Hi all,

I appreciate the 2 speakers are quite different. I will only be using the speakers for movies and will have a good sub (EP500).

My room is smaller ~1600 cubic feet.

I have read great things about both speakers and honestly prefer the looks of the M22 on the FMS16 stands to the towers. But there in lies one of the issues: if I add the stands to the price of the M22s, I am only $144 (per speaker) shy of M60 - price is important, but not the main driver.

I guess really, I am looking for comments on whether in a room my size, with a good sub, and for movies/tv only, if you think there is much of a benefit in moving up to the M60s.

Thanks.

P, welcome. My situation is similar to what you describe, except that the vast majority of my use is for music. My view is that for that size of room the M22s plus a good sub such as the EP500 I use are ideal for movies as well. Note that you don't necessarily have to use the FMS16s; many have used lower cost options or constructed their own stands.

Some cheaper stands.

Thanks for the responses so far. wid, thanks for the link - though by the time I pay for shipping, duty, and brokerage fees (I'm in Canada), I suspect I won't be too far ahead of the game. Especially if I order the axiom stands as part of a larger order and/or get them at Factory Outlet pricing.

Really, the few hundred dollar difference in price between the speakers isn't a deal breaker, but I'd rather not spend it if there isn't going to be a benefit given my room size and listening preferences.

Thanks.

pheare, are you up for making your own stands? It takes about 1 hour for a pair, and end up costing around $50/pair, all the supplies can be found at home depot.

TNT-Stubby DIY Stand



I didn't fill my stands with sand just so you know. I also did a second pair for my father-in-law's home theatre for M22s as well, using pine as a base and top, it worked quite well!

Well, let me throw in my vote for the M60s.

They will allow you to cross over at 60Hz (or maybe even 40Hz) rather than the 80Hz (or sometimes higher) for the M22s. Although your sub will fill the gap either way, getting some bass from your Mains means that for a good part of the bass frequency range, you'll have three sources instead of just the one with the sub. Though the sub will already play louder than you'll ever want in your room, with three transducers you'll have a more even bass in the room.

If you ever get into some music listening down the road, many find the M60s by themselves better than a speaker/sub setup. Finally, you'll have better resale value and more flexibility down the road....

As some one who has had M60s and M22 to directly compare I did prefer the M60s to the M22s but only when I was able to do the direct comparison during HT use. There is an obvious advantage to music going with the M60s, but as you state this is strictly for HT so the M22s will work extremely well and the difference is $288 for the set, almost $300 quite significant when looked at as a pair and not broken down into individual speakers.

Have you considered going with the Factory Outlet to help keep costs down?

Instead of stands, could you wall mount the M22s?

I have to agree with MarkSJohnson on this one. My room is a little larger, about 1800 cu/Ft. I not only use M60's with an EP500, but I also use 4 QS8's AND a second DIY sub positioned behind my couch along the back wall.

At night when the wife is asleep I need to turn off the SUB's so that the house doesn't shake. But the M60's still put out enough bass to make whatever I am watching sound good. And as mentioned, you will probably listen to some music eventually either through cable, radio, or a concert DVD. Then you will appreciate having some lower end come out of the front's.

Thanks for all the responses:

Hutzal, nice looking stands - while I could probably make my own, I'd just soon buy them. I really like the way the stands for the M22 connect directly to the speaker and make the base almost look like it has disappeared.

jakewash: Yes, I will most likely be using the factory outlet option whichever way I go. While I probably could wall mount, I don't see that happening - do the M22 have a port on the back of them?

It's not that I don't listen to music currently - my house is wired for sound, so music is almost always going. I know the quality of my in ceiling speakers (will also be putting some M3 v2's in another part of my basement) can't compare to the M60s, but I really will probably never listen to music via my home theater setup - if I do the odd time, I'd imagine the M22's would be such an improvement over my current setup 'music' setup, I'd be more than happy.

Anyways, good discussion, and is giving me things to consider. Keep it coming.

Thanks.

For MOVIES, assuming you have a good sub, I don't believe there will be a lot of difference between M60's and M22's.

I say that, NOT owning M60's but owning M80's. My front stage used to be M22's and a VP150. Now it's M80's and a VP150 with the M22's acting as rears. For *movies*, there really isn't a whole lot of difference between M80's and M22's. Some, yes, but not a whole lot. The mains and rears just aren't used all that much in many movies. Certainly for effects and so forth, but the core experience of a movie is expressed by the center and sub channels, not the L/R nor rear channels.

Now if you don't have a good sub, and are counting on your mains to provide bass, then there will be a significant difference between M60's and M22's. But even in this case, I'd say stick with M22's and put your pennies into a good sub instead of the M60's. As I have learned from personal experience, there's just no substitute for a good sub. You're getting an EP500. That's not a good sub. That's a GREAT sub.

For MUSIC, however, there is a big difference between M80's and M22's. While I love my M22's for what they are, they are severely outgunned by the M80's in terms of musicality. I'm sure it's about the same for M60's.

So you will need to decide for yourself how important music is. If this system is truly just for movies, and that's all that will ever be asked from it, then I'd say M22's + a good sub is a fine choice. If you're ever going to just relax in the room and really listen to music, then I'd suggest M60's (or M80's, if you suffer from the 'what-ifs' as I do).

Oh, and yes, M22's have a rear port. If you're going to wall-mount them, make sure you get the proper equipment to do so. They are pretty heavy speakers to wall mount, IMHO. Look at the W22's if you're considering wall mounted speakers.

I have always been a great fan of the floor standing speaker. Bookshelf speakers are great for bedrooms, home offices, garages, etc. For me, home theater's will always sound best with a floor standing speaker. I wish I could dump my VP150 for a third M80 (and may do that in the future).

The reason is the male voice. I would rather have the entire male voice come from one speaker, as opposed to it being split over to a sub. I also own the ep500, and it is an awesome sub. But I am one that does not like the sub to handle the male voice.

With the M60's you can set the crossover to 60 Hertz and not have to worry about the sub dealing with the male voice.

I am sure others here will disagree, but that is my preference.

Paul

You don't hear voices coming from your sub do you? I know the male voice sounds more accurate on the VP150 than the 100 but to insinuate that the male voice drops low enough to come out of the sub......I just don't know, I have never heard anything resembling voices out of a sub.

The typical male voice frequency is between 85 and 1555 Hz. A really deep male voce like James Earl Jones aka Darth Vader, could be even lower. If you set your crossover to 100 Hz, which you might be temped to do with the M22's, you would get voice out of your sub. This will make sub placement even more critical.

100hz with M22 isn't needed, they are good through to 80 and slightly(barely) lower. I agree 100hz is just too high for a center

I don’t believe that 2 M22's with a crossover set at 80 Hz will have the same presence and lower end definition as 2 m60's with crossover set at 60 Hz. This is just physics, a bookshelf speaker with two 5-1/4 woofers can't possibly move as much air as a floor standing speaker with dual 6-1/2 drivers and a single 5-1/4. Even though the M22's can reach 60 Hz, there is now way they would sound as good as the M60's in that lower range. So going the M22 route you will be asking the sub to do more work (the nice thing about the EP500, is that it is more an up to the task).

However, if you are asking your sub to play the higher frequencies 80 Hz, the placement of the sub becomes that much more challenging. That in itself is a reason to go with the M60’s and a crossover set at 60 Hz.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure the M22' is a great speaker (it should be, it comes from Axiom) and the Corvette is a great car, but it's not the McLaren F1.

If you have the room and the budget, get the M60’s, you won’t be disappointed! And if you can, figure out a way, get a 3rd as your center speaker.

My M22's were crossed at 80hz when I used them as fronts. I had them for several years that way. I can't recall any situation where I thought 'gee, that guy's voice is coming from the sub, that sounds bad', even when I had a less-than-stellar sub. That includes plenty of movies with actors with very deep voices including James Earl Jones, Jean Reno (french guy, The Professional, Ronin, etc), Christopher Lee, and Michael Clarke Duncan (huge guy with probably the deepest voice I've ever heard, from The Green Mile, Armageddon, etc). A properly set up and calibrated system will blend seamlessly.

Again, for movies, I really don't think the crossover points for the L/R mains matter very much because the vast majority of the dialog will be mixed to the center channel. Unless, of course, you've got your system configured to do a phantom center channel.

It is absolutely true that M60's and M80's move more air than M22's. Absolutely true that M60's and M80's have a wider dynamic range, are more musical, and are more versatile than M22's. But for MOVIES only in in a smallish-room, I really don't think there's a whole lot of difference between M22's + EP500 and M60's + EP500. I just don't think there's enough dynamic musical material in a movie to make a difference, unless you only watch musicals or something.

You bring up some good points that make me ask some questions.

If the male voice can get to 80 Hz and your subwoofer is set to 100 Hz why wouldn't you hear voice out of the sub?

Is is because the LFE of DTS and DD don't send voice info to the sub?

What about HT in a box or Bose systems with tiny cube speakers, that don't have any bottem end at all. In this case, the LFE must support the lower voice frequencies, right? Would setting the spakers from Large to small have an effect on the LFE and sending speach info to the sub?

Anybody know?

Well, the male voice can certainly get down to 80 Hz, and probably below for certain basses, I don't think there are many people who actually talk that low--it takes an effort to get down there, unless you're Barry White. So I'd say that for virtually all movies sans singing (and serious singing at that--most popular male performers are tenors), you're not going to be hearing voices through your sub.

Human voice is rich in harmonics. The dominant might go through the sub in some cases, but the higher harmonics (the ones that will help you tell where the sing is) will go through your main.

LFE is just that, Low Frequency Effectsand DD and DTS do not include speech in the LFE channel, this is specifically mixed for sounds.

As to the Bose, I know my parents 3-2-1 system in fact does have voices coming out of the bass module, you have to remember that in these cube systems the sattelites do not do any of the lower freqencies so the processor throws everything below their crossover points to this bass module it, remember it is not a sub.

I just watched an episode of Mythbusters and they were trying to extinguish a flame with the human voice, amplified and non-amplified. They used a tone generator and when amplified were able to put out the flame. When they moved to the human voice they had a singing group come in and once again measured output frequency and the lowest voiced singer is the one that did the job at 50hz and doing something along a 'rasberry' at the same time to achieve maximum driver movement in the speaker. He was successful in putting out the flame when his voice was amplified. The singer was working fairly hard to get that low note. I think they measured him down into 30hz range.

Now this adds to the question, when in 2.1 channel do vocals end up going to the sub and we just can not distinguish from all the other noises getting sent to the sub.

That episode was such a cop out. Putting a candle in front of a big honking speaker cone? Of course it's going to get blown out.

Sorry about he Bose comment, I should have known better, the box is just the rest of the speaker and you are correct, it's not a sub.

So then what does DD and DTS really send to the sub when you set your speakers to small and what is the frequency crossover point?. Is it different for every processor, or is there an industry standard?

Paul

Have never heard bass voices(or anything else)specifically coming from a sub. DD and DTS, along with everything else, send the frequencies under the selected point to the sub.

I don't think anybody has gone off topic yet..... Please, allow me.

Re: the frequency of James Earl Jones' voice.
It was all I could do not to start chuckling during my wedding because the judge who married us in the Dominican Republic looked and sounded EXACTLY like James Earl Jones. I'm talking an exact duplicate in looks and voice. He spoke in Spanish but all I could think of was, 'I wonder if that is how you say "Luke I am your father" in Spanish.'

We had a second ceremony in a church with just the immediate family when we returned, just in case I got the religious posters thinking. heh heh. Then a HUGE party.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that low frequencies are non-directional. We humans are very good at pinpointing the location of high frequencies. But as the tone gets lower, it becomes harder for our brains to differentiate where the sound is coming from.

A subwoofer should only be producing these low, non-directional frequencies, which is why you should not able to pick out the voice being produced from the sub. Sure, you can go stand right next to the sub and hear/feel it producing bass and low tones, but from a normal seating position you shouldn't be able to pinpoint that it's coming from the sub.

If you can pinpoint the sub (i.e. male voices coming from the corner of the room rather than from the front soundstage), I'd bet that your crossover is too high or your system isn't calibrated properly. A sub should not bring attention to itself. I don't mean that it shouldn't be heard or felt. I just mean that it should compliment the main speakers and blend seamlessly into the sonic picture. It should not really stand out as another speaker.

With that in mind, I am absolutely positive that my sub is helping with the low frequencies of instruments and voices. James Earl Jones, pipe organs, explosions, etc. If I flip the sub off, it's immediately aparent. But those harmonics are too low to pinpoint as coming from the sub. They blend in with the rest of the speakers.

This is also why you can often pinpoint the location of a 'bass module' in a Bose system. By design, Bose uses a much higher crossover than is normally used between the cubes and the module. It depends on the speaker and system design, but usually systems crossovers are between 60hz and maybe 120hz. Sometimes a little lower, sometimes a little higher. But I believe that I've read that Bose systems are crossed over somwhere in the neighborhood of 250hz, which is well into the range where most can readily pinpoint the source. My biggest complaint with Bose systems is that they just don't paint a realistic soundstage because of this weird, high, and noticable crossover.

Not one of their better episodes, no. But I don't know if was actually air movement that blew out the candle. As I recall, the flame 'danced' and flickered as they altered the frequency. It was not a specific volume that extinguished it, but a specific frequency. I'm not a physicist, but I think it had to do with the sound pressure waves, not so much a moving column of air as one would find from a speaker port.

I really wish Mythbusters would do annother audio myth episode. I would dearly love to see them test some of the debated ones; such as if different amps sound different, whether wiring makes a difference, green markers on CD's, elevated speaker wire, etc, etc.

You know, I've thought about that, but it would be really dull TV.

Exactly what I was thinking. They should stick to blowing up stuff!

Eeeeehhhhh... the blowing stuff up gig is getting a little tired, too. I like the car crashes, myself.

If you go to the mythbusters website the forum has lots of requests for audio myths to be tested but as was stated I fear it would be to boring for most people to watch.....until they put all the equipment in a car and crash it into a wall and then blow it up.

So what is the magic frequency that most people can't locate the sound? I am gussing it would be around 90 to 100 Hz?

Paul

I cant find it at the moment but there is a youtube video out there somewhere of a guy who built a long multi holed tube, burnt propane along the length of the tube then used multiple speakers or something of individually tuned frequencies to change the flame.

Looked like a huge burning EQ Spectrum Analyzer.

May have been a fake but was cool to see.

Oh, it's real, all right. It's a Rubens Tube.

That's It! Very cool. I had forgotten how he set up the sound system so I was inaccurate there, which is why I tried to stay vague, but the result is still impressive.

Excellent! I had never seen this before. I guess the video you be subtitled: "Don't try this at home."