I have an epic 60.500 setup and the sub just _feels_ wrong. I can hear the sub kicking in long before I get any bass from the M60's. I've played around with the volume on the sub but it seems that if I turn the sub down then there isn't enough bass but if I turn it up its just obnoxious. The bass just sounds fake, loose and "vibratey." Like some punk kid with a bass kicker in his trunk removed all the weather stripping so it would rattle more. Here is my setup beyond the epic 60.500:

Receiver: Sony STR-DA5300ES
Primary Audio Source: Sony PlayStation 3 (games and blu-ray)

Receiver has speakers all set to small (this setting allows you to choose the cross over) and a cross over matching the sub (see below)

Sub and the receiver are currently set to a cross-over of 60 or 80 (I'll update my post with the exact setting when I get home. I'm nearly positive its 80).

Sub phase is 0 (I tried both and couldn't feel a difference) and trim is Flat. I've tried volume settings anywhere from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock.

I'd sure like some advice.

Buy an SPL meter and calibrate your whole system.

First of all you don't want to have your sub crossover in the loop since your receiver is handling the bass managment. Turn the crossover knob on the 500 to "bypass", or to the highest setting if you have a newer model. You don't want the sub on 80 and the receiver.

Also, did you set your delay (distance) setting in the receiver for all speakers?

Also, where is the sub positioned in relation to the other speakers? Did you also calibrate your speakers using the receiver pink noise to the same SPL?

Try following the instructions on Mojo's post about halfway down the page on the link below. I have used it with my 80s and EP500. As far as a SPL meter goes I think it should be a mandatory purchase with a home theater, I don't know what I would do without mine. Sub positioning just as sirquack mentioned is extremely important. I had my EP500 positioned in the front left corner of my room and wasn't happy with the results because it was causing a localized effect with LFE. I recently relocated it to the side wall about 2 ft. behind my listening position and I noticed a huge difference. You could also try the subwoofer crawl Video or even the EP500 setup Video

Link

I'm not as knowledgeable as the other guys on this forum but hopefully that helps. Let us know how you make out.

Cam

My guess is the sub is too hot and you need to turn down the gain on it. As the others have mentioned you need an SPL meter and set the system up with all speakers to the same level, using the pink noise from the receiver or some test tone cd's/dvd/s like Avia. You can then adjust the sub up from there as most of us seem to run the sub a little hot by 2-5db.

Hohlraum, welcome. You can be sure that you have an excellent sub in the EP500, as you'll find when it's properly set up. The first point, as Randy mentioned, is that setting the "crossover" control on the back of the sub to the same number doesn't result in "matching", but more likely a conflict. It should be set to bypass or turned all the way up so that it doesn't get in the way of the crossover that your 5300 is doing at 80Hz.

Secondly, unless your room is very large, you may find that setting the trim even to full(as I found to my surprise with my EP500)may result in a smoother overall room response.

As has already been mentioned, you should calibrate the speaker and sub levels, and this shouldn't be done by ear. Either use the auto-calibration system of your 5300 or a separate SPL meter which you'd use to make level adjustments manually. Either way should give good results.

If you don't properly locate the sub in your room then it can sound terrible. You need to spend about $60 on tools to do this. First thing you is need a radio shack slp meter (just get the analog one for $40 since it is supposed to be more accurate than the digital anyways). Secondly, you need the Rives test cd 2.

http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/TestCD.html

Here is how you use these two things to find the best place in your room so that the bass sounds great and the sub sounds like an extension of the mains. I copied this from my post a few weeks ago.

The cd has test tracks that are corrected for the radio shack slp meter. So it is accurate below 100 Hz with the radio shack slp meter. Track 32 to 40 are the important ones to find the best location for your sub. Those tracks have the corrected 20, 25, 31.5, 40, 50 63 80 100 and 125 Hz test tones. So here is what you do: Set your sub crossover to bypass and your receiver crossover to 80 Hz. Find the 3 or 4 different locations that you want to put the sub and run the tone tests with the rives cd from tracks 32 to 40. You want to run the test tones with the phase at 0 and then 180 degrees in each location. Keep a chart of all of this information. The best location and phase will be the one with the flattest frequency response. If you have full range speakers (m60's or m80's) you could also test each location and phase with different crossovers for the front speakers as well, but only if your receiver allows for the mains to be crossed differently that the center and surrounds. For example in the first location run the test tones with 40Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz, 70Hz and 80Hz each with 0 and 180 deg on the phase setting. So that is a total of 10 runs that you have recorded in your chart for the first location. Repeat this with each possible sub location and pick out which location has the flattest frequency response in your range.

For my room I ran the tone tests for about 3 or 4 locations and it turned out that 80Hz worked out best for the crossover with my m22's. I tried 60 and 70Hz as well but the frequency response was a huge mess. The phase makes a huge difference when trying to match your mains to the sub. In one phase setting my frequency response was +/- 8 dB from 25 Hz to 160 Hz and with the other phase setting it is +/- 2dB. That is what my in room response is right now. You can't get much better that than since the tolerance on the Outlaw sub is only +/- 2dB. So all this work is definitely worth the effort.

- Nick

One point not mentioned here is that when you set the distance from your sub to your listening position, add no more than 10 feet! I know it sounds strange but you do mention that the sub kicks in too early and it may be because you have it set too far away which is not good. I discovered this important point through years of research on various forums. So give it a try. If you set the sub distance too close, it may fire too late, too far away and it will fire too early, 10 feet over what it actually is seems to work great. YMMV

I'd also guess it's being run a bit hot. It has great protection circuitry but I had to learn that sometimes you can actually get not only cleaner but stronger bass by turning it down to the magic number on the dial.

But, since it's brand new, check the simple things and make sure none of the hex bolts holding the port and amp tightly in place have not become loose. Also check the port for obstructing objects, like stuffed animals. Ya, it happened to me.

If all else fails, give Axiom a call. They will work with you to resolve the issue one way or another.

I had the same problem a month ago and I was quite despaired . I did a lot of 'crawl around on your hands and knees ' , but when I was putting the sub at the supposed right place , it was still boomy and vibrating . The sub was always in a 90 degrees plan from the front wall or the side wall or even the back wall .

But, Saturday , a miracle happened !!!
I put it at 35 degrees on the side wall and approximatively 1' in front of the M60 . No more vibrations , very punchy and beautiful . So , depending of your room , the position is crucial . So , try it everywhere and in every angle .
Good luck ...

doh! i thought i was supposed to set the crossover on the sub to the same as the cross over setting on the receiver. *goes to look at the manual online*

read the manual closely *slap self*. Its right there under the crossover section that it needs to be set ABOVE the cross over level set on the receiver ><

now i can't wait to get home and actually set it up the way it was supposed to be done in the first place. my eyes we're immediately drawn to the "M60" at the end of the cross over section of the manual. Not realizing that was referring to a high level input configuration.

I do have an SPL. I bought one years ago and never even took it out of the box. i'll give it a try. i think i'm going to re-run the 5300's calibration once i get the sub set correctly.

Do any of you guys have the M60's, VP150, QS8's and a EP500? What cross over did you set in your receiver? or did you just leave them all set to large?

Generally we set them to small. Crossovers are more of a personal preference, but the general concensus is to start at 80Hz and go from there. If you have crossovers available for each channel, things get a little more complicated--I have my M80s set to 60Hz (maybe 40?), VP100 to 100Hz, and QS4s to 120Hz, with the sub topped out at 120Hz.

I use a xover of 80Hz all the way around for movies (M80s, VP150, and QS8s with EP500 sub). I prefer this for movies and multichannel audio. But for 2 channel standard CDs, I usually prefer to put the receiver in analog bypass mode and use the M80s direct with no sub. This does depend on the recording of the CD as there are a few I prefer to listen to with all speakers and sub.

Good plan to get the crossover set right on the receiver, leave the sub xover on bypass (or as high as it will go to get it out of the way) and balance the level with the other channels. Let your receiver to the auto setup and then check it with your SPL meter to see that it is close to all the other channels from your primary listening position. Also experiment with the phase between zero and 180 and go with what sounds best to you with music. If you change the phase, repeat the auto setup and again double check with your meter.

After finishing the above steps, resist the temptation to turn it up if it doesn't sound strong enough. Give yourself a week of listening as you may find your ears will start to get used to the proper bass level. Certainly is okay to make changes that suit you, just don't rush them. Good luck and happy listening.

I know for myself, I calibrated my sub with the volume knob on the back, to 75db with an SPL meter, and 0 db correction on my reciever. This gave me the ability to + or - the sub to my liking, and always know where 75 db was (right at 0). I usually put the sub at +5db on the receiver end for movies.

well i set it to bypass last night and its still sounds bad. its better and more smooth but now it just sounds like the sub is trying to play all the audio. unfortunately my ears are incredibly sensitive to pressure changes so i need the bass to be really tight and to only enhance the lows. right now it just sounds like poo.

I guess I just need to try to recalibrate it and see what happens. This receiver's auto calibration actually lets you pick and choose which calibrations you want to perform. I'll see what it comes up with and if I like it better. If that doesn't help I'll try manually with the SPL.

I've got another concerns. this theater room is in the basement and the carpet spikes are going all the way through the carpet and pad to the concrete floor. is this going to have an undesired affect on the sound quality? should the spikes elevate the speakers (sub and fronts) so that there is a gap between the carpet and the bottom of the speaker?

That's exactly what they're supposed to do. They're to maintain solid contact with a hard surface, so the speaker isn't "floating" on a soft surface.

Again, forget about the auto calibration - it can severely mess things up. Just shut it off, grab your SPL meter, and do it manualy (sp?). Also, do not underestimate how much the location of the sub has on the sound. Play something that has a lot of repetitive bass. Walk around the room and you will find areas that have WAY too much bass, and others that have almost nill. Move the sub, and the location of these peak and null areas will change.

And as much as everyone says NOT to, if you're still not happy, set your mains to large, and set the sub crossover as low as it will go. That way, the sub is only reproducing the very lowest frequencies. Try it - you can always change it back.

H, since you didn't mention it, I'll again point out that unless your room is very large you may find that setting the trim control to half or even full may give a smoother overall response.

Your comment that the sub is "trying to play all the audio" isn't entirely clear, but may indicate that the level is simply set too high. The sub shouldn't be heard as a separate source; the impression should be that it isn't working but that the speakers are putting out more bass. The level can either be set by the auto calibration or manually with the aid of the SPL meter, although considering that the manual level setting adds a human error factor, it's unlikely to be more accurate(or even as accurate)than the job the receiver will do.

that is definitely my issue. in that the sub just feels like this separate sound source. I'm going to try the SPL setup this week.

If I use the internal test tone to calibrate what volume should I set the receiver on? -20dB? -15dB? what about a starting on sub level (I've seen 9/10 o'clock mentioned but thats just ridiculously loud for my environment) Once I do all the dB adjustments in the receiver for all the other speakers should I turn down the level on the sub directly if I have to adjust that channel excessively in the receiver to match the others?

Check your receiver manual if needed, but most will auto-set the volume for you when using internal generated tones to measure a 75dB reading on your SPL meter. Yes, 9/10 o'clock is way too loud for a EP500. I would think 7 o'clock is closer to where you need to be. Start there and if you end up being too far off in your receiver level controls, start over after adjusting the subs volume knob again.

Once all is balanced you can start experimenting over time with what sounds best to your ear regarding sub phase, crossover, and the trim settings. I would recommend you re-calibrate with your meter if you make any changes to these.

when I had my ep500 set at 9 o-clock audessey set my sub to -12db.

I changed it to about 6 or 7 o-clock and now it is at -2.5 db (that is still about 4-5 db 'hot' when compared to my other speakers)

I would try adjusting the distance of the sub in the receiever as well.

also, try flipping the phase switch on the subwoofer.

I have exactly the same speaker setup and I was very surprised at how strong the 500 is. Mine is set at around 5:30. One tool that I found very helpful was the Room EQ Wizard. Here is a link to an article of someone using to help determine subwoofer placement.

For me I had to turn my 500 90 degrees and switch the phase to 180. Could not believe the difference that made. You will also be able to see quite clearly where your trim should be set. Other than that, your spl meter is your best friend.

Thanks for the link Curved Air. I am planning on playing with rew in the near future.