I’m in the market for a new subwoofer. Although I love my other Axiom speakers, I initially dismissed the idea getting an Axiom sub. Well, I’ve spent the last two weeks researching subs, and after driving myself crazy with wattage ratings and frequency responses, I've ended up back at Axiom.
I’ve narrowed it down to:
Hsu VTF-2 MK 3Axiom EP350The specs are pretty similar. I like that the Axiom is a bit smaller, but it is $250 more than the Hsu. So, I’m looking for opinions that’ll tip me one way or the other.
Thanks.
I think you are going to have to make the purchases and decide for yourself, they are both good subs and have a slightly different sound. The Axiom will blend with your system like no other sub and it has a nice punch to it, not heavy and should be a perfect match aesthetically to the rest of the system.
I haven't heard the Hsu you are looking at, but the STF3 I have heard had more impact/punch than the 350, IMO(just going from memory, no side by side comparisons), which to me is better for HT. The STF3 was good with music but I had a hard time getting it to blend smoothly with my Axioms, but that could have just been positioning of the sub.
Personally, if it was I who had to chose between these two subs, I would go Axiom.
Also, if you want all your subs to have the same finish, you might want to go the Axiom route, however, that may not be important.
Gotta say that I love my EP350v3, although I haven't heard the VTF-2.
I haven't heard the Hsu you are looking at, but the STF3 I have heard had more impact/punch than the 350
That concerns me. My HT is primarily for film, so I definitely want the best movie experience.
Another concern that I forgot to mention was that I have limited placement. The arrows on the below graphic indicate where the sub could go.
I'm hoping the EP350 can work for me under these conditions.
The 350 will work great, the punch that it has is just a different feel than the Hsu, don't worry.
Don't forget to add shipping costs to the HSU when you compare.
On paper, many other subs go lower than the EP350 (18Hz at -9db dosn't count). I am surprised that that has not shown up in any of the listening comparisons. One would think that would have an audable impact, particularly for HT.
On paper, many other subs go lower than the EP350 (18Hz at -9db dosn't count). I am surprised that that has not shown up in any of the listening comparisons. One would think that would have an audable impact, particularly for HT.
So how low does the EP350 actually go? The Hsu does look to go down to 18Hz.
I found the lower notes are really only noticeable when A/B comparing otherwise anything around 20hz works just fine.
What does "18Hz at -9db dosn't count" mean, though?
What concerns me is that, if you look at the "waterfall" charts over on AVS, some DVDs/BDs go down to 8Hz. If the Hsu can actually push that lower than the Axiom, perhaps the Hsu would be more suited to my needs.
18hz @ -9db means the frequency is being played 9db lower than the reference level and at -9 down you wouldn't hear it much in relation to the other frequencies, but you will still fell it. Anything below 20hz is said to be subsonic, you don't hear it, you feel it.
The Hsu you are looking at would still have problems with 8hz as well, to get that low with any sort of power and stay clean(no distortion)you now need to be looking at the upper echelon of subs. Even my PB13 - Ultra in 10hz mode is down considerably at 10hz, about 12db IIRC.
This is where all those reviews get Axiom into trouble as they may not play as low but as I said, unless A/B comparing the lower frequency response wasn't missed, at least that has been my experience.
OK, thanks. I thought he was that the Axiom couldn't really handle the 18Hz.
80 hz and below is when freq's become non directional. Some people "think" they can determine the location.
If you are willing to spend over 700 for the 350 why not look at the Hsu Vtf 3MK3. As far as not getting the Stf 3 to blend in I would have chalk that up to positioning. I have the Stf 3 in a music set up with a set of M80s and find it blends in and sounds fantastic.
Has anyone ever seen a graph or measurement of the EP350? I really would like to know if this thing can actually handle 18Hz or if it’s actually a 28Hz sub.
but you will still fell it.
You're right Jason, I was thinking in audible terms. I really don't know how much difference in 'feel' 9db would make.
The -3db point is still pretty high, 28Hz. Again, I don't know how much sound there is in music or movies between 20 and 28Hz.
In the end, I guess I have to compare for myself to see what difference it makes.
The -3db point is still pretty high, 28Hz. Again, I don't know how much sound there is in music or movies between 20 and 28Hz.
These waterfall graphs are why I'm looking for a sub that can reach 20Hz - 18Hz.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493
Interesting. I have never looked at waterfall graphs before. So most of the LFE is in the 30-60Hz range with stuff pushing down to 18-20Hz and very occasionally lower.
I have not seen any graphs of the EP350. I too am curious to know what they would look like.
Interesting. I have never looked at waterfall graphs before. So most of the LFE is in the 30-60Hz range with stuff pushing down to 18-20Hz and very occasionally lower.
Which is why being able to play below 20hz is not that critical and not really missed. In my A/B testing I could tell which subs went lower but I also never felt I was really missing anything with the higher tuned subs.
The PB12-NSD I have here plays down in to the teens just like the PB13, but the driver size, box size, amp all play a part in how each sub sounds. The PB13 has a more airy, encompassing sound to it compared to the PB12. The EP600 has an even more encompassing sound to it than the PB13. I am quite certain the PB13 reaches lower than the EP600 but it isn't missed when listening to the EP600. These are the types of things graphs are unable to show.
Grrr! Why is this so hard?! I cannot seem to choose between the EP350 and the Hsu.
Someone tell me something awful about the Axiom!
Last night my two 350s rocked my refrigerator that's 20' away so much so that the ice cubes tray fell over inside, scaring my cats, leaving two large gashes in the side of my couch. True story.
Do you have pics of the Gashes? Thats pretty cool.. (in a...sucky sort of way...)
Haha, I do. I will post them with the rest of the pics I owe you guys in a few days. Still finalizing the setup here, and with work being a bastard it'll be a few.
Oh I should add that the cause of this was opening scene in House of Flying Daggers when he throws the plate of beans. I will admit I damn near fell out of my chair.
Last night my two 350s rocked my refrigerator that's 20' away so much so that the ice cubes tray fell over inside, scaring my cats, leaving two large gashes in the side of my couch. True story.
You’re supposed to tell me something
bad . . . not awesome.
I saw someone's EP350 in the warehouse and the box was barely there as it had gotten wet. Is that bad enough?
JLunden,
The VTF-2 is $550 with shipping, the EP350 from the Factory Outlet (which in my experience, looks like new speakers), is $669. The EP350 also has a more powerful amp than the VTF-2, rated at 300 watts (vs 250 watts) which will provide greater, and cleaner output at the lows of the low frequencies.
I'd say for only a difference of $119, go with the EP350.
Also, why do some of the more expensive Axiom subs have a higher Hz rating? For example, the EP400 only states a response of 23Hz.
The pricepoint on the EP400 is higher due to the form factor. You're paying more for the performance squeezed into a small package. It's like the subwoofer the spy world would use.
I don't think anyone here would argue that the EP400 has a terrible price point.
Also, why do some of the more expensive Axiom subs have a higher Hz rating? For example, the EP400 only states a response of 23Hz.
With the EP400 you are paying for the DSP and the ability to hit 23hz in a small box, not many subs out there the size of the EP400 can do it, especially with an 8" driver.
I think the EP350 may have just been bumped from consideration.
AV123 MFW-1515" woofer, 350 watts, and a 18-200Hz rating for $599.
Have you looked at the
eD subs
Yeah. I don't really like the look of them. And that AV123 sub still comes out to be a better deal, especially with the 15" woofer.
I wonder what shipping cost on that would be?
its also back ordered until July/August..maybe longer.
Which is why being able to play below 20hz is not that critical and not really missed. In my A/B testing I could tell which subs went lower but I also never felt I was really missing anything with the higher tuned subs.
Which is exactly what I was wondering last night.
The PB12-NSD I have here plays down in to the teens just like the PB13, but the driver size, box size, amp all play a part in how each sub sounds. The PB13 has a more airy, encompassing sound to it compared to the PB12. The EP600 has an even more encompassing sound to it than the PB13.
Which leads to more questions that I will ask in a separate thread. It does seem like others noticed the difference between the EP500/600 for movies and it was quite a difference. Those subs are out of my price range though.
Yes there are quite a few offerings that seem to go lower for less when compared to the EP350.
I don't exactly know why, but my marketing-hype sense goes all tingly whenever people start talking about the MFW15. I wish somebody would hurry up and measure the thing.
I don't exactly know why, but my marketing-hype sense goes all tingly whenever people start talking about the MFW15. I wish somebody would hurry up and measure the thing.
They have. This guy called "craigsub" who used to post on AVS has a new site with sub ratings. He seems to be well regarded within the AVS community and does his testing with a group of audiophiles and engineers.
Check out his site here:
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11Here's what he said about the MFW-15:
Listening results: The MFW-15 amazed the panel by largely matching the PB13 Ultra in all musical areas with the exception of pipe organ. Bass is deep, tight and powerful, with no overhang at all. The cabinet work done on this subwoofer is absolultely stellar, especially in its price range. By stellar, we mean just how inert it is. The cabinet barely vibrates during the most powerful passages, and this helps the MFW-15 to get its excellent musical rating. It is, as an earlier graph shows, very linear in its response curve, all the way to 100 Hz. It is in the area of slam an linearity that allows this subwoofer to match more high priced units. The Steely Dan disc on this subwoofer is a bass head's dream, with a lot of the panel requesting to hear it again after the test. Stanley Clarke was also as crystal clear on the MFW-15 as with any subwoofer we have had.
I have seen the list. Its graphs I am interested in, like those done on hometheatershack.com.
FWIW, Craig,through his newly formed company, is now associated with Mr. Seaton/AV123.
Edited to correct exceedingly bad grammer.
Saturday I had a bunch of people from work over playing Rockband. Totally addicted two of them who have already gone out and bought the gear, but I digress.
One of the gals was leaning against the wall in the corner opposite the EP500. During the victory rumble after a song, the wall she was leaning on vibrated so much she screamed and looked behind her. Very very funny!
This reminds me, I need to look up the volume limiter feature in my Denon manual. The more drinks you serve the more people sneak up and turn the dial.