set upscale them. Good transfers (The Matrix Trilogy, Star Wars I-III, the T2 Extreme DVD, etc.) are exceptional.


Overall I couldn't be happier with the quality of the components and I'd buy the same system again if I were doing it over. The real cure for the VP 150 would be an M80 center but I don't have a setup that will allow that.
Posted By: Mojo Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 01:16 AM
JG,

Nice review and thanks for posting. Pictures would be a terrific touch.

I've often wondered if the right medicine for the VP150 is a handful of polyfill.

That's the second time on these boards that the Perception box has been mentioned. I think that's a hint for me to pick it up. By the way, all of my Doors CDs have some audible distortion. Some of the distortion was clearly audible on my Bose 601 series IIs but it is more audible with the 80s.

For PLII, you may want to try dialing down the 80s and also turn Panorama off.
Posted By: RickF Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 01:22 AM
Excellent review John, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with you regarding 2.1 channel music through the processed surrounds, IMO a pair of well dialed mains can produce an excellent dynamic soundstage that in my estimation cannot be beat with the use of surround processing.

Congrats on the new digs and good luck with the dialing in of the 150, hope it works out well for you.
Posted By: Wid Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 01:31 AM
Two channel here too, well 2.1

Nice write up.
Posted By: RickF Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 01:35 AM

I did say 2.1 ... look again Rick!

\:D
Posted By: Wid Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 01:36 AM

It must be my glasses
Posted By: RickF Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 01:41 AM
Oh yea, has to be your weak glasses.

Me edit?? No way no how....never.

\:D
Posted By: jakewash Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 03:48 AM
Excellent review, any room for a M80 ccenter?\:\) Perfectly matched all across the front.
Posted By: JohnK Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 05:09 AM
Enjoyed reading your review, John. I'll comment a bit on your QS8 use. If adjusted correctly(no Panorama, center width around the middle default, Dimension to taste according to how much surround ambience is naturally present in the source material)the use of processing such as DPLII significantly improves the sense of "space" by removing surround ambience from the front channels in two-channel material and putting it into the surrounds where it belongs. The level shouldn't be so high as to be audible as a separate entity, but should instead just blend in to a rather subtle degree. However, the difference becomes obvious if the switch is made to straight stereo and the sound field collapses toward the front. I always use this for the surrounds with all two-channel sources.
Posted By: Ian Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 05:17 PM
John Galt,

Thank you for the detailed post on your system. I may have a suggestion to try on your center channel but I was wondering if you are running a sub in your system?
Posted By: Murph Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 06:23 PM
Nice review. I love reviews that explain what sort of tweaks and settings they are using along with their opinions. Reading lots of 'tweak included opinions' reviews helps better educate us more on how things work and sound. One must stay objective, of course...

I do have a less technical question for you.

Whats are "space based antenna sims"?
Posted By: Mojo Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 06:34 PM
Space-based antennas are used for satellites and spacecraft. It sounds like John was working on simulating adaptive antennas that adjust their beam patterns. We've got another fan of James Clerk Maxwell.
Posted By: Murph Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 06:42 PM
I wondered if that is what he meant.
Leads me to another thought....
If Axiom and the NRC ever decide to do an experiment on the effects of weightlessness on auditory perception by sending Axioms into space, I volunteer to go along as a test subject. I'd be glad to incorporate one of John's antennas into the experiment as well.
Posted By: MarkSJohnson Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:07 PM
Hmmmm..... there's no sound in space....
Posted By: Mojo Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:11 PM
Then it's a good thing antennas don't radiate sound. They radiate electro-magnetic waves \:\) .
Posted By: JohnGalt Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:22 PM
Mojo is exactly correct regarding the space based antenna sims. Great work if you can get it but most investors have come to their senses and realized that $10k/pound launch costs are a bit prohibitive of building LEO telecom networks. But it was definitely fun while it lasted.

This being my first system with more than two channels and the first with all sorts of DSP processing I had no idea what I was doing when I set it up. I did have a vague notion that I needed to inform the system about speaker sizes and distances and managed to stumble through the menus sufficiently to accomplish that particular task. Naturally I'd not bothered to read the manual and had no idea what, precisely, these settings were going to do so I reasoned that Bose Lifestyle centers and surrounds were "small" so QS8s and a VP 150 must therefore be "large".

That actually worked rather well at low to moderate volume levels (I later found out that the small/large setting determines whether the whole range signal will be sent to a particular speaker or whether the internal low frequency crossover will roll the bass portion off), particularly with the QS8s. However at higher volume levels the low frequencies being sent to the surrounds occasionally overwhelmed them resulting in the sort of resonance I'm hearing from the VP 150 presently. Not quite identical but they sometimes had that same "vibrating box" rather than "clean and clear" tone.

Once I discovered what the speaker size setting was doing I set the QS8s and VP 150 to "small" and the sub crossover to 60 Hz (the Yamaha goes up from 40 Hz in 20 Hz increments to, IIRC, 140 Hz). That was still a bit low for the QS8s at very high volumes so I moved it on up to 80 Hz which seems perfect for the surrounds, I'm still playing with the EQ on the VP 150 though. Polyfill is a great idea Mojo, given what I'm hearing I think that might well do the trick for the center. I'll pick some up and report back here after I've tried it. No room for an M80 center but if I had the room I'd be sorely tempted to run M80s all the way around (not kidding).

JohnK - That's approximately how my QS8s sound. The rear sound field isn't distinctly audible during 2-channel playback matrixed into the surrounds and is only audible during movies when effects are routed only to them. I think my preference for pure 2-channel music is more a matter of personal taste than any shortcomings of the QS8s. To me 2-channel music matrixed into surrounds sounds a lot like a detune effect that one might apply to an electric guitar; the sound becomes a bit shimmery and smoother but loses the bright lines the M80s reproduce in a straight 2-channel mode. When one is a hack musician like myself hiding errors in tuning, intonation, and sloppy playing behind that sort of effect is like a gift from God but when I'm listening to the folks who get paid to do this sort of thing I really want to hear it warts and all. ;\)

Ian - No sub in the system yet. Two things prevented my purchasing one with the rest of the system: a) a couple of reviews of the M80s have noted that the bass response is good enough that a sub really isn't a necessity; and b) one review noted that the EP 600 (what I'd buy if I were buying a sub) can't be placed within a few feet of the M80s without experiencing a feedback loop when no signal is being fed through the system. My room's a bit small and the only good spots for a sub are 3' or so from each of the M80s, I didn't want to send a 100#+ sub back if I couldn't use it so I skipped it for the time being. Upon further review I think I'd like to have a sub but it may have to wait until I have a bit more space so that I'll have a good spot for it.
Posted By: JohnGalt Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:25 PM
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
Then it's a good thing antennas don't radiate sound. They radiate electro-magnetic waves \:\) .


A friend used to service radar antennae for the military, on occasion without shutting the systems down. He and his partner become more careful following one instance in which a couple of candy bars his partner had in a pocket were quickly liquified as he passed in front of an operating antenna. That can't be good for one's health, no? \:\)
Posted By: Murph Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:38 PM
I know your just poking me, but I kinda hoped that if I volunteered for the space testing, Axiom would provide speakers inside a space station where there would actually be air to carry the vibrations and that breathing wasn't just a option.

So let me rephrase, I volunteer...unless they want to test the Algonquin's.

AND, an antenna could be used to transfer sound waves through space, assuming that the astronaut with the bulging eyes and boiling blood sticks one end of it in his ear while somebody taps the other end with a screwdriver.

Sorry. All my posts today have been kind of silly but Im overtired and you drove me to it on this one.

Edited for spelling.
Posted By: Mojo Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:44 PM
John,

I read the same article you did about the 600 somehow creating feedback through the 80s. This is one of the first things I tried to replicate when I got my 600 and I just couldn't do it. Perhaps there was a problem that Axiom solved early on...I don't know.

You are missing a tremendous amount of the audio experience without a sub unless you listen only to flute music \:\) .
Posted By: RickF Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:44 PM
John prior to moving our 600 mid sidewall for better acoustics I had the 600 within a foot and a half of the right 80 and didn't experience any feedback whenever the system was not running....other than a ground loop that was caused by the cable TV coax, which was remedied in short order.

I don't know that I've ever heard of that before.
Posted By: Mojo Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 07:47 PM
 Originally Posted By: JohnGalt
...a couple of candy bars his partner had in a pocket were quickly liquified as he passed in front of an operating antenna. That can't be good for one's health, no? \:\)


Most people aren't aware that they are exposed to hazardous limits on a daily basis. We can always debate what's hazardous of course as there isn't a general concensus yet.
Posted By: Ian Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/16/07 11:29 PM
John Galt,

The phenomenon you are referring to of the sub feeding back to an M80 is in fact possible with any sub-woofer / front channel combination that are both capable of reproducing very low frequencies. In order for this to occur you must be using the high level input on the sub. You would be using the sub output from your receiver so this could not occur. What happens is if someone were to say slam a door hard enough to move air in the room and thereby cause the M80 driver to physically move this movement would create a signal out the speaker input (a motor is a generator when physically moved). This signal would be transmitted to the sub and the sub would reproduce it. The air moved by the sub would then physically move the M80 woofer again if they were very close to each other and around the circle we go.
Posted By: Mojo Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/17/07 01:18 AM
Ahhhh....the mystery is finally revealed. Thanks, Ian.
Posted By: JohnGalt Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/17/07 06:54 PM
Thanks for the rundown Ian, makes perfect sense. It's a shame that review is out there, I've seen is discussed in a few places and it definitely seems in indicate that this is an issue particular to your products rather than something that would happen under the right conditions with any system.

I suppose this means that I'll have to get back on the horn shortly to have an EP 600 sent this way. \:\)
Posted By: noob_from_Georgi Re: Brief Review of My New System - 10/19/07 12:13 AM
Pretty darn interesting thread.... and nice review. A 'lil over my head, by interesting none the less.

I especially liked the review of the Yam V3800. That AV was actually on my list to review....
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