Not happy with my sound... - Axiom Message Boards

I need to get my home theater to sound good with mp3s. Yes, I am aware that mp3s aren't good quality.
Im slowly upgrading the system, what should be replaced next?

I have a crappy $150 receiver, crappy 18 ga. cables..what should I replace first?

I have very nice speakers, Axiom M2i's for the fronts, VP100 for the center, and the EP175 sub. I'm waiting till I get the money for rears. I don't know what, but something sounds really bad on the system. It might be muddy bass or distorted sound. How can I isolate the weakness and fix it? It kind of sounds like the levels are messed up or something, but I have played with them tons. Maybe like the seperation between sub and mains isn't right...

Movies sound very good on the system, but the setup is lacking something musicly...

I really need some advice on what to do, thanks in advance.

Rip your music using ogg or ape. MP3's are crap for music.

well I do have a few mp3's that are like 320 Kb/s bitrate, is 320 even close to the quality of ogg vorbis? should I get a new receiver? I am using a $150 kenwood from a HTIAB system. If so should I go with Outlaw or Denon or Onkyo... I am looking to spend about 400.

AMD

i'd get a new receiver. i have the denon 1602, which is rather inexpensive. you could get the 1603 or 1403 and it will be great. just get some regular 12 ga cable, it will cost you maybe 50$ for a 100 foot spool. get it at home depot or something like that, and you will have all you need.

as for ogg vorbis, i hear it is far better than mp3, but i'm curious as well to know if it's better than 320kbps. i ought to look into it more, however, i don't rip any music myself, i just download, and mp3 is WAY more common than any other format, unfortunately, because it's not the best one.

exactly. The reason Mp3 is so popular is because the compression scheme is so awesome. Mp3s work by tricking your ear into hearing things that aren't really there. Mp3 uses the same technology as DivX (Motion Picture Expert Group) files. They are extremely efficient. I believe the compression in ogg is just slightly better, but thet havent taken off yet. I guess I would have to do a side by side comparison of equal size files of both formats to determine which one is higher fidelity. (Yea, I'm a big computer geek with all this stuff...If anyone on the boards ever needs computer help I'm the one to come to)However, I am new to the world of home-theater.

I will look into a new receiver..How do you like the 1602? Is there any real difference between monster cable and cheaper (non-oxide) speaker wire?

The distortion or muddiness you're hearing is the effect of accurate speakers playing compressed MP3s on a cheap receiver. It's the curse of good equipment making up only one part of your system, where all of a sudden you're able to appreciate the mess upstream.

I had a similar problem, and a new receiver made a huge difference. If it's in your budget, a unit like the Outlaw 1050 or a Yamaha receiver will help bring your system up to snuff.

AMD,
The mp3 compression scheme is anything but awesome. Although it is a neat idea to shorten uncompressed, and large, wav files into smaller, more tradable versions, the compression removes information that is perceived 'unhearable' by human ears. It clips out high frequencies, low frequencies and most other sound spikes that could not be heard on a crappy computer sound system (or most car stereos) anyway.
If you have ever seen a divx movie, you will note that this same crappy compression carries over into the visuals quite easily. Since it is easier for people to distinguish a dvd movie from its divx equivalent, give this test a try:
Rent a dvd, lets say Mothman Prophecies and download the divx version
(***Note: REMOVE DIVX/mp3 FROM COMPUTER AFTER USE. THIS FORUM POSTER DOES NOT CONDONE THE DOWNLOADING OF ILLEGAL MATERIAL DUE TO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENTS. THOSE WHO DO NOT HEED THIS WARNING MAY/CAN BE SODOMIZED BY THE RIAA***)
Then go to an area in the movie where darkness prevails. Watch how often the divx version breaks up and the quality of the darkness becomes blocky. Due to the lack of detail in these scenes from the darkness, it is clear to see how the divx compression technique removed visual information perceived 'unviewable' by human eyes (just plain black darkness) in order to do its compression trick.
Apply those same visual artifacts but to a sound format like mp3 and you will truly understand how crappy the mp3 really is.

As for all the bitrates stuff, i suggest you get Semi to discuss it more. He's a part time kinda guy at Ars Technica. For some crazy reason i would trust his computer knowledge in the extreme.

In regards to the speaker wire, any cheap Home Depot stuff will do. All speaker wire is non-oxide since all metal oxides are either 'rust' or powder materials, typically useless for electrical conduction.

All that being said, i certainly would consider a receiver or cd player upgrade but really the first solution might be to quit using mp3s.

In reply to:
(Yea, I'm a big computer geek with all this stuff...If anyone on the boards ever needs computer help I'm the one to come to)

There are a few people here worth talking to in this regard.

As chess mentioned, I report for ArsTechnica and moderate a couple of their fora, though I've been sadly far too busy lately with the new job.

A new receiver would definitely help your overall experience but it may very well make the MP3 problem worse. The higher end you go, the better your equipment becomes at producing all that information a cheap pair of Logitechs and a TBSC can't. MP3 was designed specifically for portability, both over the net and in your hand. It eliminates information most people won't hear on their low end equipment and applies mathematical formulation to the remaining material in order to describe the wave form in terms of parameters instead of discrete waveform points. Most compression does this making neither MP3 nor Divx especially unique in this fashion. If you really want to see cool compression, do a little research on cell phones.

Newer schemes have been developed that go further than MP3 in either sound quality or size or both. Sony's ATRAC3 is even better than MP3 and it dates to about the same time though it incorporates DRM. Newer formats such as ogg and WMA will produce a better sound, though the latter is often deamed evil simply because of its owner and it can include DRM which terrifies me in general. .APE is actually losless, meaning that not one bit (no pun intended) of the original waveform is lost though it compresses to a significantly larger file. And unfortunately, not all 320kbps MP3's are created evil. On decent (not even good) equipment, a 320kbps MP3 encoded using something like Musicmatch (far more likely than anythign else sadly) and the Frenhausen (or however they spell it...) codec will sound significantly less acurate than a LAME encoded file using even -alt standard (let alone -alt extreme or -alt insane). If you want to find the best MP3's possible, you need to get yourself on the Ubernode and delete all the crap you have now. Ubernode requires you to use EAC and LAME to encode your MP3's which is the best you can hope for.

Sadly, the main reason for using MP3's, the ease with which one can find music, perpetuates the problem of crappy sound files. The majority of computer users aren't savvy enough to find an alternative and the majority of computer users outnumber us geeks thousands fold.

If you are dead set on being able to download heavily compressed audio files, you can't hope for greatness and you'll likely have to simply grin and bear it. The only other semi-worthwhile alternative is to buy used and independent CDs from a local shop so as to screw the RIAA out of royalties, rip them in .ape and sell them back to recoup some of your expenses. Personally, I've just given up on recorded music all together until the RIAA is dead and something other than corporately generated crap is available in a format more worthy of my Axioms than CD.

Regards,
Semi

I forgot to mention. Monster's basic cables that stores like Best Buy and Circuit City love to push are actually inferior to good generic wire. They're only 16ga whereas you can buy 12ga from Home Depot for about $0.47 per foot. Beyond the Home Depot stuff, you won't hear an IMPROVEMENT at all.

I would say that there's a lot of variables in here to know exactly where the problem is... yes, like other posters have said, MP3 isn't that great - but yes, it is very convenient.

I would start off by doing a little controlled testing. Take the same CD and play it through your computer to your stereo, and then try the same w/ your home CD player. If playing the CD on the computer sounds worse, then there's a problem w/ the sound coming from the computer, regardless of source. You might want to look into a better soundcard at that point - or even offloading the signal to an external DAC, etc.

An experiment I'd like to try (but don't have the cash to) is to see what MP3's sound like through a vacuum tube amplifier. I've heard of people doing this, and it might be just voodoo, but the idea is that vacuum tubes distort the sound, but in a way most everyone finds very pleasing - so if you take this signal that's deficient and "fuzz" it up a little, it might sound better. Of course, everything would just sound better through tubes (IMO). There's even a company that makes a sound card for your computer that uses a vaccuum tube. I just read about it recently, so I don't know any specfics, but i'm sure it's pricey.

I personally prefer vinyl and hate CDs - but I do end up listening to MP3's out of sheer convenience - and I generally think my iPod does a better job with the sound than some computers I've heard. I'd just rather not listen to digital music in general, though. I think it has to do with being surrounded by so much technology, I find it really refreshing to sit down with something low-tech that I can understand and work on. Same reason I drive '60s cars, usually British, although right now it's a '66 Volvo P1800 that I just love... but I digress.

Anyway - my whole point was, don't try to solve a situation all at once. Take it bit by bit to find the cause of your problem. I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with interconnects or speaker wire, since by your original post it seems like you have some other point of reference - so obviously SOME things do sound satisfactory on your system. Getting bigger wire and better interconnects won't hurt - but that will improve the ENTIRE system, not just the component that you are trying to "fix."

God that was rambling - I hope it helped.

I used to be a MP3 nut and downloaded till the cows came home. It sounded great on my Altec Lansing speakers. One day I bought a good reciever and B&W speakers. I piped the same music throught that reciever. I just realized then how crap MP3s actually do actually sound. Many years later with newer higher end recievers and a slew of different revealing speakers, I went back to actually buying all the CDs I enjoyed. I use mp3 today as a means to sample music and the ones that I enjoy I head on down to the local Music store and purchase it. Time can't be better spent sitting on my comfy chair and listening to clear, clean recordings of my favorite music on a decent reciever and revealing speakers. Over the years I have Axioms, Monitor Audio, Paradigm, B&W to thank for that.

ps:I didnt know there was computer experts using MAC products.

The point on his sound card is actually well placed and it would probably be a good start if AMD listed exactly which card he's using, on which OS, with which drivers and how he has it connected to his receiver.

In reply to:
There's even a company that makes a sound card for your computer that uses a vaccuum tube. I just read about it recently, so I don't know any specfics, but i'm sure it's pricey.

It's not a soundcard. It's actually the AOpen AX4B 533 motherboard that uses a tube amp for the onboard sound, a ridiculous suggestion by AOpen. Tubes are very susceptible to EM disturbance and the inside of a computer with a massive switch mode power supply is about as EM heavy an environment as you can find. What's more, tube amps require high temperatures to opperate and I sure as hell don't want that kind of heat in my carefully cooled system.

MP3's CAN be done in a way that isn't too bad. Unfortunately, almost none of the people you download from know how to do it.

In reply to:
ps:I didnt know there was computer experts using MAC products.

I missed exactly to whom you were refering but even our own Hannibal at ArsTechnica, a CPU guru, is a big Mac fan now. All things are tools and some tools are better than others at certain tasks.

Thanks to evereyone who replied!
My soundcard is a GTXP using digital out to the receiver.

so when companies say oxygen free wire it is just a market ploy?

In reply to:
Thanks to evereyone who replied!
My soundcard is a GTXP using digital out to the receiver.

Shouldn't be a problem there for MP3's anyway.

In reply to:
so when companies say oxygen free wire it is just a market ploy?

Yep. And it gets much worse the more you spend...

The MAC comment was a joke. Since he was using an IPOD he could have been a MAC user.

Save your money on cables, your not going to hear any noticeable difference there, put your money where you will get the biggest bang for your buck. Replace that receiver first.

I didn't take any offense at the comment at all... I am mac user, but almost never mention it since it sparks too many arguments of near religious ferver.

Actually, I'm a bit more than a mac user - I work for Apple. Once you've worked there long enough you get pretty thick skin - I've heard almost every insult possible - so even your comment was serious, it wouldn't phase me one bit.

cheers!

I didn't pick up on the iPod comment because the iPod has become THE MP3 player among computer enthusiasts on both platforms.

NoWave:

Can you say hello to P. Schreiber at Apple. Tell him he owes me his set of pictures from the Whistler snowboard trip.

Saturn

it sparks too many arguments of near religious ferver.

What do you mean near religious?

I've never been a big fan of Mac's until OS X. I'd almost buy one now except I just can't justify the cost of them.

But just for kicks, I'll throw out my favorite line once in a Wintel - Mac argument..

"Come back and talk to me when you get another mouse button".